Guild Wars 2

ASP.8093:

Xsorus.2507:

Or you can be a thief , In otherwords, the only reason the Guardian didn’t get the res off…Was because your class, It had nothing to do with skill…It didn’t make the fight more interesting, Your class simply allowed you to counter a crappy mechanic.

If you were another class, Chances are that thief would of gotten ressed and went back to noob spamming Heart Seeker.

Because daze and blind are somehow unique to thieves??

They’re one of few classes that have blind fields, yes..

Xsorus.2507:

You seen a lot of classes soloing large groups of people that are either A. Elementalist or B. Thief..

Now ask yourself, why do you see those 2 classes as the ones able to solo large groups of people? Could it be because they have methods of stomping people with extreme ease.

Stealth stomping in 3v1 is a death sentence for a thief unless the people they’re fighting are really really bad. Stealth stomp is not hard to counter unless you’re literally AFK and fighting by having your cat sleep on your keyboard.

People win 3+v1 because they know how to control a fight and keep downed people downed.

That aside, the downed state is another issue where people think that WvW should be their high-skill playground where they can use skill to pull off victories against 300/400 % numbers. Skill is a force multiplier, but not to that degree, and the fact that GW2 combat mechanics support numbers over talent is a good thing for WvW and the game as a whole. As much as people scream about the zerg and wanting to consistently go 10v50 and win, I don’t think they realize how barren and terrible WvW would become if that was actually the case.

Xsorus.2507:

I’ve come to that conclusion..all it does is punish/reward certain classes and makes it harder for Smaller Numbers to win a fight against greater odds.

It also is extremely annoying in 1v1’s, I basically have to kill some targets twice just to finally down them as trying to down them the regular way just waste time.

Agree. For small scale / solo players this would be awesome when fighting several players. Downed state is fine in pve and spvp, not wvw where the numbers are so unequal depending on the situation.

You shouldn’t have to kill someone twice within 5 seconds tbh.

Sansarah.3076:

You shouldn’t have to kill someone twice within 5 seconds tbh.

If you didn’t actually kill them, they aren’t dead, if your problem is with people getting back up from the dead then your problem isn’t with the downed state and you are getting double loot from it anyways.

Downstate is for nubs, enough said.

What makes you think that a small group would be able to defeat a larger group without downed state?

AoEs are still spread between moving players, so numbers still give the advantage.

Melee is still suicidal against a bigger group, as you get in range to all of their attacks while hitting only a few of them.

What changes? Being able to hit and run more often?
That’s a cowardly tactic, and I see no reason to enforce anything cowardly. There’s already enough cowards in WvW.
Cowardice should never be promoted nor rewarded in any form of PvP.
Bravery and bravado should.
The response against such a tactic would be even more cowardice, as the team with bigger numbers would have players risking less and running to the back lines to heal more often.
Thanks to the downed state, people risk more and are more aggressive, and that reduces the amount of cowardice per capita in WvW.

What WvW needs is some sort of challenge system that allows putting small groups of the same size against each other, to fight for key points.
You go to the challenge point in a team of 5 to 10, go to the entrance corresponding to your world, and once all three challenger parties are in position, the challenge starts, and the same number of people from each side is picked, and they are sent to the challenge arena to complete the objectives of the challenge while fighting the enemy teams.
The one team who wins claims the location for their world for some time until the challenge resets.
You know, like putting a small copy of the Hall of Heroes here and there.

You won’t get anything like that by removing downed state.

I play a staff ele and I’ll happily admit I’m not very good at it, but I do find that the forum whines about mist form make me want to use it more and more

I deliberately wait until loads of enemies are poised to ‘finish him’ and then hit that good old button, run 5 yards and die, laughing hysterically to myself.

I also adore running out of keeps, waiting to be downed, then mist forming back inside!!

Xsorus.2507:

ASP.8093:

Because daze and blind are somehow unique to thieves??

They’re one of few classes that have blind fields, yes..

Didn’t use the field; didn’t need the field; wasn’t running the weapon set that gives me the field.

Stomping is definitely easier for some classes than it is for others. Stomping thieves is just a bit of a special case because you need your own teleports to do it.

The main annoyance is that you may need to invest skill slots to stomp effectively in skirmishes, whereas you can get away with not doing so in 1v1 and big battles. I understand that many people won’t have the ability to force a stomp through on their bar, because they like higher-powered skills for doing other stuff. But, well, that is a tactical choice that you’ve made when choosing your build.

Make it so there is a seperate skills and traits for downed only maybe.Completely seperate from our class skills and traits something universal for all classes.Just like we have different weapon skills for underwater.Have different for WvWvW.

Downed-state is for average people who is not as skillful – that’s unfortunately the truth. I said it, and I’ll say it again, if any group with more than 3 people against 1 is losing (all 3 finished off without kiting/running away aka ele RTL), those 3 people are just BLAH… Sucks, but it’s the truth.

Yeah an ele or thief can take on large groups but that’s if they kite for a long time. I don’t see an ele going in and stomping 3 in a row without having to ride the lightning away and resetting the fight almost all the time.

Downed-state makes this game a cookie-cutter, have fun – there will be people who agree and disagree with it just like in any other discussion/argument. And in the end, it will probably not be removed.

If there were no downed state, everyone would run glass cannon builds and just burst people in WvW. That’d be pretty dull and boring. Downed states and rallying add strategy to the game. They act as mini-control points – areas that their teammates want to control so they can gain additional members. However, they leave those who are rezzing extremely vulnerable and susceptible to attack.

It’s really a good mechanic for those who like strategy. Zergs that blindly raise downed players can be pretty easy to destroy if you and a couple buddies just AoE the downed player locations until the zerg stops trying to raise people.

Kaleden.9386:

If there were no downed state, everyone would run glass cannon builds and just burst people in WvW. That’d be pretty dull and boring. Downed states and rallying add strategy to the game. They act as mini-control points – areas that their teammates want to control so they can gain additional members. However, they leave those who are rezzing extremely vulnerable and susceptible to attack.

It’s really a good mechanic for those who like strategy. Zergs that blindly raise downed players can be pretty easy to destroy if you and a couple buddies just AoE the downed player locations until the zerg stops trying to raise people.

Oh, we wouldn’t want people to run Glass Cannon in PvP grin

Well I believe it shouldn’t be removed but amount of people ressing in the same should be capped or amount healed during res should be limited for both downed and dead.

Xsorus.2507:

Or you can be a thief , In otherwords, the only reason the Guardian didn’t get the res off…Was because your class, It had nothing to do with skill…It didn’t make the fight more interesting, Your class simply allowed you to counter a crappy mechanic.

If you were another class, Chances are that thief would of gotten ressed and went back to noob spamming Heart Seeker.

I do this on my Necro with warhorn 4 or one of my fears. Mesmers can shatter their clones for daze mid-stomp IIRC, if not then just do it right before the stomp. Guardians can push back or gain stability for stomp. Warriors can knock down or also gain stability…so on and so forth. It’s not just thieves. Like he said, learn what tools your class brings to stomping and ressing and use them.

No one’s bothered to respond to the argument below yet…It’s the reason I think the downed state should/will stay.

ASP.8093:

In pitched battles, Downed state doesn’t just reward “the bigger zerg.” It rewards pushing for position. When an enemy goes down, your enemies are now stuck with a fixed point they have to control for a few seconds. It’s on you to pressure them away from that point. Removing downed state means less emphasis on movement and positioning in big battles, not more.

~

I agree with the idea of “If you’re spiked, you should stay dead,” though. Not a big deal either way, but it does add a bit of extra value to properly executing enemy players.

Yggdrasil.7940:

Downed-state : game mechanic that allow facerollers to continue facerolling when dead.

More seriously, stomp animation is way too long : it should be substancially reduced. Being immobile for 2sec + interrupt + 2sec is way too much. Yeah I can use stealth but it doesn’t help with cancel, and I have no access to the stability buff. And even if I had, why should I use a skill to be able to finish someone already dead ?

This mechanic obnoxiously favors larger number at the expense of smart gameplay.

As previously stated by others, downed-state largely favors some classes and gimp others which is another source of imbalance. Balance is already something difficult to achieve, so why complicate things further ?

If TTK is the main issue, a slight increase in HP bar should be fine.

My 2 c€nts.

Well said. In fact id prefer removal of downed state in wvw only, and +25-35% to your normal health pool upon entering the zone to compensate. Added benefit of increasing the TTK and thus less qq from bads who cant react to any form of burst.

If a 10 man group outthinks and outplays a 20 man group they might not always come out on top, but the result should be closer than it is with downed state. I run around in 5-15 man groups a lot and downed state combined with aoe caps makes it all but impossible to have epic open field battles. As it stands gw2 wvw is purely a numbers game. Also a seperate topic but siege should be more devastating than it is today. People should fear being hit by seige, and that would give the meta more depth.

Probably more than just my two cents, but anyway…

In regards to the downed state giving larger groups the advantage over smaller groups i’d have to disagree. In my personal experience I have gone up against groups larger than mine and been successful BECAUSE of the downed state (not bragging here, just using an example). Getting your teammates back on their feet is the most important thing you can do in a fight especially when out numbered. The more of your team that responds to a downed ally the faster they will get back up and the less time there is for your opponent to aoe the kitten out of you. That being said, there are a handful of abilities in this game that block in coming projectiles and aoe damage. These are really valuable skills to have in this kind of situation for obvious reasons.

But I still find it amazing how often enemies will actually just let you rez your downed teammates. Keeping your team up, while preventing enemies from rezzing and finishing their players off will quickly stack the odds in your favor. Focus your targets to down them, use knockbacks on the rezzing players, and finish their downed players quickly.

The downed state can definitely be used against you but there are ways to prevent that as well as use it to your own advantage. It just takes group coordination and access to the right skills for the given situation. Understandably, not every group is as coordinated as say a guild using voice chat for example, and not everyone understands the importance of certain skills when it comes to rezzing. But that is what usually determines who wins the fight. The team that keeps their players up the best should win. Thats how it should be, WvW is not 100% about individual player skill. Its also about team work and coordination, among other things.

All that said, I can understand why some people dont like the downed state. It can be frustrating at times but i dont necessarily agree that it should be removed entirely. Some of the professions have mediocre downed abilities while others are really exceptional, but that is a completely different discussion.

-Ein

The fact that this is probably the 100th thread on this matter, stating the same arguments and even reaching a more or less general consensus, and yet ANet has neither commented nor altered anything about the downed state is what’s really ruining my confidence in the company.

This is a crucial game-play element which could be vastly improved by simple changes but instead the prefer making random and unfounded changes to professions.

Didnt this last patch have some bit about downed state, well I guess that was probably just for sPvP, not WvW.

Downed carries bads, bads love downed, forever be a contentious discussion.

papacooldown.9482:

Also a seperate topic but siege should be more devastating than it is today. People should fear being hit by seige, and that would give the meta more depth.

Agreed. You’d think that getting hit by a cat or a treb should be more devastating than it is. Removing the aoe hit cap on seige would definitely make them more powerful with out having them 1 hit lowbies.

The downed state is the advantage a larger force has against a smaller one—which for the love of all things Holy WvW does not need more of. Smaller force can win in a battle and put a far greater number of enemy in downed state, then make one mistake with someone getting dead, then 15 people in the larger force rally, restoring the larger forces advantage despite their incompetence on the field. I’ve done it on 2 v 6 before as well. We put 4 or 5 in a downed state and one of us dies and they all rally. Larger forces do not need force multipliers.

Unfortunately, WvW has PvE and sPvP as priorities. It’s a horrible WvW mechanic. God awful mechanic.

When I am done with GW2 I will remember WvW for culling, lack of balanced participation and the downed state mechanic.

Roezz.5460:

The downed state is the advantage a larger force has against a smaller one—which for the love of all things Holy WvW does not need more of. Smaller force can win in a battle and put a far greater number of enemy in downed state, then make one mistake with someone getting dead, then 15 people in the larger force rally, restoring the larger forces advantage despite their incompetence on the field. I’ve done it on 2 v 6 before as well. We put 4 or 5 in a downed state and one of us dies and they all rally. Larger forces do not need force multipliers.

Unfortunately, WvW has PvE and sPvP as priorities. It’s a horrible WvW mechanic. God awful mechanic.

When I am done with GW2 I will remember WvW for culling, lack of balanced participation and the downed state mechanic.

I’ve had the exact opposite thing happen to me. Our group of 5 fighting a group of 7 or 8, most of us downed, got one clutch stomp, we all rallied and cleaned house. Down state can also work to the advantage of smaller groups because it works to the advantage of whoever handles the down state better. Your story alone is not a substantive argument.

People that cant win or live without greater numbers love downed state. Everyone else hates it.

Roezz.5460:

We put 4 or 5 in a downed state and one of us dies and they all rally.

In that case, seems like the answer is to reduce rallies — probably limit each death to rallying 1-2 players instead of lowering the % chance of a rally — to compensate.

I really don’t think ANET will ever listen to the community. They designed the downed state as a new and improved thing and no matter what the community say they will always love it as their own design.

If anyone from ANET is reading this I will leave you with a message:

WE HATE DOWNED STATE!

gw2 is different, if there is no down state is not gw2, accept it.. try to interrupt it or something. at least now alt f4 is no way out you still get the reward.

Bunzy.8674:

If anyone from ANET is reading this I will leave you with a message:

WE HATE DOWNED STATE!

Who gave you the right to speak for all of us? Apparently SOME of us do NOT hate this. …

Sigh.. Stop behaving like everyone agrees with you when it apparently isn’t so.

Bunzy.8674:

WE HATE DOWNED STATE!

Speak for yourself.

The general idea behind the “downed” and “finisher” mechanics is great. In most cases, I think they work exactly as intended, rewarding conserving your abilities and good use of crowd control and disruption.

There are some edge cases where things ought to be improved. But scrapping the whole mechanic? That’s crazy talk! It’d take a whole lot of strategy out of PvP.

Bunzy.8674:

I really don’t think ANET will ever listen to the community. They designed the downed state as a new and improved thing and no matter what the community say they will always love it as their own design.

If anyone from ANET is reading this I will leave you with a message:

WE HATE DOWNED STATE!

No actually we don’t. People who like playing ambush spikers in small skirmish pvp hate downed state. Everyone else realises it is an integral part of WvW. Like the guy said above, downed state is about pushing for position.

JaNordy.6149:

People that cant win or live without greater numbers love downed state. Everyone else hates it.

The people who love downed state know how to work with it. In a battle, they watch the battle lines carefully, know that kills are most effective on over extenders. When they down someone, they cover each other to stomp.
It has little baring on who’s the larger force. In fact, large forces could Roflstomp everything with greater effectiveness without it there. This is coming from a guy who usually gets on late, and is on a server that doesn’t have a developed night crew, yet faces servers that have them. So yeah, I face larger forces a lot, and our server still manages to hold its own.

Mian.1945:

Bunzy.8674:

I really don’t think ANET will ever listen to the community. They designed the downed state as a new and improved thing and no matter what the community say they will always love it as their own design.

If anyone from ANET is reading this I will leave you with a message:

WE HATE DOWNED STATE!

No actually we don’t. People who like playing ambush spikers in small skirmish pvp hate downed state. Everyone else realises it is an integral part of WvW. Like the guy said above, downed state is about pushing for position.

LOL, umm no..Down stated is not about pushing for position… Even if we removed it completely you’d want to push so you could still Res people..But ignoring that completely…Have you ever actually does Mass Combat in any other MMO besides this game?

Even without Downstate you want to be Pushing, I don’t care if you’re outnumbered 5 to 1, Push if you can..Because if you’re pushing and someone is pulling back, You cause a Domino effect in these games where people see the line break and they run to, Which results in a whole lot of Deaths.

If you push in this game, You’re going to win, when it comes to Zerg Fights, and it has nothing to do with the ability to Res.

It’s worked that way in Real Life as well, When lines broke despite people outnumbering their opponent it often meant everyone dying who was trying to run away.

And in Real Life there isn’t ressing..

Niim.9260:

Downed carries bads, bads love downed, forever be a contentious discussion.

Which is another way to say that downed state mitigates the raw effect of skill by allowing it to be combated with numbers.

When it comes to massive open-world PvP design, this is a good thing. The people who have a burning desire to see WvW become the realm of high-skill play as opposed to numbers-based play don’t understand what a terrible idea that is for WvW as a whole.

Although I will say that many of the people complaining about downed state aren’t the ones that are having their “superior skill” mitigated by it, they’re the people are are bad at manipulating the downed state. You can’t attempt to ignore an entire mechanic and then say “But really I’m skillful, this thing I’m bad at is just holding me back!”

lettucemode.3789:

Roezz.5460:

The downed state is the advantage a larger force has against a smaller one—which for the love of all things Holy WvW does not need more of. Smaller force can win in a battle and put a far greater number of enemy in downed state, then make one mistake with someone getting dead, then 15 people in the larger force rally, restoring the larger forces advantage despite their incompetence on the field. I’ve done it on 2 v 6 before as well. We put 4 or 5 in a downed state and one of us dies and they all rally. Larger forces do not need force multipliers.

Unfortunately, WvW has PvE and sPvP as priorities. It’s a horrible WvW mechanic. God awful mechanic.

When I am done with GW2 I will remember WvW for culling, lack of balanced participation and the downed state mechanic.

I’ve had the exact opposite thing happen to me. Our group of 5 fighting a group of 7 or 8, most of us downed, got one clutch stomp, we all rallied and cleaned house. Down state can also work to the advantage of smaller groups because it works to the advantage of whoever handles the down state better. Your story alone is not a substantive argument.

None of this is substantive, it’s all preference and opinion. What a weird thing to say.

If I had intended to say it was substantive, mathematical modeling or something I probably would have said that. Sometimes, even on internet forums, the obvious is just the obvious.

Niim.9260:

Didnt this last patch have some bit about downed state, well I guess that was probably just for sPvP, not WvW.

Downed carries bads, bads love downed, forever be a contentious discussion.

Bads don’t know how to manage downstate in fights where they are outnumbered. Bads don’t make sacrifices in their l33t glass cannon builds (that die ridiculously easily to balanced builds) that help them manage downstates. Bads don’t like things that challenge them.

Damn, I’m good at generalizing.

Tulisin.6945:

Although I will say that many of the people complaining about downed state aren’t the ones that are having their “superior skill” mitigated by it, they’re the people are are bad at manipulating the downed state. You can’t attempt to ignore an entire mechanic and then say “But really I’m skillful, this thing I’m bad at is just holding me back!”

Ding! Ding!

I like the downed state mechanic. It could be adjusted, but I like the overall idea.

I like how when people are bad at something, they want it removed and claim “EVERYONE WANTS IT REMOVED”.

Bunzy.8674:

I really don’t think ANET will ever listen to the community. They designed the downed state as a new and improved thing and no matter what the community say they will always love it as their own design.

If anyone from ANET is reading this I will leave you with a message:

WE HATE DOWNED STATE!

We do?

I thought I liked it?

Maybe I’m not part of the community though…who knows.

Oozo.7856:

Tulisin.6945:

Although I will say that many of the people complaining about downed state aren’t the ones that are having their “superior skill” mitigated by it, they’re the people are are bad at manipulating the downed state. You can’t attempt to ignore an entire mechanic and then say “But really I’m skillful, this thing I’m bad at is just holding me back!”

Ding! Ding!

Actually if you have a fight where you are winning 15 against 35 and and are in the process of cleaning up, then one random person who was tagging along rallies them, it’s a crappy mechanic. Especially since they will start with half health, no conditions and their short cooldowns all refreshed.

Now, introduce a 20v20, guild versus guild system with a limited time format and I will change my opinion.

The only problem I have with it is the rally mechanics. 1 mob/person dying shouldn’t raise an army of undead.

Roezz.5460:

Oozo.7856:

Tulisin.6945:

Although I will say that many of the people complaining about downed state aren’t the ones that are having their “superior skill” mitigated by it, they’re the people are are bad at manipulating the downed state. You can’t attempt to ignore an entire mechanic and then say “But really I’m skillful, this thing I’m bad at is just holding me back!”

Ding! Ding!

Actually if you have a fight where you win 15 against 35 and and are in the process of cleaning up, then one random person happens along and rallies them, it’s a crappy mechanic. Especially since they will start with half health, no conditions and their short cooldowns all refreshed.

Now, introduce a 20v20, guild versus guild system with a limited time format and I will change my opinion.

Which is why I tend to avoid putting myself in situations where some dude might come by and kill a coyote and rally downed players. The OP is a solo runner, BTW. We avoid friendly players that we don’t know like the plague. Of course, you can’t really control who is around you.

As I mentioned before, I like the overall downed state mechanic but there are things that I think should be changed.

No rallying off of PvE MOBs in WvW.
No reviving stomped players.

Rallying downed players by stomping players is up in the air for me, as I’ve used it intentionally to help my team win a fight when we were outnumbered. That one can swing both ways. It also requires you to make a choice. Should I go for a straight revive or a downed stomp? How you make that choice and execute it can have a huge impact on the fight.

IMO, there are only two problems with downed state:

1. Rezzing off mobs:

It can be sooooo irritating to have to kill someone 4 times because there happens to be a few coyotes in the area that are just randomly dying from AoE. I really don’t think that the rally mechanic was supposed to be used this way.

2. Combat-rez speed:

If there are two revivers or more, they will get the person up before your stomp goes off most of the time. This is kind of ridiculous. It makes it EXTREMELY difficult to kill someone in WvW when they are in a group that likes the “F” key. IMO, something has to be done to curb this. Either make combat rezzing interrupted when you get hit, or decrease the speed of a rez in combat.

Creslin.1758:

2. Combat-rez speed:

If there are two revivers or more, they will get the person up before your stomp goes off most of the time. This is kind of ridiculous. It makes it EXTREMELY difficult to kill someone in WvW when they are in a group that likes the “F” key. IMO, something has to be done to curb this. Either make combat rezzing interrupted when you get hit, or decrease the speed of a rez in combat.

This is something I can see as working both ways. A small group can still beat a larger group if they react faster and are built to help prevent stomps and secure revives.

For example, you can have a 3v5 and one of your guys gets bursted down by glass cannon focus. The revive speed can help you recover if you manage that situation with stability, stealth, knockbacks, etc better than the people outnumbering you.

So, I think it’s fine in a group BUT it’s a huge problem if you are soloing – which is probably where you are coming from.

Overall, decreasing the revive speed would actually hurt small groups even more versus a zerg (I think) since they are generally going to have less people on a body reviving.

Things are just going to be inherently diffucult if you are soloing. You kind of have to hope they aren’t aware enough to revive those you’ve downed and just keep trying to kill you.

Oozo.7856:

This is something I can see as working both ways. A small group can still beat a larger group if they react faster and are built to help prevent stomps and secure revives.

There’s an upper limit on that though, once you’re facing a critical numbers advantage there is almost nothing you can do vs the zerg. They have too much firepower for you to stomp reliably and downed health is too high and too easily healed for killing them with ranged damge to be an option.

And you can bump into it rather fast. Too fast imo. Even just 10 vs 40 can be damn near impossible without extending the ever living hell out of said zerg.

Something should be done. Zergs have enough advantage already. Personally I’d like to see downed health reduced to sPvP levels and diminishing returns on multiple players rezzing. Oh, and AoE caps increased.

I’d also like to see them balance the bloody downed state. That’d be nice too. I mean in the 150 hours I’ve played my warrior I’ve seen Vengeance proc twice.

In wvw the problem is not downed state the problem is that you can res dead players lets say you loose a 5on5 battle but you kill 4 of them then the last 1 will resurrect the 4 others.
and you lost nothing all was for granted and someone is wondering why players zerg?

Oozo.7856:

Creslin.1758:

2. Combat-rez speed:

If there are two revivers or more, they will get the person up before your stomp goes off most of the time. This is kind of ridiculous. It makes it EXTREMELY difficult to kill someone in WvW when they are in a group that likes the “F” key. IMO, something has to be done to curb this. Either make combat rezzing interrupted when you get hit, or decrease the speed of a rez in combat.

This is something I can see as working both ways. A small group can still beat a larger group if they react faster and are built to help prevent stomps and secure revives.

For example, you can have a 3v5 and one of your guys gets bursted down by glass cannon focus. The revive speed can help you recover if you manage that situation with stability, stealth, knockbacks, etc better than the people outnumbering you.

So, I think it’s fine in a group BUT it’s a huge problem if you are soloing – which is probably where you are coming from.

Overall, decreasing the revive speed would actually hurt small groups even more versus a zerg (I think) since they are generally going to have less people on a body reviving.

Things are just going to be inherently diffucult if you are soloing. You kind of have to hope they aren’t aware enough to revive those you’ve downed and just keep trying to kill you.

Yep it is definitely annoying soloing…but also in small group IMO. I know that I have been in a group of like 5 or so versus maybe 10-15.

We will get one downed, and I will go to mist-form stomp him, which really SHOULD be a near-guaranteed kill (against non Ele, thief, mes) considering I am sacrificing such a useful utility just to get a stomp. But since his buddies all rush to rez him, there is no way my stomp will complete before he is up…and my group is busy trying to frantically survive the outnumbered fight to get rid of the combat rezzers.

Now on the other side of the coin, if one of us goes down…if the rest of our group tries to rez, they will just get mowed down by the massive amounts of players we are up against unless they use stealth or invuln while rezzing…and those are not always available.

After all, the only reason small groups can take large amounts of players is that they are CONSTANTLY moving and using their skills to survive. If they all stop to combat rez you, the massive amounts of damage that a 10-15 person group can do will just destroy them. Obviously, there are exceptions…like if the zerg isn’t beating on the combat rezzers, but normally, this doesn’t happen.

So, in my experience, combat rezzing just favors zergs. Small groups are hurt by it just as much as soloers, and for basically the same reasons.

Roezz.5460:

Oozo.7856:

Tulisin.6945:

Although I will say that many of the people complaining about downed state aren’t the ones that are having their “superior skill” mitigated by it, they’re the people are are bad at manipulating the downed state. You can’t attempt to ignore an entire mechanic and then say “But really I’m skillful, this thing I’m bad at is just holding me back!”

Ding! Ding!

Actually if you have a fight where you are winning 15 against 35 and and are in the process of cleaning up, then one random person who was tagging along rallies them, it’s a crappy mechanic. Especially since they will start with half health, no conditions and their short cooldowns all refreshed.

Now, introduce a 20v20, guild versus guild system with a limited time format and I will change my opinion.

If you’re leaving so many downed enemies around that rally makes a difference then you’re being sloppy. When you down them, make sure you have at least someone to finish the job.

Roezz.5460:

Oozo.7856:

Tulisin.6945:

Although I will say that many of the people complaining about downed state aren’t the ones that are having their “superior skill” mitigated by it, they’re the people are are bad at manipulating the downed state. You can’t attempt to ignore an entire mechanic and then say “But really I’m skillful, this thing I’m bad at is just holding me back!”

Ding! Ding!

Actually if you have a fight where you are winning 15 against 35 and and are in the process of cleaning up, then one random person who was tagging along rallies them, it’s a crappy mechanic. Especially since they will start with half health, no conditions and their short cooldowns all refreshed.

Now, introduce a 20v20, guild versus guild system with a limited time format and I will change my opinion.

A fair enough suggestion, I’d like to see competitive mass-PvP. WvW is not competitive 20v20 mass-PvP though, WvW is, by design, usually asymmetric warfare.

And despite popular opinion, asymmetric warfare is not always about the underdog heroically holding hundred of enemies off at the pass. Asymmetric warfare is usually the smaller force getting crushed because they brought way less resources (in this case manpower) to the fight.

Creslin.1758:

Yep it is definitely annoying soloing…but also in small group IMO. I know that I have been in a group of like 5 or so versus maybe 10-15.

We will get one downed, and I will go to mist-form stomp him, which really SHOULD be a near-guaranteed kill (against non Ele, thief, mes) considering I am sacrificing such a useful utility just to get a stomp. But since his buddies all rush to rez him, there is no way my stomp will complete before he is up…and my group is busy trying to frantically survive the outnumbered fight to get rid of the combat rezzers.

Now on the other side of the coin, if one of us goes down…if the rest of our group tries to rez, they will just get mowed down by the massive amounts of players we are up against unless they use stealth or invuln while rezzing…and those are not always available.

After all, the only reason small groups can take large amounts of players is that they are CONSTANTLY moving and using their skills to survive. If they all stop to combat rez you, the massive amounts of damage that a 10-15 person group can do will just destroy them. Obviously, there are exceptions…like if the zerg isn’t beating on the combat rezzers, but normally, this doesn’t happen.

So, in my experience, combat rezzing just favors zergs. Small groups are hurt by it just as much as soloers, and for basically the same reasons.

So they did the smart thing: they couldn’t counter your stomp directly because of mist form, so they chose to rez faster than you could stomp. That sounds like smart play to me, and the system is promoting skill. If your team was too tied up to get rid of the rezzers, then either (a) you were too outnumbered to do anything about it, or (b) no one else was paying attention or you weren’t communicating well, meaning that you guys didn’t manage the down state well enough, meaning that the stomp failed.

A larger force is always going to have an advantage over the smaller force, in anything ever, period. Of course a larger force is going to have an advantage when it comes to any mechanic, including down state. The discussion here is about whether or not the down state inherently favors numbers vs. skill, that is, by design. I think enough examples have been given to show that the down state works to the advantage of whatever side handles it better, regardless of size. And eventually, the force becomes so large that no amount of skill can overcome it. That’s just the way it is.

The down state is a core mechanic, a central feature of GW2. It’s not going away, and I don’t think there are any changes that could be made that would favor smaller groups but not larger groups.

lettucemode.3789:

Creslin.1758:

Yep it is definitely annoying soloing…but also in small group IMO. I know that I have been in a group of like 5 or so versus maybe 10-15.

We will get one downed, and I will go to mist-form stomp him, which really SHOULD be a near-guaranteed kill (against non Ele, thief, mes) considering I am sacrificing such a useful utility just to get a stomp. But since his buddies all rush to rez him, there is no way my stomp will complete before he is up…and my group is busy trying to frantically survive the outnumbered fight to get rid of the combat rezzers.

Now on the other side of the coin, if one of us goes down…if the rest of our group tries to rez, they will just get mowed down by the massive amounts of players we are up against unless they use stealth or invuln while rezzing…and those are not always available.

After all, the only reason small groups can take large amounts of players is that they are CONSTANTLY moving and using their skills to survive. If they all stop to combat rez you, the massive amounts of damage that a 10-15 person group can do will just destroy them. Obviously, there are exceptions…like if the zerg isn’t beating on the combat rezzers, but normally, this doesn’t happen.

So, in my experience, combat rezzing just favors zergs. Small groups are hurt by it just as much as soloers, and for basically the same reasons.

So they did the smart thing: they couldn’t counter your stomp directly because of mist form, so they chose to rez faster than you could stomp. That sounds like smart play to me, and the system is promoting skill. If your team was too tied up to get rid of the rezzers, then either (a) you were too outnumbered to do anything about it, or (b) no one else was paying attention or you weren’t communicating well, meaning that you guys didn’t manage the down state well enough, meaning that the stomp failed.

A larger force is always going to have an advantage over the smaller force, in anything ever, period. Of course a larger force is going to have an advantage when it comes to any mechanic, including down state The discussion here is about whether or not the down state inherently favors numbers vs. skill. I think enough examples have been given to show that the down state works to the advantage of whatever side handles it better, regardless of size. And eventually, the force becomes so large that no amount of skill can overcome it. That’s just the way it is.

The down state is a core mechanic, a central feature of GW2. It’s not going away, and I don’t think there are any changes that could be made that would favor smaller groups but not larger groups.

In previous MMO’s, The advantage of Smaller Groups was their Small Foot Print, In other words, They weren’t as noticed as a Large 50 Man zerg moving through an area, and thus didn’t attract attention.

This allowed them to Flank Larger Forces and wipe large numbers of them very quickly.

Anet has decided that’s unreasonable, and instead as rewarded mindless play with AOE cap and The Downed System..If my force flanks a large force and downs a bunch, but one person dies on our team, Everyone of the people we just flanked is ressed instantly..Making the Flank we did in the first place completely pointless.

In 1v2 Setting Downed System instantly becomes a pain as well, unless you’re a class like Thieves or one with on the call stability you most likely won’t down a player before they’re ressed… This rewards some classes while punishing others…

The Fact that mobs can be used to Rally players is also stupid, even the crappy ones that die in one hit… that are scattered around the World vs World area….

Xsorus.2507:

In previous MMO’s, The advantage of Smaller Groups was their Small Foot Print, In other words, They weren’t as noticed as a Large 50 Man zerg moving through an area, and thus didn’t attract attention.

This allowed them to Flank Larger Forces and wipe large numbers of them very quickly.

Anet has decided that’s unreasonable, and instead as rewarded mindless play with AOE cap and The Downed System..If my force flanks a large force and downs a bunch, but one person dies on our team, Everyone of the people we just flanked is ressed instantly..Making the Flank we did in the first place completely pointless.

In 1v2 Setting Downed System instantly becomes a pain as well, unless you’re a class like Thieves or one with on the call stability you most likely won’t down a player before they’re ressed… This rewards some classes while punishing others…

The Fact that mobs can be used to Rally players is also stupid, even the crappy ones that die in one hit… that are scattered around the World vs World area….

Sorry, I disagree.

In the situation you describe, you down the players, but then 4 of them rez. Why didn’t you kill them after downing them? It takes 3-8 extra seconds to kill a player after downing them. If you’re in a small force, trying to take a larger force, killing players quickly is even more important than normal, and you need to take traits and utilities that will help you do this. You cannot ignore a player after he is downed, that is, ignore a huge mechanic in this game, and then complain when they all get back up because you did nothing about it.

All classes can guarantee a stomp, more or less. Thieves can blind or stealth stomp, Warriors/Guardians have stability, Mesmers can daze shatter during the stomp, Eles can mist stomp, my necro can shroudstomp and also blind, engineers can drink that one elixir, etc. etc.

All classes can prevent stomps and revives, more or less. Guardians have knockback, warriors have “Fear me!”, mesmers can daze shatter, engineers can knockback, rangers can knockback, my necro can corrupt that Stability right off of you so you can’t even guarantee stomps that way, etc. etc.

If you are running around in a small group with a GS burst warrior, a backstab thief, other such builds, etc. and aren’t prepared to do any of the things I listed above, you are doing it wrong.

I do agree with you about the mobs rallying people. I also agree with some others in here that stomping an enemy should force them to waypoint spawn.

Am I the only one who doesn’t understand the complaint about downstate in WvW? Certain downstate skills might be slightly unbalanced (mist form shouldn’t be able to go through doors!) but in general I don’t really understand the things which make people upset.

Rally mechanics get too many people up? Cap rallies to 2 or 3 per death.
Rezzing gets someone up too quickly? Reduce the rez rate.
Some down state skills are too powerful? Balance the skills.

None of those sorts of things are actual issues with downstate itself, but with specific numbers relating to tangential things.

That said, my only big concern about downstate is the change in the player’s position. It’s incredibly annoying to down someone on a wall, but because they are no prone, your attacks are obstructed and you’re unable to finish them off.