Guild Wars 2

If something is genuinely overpowered then over time it should become the dominant thing as people adopt the “if you can’t beat them, join them” strategy. Turtling, for example, was a boring as kitten strategy but after a while I’d say every guild with an ounce of organization was using it. When people realized that thieves could permanently contest supply camps, people started making thieves and every thief in my guild adopted that strategy.

Seeing as I haven’t seen an uptick on the number of eles in WvW, I can only surmise that while it is a useful ability, it doesn’t unbalance the class as a whole. In which case, tough, different classes have different advantages in different areas, this one just happens to be the eles.

murdergore.8139:

I think the skill is great as a Ele I use it quite frequently..is it OP nope only good if your near the entrance of close to big group… even if i do use it and cant rez quick enough in the castle/keep and no one is there I die..just means you are a sore loser because you didn’t get your kill. Learn how to play against it instead lets nerf it because I suck.
Just as easy how to learn to counter thieves the earth spells are our friend

Its very good as a regular interupt. And when near your own zerg or near a keep/tower its guarenteed survival.
Or, did you forget that you can also heal yourself? You dont need an ally there.

Easy fix is, you cant use the portals of towers/keeps when in the Downed-state mistform. You still have a very good survival tool, better then average. That will save your life a lot when near allies.
But you cant lololol around an enemy zerg outside of a keep, spamming aoes with no risk to yourself.

Honestly, this is a pretty pointless topic. When eles are jumping around out there in the middle of your horrible zerg, we really don’t have to go down. A lot of people will go down just because they don’t care, knowing almost nobody is competent enough to just counter your vapor form. If you stop us from being able to get back into the tower, nothing will change. We’ll still be leaping through your horrible zerg, we just won’t go down before we get back to tower. And there’s really not a thing you can do about it.

Knasher.5607:

If something is genuinely overpowered then over time it should become the dominant thing as people adopt the “if you can’t beat them, join them” strategy. Turtling, for example, was a boring as kitten strategy but after a while I’d say every guild with an ounce of organization was using it. When people realized that thieves could permanently contest supply camps, people started making thieves and every thief in my guild adopted that strategy.

Seeing as I haven’t seen an uptick on the number of eles in WvW, I can only surmise that while it is a useful ability, it doesn’t unbalance the class as a whole. In which case, tough, different classes have different advantages in different areas, this one just happens to be the eles.

Please stop being reasonable and intelligent. Its not the place for it!

Anyway, mist form is definitely not OP. It can be easily countered. Mist form doesnt move all that fast, so a guardian can pretty easily throw a wall down. It also means that ele is out of the fight for quite a long time as they rez themselves.

Basically, if you see some character jump off of the wall directly into a zerg (or out of the portal), you can probably expect one of two things. The first is they are set up to do damage and survive it (then rinse and repeat), the second is that they just dont know what they are doing. This isnt class dependent.

The solution to either situation is the same. It is also the same for any player, of any class, trying to get into a keep and defend it. It is also the same if you are pulling players off of the wall. If you have a group, have some players CC while others do damage. There are ways to do this even if the player has stability. If you have more than five players to their one, sit back and laugh as the players only damage five people max with each attack.

To add, if they are specced for it, I am pretty sure eles can do damage in vapor and mist form. Unsure if that is WAI, but you do have to use one of your traits for it either way.

Basically, with all of the issues in the game (some very serious, imo), this isnt even a concern. If it is to you, maybe focus your time and effort getting more serious problems fixed first, then move to this.

Kardiamond.6952:

@Visiroth

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/elementalist/Nerf-Ele-Downed-2-in-WvW-sieges/first

I think it’s in the page 3, I’m too lazy to check right now :P But the thread is a good discution (if you remove some troll that don’t read) about this issue.

Thanks for the link. It illustrates just how overpowered this downed state skill is very well ^^

BigTeeHunter.4913:

Kardiamond.6952:

Ele Vapor form is the BEST downstate #2 ability in the game right now. Even Anet said it during the last Q & A.

You are fighting a loosing battle trying to convince other players of this. The amount of time’s I’ve tried to rationally explain it, only to be countered with ‘But warriors can rez derpdederp’
People don’t understand, give up and wait for dev’s to nerf it!

You also missed out the (probably) most op aspect of it, which is Ele is the ONLY class that can 100% counter a stomp (ok I lie, a mesmer or theif with a lot of luck and a lot of skill can stomp first time, but its bloody hard)

Ranger,warrior,engi,guard,necro can all be countered by stability
Mesmer can be countered by an easy to perform stagger stomp
Theif can be countered by a tele-stomp
Ele can be countered by a very precise, lucky stagger stomp, followed up by a tele-stomp, so long as the ele has not broken LOS.

Seems a little bit excessive.

Granted these reasons, and the Q&A in which this was discussed, was more focussed around Spvp, yet some of these still apply to wvw

Yup… that’s why I just stopped posting. I’m sure we’ll see a nerf to it in the very near future.

Just wrong.

Ele is a squishy, he dies all the time. A typical rotation on the walls or in a large skirmish is run in close enought to cast one AOE, hopefully be able to dance back out without being killed. Usually because the major AOE spells take time, they are not instant, you often die after your primary cast before you are out of siege or enemy AOE range, the only thing that saves you is your ablitiy to mist form and run a few feet away and hide while you try to rally. All our AOE have been nerfed to attack only 5 at a time.

Now because an ELE was able to slip back into his crowd without being insta killed in order to hopefully rally without being discovered, someone wants to nerf that too. Too bad…play an ELE for a while before crying about nerfing them.

You want to take away my ele’s 3-4 second death delay? Sure, just give me teleportation and invisibility. I’d gladly take that trade off.

I’m sure any classe would trade their #2 for Elem. Any of my 80 char, necro ranger and engineer would take it without hesitation.

The mist form is the only useful downed ability an Ele has.

This thread again? Geez.

Lemme ’splain for ya:

Elementalists have the lowest HP and defense, thus, on average, they will be in downed state sooner and more often than any other class (given equal skill and gear). By the time you’ve done enough damage to down an elementalist, ANY other class would still be up and able to freely run through the door with 10-40% hp left. Immobilize will stop a downed elementalist.

Every class is different, learn about them or come complain on the forum till the game is all one class with one weapon skill, the choice is yours.

I look at is as repayment for the first month or so of the game where elementalist downed state was simply a death sentence and there were some (joking a bit, maybe) threads asking to replace our downed skills with an insta-die button so we could stop just hanging around uselessly waiting for stomps.

Want to run into zergs and (not really do anything usually) then back into your fort? Well…. do it. Any class can. You’ll need some toughness/vit and survival utilities and traits though (guaranteed those elementalists you hate have plenty, as that’s the only build we can use without going poof every 5 seconds).

The other thing is, many elementalists are running D/D these days, and you can’t do crap from a wall with that set. EVERY other class has the option to equip both ranged and melee weapons on swap. Since the closest thing to a “melee class” is also the lowest hp/def class, to be balanced, it needs skills to actually survive, downed state is part of that. If you compare elementalist downed state to necro death shroud, warrior endure pain/shield, engineer elixers, etc, you’ll see it is still inferior to most other classes (sorry rangers, you need some love).

I can accomplish the same thing on my warrior, engineer, thief and guardian. Run out, attack, run back in using class specific skills…..

Kardiamond.6952:

I’m sure any classe would trade their #2 for Elem. Any of my 80 char, necro ranger and engineer would take it without hesitation.

Sure, tell ya what, you give my elementalist your necro’s 3 friggin humongous HP bars worth of life, and I’ll give you a 3 sec immunity on downed which is only really useful if you happen to be right near a fort or zerg. Or your engineer’s 3 sec immunity at 25% hp, higher base hp/def and all the boons an elementalist can get plus retaliation (ouch!), sorry to your ranger, yeah they could use something….

Terrahero.9358:

Ive found a few ways to sort of “deal” with them, one can be done by many professions. When they go down, apply Immobilize asap. They go mistform, but it does not remove immobilize. So they cannot run inside.

So if they mist form before you land immobilize, they win. If you try to preempt them actually going downed and use your skill early, they get downed and conditions are removed so they win. I guess this is a good thing since personally on my Ele I have never been stopped from getting back through the gate.

What people also don’t seem to take into account is that a lot of times Eles using AOE are being pulled off of walls, it’s not just people using D/D melee outside.

Thrashbarg.9820:

The other thing is, many elementalists are running D/D these days, and you can’t do crap from a wall with that set. EVERY other class has the option to equip both ranged and melee weapons on swap.

Why do people keep bringing up this “point?” I travel with D/D on my Ele because with Staff you’re a sitting duck and it’s slower. I switch into Staff for AOE after I get into a tower/keep. There is nothing stopping you from doing this. I can’t fathom how people act like this isn’t possible. Run to back of tower. Combat mode ends. Equip Staff. You don’t need a swap button.

This was buffed from when elem mist form was it’s 3 skill. I wouldn’t say it’s more balanced now than it was then. At the time, I thought it was a good move, but TC has a valid point. Then again, it doesn’t bother me that much. I reserve the right to change my mind.

Heros Slayer.7081:

alright, also nerf the guardian heal skill that gives them 2 seconds of blocking. cause i can go down there do some damage and just block for 2 straight seconds when im low on health and runnin back towards the door, and the ranger trait that gives them the active signet buffs because, what class should be able to have 6 seconds of invulnerability, and the thieves ability to go invis, and the mesmers ability to blink…am i missing anything here?

On a side note, I wish people would stop acting like our ability to blink is special. Lots of classes have teleports. Off the top of my head: Thief, Guardian, and elem all have teleports.

It’s not unique to us!

Also, the guardian and elem version does damage! Blink does not!

A mesmer asking for a nerf on another class: LOL!

Nuzt.7894:

Mist form ….. ruining WvW since 12/20/12 ….

Lmao
+1 for best comment in the thread.

katniss.6735:

A mesmer asking for a nerf on another class: LOL!

Why is that funny to you? Have you yet to learn to spot a mesmer, lol. Probably.

I don’t believe I was asking for any nerf. I said it didn’t really bother me. What are you? A warrior? Take some time to stop slamming your head on things and learn some reading comp.
;)

Simply dont allow mist form to go through the portals.
Fix’t!

SteepledHat.1345:

Why is that funny to you? Have you yet to learn to spot a mesmer, lol. Probably.

I don’t believe I was asking for any nerf. I said it didn’t really bother me. What are you? A warrior? Take some time to stop slamming your head on things and learn some reading comp.
;)

Clearly my signature is beyond the realm of reading comprehension.

How to spot a mesmer: Target them. Watch the arrow above their head. So hard, bro.

Average # of times an ele gets up after being downed: 5%.
99% if they make it through a gate portal.

Nothing in the game needs a “nerf”. Other classes simply need to be raised to the same level.

Iavra.8510:

Just change mist vapor form to be unable to use portals and everything will be fine.

I agree

vapor form on ele doesnt clear condition, so any condition thats on u is still on u while vapored, including CC. that said, being downed clear conditions so it can be very hard to trap a downed ele sometimes.

though if ur in a zerg and u cant handle 1-2 ele coming down to visit while ur on a seige, u have more issues then breaking down that gate/wall, better teach the people in ur zerg how to focus fire.

vapor form also adds a downed penalty when it finishes, so there is an “artificial” cd to how often the ele can come down and visit.

ele has lowest hp and armor, we are making up for it by being able to portal through while downed. people complaining about ele being tanky simply needs to get out of their glass cannon build and swap to bunker traits, its what ele does. we survive to outlast u, if u build the same way we do, u probably survive longer.

8D ill trade any thief their active stealth while up, for me having vapor form while downed.

I play Ele and all other classes I can tell you its one of the strongest classes to survive and you dont even need toughness like other classes.

Personally I’d trade my #2 AND #3 for vapor form, even in the open! I’m a warrior, I don’t know if others agree with me there but I’d certainly like the AoE stomp prevention and return to my team – EVEN if it couldn’t go into gates.

Aberrant.6749:

It obviously needs a nerf.

On an ele you don’t care if you get downed somewhat close to a keep/tower… you’re just able to mist form, go inside and be safe to heal/rally with no worries. Ele’s jump into the face of an attacking zerg knowing they’ll be able to mist form back inside.
There needs to be more of a consequence for an ele being put in the downed state.

It should just be made so eles aren’t able to cross inside those green keep/tower portals while in mist form. Being able to mist back to your team is fine… and still a very strong downed skill. At least people can still be chased and stomped in that situation.

Its not fair that eles are the squishiest class, and its not fair that their full dps spec is garbage compared to the other classes (except ranger lololol). Life isn’t fair kiddo.

Think of it as compensation for lacking in other areas.

Fishbait.6723:

Downed mist form is only of any use, when next to a keep.
Anywhere else in WvWs & especially in normal zones, downed mist form is next to useless.

Pretty much this.

90% of the time, downed mist form is a minor irritation to the enemies that are killing the Elementalist. Hey look, he took a jump to the left. I know it doesn’t bother me much when I’m killing enemy elementalists.

I find the fact that 5 or 6 can jump off the wall, all d/d eles, run around killing flame rams, catapults, etc and build huge stacks of boons, finally be downed, then hey presto up, run back through gate (if they were even downed in the first place) whilst laughing their heads off) rinse and repeat pretty annoying.

I also find it annoying that when they are downed half way into our zerg, more times than not they can get up, whizz back into their own back lines and either heal up whilst whizzing or be healed from downed well out of range.

Having said that, the only thing that needs changing is to make mist and vapour form slow you down to half speed and the problem would be solved:-)

Kardiamond.6952:

I’m sure any classe would trade their #2 for Elem. Any of my 80 char, necro ranger and engineer would take it without hesitation.

Shoot, I’m a thief and I’d gladly give both my 2 and 3 to be able to go through tower/keep doors while downed. Don’t remove the vapor form, in fact you can even extend its duration in my opinion. Just take away its ability to go through doors and its fine.

The people that played ele from the start know that before, the mistform was on #3 downed skill with like 17 seconds of cd before u can use it (when going down first time). Since you’re an ele you pretty much never got to use the mistform skill because you’re always dead before you can use it. They changed it to #2 skill with no cd on first down.

I used mistform a LOT to go through gates and pretty much everything that should stop me in between, but I agree it’s a bit silly. Things like Guardian Shelter should stop mistformed eles.

Raincrow.1840:

Nothing in the game needs a “nerf”. Other classes simply need to be raised to the same level.

Well, suppose you gave every class vapor form as their #2 skill. That would wreck WvW, as any siege would be hugely imbalanced in favor of the defenders; it’s almost like giving defenders the ability to waypoint back to any tower/keep if they die in the vicinity.

The trade-off for cc/damage on down, is mobility. I use a potion that gives me 160 power when I fall below 50% health (not sure if that includes down state) in the hopes I can actually kill someone who’s low health, instead of having to rely on vapor form when there’s nowhere safe to go with it. Because, quite frankly, there isn’t most of the time. People see a downed D/D ele, it’s like Christmas for zergs.

If they nerf Ele downed state, i want a thief nerf as wel (both skills cloack them as it causes culling). I’ve seen downed thiefs do their share of miraculous escapes.

This is a reward for playing the most squishy profession in the game. And one of the more complex to master. And our damage isn’t amazing either, compared to thief, ranger, warrior. Our third downed skill is also bad, long cooldown (rarely able to use it) and if i use it the bleeds go away after 2 secs). Basically we got only one good downed skill, and it’s a very good one.

If this gets nerf, thief must be nerfed also (cloacking is easiest way to escape into building). So thiefs, what you say? Nerf ele vapor form AND cloacking? Or suddenly change your mind and keep both ingame?

I didnt read alot myself, but if you wanna change the ele downed skill, please change the AoE Target limit of 5, best remove it completely or increase it to 10 – 15 at least
if you dont like that, change that only a maximum of 5 individual damage sources can damage a single player and since illusions and any summons count as individual targets aswell, a mesmer with 3 clones up will take 4 of the individual damage sources already, enjoy hunting down eles then

Iavra.8510:

Just change mist vapor form to be unable to use portals and everything will be fine.

+

So much talking of stuff that doesn’t belong to this thread. It’s just about the downed mist form and not any active sigil effects or whatever while still beeing alive. Any other class that gets pulled down of the wall and is downed after that can’t return in the tower/keep while it’s senseless to do this with any ele.
Sure there were a reason why that changed the mistform from “3” in downed with 10s cd to “2” but it’s not what it should be. Just change it, as said, so they can’t enter portal while in mist. Even some of our guild mates who play ele themself as main think it’s ridiculous and would “like” to have it changed. Though there are for sure other thinking the same.

Bunzy.8674:

Lets go a step further and just get rid of downed state.

This… Please please this

Against human players, a downed player should not have any expectation of revival unless it was a very lucky, close 1v1 or they have teammates helping them (helping you rally, keeping enemies away, directly reviving you).

When a player is downed, this means they failed. Your dodges, skillbar, and execution were not sufficient to keep you alive; now you are highly vulnerable. Wanted to live? Then you shouldn’t have jumped down into the attackers, should’ve avoided the pull, or you should have used a utility to escape while you were alive, that’s how it is for every other class, squishy or not.

You had your chance to survive and you blew it, the game should force you to accept the consequences, instead of offering you a crutch.

The argument that “eles deserve a 100% escape to tower because they’re squishy” is a terrible argument, it’s like saying “downed thieves should be allowed to use teleport hack if they’re near a tower, since they’re squishy and have less AoE than eles”

100% escape chance, voidwater hahahaha. Basically you are just saying now thiefs must be nerfed. And don’t turn into thief defence now. You don’t want a prof with 100% escape chance. So cloack must be nerfed. Haha. So funny all these op thiefs, trying to nerf ele while they are op themself.

If you down a thief outside of a tower, they’re dead unless their teammates save them.

I’m glad you agree that 100% chance to escape is bad.

voidwater.2064:

If you down a thief outside of a tower, they’re dead unless their teammates save them.

I’m glad you agree that 100% chance to escape is bad.

I saw many thiefs get away in heavy arrow carted territory. Cloack = 90-95% escape. Secondly Vapor form has penalty, cloack doesnt. If you get downed, you start with lesser hp. Trust me third time you go downed you are dead. So basically you locked that player away from the combat zone. If he enters with red downed marker, he’s as good as dead. Cloack on the other hand… Thiefs can even regen while cloacked.

Secondly ele’s don’t have superior dagger storm. Dagger storm = free ride outside castle. They will hit you but to late to realize all projectiles don’t hit. And when they realize it, you can still fully move to escape.

Anet please nerf Dagger storm (sarcasm).

Neandramathal.9536:

Personally I’d trade my #2 AND #3 for vapor form, even in the open! I’m a warrior, I don’t know if others agree with me there but I’d certainly like the AoE stomp prevention and return to my team – EVEN if it couldn’t go into gates.

I’d take that trade if it came with your extra 10k hp and 1k armor at endgame.

Downed state is a part of the survival mechanic of the game, just like health pool and defense. Anyone who took at least pre-algebra in school should be able to understand a basic equation, you can’t add to one side without taking from the other.

Want the same effect as an elementalist? Run out and attack and go back in the door when you get low on health. Or use this trait: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Defy_Pain_ and just go in when your auto-immunity kicks in, you don’t even need to press “2”. Oh, right, that trait isn’t in the glass cannon warrior build….. Hey guess what? Glass cannon elementalist will die in 1/2 second getting anywhere near a zerg and still won’t match your damage….. warrior complaining about any other class’ skills is silly.

Victory.2879:

I find the fact that 5 or 6 can jump off the wall, all d/d eles, run around killing flame rams, catapults, etc and build huge stacks of boons, finally be downed, then hey presto up, run back through gate (if they were even downed in the first place) whilst laughing their heads off) rinse and repeat pretty annoying.

I also find it annoying that when they are downed half way into our zerg, more times than not they can get up, whizz back into their own back lines and either heal up whilst whizzing or be healed from downed well out of range.

Having said that, the only thing that needs changing is to make mist and vapour form slow you down to half speed and the problem would be solved:-)

Your zerg is too close to the door. Attacking a fort with enough people inside to drop 5-6 elementalists at you at once with rams is futile, those 5-6 players could be inside on carts and take out your rams faster and easier.

Catapults have a range farther than vapor form, which only lasts 3 seconds, so simply placing siege a bit behind the distance vapor form can travel will save you from these horrid elementalists. Also, teaching your zerg to focus fire and spam CC, boon removal, conditions, will destroy them before they cause much damage. I know this because I can repeatedly attack a disorganized force and escape, but when I attack anyone who is prepared, I die before I can get anywhere near a tower door.

5-6 thieves chaning shadow refuge and appearing to simultaneously dagger storm your siege will kill it faster than said group of elementalists, then shadowstep+shortbow farther away than vapor form can reach in a couple seconds. 5-6 bunker guard/warriors can simply face tank anything you can throw at them while spamming heals and aoe, an elementalist will have to run from anything like that.

I see all this complaining as “I downed U! U must die!”. You know when the best time for me to attack your siege is? When most of your team is chasing that other elementalist to the door screaming at their monitors and mashing buttons instead of defending their siege.

I’d be fine if they nerfed it so vapor form can’t pass through doors, as long as it doesn’t affect mist form also. Or better yet, give every class the same hp.def and just 2 skills, “hit with stick” and “block stick”, then all will be balanced and fair. Taking bets on how many “Stick is OP!” posts pop up on the forum……

Exactly. If ele mist form is nerfed we need trait that gives Defy pain (or mist form) at 25% health. Hell, defy pain is better then mist form, you can still damage ppl while it’s up, unlike vapor form, where you can only run. People who complain about this are silly. Every prof has certain advantages, that others will never have. Keep escaping, for ele’s is one of it. So what? Other profession have their own.

BigTeeHunter.4913:

Mesmer can be countered by an easy to perform stagger stomp

I’m not familiar with the terminology. What’s a “stagger stomp”?

ASP.8093:

BigTeeHunter.4913:

Mesmer can be countered by an easy to perform stagger stomp

I’m not familiar with the terminology. What’s a “stagger stomp”?

That’s how I get home from the pub after a long night……