Guild Wars 2

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Ashen.2907:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Ashen.2907:

Everyone who puts in the same amount of time, effort, etc earns the same number of pips.

A new player who pushes his rank to 500 will earn the same number of pips as a player who has worked his way to rank 500 over the course of a year.

Asking that new wvwers earn the same number of pips as veterans without spending the same requisite time and effort is asking that new players be given an advantage over veterans.

“I know that it took veterans 1/2/3/4 years to accumulate the prerequisites for a certain level of reward, but I want that same level of reward immediately, without putting in the time and effort”

your acting like i think the system is “unfair” i never said it was unfair, its dissuasive to players the carrot is set too high, all im asking is that they lower it.

You might want to edit your original post to more accurately reflect your intentions then because it supports my comment and contradicts yours.

the system is fair for people in wvw when you are thinking about wvw in a vaccum and ignoring the rest of the game. If the entire game was wvw then yes everyone grind gets you your ranks and you reap your rewards and thats it. But anet has mutliple game modes and a long history of doing things a certain way.

When you compare the wvw reward system to the rest of the game it gives players in wvw an unfair advantage in terms of time played over players who dont play the game mode. No other game mode rewards this type of time commitment like wvw does. its unfair and dissuasive to new players or even people who have around rank 1k, which is why i suggested it should be brought in line with other game modes and made comparable, or i suggested that other game modes should get the same system of time played = rewards (although I dont like this). it rewards straight up play time while severely handicapping those who are just starting out, for no good reason. No other game mode does this. In that sense its unfair in relation to the rest of the game.

I thought it wasnt about fair vs unfair?

BTW, in PvE thousands of hours spent in game generally gives an advantage in acquiring desireables over someone brand new to the game. Someone starting today might need months spent farming to acquire sufficient mats or currency for rewards that a veteran could buy on a momentary whim.

PvE, PvP, WvW…all include rewards based on time investment.

spvp does not mechanically award game time
pve does not mechanically award game time
wvw does mechanically award game time

all game modes award player skill to varying extents and of course if you play any game mode long enough you’ll get more rewards. But im talking about coded systems which reward you simply because your rank/playtime is high with more rewards/easier rewards, independently of what you do in each game mode or how well you play. (basically it awards you more because of your OVERALL play time, even if you are standing there)

wvw system, mechanically the system is fair in the sense that it is the same grind for everyone, the rules do not change from player to player. x number of hours = x number of rewards. But it is a bell curve as i will explain next.

wvw system is unfair in the sense that the penalties associated for new players translates to increased required time spent in order to earn the same rewards as “veteran wvwers.” this can be solved by balancing it or just letting everyone earn the same pips. That way time spent playing wvw = fair amount of rewards gained for the time put in.

If they want to retroactively go back and award everyone (which is what they said they wanted to do). They should not reward “veteran” players by giving them less grind per week to recieve rewards. This makes “veteran” rewards directly penalize newer/lower rank players because in essence that is the reward, penalizing others. The reward in essence is not being handicapped like newer players. This is detrimental and dissuasive to the wvw player base as a whole.

when you take this system and compare it to all other game modes, its completely an outlier and makes no sense to the cohesiveness that is gw2.

So you’re going to gloss by Ashen and I pointing out that you have posted that you didn’t think the system was unfair in one post but are now saying that it is?

I am now convinced that you don’t truly believe the system is unfair or dissuasive. You just want the armor as soon as possible. You really want it now, but realize that you won’t be able to convince anyone of that, so you’re compromising on that. And since you know you won’t be able to convince ANet that due to selfish reasons you want things to be done faster, you’ve come up with non-selfish reasons to spout out that you don’t really believe in but can at least put up a somewhat decent argument to support those reasons.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Chaba.5410:

Strider Pj.2193:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Shazmataz.1423:

Here’s an idea then. If you spent as much time in wvw as you do arguing you would have many ranks by now lol….get off the forum and just go play! Which is what Anet intended.

i am playing while i type on forums all while yelling at ppl in wvw as well

This is why Anet should look at his account. His stated purpose is the complain and grief. Period. Both on the forums and in game.

Oh wow, he’s spamming about this subject in game too? I feel for you guys on his same server. I’d have blocked him. Within my own guild we have civil discussions in chat and TS about this matter. There are both vets and new-to-wvw players in our guild.

all my discussions are civil, and i can see you like censorship. great good for you.

There’s nothing civil about spamming a forum and opening new threads with the same topic in order to bury everyone else’s answers to your posts with the quantity.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

spvp does not mechanically award game time
pve does not mechanically award game time
wvw does mechanically award game time

all game modes award player skill to varying extents and of course if you play any game mode long enough you’ll get more rewards. But im talking about coded systems which reward you simply because your rank/playtime is high with more rewards/easier rewards, independently of what you do in each game mode or how well you play. (basically it awards you more because of your OVERALL play time, even if you are standing there)

wvw system, mechanically the system is fair in the sense that it is the same grind for everyone, the rules do not change from player to player. x number of hours = x number of rewards. But it is a bell curve as i will explain next.

wvw system is unfair in the sense that the penalties associated for new players translates to increased required time spent in order to earn the same rewards as “veteran wvwers.” this can be solved by balancing it or just letting everyone earn the same pips. That way time spent playing wvw = fair amount of rewards gained for the time put in.

If they want to retroactively go back and award everyone (which is what they said they wanted to do). They should not reward “veteran” players by giving them less grind per week to recieve rewards. This makes “veteran” rewards directly penalize newer/lower rank players because in essence that is the reward, penalizing others. The reward in essence is not being handicapped like newer players. This is detrimental and dissuasive to the wvw player base as a whole.

when you take this system and compare it to all other game modes, its completely an outlier and makes no sense to the cohesiveness that is gw2.

The game rewards us for time spent. This is by design. Just the act of having spent the few seconds needed to log in more times than a new player means that I will have accumulated more rewards than he. Killing mobs in queensdale alone , requiring no skill, and little effort, for almost 5 years before someone who joins the game today would mean being able to access rewards faster than they can.

One of the complaints I have seen since launch is that the game does not reward skilled play sufficiently compared to rewards for just showing up and spending time.

In GW2 time > almost anything else. You may not like this, but it isnt unique to wvw and it isnt new. It just happens that this instance involves a situation where some people, who havent spent the time, want the rewards for doing so.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

PabbyGaul.9682:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

PabbyGaul.9682:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Ulion.5476:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

snip

When you bought the game did you believe you would get the legendary armor or a legendary at the start?

No but i thought 3 months to 1 year was reasonable, apparently its not.

#notyourpvecandy

wow great soundbite u really convinced me, truth is i have more candy then you’ll ever get

#lrnhow2gw2

L2p4fun

how about you don’t tell me how to play the game. Gw2 – play your own way. In my opinion anyone who dosent play for rewards its really doing it wrong? I mean isnt that the basis for wvw wanting exclusivity on these items so badly? I mean if its all playing for fun then why do you care about the prestige of the items? Sounds like your fooling yourself and your really playing for the same reasons I am.

Except you are trying to make a game mode play your way when ppl enjoy the game mode the way it is. There are game modes for candy grinders. Its pve. If you make rewards in wvw fall from the sky it becomes eotm. Long term rewards in wvw are a great strategy by anet. Its a mode that doesnt target candy grinders.

I think wvw targets team competative and social players. I dont think you are in either of those. Its okay. If yer not a team player and yoir an achievment junkie wvw really isnt about that. If you arent about getting along with others and think mostly of yourself wvw also not for you.

In wvw rewards are not unimportant they are just secondary. Primary to rewards is making enemy commander rage, beating opposing server , team, guild, roamer. Wvwers didnt stop playing because if crappy rewards they just would liked to have rewards that allowed them to build stuff they needed to be better at wvw, ascended armor ect.

My reccomendation is if you are going to wvw I would blend in first rather than try and turn it into pve/eotm, thats the last thing wvwers want.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

reddie.5861:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

You wvwers continuously attack and try to tell players who play for rewards that they are doing it wrong. Getting rewards in gw2 is end game and to discourage that type of play is ridiculous. .

because who plays a game for rewards?

getting rewards in gw2 means nice but its not needed is it?

for example give WvW the amulets sPvP has and no1 would need a single piece of gear thus no1 needs rewards and every1 is happy..
if u purely play for WvW or sPvP u shouldnt need rewards to keep u playing, u need fun if u dont have fun u shouldnt be playing to start off with.

u see, i tried PvE i ran rounds i had some website open which raid was spawning i went to all raids i got bored in 2/3 hours next day i tried again same thing.
i simply QUIT doing it cus i hated it. i couldnt care about rewards cus i didnt like it at all so i dumped my ass perma in WvW if i get bored i quit game for few months and i return but i will never return to PvE do u see my point? if i dont like something i dont do it i dont care what rewards one get which are only given to PvE players, i dont care about fancy skins etc i just wanna WvW be it with rewards or without.

oye i forgot to add i wasnt allowed in a single fractal group cus my w/e points where really low, like im going to search for some achievement points? like it shows my skill
so ye i havent seen much of pve world beside what i solo’d but none of it was interesting to me

well by your logic, nobody even needs to play the game, so we should all just not play it and don’t try to change it either because whats the point. Reward are pointless, and not needed. Fun game play is pointless and not needed. and also trying to make the game more reasonable and less grindy (which is what im doing, which results in more “fun” gameplay which is what you say is important) is also pointless.

i play for fun, and i played WvW from moment i could join and i had fun as upscaled i got my self this gear from WvW vendor and i never felt like i was any worse or better then any other WvWer out there i didnt felt like some1 with legendary was better then me i didnt even know wtf ascended gear was untill i got a drop of it.

thats how much i care about gear/rewards i just wanted fun and i had tons of it in WvW all i needed was badges of honor to gear up which was kitten EASY to get so i dunno where the grind is.

if your talking about rewards u can get now (even tho i dont even know what the new rewards are) why you complain? for example if i go into PvE and i dont get my legendary weapon within 5 days i can complain? because im a WvWer and i want legendary but i cant get all the mats/items needed within 5 days of playing PvE?

should i complain at Anet that i cant farm same mobs over and over again without having a decreased droprate? should i complain that i cant even farm mobs properly because i dont have my story line completed so i dont have enough mastery slots or points w/e it was to get all glide skills etc which is needed to get to certain spots or these jump mushrooms etc?

i mean get real go play for fun ull get what u want eventually..
i want a legendary for months or years already but i never put work into this crap and i still dont have it but one day ill get it and ill be happy with it without having to work for it. do i see it as grind cus i waited (or in your eyes grinded) years for it? no i dont because im simply having fun with what i have now if i happend to get precursor ill be happy but it wont feel like oo the grind is over because nothing will change ill still do WvW ill still do same kitten as i always did so in your eyes grind is never over.

theres a difference between you and me, i dont have goals i just wanna kill people and have fun.
you on the other hand want to have fancy things but u dont wanna work for anything you want WvW things handed to you well take em i wish all u boys who want w/e kitten u can get from WvW nowadays would get em mailed to you by Anet and never return to WvW again so all problems are solved.

cus seriously if a skin or legendary or w/e u can aquire from WvW only now is what u want pls just take it and stop whining.
cus for me it doesnt matter if your most shining Legendary decked out toon in gw2 if i see u in WvW ill still gank you(cus im thief) and ill still choose when to fight and how to fight and most likely ill win t he fight also so take all your shiny stuff and just leave the scene.

o btw even tho i play WvW from very very start i always refused to play meta toons also i didnt play on kitten server from start so im not even among high ranks think im just a gold rank, do u see me complaining even tho im a “veteran” ?

live of a thief on dead servers pre server merges was fun but not giving me any WXP now im sad think ima go slit my wrist.

reddie.5861:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

reddie.5861:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

You wvwers continuously attack and try to tell players who play for rewards that they are doing it wrong. Getting rewards in gw2 is end game and to discourage that type of play is ridiculous. .

because who plays a game for rewards?

getting rewards in gw2 means nice but its not needed is it?

for example give WvW the amulets sPvP has and no1 would need a single piece of gear thus no1 needs rewards and every1 is happy..
if u purely play for WvW or sPvP u shouldnt need rewards to keep u playing, u need fun if u dont have fun u shouldnt be playing to start off with.

u see, i tried PvE i ran rounds i had some website open which raid was spawning i went to all raids i got bored in 2/3 hours next day i tried again same thing.
i simply QUIT doing it cus i hated it. i couldnt care about rewards cus i didnt like it at all so i dumped my ass perma in WvW if i get bored i quit game for few months and i return but i will never return to PvE do u see my point? if i dont like something i dont do it i dont care what rewards one get which are only given to PvE players, i dont care about fancy skins etc i just wanna WvW be it with rewards or without.

oye i forgot to add i wasnt allowed in a single fractal group cus my w/e points where really low, like im going to search for some achievement points? like it shows my skill
so ye i havent seen much of pve world beside what i solo’d but none of it was interesting to me

well by your logic, nobody even needs to play the game, so we should all just not play it and don’t try to change it either because whats the point. Reward are pointless, and not needed. Fun game play is pointless and not needed. and also trying to make the game more reasonable and less grindy (which is what im doing, which results in more “fun” gameplay which is what you say is important) is also pointless.

i play for fun, and i played WvW from moment i could join and i had fun as upscaled i got my self this gear from WvW vendor and i never felt like i was any worse or better then any other WvWer out there i didnt felt like some1 with legendary was better then me i didnt even know wtf ascended gear was untill i got a drop of it.

thats how much i care about gear/rewards i just wanted fun and i had tons of it in WvW all i needed was badges of honor to gear up which was kitten EASY to get so i dunno where the grind is.

if your talking about rewards u can get now (even tho i dont even know what the new rewards are) why you complain? for example if i go into PvE and i dont get my legendary weapon within 5 days i can complain? because im a WvWer and i want legendary but i cant get all the mats/items needed within 5 days of playing PvE?

should i complain at Anet that i cant farm same mobs over and over again without having a decreased droprate? should i complain that i cant even farm mobs properly because i dont have my story line completed so i dont have enough mastery slots or points w/e it was to get all glide skills etc which is needed to get to certain spots or these jump mushrooms etc?

i mean get real go play for fun ull get what u want eventually..
i want a legendary for months or years already but i never put work into this crap and i still dont have it but one day ill get it and ill be happy with it without having to work for it. do i see it as grind cus i waited (or in your eyes grinded) years for it? no i dont because im simply having fun with what i have now if i happend to get precursor ill be happy but it wont feel like oo the grind is over because nothing will change ill still do WvW ill still do same kitten as i always did so in your eyes grind is never over.

theres a difference between you and me, i dont have goals i just wanna kill people and have fun.
you on the other hand want to have fancy things but u dont wanna work for anything you want WvW things handed to you well take em i wish all u boys who want w/e kitten u can get from WvW nowadays would get em mailed to you by Anet and never return to WvW again so all problems are solved.

cus seriously if a skin or legendary or w/e u can aquire from WvW only now is what u want pls just take it and stop whining.
cus for me it doesnt matter if your most shining Legendary decked out toon in gw2 if i see u in WvW ill still gank you(cus im thief) and ill still choose when to fight and how to fight and most likely ill win t he fight also so take all your shiny stuff and just leave the scene.

Where did I ever state that I want things handed to me? I never said this. 1 yr of dedicated grind is more then reasonable, you don’t need 2 yrs of grind

Seera.5916:

So you’re going to gloss by Ashen and I pointing out that you have posted that you didn’t think the system was unfair in one post but are now saying that it is?

I am now convinced that you don’t truly believe the system is unfair or dissuasive. You just want the armor as soon as possible. You really want it now, but realize that you won’t be able to convince anyone of that, so you’re compromising on that. And since you know you won’t be able to convince ANet that due to selfish reasons you want things to be done faster, you’ve come up with non-selfish reasons to spout out that you don’t really believe in but can at least put up a somewhat decent argument to support those reasons.

This is hard to articulate my position in text.

The game mode is fair in that everyone can work and get the same end result. Anyone can grind 2K hours and advance at a predictable rank. People are arguing with me if I think the mechanics themselves are flawed. The issue lies more with how the rewards are gated (grind) and what the reward is (penalizing lower lvl players). As far as the grind goes it’s fair, anyone can grind to rank 2K that is the only part that is fair. The next question though is that is r 2k too much?

The reward itself is unfair in that it penalizes newer players and essentially penalizing new players is the reward in that if ur a veteran u don’t get penalized so that’s the reward in regards to pip gain.

Grinding 2k hours to get exclusive locked rewards Is unique to wvw and a change that Is unsettling to the future of gw2. Not only is it too high and should be lowered, its not what gw2 promised us in regards to a low grind game.

If the grind is left in then other game modes need to use this system or it becomes unfair. If I spend 2K hours in pve and you don’t and we both do the same activity and play exactly the same, then I should get special rewards that you can’t get until you play 2K hours like me. In addition to this other rewards should be given to me faster requiring me to play less or to acquire materials faster due to my veteran status. I hope this is a path they don’t go down but in lieu of the new system this would award Anet’s definition of veteran players in other game modes, thus balancing the game.

If the primary reason to play wvw becomes candy then winning becomes secondary. This is well known by vets. Its called Eotm.

If you want to tie rewards to winning then guess what, already done. If you want your candy sooner then Help your server be successful and get those extra pips.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

The reward…penalizes newer players

No it doesn’t.

Being rewarded commensurate with your investment is not a penalty. Getting what you paid for (with time as the currency) is not a penalty.

Ashen.2907:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

The reward…penalizes newer players

No it doesn’t.

Being rewarded commensurate with your investment is not a penalty. Getting what you paid for (with time as the currency) is not a penalty.

2 ways of looking at it
1st) the higher my rank is, the quicker I get my pips which means quicker ticket cap and more rewards and I don’t have to do anything special to get this currently, except for all my previous hours of gameplay.

2nd) the lower my rank is the more I am penalized and have to put in many more hours to achieve the same rewards as veterans, even though I am doing the same thing as the veteran player right now and in some cases playing beter then they are.

Add in the fact that you need to gain hundreds of ranks which takes hundreds to thousands of hours of gameplay in order to influence pip gain in a meaningful way and yes I’d say that’s penalizing. Doesn’t really promote people to play well, the carrot on the stick is raised to high, endless grind results in little to no pip gain causing players to endlessly be stuck at “low rank.” So everyday/month/year they get low pips and are always considered low rank. Not very motivating.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Ashen.2907:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

The reward…penalizes newer players

No it doesn’t.

Being rewarded commensurate with your investment is not a penalty. Getting what you paid for (with time as the currency) is not a penalty.

2 ways of looking at it
1st) the higher my rank is, the quicker I get my pips which means quicker ticket cap and more rewards and I don’t have to do anything special to get this currently, except for all my previous hours of gameplay.

2nd) the lower my rank is the more I am penalized and have to put in many more hours to achieve the same rewards as veterans, even though I am doing the same thing as the veteran player right now and in some cases playing beter then they are.

Add in the fact that you need to gain hundreds of ranks which takes hundreds to thousands of hours of gameplay in order to influence pip gain in a meaningful way and yes I’d say that’s penalizing. Doesn’t really promote people to play well, the carrot on the stick is raised to high, endless grind results in little to no pip gain causing players to endlessly be stuck at “low rank.” So everyday/month/year they get low pips and are always considered low rank. Not very motivating.

How in the world are you penalized for not being a veteran?

Please tell me. And no, not getting as many PIPS as fast as a veteran is not a penalty.

Is there some debuff or condition that gets applied?
Are you not able to enter Eternal Battlegrounds?
Are you bumped to lower in the queue if a veteran queues for the same map?
Do you have to pay more tickets or Badges of Honor for things?

What is the penalty?

Seera.5916:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Ashen.2907:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

The reward…penalizes newer players

No it doesn’t.

Being rewarded commensurate with your investment is not a penalty. Getting what you paid for (with time as the currency) is not a penalty.

2 ways of looking at it
1st) the higher my rank is, the quicker I get my pips which means quicker ticket cap and more rewards and I don’t have to do anything special to get this currently, except for all my previous hours of gameplay.

2nd) the lower my rank is the more I am penalized and have to put in many more hours to achieve the same rewards as veterans, even though I am doing the same thing as the veteran player right now and in some cases playing beter then they are.

Add in the fact that you need to gain hundreds of ranks which takes hundreds to thousands of hours of gameplay in order to influence pip gain in a meaningful way and yes I’d say that’s penalizing. Doesn’t really promote people to play well, the carrot on the stick is raised to high, endless grind results in little to no pip gain causing players to endlessly be stuck at “low rank.” So everyday/month/year they get low pips and are always considered low rank. Not very motivating.

How in the world are you penalized for not being a veteran?

Please tell me. And no, not getting as many PIPS as fast as a veteran is not a penalty.

Is there some debuff or condition that gets applied?
Are you not able to enter Eternal Battlegrounds?
Are you bumped to lower in the queue if a veteran queues for the same map?
Do you have to pay more tickets or Badges of Honor for things?

What is the penalty?

Again, you are using Logic…. your arguments are wrong because they are logical.

Seera.5916:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Ashen.2907:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

The reward…penalizes newer players

No it doesn’t.

Being rewarded commensurate with your investment is not a penalty. Getting what you paid for (with time as the currency) is not a penalty.

2 ways of looking at it
1st) the higher my rank is, the quicker I get my pips which means quicker ticket cap and more rewards and I don’t have to do anything special to get this currently, except for all my previous hours of gameplay.

2nd) the lower my rank is the more I am penalized and have to put in many more hours to achieve the same rewards as veterans, even though I am doing the same thing as the veteran player right now and in some cases playing beter then they are.

Add in the fact that you need to gain hundreds of ranks which takes hundreds to thousands of hours of gameplay in order to influence pip gain in a meaningful way and yes I’d say that’s penalizing. Doesn’t really promote people to play well, the carrot on the stick is raised to high, endless grind results in little to no pip gain causing players to endlessly be stuck at “low rank.” So everyday/month/year they get low pips and are always considered low rank. Not very motivating.

How in the world are you penalized for not being a veteran?

Please tell me. And no, not getting as many PIPS as fast as a veteran is not a penalty.

Is there some debuff or condition that gets applied?
Are you not able to enter Eternal Battlegrounds?
Are you bumped to lower in the queue if a veteran queues for the same map?
Do you have to pay more tickets or Badges of Honor for things?

What is the penalty?

Penalizing is not a penalty

When someone sees someone play X number of hours and get y (veteran)
And someone else played 4xs as much to get the exact same y. That is a penalizing.

The baseline for how things are attained are always measured in how fast someone can attain something.

If the baseline for how fast a person hits ticket cap is about 10-12 hrs per week and others are required to play 30-40 hrs a week to get the same rewards, simply because they haven’t played previously, then being low rank is penalizing compared to being high rank. Thus the reward for being high rank is to not be penalized in regards to hours spent trying to earn pips and wvw rewards.

This is an argument about perception, and the perception of new players is that playing wvw at a low rank is associated with greatly reduced rewards due to an artificially implemented mechanic which rewards less for the same activities.

Why is this even open still.
Rank giving more pips is completely fair and should be kept. Those people have played the mode for this long, they simply deserve.
End of discussion.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Seera.5916:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Ashen.2907:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

The reward…penalizes newer players

No it doesn’t.

Being rewarded commensurate with your investment is not a penalty. Getting what you paid for (with time as the currency) is not a penalty.

2 ways of looking at it
1st) the higher my rank is, the quicker I get my pips which means quicker ticket cap and more rewards and I don’t have to do anything special to get this currently, except for all my previous hours of gameplay.

2nd) the lower my rank is the more I am penalized and have to put in many more hours to achieve the same rewards as veterans, even though I am doing the same thing as the veteran player right now and in some cases playing beter then they are.

Add in the fact that you need to gain hundreds of ranks which takes hundreds to thousands of hours of gameplay in order to influence pip gain in a meaningful way and yes I’d say that’s penalizing. Doesn’t really promote people to play well, the carrot on the stick is raised to high, endless grind results in little to no pip gain causing players to endlessly be stuck at “low rank.” So everyday/month/year they get low pips and are always considered low rank. Not very motivating.

How in the world are you penalized for not being a veteran?

Please tell me. And no, not getting as many PIPS as fast as a veteran is not a penalty.

Is there some debuff or condition that gets applied?
Are you not able to enter Eternal Battlegrounds?
Are you bumped to lower in the queue if a veteran queues for the same map?
Do you have to pay more tickets or Badges of Honor for things?

What is the penalty?

Penalizing is not a penalty

When someone sees someone play X number of hours and get y (veteran)
And someone else played 4xs as much to get the exact same y. That is a penalizing.

The baseline for how things are attained are always measured in how fast someone can attain something.

If the baseline for how fast a person hits ticket cap is about 10-12 hrs per week and others are required to play 30-40 hrs a week to get the same rewards, simply because they haven’t played previously, then being low rank is penalizing compared to being high rank. Thus the reward for being high rank is to not be penalized in regards to hours spent trying to earn pips and wvw rewards.

This is an argument about perception, and the perception of new players is that playing wvw at a low rank is associated with greatly reduced rewards due to an artificially implemented mechanic which rewards less for the same activities.

Penalizing = verb
Penalty = noun

They are different forms of the SAME WORD.

Definition of penalizing:

1. to impose a penalty on (someone), as for breaking a law or rule
2. to inflict a handicap or disadvantage on
3. (sport) to award a free stroke, point, or penalty against (a player or team)
4. to declare (an act) legally punishable; make subject to a penalty.

Now before you claim definition #2 as a victory:

Definition of penalty:

1. a punishment imposed or incurred for a violation of law or rule.
2. a loss, forfeiture, suffering, or the like, to which one subjects oneself by non-fulfillment of some obligation
3. something that is forfeited, as a sum of money.
4. a disadvantage imposed upon the competitors or upon one side for infraction of the rules of a game, sport, etc.
5. consequence or disadvantage attached to any action, condition, etc.

So how about you answer my question now that we’ve cleared up the definitions of the words penalizing and penalty.

Giving players bonus pips for playing WvW longer, and thus obtaining a higher rank, isn’t a penalty. It’s only a penalty if something was taken away which isn’t the case here as players don’t start with 7 pips for rank and then have it reduced based on their current rank.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Ashen.2907:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

The reward…penalizes newer players

No it doesn’t.

Being rewarded commensurate with your investment is not a penalty. Getting what you paid for (with time as the currency) is not a penalty.

2 ways of looking at it
1st) the higher my rank is, the quicker I get my pips which means quicker ticket cap and more rewards and I don’t have to do anything special to get this currently, except for all my previous hours of gameplay.

2nd) the lower my rank is the more I am penalized and have to put in many more hours to achieve the same rewards as veterans, even though I am doing the same thing as the veteran player right now and in some cases playing beter then they are.

Add in the fact that you need to gain hundreds of ranks which takes hundreds to thousands of hours of gameplay in order to influence pip gain in a meaningful way and yes I’d say that’s penalizing. Doesn’t really promote people to play well, the carrot on the stick is raised to high, endless grind results in little to no pip gain causing players to endlessly be stuck at “low rank.” So everyday/month/year they get low pips and are always considered low rank. Not very motivating.

There is a price tag associated with pretty much anything. The currency may change but the price is always there. Choosing to not pay the price does not mean that one is being penalized by not having the thing to be purchased with that price.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

The baseline for how things are attained are always measured in how fast someone can attain something.

And it took some people going on five years to get what they have now.

There’s merit to reading Sartre.

No system will satisfy all of us, because we all have varying principles about what the ideal state is. We should be having 2 different debates – 1 about the principles, and one about the execution against the principles.

Some people want the new reward system to be attainable in the same time period for someone who ignored WvW for years and someone who played it exclusively despite kitten rewards. Others want to be able to maintain their more exclusive flashy stuff for longer before every Average Joe can get it and make it not “exclusive.”

Everyone should accept that no system will satisfy everyone’s inherently conflicting principles, and that every system is going to have some fundamental unfairness to it even if we agreed on most of the principles.

Despite all the differences expressed here, I think it’s fair to say that none of us think ANET nails the balance perfectly on the first time out, so it’s fair to say there might be room for improvements.

I’m opposed to any change that eliminates the value of higher WvW ranks entirely, because I know many of us have spent countless hours in WvW with really 0 rewards – before WvW reward tracks, you could spend literally hours in this game and make VERY little progress even on WvW rank, if you were scouting towers that didn’t end up getting attacked, or spent time repairing walls after a siege, or escorting yaks… I LOST money many nights back when we paid gold to upgrade structures for the benefit of the team. I got 4 years worth of rank gain advantage on a new WvW player, sure, but I didn’t get ANY skirmish tickets for all those weeks – new players will start getting skirmish tickets while they’re leveling up to bronze and gold (and come on, it’s not that slow to get to bronze or even gold, at which point you’re only a 1-3 pips/tick behind most regular WvW players out there – not that many people are diamond rank).

That said, that doesn’t mean the advantage has to be the current system or none.

I’m platinum rank (+4) now after years of casual WvW play and my advantage over a rank 0 amounts to less than the pips you can get for judicious use of outmanned buff. That tells me the outmanned buff is probably too strong, even if not always available. That someone who is Diamond (which is pretty rare) earns 2 pips/tick more than me seems pretty reasonable.

Full-pop servers probably hate that the system incentivizes people to semiafk and goose participation while taking map slots from more active players.

Maybe the advantage in pips-per-tick is too high a percentage of the overall pips – maybe baseline pips for all should go up 1 or 2, but keep the current rank gaps. Maybe the skirmish tickets should skew more to the lower end, so that the advantage in what is reasonably attainable is smaller, even if it does exist. Or maybe that shouldn’t slow down at the top, but you shouldn’t even expose the top chests to people until they ARE a certain rank (making lower tier players focus more on getting THEIR max rewards, after which their focus should on ranking up instead of maintaining participation over time with minimal activity). There are hundreds of ways to adjust the mechanics, all which will have some fundamental unfairness to it.

New WvW players need to respect that the advantage for long-devoted WvW players should exist as one of those principles (though again, we can debate the right principles), and Veterans reaping the advantage shouldn’t dismiss charges that the execution is flawed to reflexively defend ANET’s first real appreciation for your devotion to the game mode.

Radjan Majere.4208:

No system will satisfy all of us, because we all have varying principles about what the ideal state is. We should be having 2 different debates – 1 about the principles, and one about the execution against the principles.

Some people want the new reward system to be attainable in the same time period for someone who ignored WvW for years and someone who played it exclusively despite kitten rewards. Others want to be able to maintain their more exclusive flashy stuff for longer before every Average Joe can get it and make it not “exclusive.”

Everyone should accept that no system will satisfy everyone’s inherently conflicting principles, and that every system is going to have some fundamental unfairness to it even if we agreed on most of the principles.

Despite all the differences expressed here, I think it’s fair to say that none of us think ANET nails the balance perfectly on the first time out, so it’s fair to say there might be room for improvements.

I’m opposed to any change that eliminates the value of higher WvW ranks entirely, because I know many of us have spent countless hours in WvW with really 0 rewards – before WvW reward tracks, you could spend literally hours in this game and make VERY little progress even on WvW rank, if you were scouting towers that didn’t end up getting attacked, or spent time repairing walls after a siege, or escorting yaks… I LOST money many nights back when we paid gold to upgrade structures for the benefit of the team. I got 4 years worth of rank gain advantage on a new WvW player, sure, but I didn’t get ANY skirmish tickets for all those weeks – new players will start getting skirmish tickets while they’re leveling up to bronze and gold (and come on, it’s not that slow to get to bronze or even gold, at which point you’re only a 1-3 pips/tick behind most regular WvW players out there – not that many people are diamond rank).

That said, that doesn’t mean the advantage has to be the current system or none.

I’m platinum rank (+4) now after years of casual WvW play and my advantage over a rank 0 amounts to less than the pips you can get for judicious use of outmanned buff. That tells me the outmanned buff is probably too strong, even if not always available. That someone who is Diamond (which is pretty rare) earns 2 pips/tick more than me seems pretty reasonable.

Full-pop servers probably hate that the system incentivizes people to semiafk and goose participation while taking map slots from more active players.

Maybe the advantage in pips-per-tick is too high a percentage of the overall pips – maybe baseline pips for all should go up 1 or 2, but keep the current rank gaps. Maybe the skirmish tickets should skew more to the lower end, so that the advantage in what is reasonably attainable is smaller, even if it does exist. Or maybe that shouldn’t slow down at the top, but you shouldn’t even expose the top chests to people until they ARE a certain rank (making lower tier players focus more on getting THEIR max rewards, after which their focus should on ranking up instead of maintaining participation over time with minimal activity). There are hundreds of ways to adjust the mechanics, all which will have some fundamental unfairness to it.

New WvW players need to respect that the advantage for long-devoted WvW players should exist as one of those principles (though again, we can debate the right principles), and Veterans reaping the advantage shouldn’t dismiss charges that the execution is flawed to reflexively defend ANET’s first real appreciation for your devotion to the game mode.

Well said.

Radjan Majere.4208:

No system will satisfy all of us, because we all have varying principles about what the ideal state is. We should be having 2 different debates – 1 about the principles, and one about the execution against the principles.

Some people want the new reward system to be attainable in the same time period for someone who ignored WvW for years and someone who played it exclusively despite kitten rewards. Others want to be able to maintain their more exclusive flashy stuff for longer before every Average Joe can get it and make it not “exclusive.”

Everyone should accept that no system will satisfy everyone’s inherently conflicting principles, and that every system is going to have some fundamental unfairness to it even if we agreed on most of the principles.

Despite all the differences expressed here, I think it’s fair to say that none of us think ANET nails the balance perfectly on the first time out, so it’s fair to say there might be room for improvements.

I’m opposed to any change that eliminates the value of higher WvW ranks entirely, because I know many of us have spent countless hours in WvW with really 0 rewards – before WvW reward tracks, you could spend literally hours in this game and make VERY little progress even on WvW rank, if you were scouting towers that didn’t end up getting attacked, or spent time repairing walls after a siege, or escorting yaks… I LOST money many nights back when we paid gold to upgrade structures for the benefit of the team. I got 4 years worth of rank gain advantage on a new WvW player, sure, but I didn’t get ANY skirmish tickets for all those weeks – new players will start getting skirmish tickets while they’re leveling up to bronze and gold (and come on, it’s not that slow to get to bronze or even gold, at which point you’re only a 1-3 pips/tick behind most regular WvW players out there – not that many people are diamond rank).

That said, that doesn’t mean the advantage has to be the current system or none.

I’m platinum rank (+4) now after years of casual WvW play and my advantage over a rank 0 amounts to less than the pips you can get for judicious use of outmanned buff. That tells me the outmanned buff is probably too strong, even if not always available. That someone who is Diamond (which is pretty rare) earns 2 pips/tick more than me seems pretty reasonable.

Full-pop servers probably hate that the system incentivizes people to semiafk and goose participation while taking map slots from more active players.

Maybe the advantage in pips-per-tick is too high a percentage of the overall pips – maybe baseline pips for all should go up 1 or 2, but keep the current rank gaps. Maybe the skirmish tickets should skew more to the lower end, so that the advantage in what is reasonably attainable is smaller, even if it does exist. Or maybe that shouldn’t slow down at the top, but you shouldn’t even expose the top chests to people until they ARE a certain rank (making lower tier players focus more on getting THEIR max rewards, after which their focus should on ranking up instead of maintaining participation over time with minimal activity). There are hundreds of ways to adjust the mechanics, all which will have some fundamental unfairness to it.

New WvW players need to respect that the advantage for long-devoted WvW players should exist as one of those principles (though again, we can debate the right principles), and Veterans reaping the advantage shouldn’t dismiss charges that the execution is flawed to reflexively defend ANET’s first real appreciation for your devotion to the game mode.

Very well done.

As a beginner (well, bronze), I absolutely agree that your experience has value. That you get WvW-focused rewards faster only make sense. Just like having pve raid experience will get you kills faster or being properly geared for fractals.
I also agree that the issue lies with the balancing of this advantage, or rather, the disadvantage it puts on the players who are genuinely wanting to get into that mode.

Lots of veterans welcome new players since it brings some activity into their mode, but a vocal minority – be it in game or here – are hostile to them because of the reason why they are joining. There’s also new players that are expecting Anet to take back all the given advantages… both of these behaviors won’t lead anywhere.

All I’m asking from these people is to be open to suggestions to make the experience better for everyone. You don’t have to agree to everything, but you can certainly put your pride aside for a second, quit with the sarcasm such as “pvers want insta rewards” or “your experience doesn’t mean quaggan” and understand that as of right now, getting even to silver rewards you with very few tickets, and still require a very high amount of dedication, giving a strong incentive to either “farm” the remaining hours or just give up on a rather interesting mode.

The suggestion I’ve been defending since the beginning was never really commented or debunked:
Don’t give more pips to high rank, give them discounts on tickets (or/and other stuff). The difference is psychological, You’re effectively given the same reward for the same amount of hours put during a specific week (more or less given whose server is winning) but high ranked still get stuff faster, and new players can choose to bust their * off to catch up or spend more tickets for the same stuff.
It also partially solves the afk problem, since high ranking will have a significant impact on their rewards in the long term.

I would say the fundamental difference between my opinion in the reward system compared to most others, is that I dislike grind and feel that all grind should be negated by skill. Most wvw vets seem to love grind. And they associate grind as prestige and in some cases as substitution for skill. These 2 viewpoints cannot be reconciled.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

I would say the fundamental difference between my opinion in the reward system compared to most others, is that I dislike grind and feel that all grind should be negated by skill. Most wvw vets seem to love grind. And they associate grind as prestige and in some cases as substitution for skill. These 2 viewpoints cannot be reconciled.

It’s only a grind if you want it and want it now.

If you aren’t in a rush to get the armor, then it’s not a grind. Something you’re failing to at least show you agree on.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

I would say the fundamental difference between my opinion in the reward system compared to most others, is that I dislike grind and feel that all grind should be negated by skill. Most wvw vets seem to love grind. And they associate grind as prestige and in some cases as substitution for skill. These 2 viewpoints cannot be reconciled.

Why not get skillful at grinding and learn how to rank up super quick?

Ashen.2907:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

spvp does not mechanically award game time
pve does not mechanically award game time
wvw does mechanically award game time

all game modes award player skill to varying extents and of course if you play any game mode long enough you’ll get more rewards. But im talking about coded systems which reward you simply because your rank/playtime is high with more rewards/easier rewards, independently of what you do in each game mode or how well you play. (basically it awards you more because of your OVERALL play time, even if you are standing there)

wvw system, mechanically the system is fair in the sense that it is the same grind for everyone, the rules do not change from player to player. x number of hours = x number of rewards. But it is a bell curve as i will explain next.

wvw system is unfair in the sense that the penalties associated for new players translates to increased required time spent in order to earn the same rewards as “veteran wvwers.” this can be solved by balancing it or just letting everyone earn the same pips. That way time spent playing wvw = fair amount of rewards gained for the time put in.

If they want to retroactively go back and award everyone (which is what they said they wanted to do). They should not reward “veteran” players by giving them less grind per week to recieve rewards. This makes “veteran” rewards directly penalize newer/lower rank players because in essence that is the reward, penalizing others. The reward in essence is not being handicapped like newer players. This is detrimental and dissuasive to the wvw player base as a whole.

when you take this system and compare it to all other game modes, its completely an outlier and makes no sense to the cohesiveness that is gw2.

The game rewards us for time spent. This is by design. Just the act of having spent the few seconds needed to log in more times than a new player means that I will have accumulated more rewards than he. Killing mobs in queensdale alone , requiring no skill, and little effort, for almost 5 years before someone who joins the game today would mean being able to access rewards faster than they can.

One of the complaints I have seen since launch is that the game does not reward skilled play sufficiently compared to rewards for just showing up and spending time.

In GW2 time > almost anything else. You may not like this, but it isnt unique to wvw and it isnt new. It just happens that this instance involves a situation where some people, who havent spent the time, want the rewards for doing so.

So you’re saying a crappy players in PVP and PVE (T4 Fotms & Raids) will be rewarded nicely regardless of skills, but instead on time they spend as is the case in zerg fiesta? Some of you WvW players make no god kitten sense. In PvE, if you’re good you can progress through your collection and weekly rewards at a faster rate. It’s not based on higher rank as WvW is, but skill regardless if you’re new or not. PVP it’s the same thing, you acquire more pips not based on how many times you lvled up passed dragon rank, but on how well you actually do in matches. It’s perfectly fine to have rewards for higher ranked zerg fiesta players, but stop acting like a system that rewards people for being high ranking and greatly handicaps lower ranks, and not skillful play as is the case in every other game mode is reasonable. I don’t have to spend a inordinate amount of time in PVP or PVE Raids and T4s to be rewarded in a reasonable consistent manner on actual skillful play, but I do in WvW, which makes no sense.

Musica Arcaida.4685:

Ashen.2907:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

spvp does not mechanically award game time
pve does not mechanically award game time
wvw does mechanically award game time

all game modes award player skill to varying extents and of course if you play any game mode long enough you’ll get more rewards. But im talking about coded systems which reward you simply because your rank/playtime is high with more rewards/easier rewards, independently of what you do in each game mode or how well you play. (basically it awards you more because of your OVERALL play time, even if you are standing there)

wvw system, mechanically the system is fair in the sense that it is the same grind for everyone, the rules do not change from player to player. x number of hours = x number of rewards. But it is a bell curve as i will explain next.

wvw system is unfair in the sense that the penalties associated for new players translates to increased required time spent in order to earn the same rewards as “veteran wvwers.” this can be solved by balancing it or just letting everyone earn the same pips. That way time spent playing wvw = fair amount of rewards gained for the time put in.

If they want to retroactively go back and award everyone (which is what they said they wanted to do). They should not reward “veteran” players by giving them less grind per week to recieve rewards. This makes “veteran” rewards directly penalize newer/lower rank players because in essence that is the reward, penalizing others. The reward in essence is not being handicapped like newer players. This is detrimental and dissuasive to the wvw player base as a whole.

when you take this system and compare it to all other game modes, its completely an outlier and makes no sense to the cohesiveness that is gw2.

The game rewards us for time spent. This is by design. Just the act of having spent the few seconds needed to log in more times than a new player means that I will have accumulated more rewards than he. Killing mobs in queensdale alone , requiring no skill, and little effort, for almost 5 years before someone who joins the game today would mean being able to access rewards faster than they can.

One of the complaints I have seen since launch is that the game does not reward skilled play sufficiently compared to rewards for just showing up and spending time.

In GW2 time > almost anything else. You may not like this, but it isnt unique to wvw and it isnt new. It just happens that this instance involves a situation where some people, who havent spent the time, want the rewards for doing so.

So you’re saying a crappy players in PVP and PVE (T4 Fotms & Raids) will be rewarded nicely regardless of skills, but instead on time they spend as is the case in zerg fiesta? Some of you WvW players make no god kitten sense. In PvE, if you’re good you can progress through your collection and weekly rewards at a faster rate. It’s not based on higher rank as WvW is, but skill regardless if you’re new or not. PVP it’s the same thing, you acquire more pips not based on how many times you lvled up passed dragon rank, but on how well you actually do in matches. It’s perfectly fine to have rewards for higher ranked zerg fiesta players, but stop acting like a system that rewards people for being high ranking and greatly handicaps lower ranks, and not skillful play as is the case in every other game mode is reasonable. I don’t have to spend a inordinate amount of time in PVP or PVE Raids and T4s to be rewarded in a reasonable consistent manner on actual skillful play, but I do in WvW, which makes no sense.

You might want to reread my post because it doesnt say what you claim.

How much skillful play does the largest component content of the game, open world PvE, require?

I am primary a PvE player. Rank 265 reached yesterday.

Ashen.2907:

Musica Arcaida.4685:

Ashen.2907:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

spvp does not mechanically award game time
pve does not mechanically award game time
wvw does mechanically award game time

all game modes award player skill to varying extents and of course if you play any game mode long enough you’ll get more rewards. But im talking about coded systems which reward you simply because your rank/playtime is high with more rewards/easier rewards, independently of what you do in each game mode or how well you play. (basically it awards you more because of your OVERALL play time, even if you are standing there)

wvw system, mechanically the system is fair in the sense that it is the same grind for everyone, the rules do not change from player to player. x number of hours = x number of rewards. But it is a bell curve as i will explain next.

wvw system is unfair in the sense that the penalties associated for new players translates to increased required time spent in order to earn the same rewards as “veteran wvwers.” this can be solved by balancing it or just letting everyone earn the same pips. That way time spent playing wvw = fair amount of rewards gained for the time put in.

If they want to retroactively go back and award everyone (which is what they said they wanted to do). They should not reward “veteran” players by giving them less grind per week to recieve rewards. This makes “veteran” rewards directly penalize newer/lower rank players because in essence that is the reward, penalizing others. The reward in essence is not being handicapped like newer players. This is detrimental and dissuasive to the wvw player base as a whole.

when you take this system and compare it to all other game modes, its completely an outlier and makes no sense to the cohesiveness that is gw2.

The game rewards us for time spent. This is by design. Just the act of having spent the few seconds needed to log in more times than a new player means that I will have accumulated more rewards than he. Killing mobs in queensdale alone , requiring no skill, and little effort, for almost 5 years before someone who joins the game today would mean being able to access rewards faster than they can.

One of the complaints I have seen since launch is that the game does not reward skilled play sufficiently compared to rewards for just showing up and spending time.

In GW2 time > almost anything else. You may not like this, but it isnt unique to wvw and it isnt new. It just happens that this instance involves a situation where some people, who havent spent the time, want the rewards for doing so.

So you’re saying a crappy players in PVP and PVE (T4 Fotms & Raids) will be rewarded nicely regardless of skills, but instead on time they spend as is the case in zerg fiesta? Some of you WvW players make no god kitten sense. In PvE, if you’re good you can progress through your collection and weekly rewards at a faster rate. It’s not based on higher rank as WvW is, but skill regardless if you’re new or not. PVP it’s the same thing, you acquire more pips not based on how many times you lvled up passed dragon rank, but on how well you actually do in matches. It’s perfectly fine to have rewards for higher ranked zerg fiesta players, but stop acting like a system that rewards people for being high ranking and greatly handicaps lower ranks, and not skillful play as is the case in every other game mode is reasonable. I don’t have to spend a inordinate amount of time in PVP or PVE Raids and T4s to be rewarded in a reasonable consistent manner on actual skillful play, but I do in WvW, which makes no sense.

You might want to reread my post because it doesnt say what you claim.

How much skillful play does the largest component content of the game, open world PvE, require?

I am primary a PvE player. Rank 265 reached yesterday.

You said, “How much skillful play does the largest component content of the game, open world PvE, require”

So getting raid kills, and being able to have items interact with raid instances that need to be clear is open world now? You do realize to get through those collections you need to actually get through the raid encounters besides the offshoot objectives?

It’s actually somewhat similar to fractals dailies. If I do t4 fractal dailies, I get all the daily chests. Because I’ve been playing them long enough to have the AR and know the mechanics.

Should high level fractals players have to grind out all the low level dailies, too?

Sarika.3756:

It’s actually somewhat similar to fractals dailies. If I do t4 fractal dailies, I get all the daily chests. Because I’ve been playing them long enough to have the AR and know the mechanics.

Should high level fractals players have to grind out all the low level dailies, too?

Horrible comparison. ANYONE that does T4 fotms gets rewarded with lower tier chests, the only thing needed is AR, which is gold gated NOT SKILL gated. Even if we were to take what you said on face value, you can progress fast enough to get enough AR to do T4s to gain all chests, again by skillful play. The same can’t be said for WvW newer players spending a inordinate amount of time to get awarded reasonably.

Musica Arcaida.4685:

Sarika.3756:

It’s actually somewhat similar to fractals dailies. If I do t4 fractal dailies, I get all the daily chests. Because I’ve been playing them long enough to have the AR and know the mechanics.

Should high level fractals players have to grind out all the low level dailies, too?

Horrible comparison. ANYONE that does T4 fotms gets rewarded with lower tier chests, the only thing needed is AR, which is gold gated NOT SKILL gated. Even if we were to take what you said on face value, you can progress fast enough to get enough AR to do T4s to gain all chests, again by skillful play. The same can’t be said for WvW newer players spending a inordinate amount of time to get awarded reasonably.

So long term goals are now unreasonable?

It’s not like the first reward given out by the tickets requires rank 2000. There are definitely items that can be purchased while progressing up through the ranks.

Seera.5916:

Musica Arcaida.4685:

Sarika.3756:

It’s actually somewhat similar to fractals dailies. If I do t4 fractal dailies, I get all the daily chests. Because I’ve been playing them long enough to have the AR and know the mechanics.

Should high level fractals players have to grind out all the low level dailies, too?

Horrible comparison. ANYONE that does T4 fotms gets rewarded with lower tier chests, the only thing needed is AR, which is gold gated NOT SKILL gated. Even if we were to take what you said on face value, you can progress fast enough to get enough AR to do T4s to gain all chests, again by skillful play. The same can’t be said for WvW newer players spending a inordinate amount of time to get awarded reasonably.

So long term goals are now unreasonable?

It’s not like the first reward given out by the tickets requires rank 2000. There are definitely items that can be purchased while progressing up through the ranks.

The tickets are timegated behind a large amount of hours you need to do per week in order to cap on the timegated reward, the first few tiers reward very, very little. It doesn’t compare to fractals. The only timegated currency in fractals are pages and you don’t need to be “high rank” in fractals to obtain them every day (and it doesn’t even take an hour/day).
The timegate with the pvp backpiece is 3 matches a day. Again, something that can be done in less than a hour.

When you venture on the field of comparisons with other modes, it’s very easy to demonstrate that there is no other mode currently that requires such a time investment for a timegated reward. PVP is definitely not putting that much pressure on you, you have 2 months to complete the pips, and even then, the currency (ascended shard) is repeatable.
The closest comparison would be legendary insight and raids, without skill/experience (call it what you want) you can spend a lot of hours if you want them all, but with proper experience/carrying, it takes you only a few hours / a week. The big difference is that since pips are passive only, no matter how good, how active or how invested you are, you are not rewarded according to what you do, but what you did or did not do before.
It always needs to be repeated but giving special advantages to high ranks is absolutely fine/normal, but a week of gaming in 2017 should be rewarded with the rewards of 2017, and not proactively requiring time from the previous years.

Last thing… let’s not forget… it is actually faster for players joining raids now to get their LI (13/week), where it used to be only 3, 6, and 9 LI a week.
With WvW it’s the other way around, players joining now have a much harder time.

Long term goals are reasonable, so long as there no punitive timegate. Gating a reward to a rank is a much better design than gating it being a limited per week currency. There can be a timegated currency but it needs to be there to keep players active everyday, not to have them grind for it.

I would like to see alot more rank gated stuff for the pip track else ill have everything within a year. Pip track will basically be ui clutter for most after a year. What about the other 5k ranks above 2k. I think its unfair we even have a pip track it should just be rank gated.

I’d be fine with just rank gated, even as a low ranked myself.
If T3 armor turned out to be a precursor to legendary like I think it will, it would probably be rank gated pretty high.

However a full year of 175 tokens is not enough to get all T2 weapons, T3 armors and backpack. It’s closer to 2 years.

EDIT: Please note that this post is NOT only a complaint about people receiving rewards in an unreasonable timeframe, it’s to show and make people understand what a negative impact the system has on the behaviour and play style of other people!

Hello everybody! :)
There have been many posts regarding the recent WvW patch stating various opinions already, but none of them I’ve read stated my opinion a 100%. World vs. World – as it is now – has so many grave problems that I think it’s necessary to change the Pip system as it is working now to not ruin the WvW experience in the fullrun again.
Don’t get me wrong: The system in general is a great idea and a good way to make WvW profitable, but the acquisition of pips is severely flawed.

What it does at the moment:

• Punishing WvW interested and active people with lower ranks or people on servers with lower population. They are obtaining far lesser pips than higher rank people to an extent that playing in WvW is not profitable at all for them.
• Promoting jumping from one map to another to achieve the Outnumbered buff, because it is the only way to make noticeable progress for these people.
• Promoting playing solo-handedly and not helping out where help would be needed, because the punishment for switching maps and helping out is far too great.

What it should do:

• Promoting ACTIVE play. This can be achieved by reducing the pips for the Outnumbered buff to 1, but giving out more pips to people who actively contribute in trying to win the current skirmish, adding them up to a decent amount without the Outnumbered buff active. This includes:
  
  • obtaining different objectives
  • killing enemy players
  • supporting to obtain higher tier objectives by defending them and escorting dolyaks
  • preventing the enemy to obtain higher tier objectives by killing dolyaks and turning objectives over again
  • scouting, which could be handled similar to the participation system for WvW tracks
  
  Capturing higher objectives like keeps or castles should reward more pips than obtaining lower ones like guards, ruins or camps or escorting and killing dolyaks, but still be profitable overall. Also capturing higher tier objectives should reward more pips than obtaining lower tier ones.
  
  I think it is important to support both: bigger zergs with commanders AND roamer/small groups, because they are equally important for the full WvW experience and obtaining higher scores.

• I think it is okay for people, who have been dedicated to WvW for years now, to be able to obtain pips faster than others who don’t have as many ranks. To have them rewarded in some way is nice. What is NOT okay though is overlooking all the other players who hardly get any rewards without playing the whole day with the Outnumbered buff active, even though they enjoy the gamemode and really want to make an impact in achieving the highest score possible.

With all that said: All I want WvW to be is a fun and enjoyable place, to play together with others as a team, actually discuss tactics throughout maps and try making all the Borderlands ours whilst feeling rewarded for it. At least this is how I feel it should be, but it is impossible with the system in its current state and never will be, if the pips stay the way they are now.

Edge of the Mists:

I know my opinion regarding this is far away from what the majority of players think, because there have been problems in the past I am well aware of. For me EotM is still a full-fledged WvW map though and should also reward pips by active playing. The map is not much different from the Borderlands. It’s just a different WvW mode in which different servers fight combined against others. The idea is the same though! People capture different objectives to obtain points for their colour and fight enemy players to prevent them from doing so. I’m okay with running in a zerg there, but I’ve also tried roaming in Edge of the Mists with friends before and it worked out totally fine. It’s just that people see EotM as a brainless Karma/Level farm because of its past, but it doesn’t have to be. It depends on people what to make of this map. And if the acquisition of pips feels easier or faster than on the other WvW maps, there’s always the possibility to correct that in lowering the amount people gain to balance it out like the participation system. And here again: Certain objectives should reward higher pips than others.

For comparison:

What do other WvW maps have what EotM doesn’t?

• dolyaks, higher tier objectives and tactivators
• Stonemist Castle in the Eternal Battlegrounds
• camps which give out supplies like reactors do in EotM
• shrines and ruins

What does EotM have what other WvW maps don’t?

• Altar/Observatory/Statuary/Shrine/Bell Tower/Forge/Wurm Tunnel/Airport/Workshop with some of them giving out unique items, buffs, skills and transformations helping achieving your goals. Champions are also more unique like the ones on the Desert Borderlands.
• reactors which give out supplies like camps do
• There are bridges on this map you can destroy to actually hinder enemies. ~cough, cough~

I really hope the system gets changed one day in a way it’s fair for everybody enjoying the game mode. I know there are many different opinions about it and they are as vast as people themselves. You can totally disagree with me or agree with me partly, but please don’t be offended if this is not how you imagine WvW to be. It’s just my opinion and how I think it would reduce the current problems with the new pip system.

I hope you’ll have a great day/a good night wherever you are.
Kagome

Musica Arcaida.4685:

Seera.5916:

Musica Arcaida.4685:

Sarika.3756:

It’s actually somewhat similar to fractals dailies. If I do t4 fractal dailies, I get all the daily chests. Because I’ve been playing them long enough to have the AR and know the mechanics.

Should high level fractals players have to grind out all the low level dailies, too?

Horrible comparison. ANYONE that does T4 fotms gets rewarded with lower tier chests, the only thing needed is AR, which is gold gated NOT SKILL gated. Even if we were to take what you said on face value, you can progress fast enough to get enough AR to do T4s to gain all chests, again by skillful play. The same can’t be said for WvW newer players spending a inordinate amount of time to get awarded reasonably.

So long term goals are now unreasonable?

It’s not like the first reward given out by the tickets requires rank 2000. There are definitely items that can be purchased while progressing up through the ranks.

You said, “So long term goals are now unreasonable?”.

Are you that obtuse to recognize that the time needed to get the max amount of weekly tickets (To simply get T2 Armor NOT T3 or T4 or Mistforge weapons), or even a good amount of them requires newer players to almost no life? You think that’s reasonable to try forcing people to no life a casual game? Where is that a feature in Raids,T4 Fotms, or PvP? In those game modes again, depending on your skill you can expedite the process of rewards weekly regardless if you’re new or not. There’s long term goals but not to the extent of almost 40hrs+ being required to make a reasonable amount of progress; as is the case in WvW.

I think it’s reasonable for ANet to have things that require 2+ years to get by casuals.

Those things are called long term goals.

Casuals (I am myself a casual) should accept that they will rarely get things done at the same pace as hard core players. And in this instance casual vs hard core is purely a time definition. And that some things will fall out of the realm of what they wish to spend their limited time on. And that that is perfectly fine and acceptable.

No. I think the system is fine. Yes something should be done about those who afk to collect rewards. Other than that I feel the system is more than fair.

No. give the current system 6 months. Then look at its problems. Nothing in the current system is harmful, nor are the skins integral in ANY game mode. They are shinies.

EOTM is NOT WvW. Anet has stated this. The mechanics are different, and it isn’t world versus world.

Unless they change EOTM to count towards war score, and limit it to only the currently matched worlds, then it isn’t a World vs World map.

Similarities are not enough.

I am kind of tired of saying the current system punishes people. There is NOTHING that punishes people for playing. Not gaining shinies isn’t punishing. It isn’t even penalizing.

It IS limiting. And that IS OK.

Seera.5916:

I think it’s reasonable for ANet to have things that require 2+ years to get by casuals.

I’ve been playing since pre-launch and still don’t have all the Order, Temple, Dungeon, and Racial skins unlocked. I will eventually…

Seera.5916:

Musica Arcaida.4685:

Seera.5916:

Musica Arcaida.4685:

Sarika.3756:

It’s actually somewhat similar to fractals dailies. If I do t4 fractal dailies, I get all the daily chests. Because I’ve been playing them long enough to have the AR and know the mechanics.

Should high level fractals players have to grind out all the low level dailies, too?

Horrible comparison. ANYONE that does T4 fotms gets rewarded with lower tier chests, the only thing needed is AR, which is gold gated NOT SKILL gated. Even if we were to take what you said on face value, you can progress fast enough to get enough AR to do T4s to gain all chests, again by skillful play. The same can’t be said for WvW newer players spending a inordinate amount of time to get awarded reasonably.

So long term goals are now unreasonable?

It’s not like the first reward given out by the tickets requires rank 2000. There are definitely items that can be purchased while progressing up through the ranks.

You said, “So long term goals are now unreasonable?”.

Are you that obtuse to recognize that the time needed to get the max amount of weekly tickets (To simply get T2 Armor NOT T3 or T4 or Mistforge weapons), or even a good amount of them requires newer players to almost no life? You think that’s reasonable to try forcing people to no life a casual game? Where is that a feature in Raids,T4 Fotms, or PvP? In those game modes again, depending on your skill you can expedite the process of rewards weekly regardless if you’re new or not. There’s long term goals but not to the extent of almost 40hrs+ being required to make a reasonable amount of progress; as is the case in WvW.

I think it’s reasonable for ANet to have things that require 2+ years to get by casuals.

Those things are called long term goals.

Casuals (I am myself a casual) should accept that they will rarely get things done at the same pace as hard core players. And in this instance casual vs hard core is purely a time definition. And that some things will fall out of the realm of what they wish to spend their limited time on. And that that is perfectly fine and acceptable.

Learn the difference between long term goals, and spending 40hrs+ a week to get enough tickets to buy one T2 boots. Where in any other game mode is that a feature of? There have been people in this thread that nicely pointed out the differences with every other game mode to this unreasonable amount time required weekly in WvW for tickets. In T4s Fotms, want all the rewards, spend about 100 to200g on AR and be skilled with a good group, and you’ll progress through your rewards and collection for back-pieces quickly based on your skill. In PVP, you want the backpiece (a long term goal), where that’s actual skill than a zerg bukkakke, you get awarded pips and go through the ranks accordingly based on how well you do, which eventually leads to the backpiece in two seasons or three. Same thing is the case with raids, all long term goals that are achievable at a reasonable pace that’s expedited with skill. Again, show me where in any other game mode does it require for newer players to spend 40+ hrs to get max amount of currencies for some rewards?

No. The system doesnt punish it only rewards ppl. It just does so to varying degrees. Ppl afk for outnumbered buff. If it was a smaller reward less would do it amd encourage active play. Eotm is a wvw lobby. I should earn pips in pvp lobby or LA maybe I get LIs?

Musica Arcaida.4685:

Seera.5916:

Musica Arcaida.4685:

Seera.5916:

Musica Arcaida.4685:

Sarika.3756:

It’s actually somewhat similar to fractals dailies. If I do t4 fractal dailies, I get all the daily chests. Because I’ve been playing them long enough to have the AR and know the mechanics.

Should high level fractals players have to grind out all the low level dailies, too?

Horrible comparison. ANYONE that does T4 fotms gets rewarded with lower tier chests, the only thing needed is AR, which is gold gated NOT SKILL gated. Even if we were to take what you said on face value, you can progress fast enough to get enough AR to do T4s to gain all chests, again by skillful play. The same can’t be said for WvW newer players spending a inordinate amount of time to get awarded reasonably.

So long term goals are now unreasonable?

It’s not like the first reward given out by the tickets requires rank 2000. There are definitely items that can be purchased while progressing up through the ranks.

You said, “So long term goals are now unreasonable?”.

Are you that obtuse to recognize that the time needed to get the max amount of weekly tickets (To simply get T2 Armor NOT T3 or T4 or Mistforge weapons), or even a good amount of them requires newer players to almost no life? You think that’s reasonable to try forcing people to no life a casual game? Where is that a feature in Raids,T4 Fotms, or PvP? In those game modes again, depending on your skill you can expedite the process of rewards weekly regardless if you’re new or not. There’s long term goals but not to the extent of almost 40hrs+ being required to make a reasonable amount of progress; as is the case in WvW.

I think it’s reasonable for ANet to have things that require 2+ years to get by casuals.

Those things are called long term goals.

Casuals (I am myself a casual) should accept that they will rarely get things done at the same pace as hard core players. And in this instance casual vs hard core is purely a time definition. And that some things will fall out of the realm of what they wish to spend their limited time on. And that that is perfectly fine and acceptable.

Learn the difference between long term goals, and spending 40hrs+ a week to get enough tickets to buy one T2 boots. Where in any other game mode is that a feature of? There have been people in this thread that nicely pointed out the differences with every other game mode to this unreasonable amount time required weekly in WvW for tickets. In T4s Fotms, want all the rewards, spend about 100 to200g on AR and be skilled with a good group, and you’ll progress through your rewards and collection for back-pieces quickly based on your skill. In PVP, you want the backpiece (a long term goal), where that’s actual skill than a zerg bukkakke, you get awarded pips and go through the ranks accordingly based on how well you do, which eventually leads to the backpiece in two seasons or three. Same thing is the case with raids, all long term goals that are achievable at a reasonable pace that’s expedited with skill. Again, show me where in any other game mode does it require for newer players to spend 40+ hrs to get max amount of currencies for some rewards?

And it’s not required. There is no advantage given in gameplay by having any of these items. So…. it IS a long term goal. You forget to mention as you rank up, it gets easier. By the time you get to 2K, you will likely have the tickets.

One of the main individuals asking for rank requirement noted he made 120 ranks in a week with boosters. That is 14-15 weeks starting from stop. Sustainable? Not likely, but again, if the shiny is THAT desirable, then grind it. If not? It’s a long term goal.

Musica Arcaida.4685:

Seera.5916:

Musica Arcaida.4685:

Seera.5916:

Musica Arcaida.4685:

Sarika.3756:

It’s actually somewhat similar to fractals dailies. If I do t4 fractal dailies, I get all the daily chests. Because I’ve been playing them long enough to have the AR and know the mechanics.

Should high level fractals players have to grind out all the low level dailies, too?

Horrible comparison. ANYONE that does T4 fotms gets rewarded with lower tier chests, the only thing needed is AR, which is gold gated NOT SKILL gated. Even if we were to take what you said on face value, you can progress fast enough to get enough AR to do T4s to gain all chests, again by skillful play. The same can’t be said for WvW newer players spending a inordinate amount of time to get awarded reasonably.

So long term goals are now unreasonable?

It’s not like the first reward given out by the tickets requires rank 2000. There are definitely items that can be purchased while progressing up through the ranks.

You said, “So long term goals are now unreasonable?”.

Are you that obtuse to recognize that the time needed to get the max amount of weekly tickets (To simply get T2 Armor NOT T3 or T4 or Mistforge weapons), or even a good amount of them requires newer players to almost no life? You think that’s reasonable to try forcing people to no life a casual game? Where is that a feature in Raids,T4 Fotms, or PvP? In those game modes again, depending on your skill you can expedite the process of rewards weekly regardless if you’re new or not. There’s long term goals but not to the extent of almost 40hrs+ being required to make a reasonable amount of progress; as is the case in WvW.

I think it’s reasonable for ANet to have things that require 2+ years to get by casuals.

Those things are called long term goals.

Casuals (I am myself a casual) should accept that they will rarely get things done at the same pace as hard core players. And in this instance casual vs hard core is purely a time definition. And that some things will fall out of the realm of what they wish to spend their limited time on. And that that is perfectly fine and acceptable.

Learn the difference between long term goals, and spending 40hrs+ a week to get enough tickets to buy one T2 boots. Where in any other game mode is that a feature of? There have been people in this thread that nicely pointed out the differences with every other game mode to this unreasonable amount time required weekly in WvW for tickets. In T4s Fotms, want all the rewards, spend about 100 to200g on AR and be skilled with a good group, and you’ll progress through your rewards and collection for back-pieces quickly based on your skill. In PVP, you want the backpiece (a long term goal), where that’s actual skill than a zerg bukkakke, you get awarded pips and go through the ranks accordingly based on how well you do, which eventually leads to the backpiece in two seasons or three. Same thing is the case with raids, all long term goals that are achievable at a reasonable pace that’s expedited with skill. Again, show me where in any other game mode does it require for newer players to spend 40+ hrs to get max amount of currencies for some rewards?

It would appear that you do not enjoy the game mode as you stated ‘Zerg bukkake’. If it is that painful to you, and the skins are exclusive to this game mode, then maybe the skins aren’t for you?

Malerian.8435:

No. I think the system is fine. Yes something should be done about those who afk to collect rewards. Other than that I feel the system is more than fair.

Hello! Can you please explain why you think the system in its current state is fair? I’d love to hear the reasoning behind it. People just say it is good how it is, but are not giving any reasonable explanations for me to understand. Thanks.

Strider Pj.2193:

No. give the current system 6 months. Then look at its problems. Nothing in the current system is harmful, nor are the skins integral in ANY game mode. They are shinies.

I am kind of tired of saying the current system punishes people. There is NOTHING that punishes people for playing. Not gaining shinies isn’t punishing. It isn’t even penalizing.

I’ve stated above enough why the system in it’s current state is severely harmful and punishing for players. I’ve also never mentioned anything about skins or other specific “shinies”. I’d love for people to really have a look at my post and answer and discuss about it accordingly. Thank you! x3

Musica Arcaida.4685:

Seera.5916:

Musica Arcaida.4685:

Seera.5916:

Musica Arcaida.4685:

Sarika.3756:

It’s actually somewhat similar to fractals dailies. If I do t4 fractal dailies, I get all the daily chests. Because I’ve been playing them long enough to have the AR and know the mechanics.

Should high level fractals players have to grind out all the low level dailies, too?

Horrible comparison. ANYONE that does T4 fotms gets rewarded with lower tier chests, the only thing needed is AR, which is gold gated NOT SKILL gated. Even if we were to take what you said on face value, you can progress fast enough to get enough AR to do T4s to gain all chests, again by skillful play. The same can’t be said for WvW newer players spending a inordinate amount of time to get awarded reasonably.

So long term goals are now unreasonable?

It’s not like the first reward given out by the tickets requires rank 2000. There are definitely items that can be purchased while progressing up through the ranks.

You said, “So long term goals are now unreasonable?”.

Are you that obtuse to recognize that the time needed to get the max amount of weekly tickets (To simply get T2 Armor NOT T3 or T4 or Mistforge weapons), or even a good amount of them requires newer players to almost no life? You think that’s reasonable to try forcing people to no life a casual game? Where is that a feature in Raids,T4 Fotms, or PvP? In those game modes again, depending on your skill you can expedite the process of rewards weekly regardless if you’re new or not. There’s long term goals but not to the extent of almost 40hrs+ being required to make a reasonable amount of progress; as is the case in WvW.

I think it’s reasonable for ANet to have things that require 2+ years to get by casuals.

Those things are called long term goals.

Casuals (I am myself a casual) should accept that they will rarely get things done at the same pace as hard core players. And in this instance casual vs hard core is purely a time definition. And that some things will fall out of the realm of what they wish to spend their limited time on. And that that is perfectly fine and acceptable.

Learn the difference between long term goals, and spending 40hrs+ a week to get enough tickets to buy one T2 boots. Where in any other game mode is that a feature of? There have been people in this thread that nicely pointed out the differences with every other game mode to this unreasonable amount time required weekly in WvW for tickets. In T4s Fotms, want all the rewards, spend about 100 to200g on AR and be skilled with a good group, and you’ll progress through your rewards and collection for back-pieces quickly based on your skill. In PVP, you want the backpiece (a long term goal), where that’s actual skill than a zerg bukkakke, you get awarded pips and go through the ranks accordingly based on how well you do, which eventually leads to the backpiece in two seasons or three. Same thing is the case with raids, all long term goals that are achievable at a reasonable pace that’s expedited with skill. Again, show me where in any other game mode does it require for newer players to spend 40+ hrs to get max amount of currencies for some rewards?

Learn to accept what being a casual is.

Not everything in this game has to be obtained by casuals playing at their usual pace in 1 year or less.

Really, there’s a requirement to play for 40+ hours to even be eligible to get the rewards? I think you’re stretching here by continuously mentioning that. That is only required to max out the PIPS earned per week. Guess what? It’s not required to do that in order to get the rewards. So let’s stop talking about that as if it’s a requirement.

And what, are they supposed to say: sorry those of you at high ranks, you can’t get any rewards specific to your rank, it’s too much of a time commitment for those who play casually? Is that what you’re really trying to suggest?

Kagome.1250:

Malerian.8435:

No. I think the system is fine. Yes something should be done about those who afk to collect rewards. Other than that I feel the system is more than fair.

Hello! Can you please explain why you think the system in its current state is fair? I’d love to hear the reasoning behind it. People just say it is good how it is, but are not giving any reasonable explanations for me to understand. Thanks.

Strider Pj.2193:

No. give the current system 6 months. Then look at its problems. Nothing in the current system is harmful, nor are the skins integral in ANY game mode. They are shinies.

I am kind of tired of saying the current system punishes people. There is NOTHING that punishes people for playing. Not gaining shinies isn’t punishing. It isn’t even penalizing.

I’ve stated above enough why the system in it’s current state is severely harmful and punishing for players. I’ve also never mentioned anything about skins or other specific “shinies”. I’d love for people to really have a look at my post and answer and discuss about it accordingly. Thank you! x3

I am sorry, you state that you have stated above enough. I disagree.

You also haven’t addressed that it isn’t a punishment. There IS no penalty. There are limitations. Which in my opinion are fine. We disagree on the limitations being fine.

I find the limitations fair.

You also didn’t address my statements regarding EOTM, which, again, is NOT World vs World. Until it becomes that, it should not (and Anet has stated as such) get the same rewards as a world vs world specific skin.

As to your claim of ‘punishments’: what are the punishments? What do they lose? What game play featured and advantages do they miss out on? Ranking allows you additional assistance in WvW. It should be integral in any system.

Quite frankly, the limitations (which by any definition is what they are) encourage you to be a more contributing member to the world va world format by increasing your WvW attributes.

Musica Arcaida.4685:

In PVP, you want the backpiece (a long term goal), where that’s actual skill than a zerg bukkakke, you get awarded pips and go through the ranks accordingly based on how well you do, which eventually leads to the backpiece in two seasons or three.

Let’s not be misleading though since zerging occurs in sPvP too. Zerging is more likely to result in a loss though because sPvP’s teams are of equal size make zerging inefficient.

Additionally sPvP teams that are well-matched in skill but suffer from a DC can end up losing due to the same population imbalances that are normal for a WvW match. Teams that are outnumbered in sPvP but higher in skill than the other team can still manage to pull off a win.

It would be foolish to say the same thing doesn’t happen in WvW when a smaller group of higher skill can pick apart a lower skilled but more numerous zerg or force the enemy zerging to be inefficient by out-rotating just because it is more difficult to notice. WvW matches are far longer and team sizes, skill, and composition constantly fluctuates through-out the match unlike in sPvP.

Why does wvw have to pvp/ pve. Its a different game mode that targets different types of players the reward system SHOULD be different. We have played on same maps for 2-5 yrs. Assaulted same structures. Have we really been “grinding” wvw this whole time? I dont pve because pve does feel like grinding. I have skipped every cutscene and every mob feels the same. Thats why I wvw, because the enemy is ever evolving and changing, size tactics, and composition. To me, wvw has never been a grind nor have I ever gone into wvw like “god why must I do this over and over again its soooo boring”. In pve you need carrots because the grind is really boring. The reward system targets people who play the same maps for 2-5 years and rarely leave. What pve map you still playing 5 years later that is still “fun” to you? Its a longterm game mode and needsnlong term rewards.