Guild Wars 2

Shazmataz.1423:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

would be nice to get ticket cap every week without having to spend 30-40 hrs per week in wvw (like a full time job), which mostly involves standing around most of the time – pvd + standing in circles.

figure out another way to reward wvw vets. Don’t make high rank reward = lower ranks detriment. (essentially having a high rank is a lifting of the low rank “pip handicap,” baseline.)

30-40hrs?? Gob smacked. I suggest that you don’t know how to wvw or you exaggerate much.

I run up to 15 hrs /week with my wvw guild, which does NOT involve pvd or standing in circles and easily finish diamond with a couple of days to spare on a T4 server!! We seek out fights, take objectives to provoke epic fights getting lots of kills and bags plus have alot of fun on the way.

Either the reward is worth your time or its not, same as pvp or pve. It seems to me that the reward is not worth your time so decide and move on….please.

Given your answer it looks like you dont know how the current pip system works. All you’re describing is how to be active… so you’re talking about ranking. Pips don’t require anything else than t3 participation.

1450 pips
1 pip : 120 hours
2 pips : 60 hours
3 pips : 40 hours
4 pips : 30 hours
5 pips : 24 hours
6 pips : 20 hours
7 pips : 17 hours

Average for new players : 1 pip + 1 commitment = 60 hours.
If they’re lucky: 3 or 4 pips: 30 or 40 hours.

Yes there is outnumbered but its unreliable and some people here complain about people abusing it. We’re talking finding a middle ground.

And you’re right, being active is the key. All the more arguments to rank gate and not timegate with tickets.

Deihnyx.6318:

This discussion about why people are playing has been hijacking serious arguments for days now. IT’S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

As dedicated WvWers, it very much is our business why other people choose to play in our preferred game mode because their reason for being there influences how they play, and how they play affects all of us. The last thing WvW needs is players who only want a shiny and don’t give a rip about the mode itself or the other people around them who are trying to play it seriously.

We’ve seen it plenty of times with the tournaments and the Gift of Battle reward track. I’m sure I’m not the only veteran WvWer with stories about kill/objective trading, noobs using precious sups to repair walls for achievements/participation while the keep is under assault, refusing to defend for achievement-related reasons, filling chat with vitriol because someone didn’t give them a turn on the cata for credit, the bandwagoning — this is what happens when shiny-hunters come into WvW. They take up space, they don’t get on TS, they don’t listen to commanders, they don’t cooperate with the rest of the team, and some of them don’t even read chat. WvW needs players like this about as much as it needs another tournament right now (i.e., not at all).

That’s why I’m mostly satisfied with how ANet implemented the reward system, because it immediately discourages this kind of hit-it-and-quit-it reward hunting (a long-standing issue in this game). And let’s be real: anyone who looks at these requirements and says “lol nah, /leavethemists” was never going to stick around in the first place. The people who do stay to work on the rewards and contribute to our communities are the ones we want, and we’re happy to have them.

I have no doubt that they’ll adjust the pip system at some point in the future (hopefully not for 3-6 months at least), but I don’t think they should make it easier or faster — just more consistent (fluctuating between 3 and 10 pips for reasons outside of your immediate control can be understandably irksome).

Deihnyx.6318:

Ranks are fine. Timegated tickets are not. There is no issues with asking high ranks (at least for most people here) but timegated wvw tickets is not fine..

There has to be some limitation on ticket- and reward-acquisition. If not time-gating, it would be something else. We already know from the Guild Chat episode about the patch that they intended most of these rewards to take time to acquire and balanced the system with that in mind. While I wouldn’t mind seeing one or two alternate methods for acquiring tickets (from repeating Diamond or as a weekly drop from the WvW JP chests, for instance), I think it’s healthier for the game mode if tickets remain time-gated. Another option might be adding/increasing rank requirements on all of the rewards, but I expect that wouldn’t go over any better than the current system.

Also, it’s worth noting that they never intended everyone to hit Diamond 6 every single week, but offered that as a goal for the most hardcore players. Casual players are expected to reach Gold, maybe Platinum, which can be done in a few hours over a weekend or just an hour or two an evening during the week (most dedicated WvWers easily exceed this, however). There’s no problem here unless, for some reason, you’re in a hurry.

Deihnyx.6318:

Or if you think WvW is more worth of people time to justify the huge timegates, again prove it.

Whether or not anything is worth one’s time is purely subjective. Legendary armor, for instance, is not worth my time, so I have no intention of investing my time into acquiring it. Some players felt otherwise and spent over two years preparing for the day it was released before they even knew what it looked like. It’s not up to anyone else who plays WvW to convince someone that it’s worth their time to earn the rewards. Decide for yourself and either get to work or move on.

For a mode that runs 24/7/365, time-gating of rewards is essential or it will end up just like the stupid tournaments where shiny hunters flooded in, wreaked havoc for a few weeks, and abandoned it again (until recently). Since ticket-gain is easier to control and adjust than rank-gain, I think they should leave the system as-is for now.

somewhatobsessed.6309:

As dedicated WvWers, it very much is our business why other people choose to play in our preferred game mode because their reason for being there influences how they play, and how they play affects all of us. The last thing WvW needs is players who only want a shiny and don’t give a rip about the mode itself or the other people around them who are trying to play it seriously.

I do understand that if you mainly play WvW, it is essential for you that the newcomers aren’t ruining the mode. If your only intention is to preserve that mode you life and its qualities, I can only agree. However the last few pages have been filled with prejudice that is just very toxic to new players. This has become such a plague that every new comment assumes that new players want insta rewards.

somewhatobsessed.6309:

We’ve seen it plenty of times with the tournaments and the Gift of Battle reward track. I’m sure I’m not the only veteran WvWer with stories about kill/objective trading, noobs using precious sups to repair walls for achievements/participation while the keep is under assault, refusing to defend for achievement-related reasons, filling chat with vitriol because someone didn’t give them a turn on the cata for credit, the bandwagoning — this is what happens when shiny-hunters come into WvW. They take up space, they don’t get on TS, they don’t listen to commanders, they don’t cooperate with the rest of the team, and some of them don’t even read chat. WvW needs players like this about as much as it needs another tournament right now (i.e., not at all).

There is a very interesting post from Turk (I believe) who describe their experience about veterans afking for pip rewards. My personal experience (mid bronze) is that commanders and their group in general tend to hang out a while at camp after they’re done. It’s not even for pips, they’re just used to do that. And until now it didn’t really seem to be that much of a big deal, so long as they don’t do it during prime time.
But now, because of this new reward system, and maybe a little because of the outnumbered bonus, people are all over the place calling names and pointing fingers to whoever they feel will be responsible for breaking their mode. My opinion is that there will be good and bad new/casual players, just as there are good and bad veterans. You can’t assume someone is undesirable simply because his long term goal is to get rewards.

somewhatobsessed.6309:

That’s why I’m mostly satisfied with how ANet implemented the reward system, because it immediately discourages this kind of hit-it-and-quit-it reward hunting (a long-standing issue in this game). And let’s be real: anyone who looks at these requirements and says “lol nah, /leavethemists” was never going to stick around in the first place. The people who do stay to work on the rewards and contribute to our communities are the ones we want, and we’re happy to have them.

No matter what, a new player will need to rank if they want the armor. They will need 2k, a rank that will require devotion to the mode. With this rank alone, you have some insurance to leave out people who don’t really care. There’s always be a small portion that will still go through all the farming to get what they want, even though they aren’t having fun. No matter the restriction, you won’t stop those people.
But by using timegating tokens and locking them behind quite a lot of hours every week, you are also leaving out players who could be interested by this mode, who could gear up for it (pve players, raiders, would likely have the money) but are seeing a conscient effort from Anet to not give them a fair start.

somewhatobsessed.6309:

There has to be some limitation on ticket- and reward-acquisition. If not time-gating, it would be something else. We already know from the Guild Chat episode about the patch that they intended most of these rewards to take time to acquire and balanced the system with that in mind. While I wouldn’t mind seeing one or two alternate methods for acquiring tickets (from repeating Diamond or as a weekly drop from the WvW JP chests, for instance), I think it’s healthier for the game mode if tickets remain time-gated. Another option might be adding/increasing rank requirements on all of the rewards, but I expect that wouldn’t go over any better than the current system.

There has to be limitation, and this limitation is ranking. Ranking can be done at your own speed. It is a “fair” value in the sense that 100 hours spent ranking in a week = 100 hours spent ranking in a month. They both lead to the same result (provided you’re playing similarly of course) but the players are in full control of the speed of their progress.
With a timegated currency in its current implementation, this isn’t the case. Let’s say we have two players of the same rank (doesnt matter which one).
Player 1 will play 100 hours in 2 months.
Player 2 will play 100 hours in 2 weeks.
At the end of the count, both players are the same rank, have spent the same time playing the mode, player 2 will have more than double rewards because they will have reached diamond, while the first player will probably be at silver or gold, which aren’t worth a lot.
And that, my friend, is what all this fuss is about. A timegated currency should be very limited in investment. It’s made to ensure that you play on a regular basis, every day.
That is what PVP does with asking you to do 3 match a day for 60 days, and what fractals wants you to do with pages. Both are doable in an hour a day. And that’s what is reasonable to ask for WvW.

However, for the chests that rewards with goodies for WvW, there is no problem with giving a large advantage to veterans, because there are alternative ways to get them and there are no per week limit.

Henry.5713:

I like the idea of a reward curve. All though, one could argue whether it should be this steep and unrewarding for new players.
In any case, a change to help new players is fine as long as this doesn’t turn into another handout. Any reward in this game is just a matter of time if you like the content you play. But people want stuff handed to them without a need to even play and they refuse to understand why unique rewards exist. This is just “easy mode raids” all over again.

I think the initial pip-wall is a good deterent for ppl that dont like the game mode. But it starys going up pretty quick over the weeks.

Attached chart:)

somewhatobsessed.6309:

I’m sure I’m not the only veteran WvWer with stories about kill/objective trading, noobs using precious sups to repair walls for achievements/participation while the keep is under assault, refusing to defend for achievement-related reasons, filling chat with vitriol because someone didn’t give them a turn on the cata for credit, the bandwagoning — this is what happens when shiny-hunters come into WvW. They take up space, they don’t get on TS, they don’t listen to commanders, they don’t cooperate with the rest of the team, and some of them don’t even read chat. WvW needs players like this about as much as it needs another tournament right now (i.e., not at all).

You just described half the WvW playerbase from before this update. Our WvW players are far from perfect, and if you’ll open your eyes, the people you’ve seen fight with you for years are the ones who you will mostly see being AFK in spawn.

I looked at the chart and one thing caught my eye. “1.5 ranks per hour”. Players who are active can gain far more than 1.5 per hour. I’ve earned 3 ranks in just one 5-10 min fight. But if players just do the minimum effort I can see 1.5 making sense.

Heibi.4251:

But if players just do the minimum effort I can see 1.5 making sense.

You’ve obviously never heard of roaming. Its OK to leave the blob once in a while to press a button other than “1”.

Blodeuyn.2751:

It’s not discrimination. It is rewarding those who’ve played wvw for years. Why should new players, who might leave wvw altogether when they have their rewards, get the same amount of pips as those loyal to the game mode?

I welcome everyone new to wvw, and hope you find it fun, but you have to earn your ranks and rewards like the rest of us. Wvw has been neglected for ages, so it is past time for those of us playing this game mode to get something from it.

Please remember, someone else’s rank doesn’t take away from your fun and rewards. Stick with wvw and you’ll get there soon enough yourself!

I have to agree.

Those who are in WvW now might stay but more likely once they have their ‘rewards’ they will leave, leaving huge holes where we need people.

Turk.5460:

Heibi.4251:

But if players just do the minimum effort I can see 1.5 making sense.

You’ve obviously never heard of roaming. Its OK to leave the blob once in a while to press a button other than “1”.

I used a metric that represented an average, something achievable even for a roamer. There was entirely too much hand waving. The graph shows that..and i have others for super casual….really 10 hrs a week at 1 rank an hour over 1 yr you get like 4 k tickets and that assumes bare minimum pip aquisition 2 pips to start and the graph accounts for pip increases due to increasing rank.

So all the 2yrs bs is just that…..

PabbyGaul.9682:

Turk.5460:

Heibi.4251:

But if players just do the minimum effort I can see 1.5 making sense.

You’ve obviously never heard of roaming. Its OK to leave the blob once in a while to press a button other than “1”.

I used a metric that represented an average, something achievable even for a roamer. There was entirely too much hand waving. The graph shows that..and i have others for super casual….really 10 hrs a week at 1 rank an hour over 1 yr you get like 4 k tickets and that assumes bare minimum pip aquisition 2 pips to start and the graph accounts for pip increases due to increasing rank.

So all the 2yrs bs is just that…..

Congratulations on your hard work which does not include any variables whatsoever. Not sure why you quoted me here, though, since my reply was in regard to someone thinking roaming is “bare minimum.”

But sure, lets talk about your chart.
I’m assuming you’re attempting to counter the argument that it would take casual players an unreasonable amount of time to see rewards?

OK please revise your chart to include:
-Casual newcomer WvW players aren’t spending their entirety of 2.14 hours from start to finish in WvW – AKA, just because they like the game mode, doesn’t mean it isntantly becomes the only thing they do in GW2.
-Not all ticks of a skirmish are going to be with Tier3 participation, and since your chart assumes 2nd place, it may take longer than 15 minutes to ramp up to t3, depending on availability of enemy points to capture.
-Time waiting in a queue if player is on a high pop server and can only play during prime time.

And there’s probably quite a few more variables that I’m leaving out. So please add the above, and possibly more, then we can take your chart seriously. But as of right now, the attempt is laughable. And even in a perfect world where there are zero variables it would still take over a month for someone to get a single piece of ascended gear. Imagine how long it would take with an actually accurate chart…

Not so BS now, is it?

I wonder if you realize how much of a turnoff some of you are for those of us who recently joined the WvW community or who played this as a secondary game mode.

First I only started the game about 3 years ago, and only started in WvW about a year ago and that only rarely. It is only for the last 3-4 months that I have been playing for any significant amount of time in WvW. What this means is that while I did WvW before the patch I was still at a low level (I need 5 levels to reach 150). I enjoy the game mode, but that does not mean I don’t also enjoy getting shinies.

I have no issue with those who are vets getting rewards faster, I do however feel that pip acquisition for those of us at low levels is too low. Hell even having the base rate gain be 2,3,4 for world position would help. Just that 1 pip difference would have a rather big effect for those of us at low levels, even if it doesn’t get us anywhere near diamond.

Neutra.6857:

I wonder if you realize how much of a turnoff some of you are for those of us who recently joined the WvW community or who played this as a secondary game mode.

First I only started the game about 3 years ago, and only started in WvW about a year ago and that only rarely. It is only for the last 3-4 months that I have been playing for any significant amount of time in WvW. What this means is that while I did WvW before the patch I was still at a low level (I need 5 levels to reach 150). I enjoy the game mode, but that does not mean I don’t also enjoy getting shinies.

I have no issue with those who are vets getting rewards faster, I do however feel that pip acquisition for those of us at low levels is too low. Hell even having the base rate gain be 2,3,4 for world position would help. Just that 1 pip difference would have a rather big effect for those of us at low levels, even if it doesn’t get us anywhere near diamond.

That’s pretty much what this thread is about now. People like you, who have basic logic and critical thinking skills. Versus others who try to derail this most basic of logic and reasoning, trying to disguise their selfish elitism with a unwarranted fear of “mode integrity” which was already in shambles before this patch existed.

And its pretty much the same 3 people opposing it vs. the countless newcomers to this thread with the same normal and reasonable thought process as you.

Shazmataz.1423:

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

would be nice to get ticket cap every week without having to spend 30-40 hrs per week in wvw (like a full time job), which mostly involves standing around most of the time – pvd + standing in circles.

figure out another way to reward wvw vets. Don’t make high rank reward = lower ranks detriment. (essentially having a high rank is a lifting of the low rank “pip handicap,” baseline.)

30-40hrs?? Gob smacked. I suggest that you don’t know how to wvw or you exaggerate much.

I run up to 15 hrs /week with my wvw guild, which does NOT involve pvd or standing in circles and easily finish diamond with a couple of days to spare on a T4 server!! We seek out fights, take objectives to provoke epic fights getting lots of kills and bags plus have alot of fun on the way.

Either the reward is worth your time or its not, same as pvp or pve. It seems to me that the reward is not worth your time so decide and move on….please.

Another person with high ranks acting like the grind is fine. Tell me how does playing wvw with any skill affect pip gain? Oh that’s right it doesn’t matter if you provoke epic fights or do pvd. Your rank must be 2K+ if you get diamond in 15 hrs. How about you move on and please let it go.

Turk.5460:

PabbyGaul.9682:

Turk.5460:

Heibi.4251:

But if players just do the minimum effort I can see 1.5 making sense.

You’ve obviously never heard of roaming. Its OK to leave the blob once in a while to press a button other than “1”.

I used a metric that represented an average, something achievable even for a roamer. There was entirely too much hand waving. The graph shows that..and i have others for super casual….really 10 hrs a week at 1 rank an hour over 1 yr you get like 4 k tickets and that assumes bare minimum pip aquisition 2 pips to start and the graph accounts for pip increases due to increasing rank.

So all the 2yrs bs is just that…..

Congratulations on your hard work which does not include any variables whatsoever. Not sure why you quoted me here, though, since my reply was in regard to someone thinking roaming is “bare minimum.”

But sure, lets talk about your chart.
I’m assuming you’re attempting to counter the argument that it would take casual players an unreasonable amount of time to see rewards?

OK please revise your chart to include:
-Casual newcomer WvW players aren’t spending their entirety of 2.14 hours from start to finish in WvW – AKA, just because they like the game mode, doesn’t mean it isntantly becomes the only thing they do in GW2.
-Not all ticks of a skirmish are going to be with Tier3 participation, and since your chart assumes 2nd place, it may take longer than 15 minutes to ramp up to t3, depending on availability of enemy points to capture.
-Time waiting in a queue if player is on a high pop server and can only play during prime time.

And there’s probably quite a few more variables that I’m leaving out. So please add the above, and possibly more, then we can take your chart seriously. But as of right now, the attempt is laughable. And even in a perfect world where there are zero variables it would still take over a month for someone to get a single piece of ascended gear. Imagine how long it would take with an actually accurate chart…

Not so BS now, is it?

All you see is the chart and what you are asking for isnt really possible to model all scenarios simultaneously because physics. So..the chart takes into account average parpipsipation using algorithms for rank up and subsequent formulae for ticket aquisition. The chart isnt laughable…your attempts to understand it on the otherhand are. Not everyone roams and flips burgers. Some ppl got math skilz.

Turk.5460:

PabbyGaul.9682:

Turk.5460:

Heibi.4251:

But if players just do the minimum effort I can see 1.5 making sense.

You’ve obviously never heard of roaming. Its OK to leave the blob once in a while to press a button other than “1”.

I used a metric that represented an average, something achievable even for a roamer. There was entirely too much hand waving. The graph shows that..and i have others for super casual….really 10 hrs a week at 1 rank an hour over 1 yr you get like 4 k tickets and that assumes bare minimum pip aquisition 2 pips to start and the graph accounts for pip increases due to increasing rank.

So all the 2yrs bs is just that…..

Congratulations on your hard work which does not include any variables whatsoever. Not sure why you quoted me here, though, since my reply was in regard to someone thinking roaming is “bare minimum.”

But sure, lets talk about your chart.
I’m assuming you’re attempting to counter the argument that it would take casual players an unreasonable amount of time to see rewards?

OK please revise your chart to include:
-Casual newcomer WvW players aren’t spending their entirety of 2.14 hours from start to finish in WvW – AKA, just because they like the game mode, doesn’t mean it isntantly becomes the only thing they do in GW2.
-Not all ticks of a skirmish are going to be with Tier3 participation, and since your chart assumes 2nd place, it may take longer than 15 minutes to ramp up to t3, depending on availability of enemy points to capture.
-Time waiting in a queue if player is on a high pop server and can only play during prime time.

And there’s probably quite a few more variables that I’m leaving out. So please add the above, and possibly more, then we can take your chart seriously. But as of right now, the attempt is laughable. And even in a perfect world where there are zero variables it would still take over a month for someone to get a single piece of ascended gear. Imagine how long it would take with an actually accurate chart…

Not so BS now, is it?

No one can account for every single variable. The best we can do is assume averages and ley players adjust mentally for their own variables.

The only average shown is the 3 pips. Everything else is assuming best case scenario. The chart is laughable. And rank gain hasn’t even been a focal point on this thread until you decided it should be. Nobody cares about that, the discussion is about pips and more specifically base pips.

So again I ask, what thread are you reading? Because it certainly is not this one.

Decrease outnumbered to 2 pips/tick
Increase commitment to 3 pips/tick
Increase base pips an extra +1

I’m only rank 110 so I need to abuse the outnumbered pips if I even want a chance at completing the gold chest.

Turk.5460:

The only average shown is the 3 pips. Everything else is assuming best case scenario. The chart is laughable. And rank gain hasn’t even been a focal point on this thread until you decided it should be. Nobody cares about that, the discussion is about pips and more specifically base pips.

So again I ask, what thread are you reading? Because it certainly is not this one.

The first two posts in the thread, along with others throughout, reference difference in pip gain based on rank (making rank gain itself relevant to the discussion since it impacts that metric) as the posters’ primary complaint. Base pips is one of multiple points of discussion, not the sole point.

It’s a good chart showing how WXP rank gain plays into the system.

Just for fun, here’s a screenshot from last night of about an hour of 2nd place gameplay on a silver account with no loyalty pip bonus and the outnumbered buff in EBG (working as intended – hell yes I’ll keep playing when outnumbered).

Almost enough pips for the entire wood track alone.

Turk.5460:

The only average shown is the 3 pips. Everything else is assuming best case scenario. The chart is laughable. And rank gain hasn’t even been a focal point on this thread until you decided it should be. Nobody cares about that, the discussion is about pips and more specifically base pips.

So again I ask, what thread are you reading? Because it certainly is not this one.

How is it assuming best case scenario? He clearly aim for the average pipwise and 10 hours per week isn’t anything unreasonable.

It gives you a pretty realistic expectation for someone who isn’t even of bronze rank. Once you hit lvl 150, you get +1 pip every tick. Also, his model does not factor ANY outnumbered ticks.

Chaba.5410:

It’s a good chart showing how WXP rank gain plays into the system.

Just for fun, here’s a screenshot from last night of about an hour of 2nd place gameplay on a silver account with no loyalty pip bonus and the outnumbered buff in EBG (working as intended – hell yes I’ll keep playing when outnumbered).

Almost enough pips for the entire wood track alone.

Average pips / tick = 7.42
Edited because calculator.

PabbyGaul.9682:

Chaba.5410:

It’s a good chart showing how WXP rank gain plays into the system.

Just for fun, here’s a screenshot from last night of about an hour of 2nd place gameplay on a silver account with no loyalty pip bonus and the outnumbered buff in EBG (working as intended – hell yes I’ll keep playing when outnumbered).

Almost enough pips for the entire wood track alone.

Average pips / tick = 8.2 ish

If only all ticks could be like that. Heh.

My suggestion for players looking to optimize their pip gain without pouring vast amounts of time into it, learn when your server’s population is lower than the opponent servers for higher chance at outnumbered buff. This was a late night skirmish Pacific time. I didn’t hop around to find the outnumbered buff.

A model is also testable…if ppl take their pips earned over a period of time and divide it by the numbers of ticks you get pips/tick right. Compare it to the model. Do ppl that started at 0 rank have ticket numbers that fit what the model predicts? Its a model not jesus.

On the subject of current player toxicity / elitism post wvw rewards I just have a few questions:

1) Wvw “vet” players:
PRIOR to rewards, how many times were you casually strolling through a bl when the commander or another player publically called out the entire map as worthless because they lost a fight or an objective?

2) For the sake of assumption…PVER’s:
How many times were you casually strolling through a map doing completion when someone said “Meta or GTFO” or publically called out the entire map when the event failed?

3) Wvw Vets: Is the level of toxicity that you witnessed in wvw prior to rewards higher now post rewards?

Personally, I saw a few instances of wvw player and commander “passion” over the years, in fact some commanders were well known for their passion.

Since rewards, I haven’t really seen this, then again I’m from a deshelved guest server and don’t know alot of the host commanders and players and even when I do get to know them, relinks happen. You could say in that respect for a vet, its similiar to a wvw noob being thrown into wvw for the first time, but that’s a different story for a different day.

I always see pvers complaining about meta fails though, publically calling out 1 side of octovine because they went too fast/too slow, so and so was in an armor and didn’t kill the frogs, people at the wp AFK’ING.

Over the years though, not once in wvw or GENERAL pve have I ever seen anyone lord their rank over another player though.

With raids, there was a form of elitism in that most parties needed to inspect your build, check your LI amount ect to ensure you were a “good player”. So, I have to ask, since wvw players don’t stop and check everyone’s rank on the map, how is raids considered easier to get into and less toxic than wvw?

Furthermore, on the subject of ticket timegating/acquisition, one can make the argument that it’s easier in another mode, IF one had previously jumped the hoops required by the players of that mode and worked with a group to clear the content in order t continue to collect it’s rewards.

I can’t solo all fractals, I can’t solo a raid, but I can solo a tier 3 camp and tower, and 2 years ago I could solo a keep. How many current rank 50’s that arent someones alt can say the same?

Arrogance comes with experience and experience should come with better / faster rewards. But at what level in wvw is one considered exerienced?

Chaba.5410:

Amaimon.7823:

if you’re not rank 3000 by now, there’s no way in seven realms of oblivion and the gazing abyss behind it that you can complete the wooden chest in one week.

No need for the hyperbole. I finished Silver on an account with rank 780 in 6-8 hours of WvW by getting either 3 pips per tick (2 for rank, 1 for third place) or 8 with outnumbered buff.

Except when youre on a skritt server that is just active enough to never have the outnumbered bonus, but inactive enough to always fail, so im cursed with 1 pip per tick, meaning i have to sacrifice my entire working week for getting the wooden chest, and thats just ridiculously disproportionate

Amaimon.7823:

Chaba.5410:

Amaimon.7823:

if you’re not rank 3000 by now, there’s no way in seven realms of oblivion and the gazing abyss behind it that you can complete the wooden chest in one week.

No need for the hyperbole. I finished Silver on an account with rank 780 in 6-8 hours of WvW by getting either 3 pips per tick (2 for rank, 1 for third place) or 8 with outnumbered buff.

Except when youre on a skritt server that is just active enough to never have the outnumbered bonus, but inactive enough to always fail, so im cursed with 1 pip per tick, meaning i have to sacrifice my entire working week for getting the wooden chest, and thats just ridiculously disproportionate

Yeah…i would say there are ppl that cant meet minimun for commitment…..Then whats the commitment pip for if not commitment?

You need a wvw buddy. I reccomend you join a wvw guild they will help you out.

HazyDaisy.4107:

On the subject of current player toxicity / elitism post wvw rewards I just have a few questions:

1) Wvw “vet” players:
PRIOR to rewards, how many times were you casually strolling through a bl when the commander or another player publically called out the entire map as worthless because they lost a fight or an objective?

2) For the sake of assumption…PVER’s:
How many times were you casually strolling through a map doing completion when someone said “Meta or GTFO” or publically called out the entire map when the event failed?

3) Wvw Vets: Is the level of toxicity that you witnessed in wvw prior to rewards higher now post rewards?

Personally, I saw a few instances of wvw player and commander “passion” over the years, in fact some commanders were well known for their passion.

Since rewards, I haven’t really seen this, then again I’m from a deshelved guest server and don’t know alot of the host commanders and players and even when I do get to know them, relinks happen. You could say in that respect for a vet, its similiar to a wvw noob being thrown into wvw for the first time, but that’s a different story for a different day.

I always see pvers complaining about meta fails though, publically calling out 1 side of octovine because they went too fast/too slow, so and so was in an armor and didn’t kill the frogs, people at the wp AFK’ING.

Over the years though, not once in wvw or GENERAL pve have I ever seen anyone lord their rank over another player though.

With raids, there was a form of elitism in that most parties needed to inspect your build, check your LI amount ect to ensure you were a “good player”. So, I have to ask, since wvw players don’t stop and check everyone’s rank on the map, how is raids considered easier to get into and less toxic than wvw?

Furthermore, on the subject of ticket timegating/acquisition, one can make the argument that it’s easier in another mode, IF one had previously jumped the hoops required by the players of that mode and worked with a group to clear the content in order t continue to collect it’s rewards.

I can’t solo all fractals, I can’t solo a raid, but I can solo a tier 3 camp and tower, and 2 years ago I could solo a keep. How many current rank 50’s that arent someones alt can say the same?

Arrogance comes with experience and experience should come with better / faster rewards. But at what level in wvw is one considered exerienced?

So much to learn in wvw…. Enemy zerg composition, supply/cost dynamics, map tells, gvg, recruiting, guild managment, party composition, tactics, ghall tactivators, roaming, scouting,commanding, server meetings, siege placement, counter siege placement, defense tactics, open fieldbtactics, ts…..i could go on and on. They all happen on every server. What If I said your experienced when you could do all those things well?

So I have ground out enough pips for 2 weeks now getting diamond though a combination of regular play and outnumbered half afk farming. I been reading a book and this works out well for me but it has also left me time to think about the effect this unbalance has on game play. I am writing this post as I sit half afk farming pips while maintaining t6 participation. The effect I see that is unhealthy is that this type of pip bonus has the added effect of disincentivizing active game play in favor of what I have been doing with a lot of other people during off NA prime hours. I have also seen people hopping maps trying to catch outnumbered before a tick. Each week I received a majority of my pips and chests through the outnumbered buff as opposed to regular play because of how potent that buff is.

The solution to this I feel is to reduce the number of pips a player earns to 2 for outnumbered.

To offset this restriction in pip income I would suggest adding a couple different means of earning pips that are linked to more active game play. For example every time a player gets credit for successfully capturing/defending a sentry, camp, tower, they would get 1 pip per tick for the first one of each type they captured/defended. Then add in a 2 pip reward for capturing the first keep and maybe 3-5 for capturing SM. Give a 1 pip reward for defending a keep or SM to incentivize defense. To fully control the open faucet of pips a maximum amount per skirmish available could be set up at the Dev’s discretion.

I know there is tangentially a pip thread but this is a fully thought out proposal for a tweak to the pip issue regarding the outnumbered buff specifically. Please let this stand alone as a subject for discussion since its the first thing I have bothered to post in years.

TLDR: nerf outnumbered to 2 pips and add in pips for capping/defending to promote active gameplay.

Note this is coming from someone who joined the game exclusively for WvW and has only done PvE for rewards to use in WvW and don’t actually thinks rewards should be easy

Current system has a few problems

Unreasonably high time investment for low ranks 40+ hours/week is a completely insane time requirement for max progress. Solution: Double pip acquisition across the board.

Pips/rank, ranks to be honest are a joke, they almost exclusively reward zerglings and punish roamers, I have actively played WvW for close to a year, my rank is somewhere between 900-1000, I get +2 pips/tick, someone who might have zerged for 3-4 months just spamming 1 with their lootstick could be getting +6 by now, I have never in my life zerged and the very thought of zerging disgusts me. I can see getting more rewards for up to 482 rank points as that is the point where one has all the useful “Rank Abilities”, maybe make it 500 to make it an even number. Solution: Remove rank pips, maybe give 1 or 2 pips for reaching the rank where rank points stop being useful, perhaps even up to 1k but that would be stretching it.

WvW is by it’s very nature, at least to non-zerglings a gamemode played more heavily during some periods and less heavily during others. Some weeks I’ve clocked 70+ hours easily, others 10 or less, simply due to a matchup being more or less fun (some servers basically only have omniblobs, and no groups smaller than 20 except for the few solo thieves that run away, while other servers got plenty of 5-15 sized groups that are actually fightable). Solution: Unfinished chests should carry over from week to week, so for example if one doesn’t play for a week, then plays twice as much next week the rewards are the same, but with a limit of maybe 3-4 weeks.

Now to adress this thread

When one decides what to do in a game it should be apparent what gives what rewards, from the sounds of it, everyone who played WvW before knew it gave kitten all and played it anyway, hence they made a decision about it, they hardly made the decision with a motivation “if I zerg a ton now maybe I will get rewarded sometime in 2017”. Retroactive rewards by their very nature are dumb since they reward players for a non-decision. Legendary Insights being farmable before legendary armor was okay-ish due to the fact that how one earned them, what they gave and in what quantities they were needed were all common knowledge.

Comparisons to new players getting ascended armor/agony resistance are completely baseless. These are items any player can get with just a gold cost and they actively impact their performance regardless of their skill level, a good player with ascended will be stronger than the same player in exotic, no matter how you slice it. The difference between a rank 1032 and a rank 9791 player is not comparable, the only difference is that they have played differently/for different amounts of time. When I was rank 45 that never stopped me from completely obliterating many rank 5k+ zerglings when they were caught alone, rank in WvW means absolutely nothing.

This is coming from someone who only plays WvW, is hardcore about it, wants the backpack, but won’t quit over not getting it soon, nor will I stop playing once I got it.

And to people saying that high ranked players are the ones keeping the gamemode alive, that is completely insane, most of the high ranked players have gotten it through omniblobbing. Omniblobbing is killing the gamemode and is what makes many players steer clear of WvW. Omniblobbing is the reason there is lag in WvW among being among the reason actual fights are hard to find.

Simple solution – have the commitment pip scale up by one pip capping out at 5 pips for every consecutive weekly commitment threshold met.

So get to wood chest 1st week 2nd week you get 1 commitment pip. Get wood chest 2nd week get 2 commitment pips 3rd week. Ect. All the way to 5 pips for 5 consecutive weeks. If you miss a week it scales down by one pip or is completely reset.

Amaimon.7823:

Chaba.5410:

Amaimon.7823:

if you’re not rank 3000 by now, there’s no way in seven realms of oblivion and the gazing abyss behind it that you can complete the wooden chest in one week.

No need for the hyperbole. I finished Silver on an account with rank 780 in 6-8 hours of WvW by getting either 3 pips per tick (2 for rank, 1 for third place) or 8 with outnumbered buff.

Except when youre on a skritt server that is just active enough to never have the outnumbered bonus, but inactive enough to always fail, so im cursed with 1 pip per tick, meaning i have to sacrifice my entire working week for getting the wooden chest, and thats just ridiculously disproportionate

Please see this post: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Feedback-Pip-Acquisition-merged/page/16#post6633716

Account in question is on Eredon Terrace which is linked to DB. Most people who have been playing WvW for awhile now are familiar enough with the strong and weak times of their own server and other servers so ask around.

SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026:

Note this is coming from someone who joined the game exclusively for WvW and has only done PvE for rewards to use in WvW and don’t actually thinks rewards should be easy

Current system has a few problems

Unreasonably high time investment for low ranks 40+ hours/week is a completely insane time requirement for max progress. Solution: Double pip acquisition across the board.

Pips/rank, ranks to be honest are a joke, they almost exclusively reward zerglings and punish roamers, I have actively played WvW for close to a year, my rank is somewhere between 900-1000, I get +2 pips/tick, someone who might have zerged for 3-4 months just spamming 1 with their lootstick could be getting +6 by now, I have never in my life zerged and the very thought of zerging disgusts me. I can see getting more rewards for up to 482 rank points as that is the point where one has all the useful “Rank Abilities”, maybe make it 500 to make it an even number. Solution: Remove rank pips, maybe give 1 or 2 pips for reaching the rank where rank points stop being useful, perhaps even up to 1k but that would be stretching it.

WvW is by it’s very nature, at least to non-zerglings a gamemode played more heavily during some periods and less heavily during others. Some weeks I’ve clocked 70+ hours easily, others 10 or less, simply due to a matchup being more or less fun (some servers basically only have omniblobs, and no groups smaller than 20 except for the few solo thieves that run away, while other servers got plenty of 5-15 sized groups that are actually fightable). Solution: Unfinished chests should carry over from week to week, so for example if one doesn’t play for a week, then plays twice as much next week the rewards are the same, but with a limit of maybe 3-4 weeks.

Now to adress this thread

When one decides what to do in a game it should be apparent what gives what rewards, from the sounds of it, everyone who played WvW before knew it gave kitten all and played it anyway, hence they made a decision about it, they hardly made the decision with a motivation “if I zerg a ton now maybe I will get rewarded sometime in 2017”. Retroactive rewards by their very nature are dumb since they reward players for a non-decision. Legendary Insights being farmable before legendary armor was okay-ish due to the fact that how one earned them, what they gave and in what quantities they were needed were all common knowledge.

Comparisons to new players getting ascended armor/agony resistance are completely baseless. These are items any player can get with just a gold cost and they actively impact their performance regardless of their skill level, a good player with ascended will be stronger than the same player in exotic, no matter how you slice it. The difference between a rank 1032 and a rank 9791 player is not comparable, the only difference is that they have played differently/for different amounts of time. When I was rank 45 that never stopped me from completely obliterating many rank 5k+ zerglings when they were caught alone, rank in WvW means absolutely nothing.

This is coming from someone who only plays WvW, is hardcore about it, wants the backpack, but won’t quit over not getting it soon, nor will I stop playing once I got it.

And to people saying that high ranked players are the ones keeping the gamemode alive, that is completely insane, most of the high ranked players have gotten it through omniblobbing. Omniblobbing is killing the gamemode and is what makes many players steer clear of WvW. Omniblobbing is the reason there is lag in WvW among being among the reason actual fights are hard to find.

While I agree largely with what you say, we have to be real here about what WvW is designed for: World vs Wold. Not Roamer vs Roamer, not 5v5, 2v8, or 7v17. It’s designed for large scale battles hence blobs, there is no ifs, ands or buts about it.

I’d guess if they shrunk the map size down to say 20 players per side, WvW would be dead in less than 2 days. For people that want smaller battles, go PvP; WvW is and always will be meant for blobbing. It just sucks when one is on the receiving end of it with a much smaller group.

Turk.5460:

Heibi.4251:

But if players just do the minimum effort I can see 1.5 making sense.

You’ve obviously never heard of roaming. Its OK to leave the blob once in a while to press a button other than “1”.

I do far more than press 1. That’s how I get so much exp in large fights. Those who press 1 don’t get as much. A 1,1,1,1,1 player doesn’t last that long in a big fight. I’m quite high in rank in WvW.

DeadlySynz.3471:

SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026:

Note this is coming from someone who joined the game exclusively for WvW and has only done PvE for rewards to use in WvW and don’t actually thinks rewards should be easy

Current system has a few problems

Unreasonably high time investment for low ranks 40+ hours/week is a completely insane time requirement for max progress. Solution: Double pip acquisition across the board.

Pips/rank, ranks to be honest are a joke, they almost exclusively reward zerglings and punish roamers, I have actively played WvW for close to a year, my rank is somewhere between 900-1000, I get +2 pips/tick, someone who might have zerged for 3-4 months just spamming 1 with their lootstick could be getting +6 by now, I have never in my life zerged and the very thought of zerging disgusts me. I can see getting more rewards for up to 482 rank points as that is the point where one has all the useful “Rank Abilities”, maybe make it 500 to make it an even number. Solution: Remove rank pips, maybe give 1 or 2 pips for reaching the rank where rank points stop being useful, perhaps even up to 1k but that would be stretching it.

WvW is by it’s very nature, at least to non-zerglings a gamemode played more heavily during some periods and less heavily during others. Some weeks I’ve clocked 70+ hours easily, others 10 or less, simply due to a matchup being more or less fun (some servers basically only have omniblobs, and no groups smaller than 20 except for the few solo thieves that run away, while other servers got plenty of 5-15 sized groups that are actually fightable). Solution: Unfinished chests should carry over from week to week, so for example if one doesn’t play for a week, then plays twice as much next week the rewards are the same, but with a limit of maybe 3-4 weeks.

Now to adress this thread

When one decides what to do in a game it should be apparent what gives what rewards, from the sounds of it, everyone who played WvW before knew it gave kitten all and played it anyway, hence they made a decision about it, they hardly made the decision with a motivation “if I zerg a ton now maybe I will get rewarded sometime in 2017”. Retroactive rewards by their very nature are dumb since they reward players for a non-decision. Legendary Insights being farmable before legendary armor was okay-ish due to the fact that how one earned them, what they gave and in what quantities they were needed were all common knowledge.

Comparisons to new players getting ascended armor/agony resistance are completely baseless. These are items any player can get with just a gold cost and they actively impact their performance regardless of their skill level, a good player with ascended will be stronger than the same player in exotic, no matter how you slice it. The difference between a rank 1032 and a rank 9791 player is not comparable, the only difference is that they have played differently/for different amounts of time. When I was rank 45 that never stopped me from completely obliterating many rank 5k+ zerglings when they were caught alone, rank in WvW means absolutely nothing.

This is coming from someone who only plays WvW, is hardcore about it, wants the backpack, but won’t quit over not getting it soon, nor will I stop playing once I got it.

And to people saying that high ranked players are the ones keeping the gamemode alive, that is completely insane, most of the high ranked players have gotten it through omniblobbing. Omniblobbing is killing the gamemode and is what makes many players steer clear of WvW. Omniblobbing is the reason there is lag in WvW among being among the reason actual fights are hard to find.

While I agree largely with what you say, we have to be real here about what WvW is designed for: World vs Wold. Not Roamer vs Roamer, not 5v5, 2v8, or 7v17. It’s designed for large scale battles hence blobs, there is no ifs, ands or buts about it.

I’d guess if they shrunk the map size down to say 20 players per side, WvW would be dead in less than 2 days. For people that want smaller battles, go PvP; WvW is and always will be meant for blobbing. It just sucks when one is on the receiving end of it with a much smaller group.

Large scale doesn’t have to equal blob. blob is a very specific way of running a large group that basically comes down to stacking for the super unintuitive reason that stacking is the counter to AoE which is it’s own problem, the blobbing is also what makes large scale fights require no skills as it is really just all about stacking ontop of the commander and out-target capping your opponent, which is why I hate it and why it causes lag,

SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026:

When one decides what to do in a game it should be apparent what gives what rewards, from the sounds of it, everyone who played WvW before knew it gave kitten all and played it anyway, hence they made a decision about it, they hardly made the decision with a motivation “if I zerg a ton now maybe I will get rewarded sometime in 2017”. Retroactive rewards by their very nature are dumb since they reward players for a non-decision.

When I play in PvE in my favorite zones I do so without motivation for a given or specific drop, a precursor for example, so should chance of said dropping be eliminated from anyone who does not specifically state what exactly they might be hoping for as a reward?

No, of course not. Every specific drop I’ve ever gotten has been, “a non-decision.” There is however a somewhat common, reasonable in my opinion, assumption that your time and effort spent in an endeavor in game will be rewarded by the game. Correcting what some might consider design errors in this area is not a bad thing.

SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026:

The difference between a rank 1032 and a rank 9791 player is not comparable, the only difference is that they have played differently/for different amounts of time.

Or the difference between these two individuals could be that the higher ranked individual is more skilled, perhaps due to much more practice. The difference between these two individuals could be a matter of the lower ranked player being more skilled at individual play while the higher ranked is more knowledgeable about commanding….we do not know what the difference is without examining the individuals so it is questionable to claim what the, “only difference is,” without doing so.

SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026:

rank in WvW means absolutely nothing.

A puzzling inaccuracy. Earlier in your post you claim that it does mean something, giving an example, and here you contradict yourself. Rank means something, potentially one of the most important things to the developer…how much you play

SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026:

And to people saying that high ranked players are the ones keeping the gamemode alive, that is completely insane, most of the high ranked players have gotten it through omniblobbing. Omniblobbing is killing the gamemode and is what makes many players steer clear of WvW. Omniblobbing is the reason there is lag in WvW among being among the reason actual fights are hard to find.

Some interesting, “no true scotsman,” arguing there.

When you say, “most,” what percentage do you mean?

eithinan.9841:

So I have ground out enough pips for 2 weeks now getting diamond though a combination of regular play and outnumbered half afk farming. I been reading a book and this works out well for me but it has also left me time to think about the effect this unbalance has on game play. I am writing this post as I sit half afk farming pips while maintaining t6 participation. The effect I see that is unhealthy is that this type of pip bonus has the added effect of disincentivizing active game play in favor of what I have been doing with a lot of other people during off NA prime hours. I have also seen people hopping maps trying to catch outnumbered before a tick. Each week I received a majority of my pips and chests through the outnumbered buff as opposed to regular play because of how potent that buff is.

The solution to this I feel is to reduce the number of pips a player earns to 2 for outnumbered.

To offset this restriction in pip income I would suggest adding a couple different means of earning pips that are linked to more active game play. For example every time a player gets credit for successfully capturing/defending a sentry, camp, tower, they would get 1 pip per tick for the first one of each type they captured/defended. Then add in a 2 pip reward for capturing the first keep and maybe 3-5 for capturing SM. Give a 1 pip reward for defending a keep or SM to incentivize defense. To fully control the open faucet of pips a maximum amount per skirmish available could be set up at the Dev’s discretion.

I know there is tangentially a pip thread but this is a fully thought out proposal for a tweak to the pip issue regarding the outnumbered buff specifically. Please let this stand alone as a subject for discussion since its the first thing I have bothered to post in years.

TLDR: nerf outnumbered to 2 pips and add in pips for capping/defending to promote active gameplay.

AFK’ing is a disaster.

Needing to use the restroom on an queued map is normal, and allowances should be made, but I see some AFK’ing for an hour or more.

So, Anet, how are they doing that and why are they allowed to do so, when I know I get dropped if I need to use the facilities many times – and getting back into a map with a queue sometimes doesn’t happen for a very long time, but again, AFK’ers take that space where an active player is rejected due to the queue.

HazyDaisy.4107:

1) Wvw “vet” players:
PRIOR to rewards, how many times were you casually strolling through a bl when the commander or another player publically called out the entire map as worthless because they lost a fight or an objective?

Prior to the pip patch, those that sat on a map just dueling caught the ire of many…so yeah, that animosity got transferred to new kittens, PvE reward-seeking kittens, AFK pip-farmer kittens and Outnumbered buff-seeking kittens. It’s a fine cluster-kitten, now, isn’t it?

SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026:

When one decides what to do in a game it should be apparent what gives what rewards, from the sounds of it, everyone who played WvW before knew it gave kitten all and played it anyway, hence they made a decision about it, they hardly made the decision with a motivation “if I zerg a ton now maybe I will get rewarded sometime in 2017”. Retroactive rewards by their very nature are dumb since they reward players for a non-decision.

Ashen.2907:

When I play in PvE in my favorite zones I do so without motivation for a given or specific drop, a precursor for example, so should chance of said dropping be eliminated from anyone who does not specifically state what exactly they might be hoping for as a reward?

No, of course not. Every specific drop I’ve ever gotten has been, “a non-decision.” There is however a somewhat common, reasonable in my opinion, assumption that your time and effort spent in an endeavor in game will be rewarded by the game. Correcting what some might consider design errors in this area is not a bad thing.

Non-decision in this context refers to the fact that doing the thing giving the reward was made without knowledge of the reward, not regardless of if there was a reward or not.

But you are aware of what the rewards are/have the possibility to be, personally I don’t think extremely low drop rate items such as precursor drops really have a place, but this is hardly the place for that discussion.

I am all for WvW giving rewards and I think it not giving good rewards from the start was a bad decision, however everyone who played the gamemode were perfectly aware of it and clearly played it for the actual fun of it. Giving out rewards retroactively has as clearly shown done nothing but create animosity.

I am fairly certain every single MMORPG player is aware that not all parts of the game is equally rewarding

SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026:

The difference between a rank 1032 and a rank 9791 player is not comparable, the only difference is that they have played differently/for different amounts of time.

Ashen.2907:

Or the difference between these two individuals could be that the higher ranked individual is more skilled, perhaps due to much more practice. The difference between these two individuals could be a matter of the lower ranked player being more skilled at individual play while the higher ranked is more knowledgeable about commanding….we do not know what the difference is without examining the individuals so it is questionable to claim what the, “only difference is,” without doing so.

Keywords here are “could be” and “we do not know”, hence giving them different rewards seems a bit weird, no?

SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026:

rank in WvW means absolutely nothing.

Ashen.2907:

A puzzling inaccuracy. Earlier in your post you claim that it does mean something, giving an example, and here you contradict yourself. Rank means something, potentially one of the most important things to the developer…how much you play

What I obviously mean is that rank means nothing as a skill indicator, which it does not, that much should be clear from the post.

Rank is a combination of a few factors, mainly how much WvW one has played, and how much of that time was spent doing the most “rewarding” activity, which happens to be omniblobbing, which is very nonconductive to skillful play. Beyond rank 482 or so, it has absolutely no impact on ability to contribute, before that there is situational differences.

SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026:

And to people saying that high ranked players are the ones keeping the gamemode alive, that is completely insane, most of the high ranked players have gotten it through omniblobbing. Omniblobbing is killing the gamemode and is what makes many players steer clear of WvW. Omniblobbing is the reason there is lag in WvW among being among the reason actual fights are hard to find.

Ashen.2907:

Some interesting, “no true scotsman,” arguing there.

When you say, “most,” what percentage do you mean?

Just arguing against the omniblobbers who claim to be the reason the gamemode is still alive, while i believe they are the reason many people avoid it.

Gonna make a rough estimate that about 100% of the people with a rank of 6k+ primarily zergs or used to primarily zerg in WvW as reaching it any other way while not impossible is truly a massive time investment.

Deihnyx.6318:

There is a very interesting post from Turk (I believe) who describe their experience about veterans afking for pip rewards. [snip]

The paragraph you quoted was more tied into my first paragraph about the kinds of players who come into WvW solely in pursuit of some shiny that, more often than not, tend to muck things up for those of us who actually enjoy the game mode for its inherent qualities. Players who are there in good faith and make an effort to learn and contribute are fine. The issue that I see is bringing in the latter over the former and encouraging them to stay, but I do not for a moment believe that the new rewards system was ever intended to do that. According to the Guild Chat episode about the update, my impression is that they designed the system to primarily reward current WvW veterans. If it brings in new players willing to work on the rewards, great. We’ll help them get caught up as best we can. If others are so far behind in ranks and pip bonuses that they instantly give up, then the rewards simply aren’t meant for them and the system, in my opinion, is working as intended — rewarding those committed to playing the mode while dissuading those who want quick/easy shinies.

I haven’t personally seen many people AFKing for pips. If I do, it’s usually post-primetime and they’re waiting for their participation to decay before logging out. Nor have I seen much bitterness or antagonism in map or team chat about new players in WvW (aside from a few trolls) or baseless accusations about AFK pip farmers. I’ll be more alert for it from here on, but outside of that first week or two post-patch, I haven’t noticed anything particularly egregious on my server.

Deihnyx.6318:

No matter what, a new player will need to rank if they want the armor. They will need 2k, a rank that will require devotion to the mode. […] But by using timegating tokens and locking them behind quite a lot of hours every week, you are also leaving out players who could be interested by this mode, who could gear up for it (pve players, raiders, would likely have the money) but are seeing a conscient effort from Anet to not give them a fair start.

By the time a newer player (rank 150 or lower, let’s say) reaches rank 2000 (roughly ~1-1.5 years for the sake of this argument, assuming they play consistently), they will have more than enough tickets and other WvW currencies to purchase at least one set of T2 armor and the corresponding T3, even if they’re only able to complete Gold each week (70 tickets per week). However, as we know, the more you play, the easier it will be to progress. I’m currently rank 1037 and have no problem reaching Diamond 6 by Monday or Tuesday, sometimes Wednesday/Thursday if I’m being slow and lazy about it. My average this week was about 4-6 pips per tick, occasionally 9-10 during off-hours when we have Outnumbered. The first two weeks, I was averaging between 3-4 pips per tick and rarely had the Outnumbered bonus. I’m not opposed to improving pip-gain overall, and I fully expect there will be an update to it in the future, but it’s wise of them to leave it for now while they gather data and evaluate the current system.

Deihnyx.6318:

There has to be limitation, and this limitation is ranking. Ranking can be done at your own speed.

Rank alone is not a good way to gate these particular rewards. We know that they wanted the rewards (the prestige rewards especially) to be long-term goals for dedicated players. Even if you tie tickets to rank-gain (as rank-up rewards or something), ranks are far too easy to farm, so rank-gating fails to serve as a limiting factor. It also turns tickets into yet another useless WvW currency (badges are still worthless and PoH semi-worthless). To offset the ease of farming ranks, they would have to set new requirements for rewards that currently have none and dramatically increase the current rank requirements on others, which would lead to the same complaints we have now. Not to mention, it would leave the system wide open for the hit-and-run reward hunters who would grind out ranks/rewards as quickly as possible and then abandon WvW after a few months when they’re done. That’s not healthy for our game mode.

Deihnyx.6318:

That is what PVP does with asking you to do 3 match a day for 60 days, and what fractals wants you to do with pages. Both are doable in an hour a day. And that’s what is reasonable to ask for WvW.

Reasonable based on what? A comparison against two completely different and unrelated game modes? Are you saying that a player who only puts in an hour a night should have a “reasonable” expectation of maxing out his tickets every week? I’d re-read older posts for more clarity on the argument but the thread merge has unfortunately made it extremely cumbersome to do so.

I reiterate, based on the Guild Chat interview, the skirmish track/pip system was balanced with varying degrees of participation in mind, from super casual (Silver/Gold) to super hardcore (Mithril/Diamond). It was not designed for everyone, least of all a new or super casual player, to reach Diamond 6 every week. There’s some room for improvement, but overall, I don’t see anything wrong with the system given the kind of game mode that WvW is. In a game where new content is zerged down and abandoned within 3-4 weeks (like nearly all of LS3’s new zones), followed by months of complaining about the lack of goals/content, I don’t see how a system that directly counters this could be anything less than beneficial.

SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026:

SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026:

When one decides what to do in a game it should be apparent what gives what rewards, from the sounds of it, everyone who played WvW before knew it gave kitten all and played it anyway, hence they made a decision about it, they hardly made the decision with a motivation “if I zerg a ton now maybe I will get rewarded sometime in 2017”. Retroactive rewards by their very nature are dumb since they reward players for a non-decision.

Ashen.2907:

When I play in PvE in my favorite zones I do so without motivation for a given or specific drop, a precursor for example, so should chance of said dropping be eliminated from anyone who does not specifically state what exactly they might be hoping for as a reward?

No, of course not. Every specific drop I’ve ever gotten has been, “a non-decision.” There is however a somewhat common, reasonable in my opinion, assumption that your time and effort spent in an endeavor in game will be rewarded by the game. Correcting what some might consider design errors in this area is not a bad thing.

Non-decision in this context refers to the fact that doing the thing giving the reward was made without knowledge of the reward, not regardless of if there was a reward or not.

But you are aware of what the rewards are/have the possibility to be, personally I don’t think extremely low drop rate items such as precursor drops really have a place, but this is hardly the place for that discussion.

I am all for WvW giving rewards and I think it not giving good rewards from the start was a bad decision, however everyone who played the gamemode were perfectly aware of it and clearly played it for the actual fun of it. Giving out rewards retroactively has as clearly shown done nothing but create animosity.

I am fairly certain every single MMORPG player is aware that not all parts of the game is equally rewarding

SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026:

The difference between a rank 1032 and a rank 9791 player is not comparable, the only difference is that they have played differently/for different amounts of time.

Ashen.2907:

Or the difference between these two individuals could be that the higher ranked individual is more skilled, perhaps due to much more practice. The difference between these two individuals could be a matter of the lower ranked player being more skilled at individual play while the higher ranked is more knowledgeable about commanding….we do not know what the difference is without examining the individuals so it is questionable to claim what the, “only difference is,” without doing so.

Keywords here are “could be” and “we do not know”, hence giving them different rewards seems a bit weird, no?

SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026:

rank in WvW means absolutely nothing.

Ashen.2907:

A puzzling inaccuracy. Earlier in your post you claim that it does mean something, giving an example, and here you contradict yourself. Rank means something, potentially one of the most important things to the developer…how much you play

What I obviously mean is that rank means nothing as a skill indicator, which it does not, that much should be clear from the post.

Rank is a combination of a few factors, mainly how much WvW one has played, and how much of that time was spent doing the most “rewarding” activity, which happens to be omniblobbing, which is very nonconductive to skillful play. Beyond rank 482 or so, it has absolutely no impact on ability to contribute, before that there is situational differences.

SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026:

And to people saying that high ranked players are the ones keeping the gamemode alive, that is completely insane, most of the high ranked players have gotten it through omniblobbing. Omniblobbing is killing the gamemode and is what makes many players steer clear of WvW. Omniblobbing is the reason there is lag in WvW among being among the reason actual fights are hard to find.

Ashen.2907:

Some interesting, “no true scotsman,” arguing there.

When you say, “most,” what percentage do you mean?

Just arguing against the omniblobbers who claim to be the reason the gamemode is still alive, while i believe they are the reason many people avoid it.

Gonna make a rough estimate that about 100% of the people with a rank of 6k+ primarily zergs or used to primarily zerg in WvW as reaching it any other way while not impossible is truly a massive time investment.

I don’t feel like scaling down the above quote, but my comment is in reference to people doing something for fun without knowing they’d be rewarded later.

The HOT mastery system retroactively rewarded players with red points for stuff they’d done over the years (such as finishing the story, beating the 3 headed wurm and doing a certain portion of dungeons to name a few examples) essentially allowing those players a headstart above others just purchasing the game. Was this considered unfair to the new players or wvw only players? No, in fact the complaints about the mastery point gathering were often met with comments from veteren pve players quite similar to the comments of veteran wvw players in this thread. Did Anet make the players that had completed those achievements start from square one to get their mastery points even though players doing that content had no idea it’d come in handy later? No!

Some more feedback. Its probably been said already but how do anet justify T3 armour taking far longer than legendary armour to acquire when its just ascended, albeit good looking ascended armor.

morrolan.9608:

Some more feedback. Its probably been said already but how do anet justify T3 armour taking far longer than legendary armour to acquire when its just ascended, albeit good looking ascended armor.

I suspect it is related to the PvP system.

Pips are earned every tick and are awarded based on the following criteria:

• Your world’s position during the skirmish (first, second, or third).
• Your WvW rank.
• Whether you’re commanding a squad with at least five people in it.
• Whether you’re fighting while outnumbered.
• If you’ve been playing on the same world for at least three weeks.

Almost everything here is wrong because the core issues in WvW have not been fixed first.

• Skirmish position should not affect pips because the server populations are not balanced and because of the world linking. ANet manually decides the outcome of matchups. There is no player effort beyond of transferring to a correct server.
• WvW Rank should not affect pips because it is making the game mode less accessible for new players, and because EotM WXP still counts towards WvW Ranks.
• Squad commanding… fine, commanding is a lot of work with little rewards.
• Outnumbered should not affect pips because it allows meta-gaming. However if you are outnumbered it is likely you are not getting any skirmish position rewards; 2 wrongs = right?
• Playing on the same world for 3 weeks should not affect pips because the non-existing migration policy has already allowed server stacking. Forcibly rooting players on servers where they do not want to be is not a solution.

ANet: Rebalance the server populations like you said you would and suddenly so many issues go away. Just sum up all the work that has been wasted into patching things around this core issue: World Linking, Skirmishes, Victory Points redistributions, Glicko adjustements, 1-Up-1-Down…

atheria.2837:

eithinan.9841:

So I have ground out enough pips for 2 weeks now getting diamond though a combination of regular play and outnumbered half afk farming. I been reading a book and this works out well for me but it has also left me time to think about the effect this unbalance has on game play. I am writing this post as I sit half afk farming pips while maintaining t6 participation. The effect I see that is unhealthy is that this type of pip bonus has the added effect of disincentivizing active game play in favor of what I have been doing with a lot of other people during off NA prime hours. I have also seen people hopping maps trying to catch outnumbered before a tick. Each week I received a majority of my pips and chests through the outnumbered buff as opposed to regular play because of how potent that buff is.

The solution to this I feel is to reduce the number of pips a player earns to 2 for outnumbered.

To offset this restriction in pip income I would suggest adding a couple different means of earning pips that are linked to more active game play. For example every time a player gets credit for successfully capturing/defending a sentry, camp, tower, they would get 1 pip per tick for the first one of each type they captured/defended. Then add in a 2 pip reward for capturing the first keep and maybe 3-5 for capturing SM. Give a 1 pip reward for defending a keep or SM to incentivize defense. To fully control the open faucet of pips a maximum amount per skirmish available could be set up at the Dev’s discretion.

I know there is tangentially a pip thread but this is a fully thought out proposal for a tweak to the pip issue regarding the outnumbered buff specifically. Please let this stand alone as a subject for discussion since its the first thing I have bothered to post in years.

TLDR: nerf outnumbered to 2 pips and add in pips for capping/defending to promote active gameplay.

AFK’ing is a disaster.

Needing to use the restroom on an queued map is normal, and allowances should be made, but I see some AFK’ing for an hour or more.

So, Anet, how are they doing that and why are they allowed to do so, when I know I get dropped if I need to use the facilities many times – and getting back into a map with a queue sometimes doesn’t happen for a very long time, but again, AFK’ers take that space where an active player is rejected due to the queue.

To be clear noone is fully afk that I have been around but involved the same amount as the old engi farm in LD.
When it comes to farming outnumbered the queue spots dont really matter because if the map is full those half afk people leave the map for the outnumbered buff. I think that the issue at hand is that the time commitment for players to get the higher level chests is much too high without using the outnumbered buff.

While I agree that the out numbered buff WAS too high and promoted not only afk farming, map hopping, toxicity from those genuinely playing on what should be and who should receive rewards from an outnumbered map, I’m actually seeing less and less of all of the above. What we’ve had over the last few nights is lack of callouts for OJs on T3 structures because of the outnumbered buff being active. Now, you can have bad scouts or you can have players that simply don’t notice, but in my experience someone always notices these things. My fear is that either there are leeches milking these instances or the good scouts don’t say anything for fear the leeches will rain down on them.

I suggest permanently lowering it to +1 regardless of the outnumbered intensity and only applicable if you’ve been on a map the entire tic. Those that played on outnumbered maps before will continue to do so and the pip leeches will have to work harder for the measly increase.

SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026:

SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026:

When one decides what to do in a game it should be apparent what gives what rewards, from the sounds of it, everyone who played WvW before knew it gave kitten all and played it anyway, hence they made a decision about it, they hardly made the decision with a motivation “if I zerg a ton now maybe I will get rewarded sometime in 2017”. Retroactive rewards by their very nature are dumb since they reward players for a non-decision.

Ashen.2907:

When I play in PvE in my favorite zones I do so without motivation for a given or specific drop, a precursor for example, so should chance of said dropping be eliminated from anyone who does not specifically state what exactly they might be hoping for as a reward?

No, of course not. Every specific drop I’ve ever gotten has been, “a non-decision.” There is however a somewhat common, reasonable in my opinion, assumption that your time and effort spent in an endeavor in game will be rewarded by the game. Correcting what some might consider design errors in this area is not a bad thing.

Non-decision in this context refers to the fact that doing the thing giving the reward was made without knowledge of the reward, not regardless of if there was a reward or not.

But you are aware of what the rewards are/have the possibility to be, personally I don’t think extremely low drop rate items such as precursor drops really have a place, but this is hardly the place for that discussion.

I am all for WvW giving rewards and I think it not giving good rewards from the start was a bad decision, however everyone who played the gamemode were perfectly aware of it and clearly played it for the actual fun of it. Giving out rewards retroactively has as clearly shown done nothing but create animosity.

I am fairly certain every single MMORPG player is aware that not all parts of the game is equally rewarding

SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026:

The difference between a rank 1032 and a rank 9791 player is not comparable, the only difference is that they have played differently/for different amounts of time.

Ashen.2907:

Or the difference between these two individuals could be that the higher ranked individual is more skilled, perhaps due to much more practice. The difference between these two individuals could be a matter of the lower ranked player being more skilled at individual play while the higher ranked is more knowledgeable about commanding….we do not know what the difference is without examining the individuals so it is questionable to claim what the, “only difference is,” without doing so.

Keywords here are “could be” and “we do not know”, hence giving them different rewards seems a bit weird, no?

SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026:

rank in WvW means absolutely nothing.

Ashen.2907:

A puzzling inaccuracy. Earlier in your post you claim that it does mean something, giving an example, and here you contradict yourself. Rank means something, potentially one of the most important things to the developer…how much you play

What I obviously mean is that rank means nothing as a skill indicator, which it does not, that much should be clear from the post.

Rank is a combination of a few factors, mainly how much WvW one has played, and how much of that time was spent doing the most “rewarding” activity, which happens to be omniblobbing, which is very nonconductive to skillful play. Beyond rank 482 or so, it has absolutely no impact on ability to contribute, before that there is situational differences.

SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026:

And to people saying that high ranked players are the ones keeping the gamemode alive, that is completely insane, most of the high ranked players have gotten it through omniblobbing. Omniblobbing is killing the gamemode and is what makes many players steer clear of WvW. Omniblobbing is the reason there is lag in WvW among being among the reason actual fights are hard to find.

Ashen.2907:

Some interesting, “no true scotsman,” arguing there.

When you say, “most,” what percentage do you mean?

Just arguing against the omniblobbers who claim to be the reason the gamemode is still alive, while i believe they are the reason many people avoid it.

Gonna make a rough estimate that about 100% of the people with a rank of 6k+ primarily zergs or used to primarily zerg in WvW as reaching it any other way while not impossible is truly a massive time investment.

Solid points.

morrolan.9608:

Some more feedback. Its probably been said already but how do anet justify T3 armour taking far longer than legendary armour to acquire when its just ascended, albeit good looking ascended armor.

There’s no skill element to it.

Grinding rank and earning pips have no fundamental group or personal skill requirement. There’s no absolute skill required to pip well; you just need to do better than your opponents. You don’t even need to actually play- many people are earning many pips by afking.

You can’t AFK the legendary armor unless you’re obscenely rich. You can’t lowskill the legendary armor unless you’re obscenely rich.

Outnumbered is so ridiculously delicious. When I got my first outnumbered tick with even just bronze WvW rank (+1), I wondered why it didn’t always feel that good.

My Recommendation is to reduce outnumbered to doubling your current war score placement pips. As for the two pips removed from outnumbered, I would add additional Commitment levels for bronze and silver, totaling +3 possible.

I feel the only thing that needs adjusting is the Outmanned buff pips. People are always map hopping to try to get the extra pips last minute, which punishes those who have fought in an outmanned map for the entire tick. I propose changing the Outmanned buff to stacks. You get 1 stack per minute of outmanned, up to 5 stacks. You need 3 stacks to get the extra pips at the end of the tick, each new tick you reset to 0 stacks. This way as long as you are on the map for just over half of the tick you get the extra pips, and map hopping will be negated.

Falkor.7932:

Outnumbered is so ridiculously delicious. When I got my first outnumbered tick with even just bronze WvW rank (+1), I wondered why it didn’t always feel that good.

My Recommendation is to reduce outnumbered to doubling your current war score placement pips. As for the two pips removed from outnumbered, I would add additional Commitment levels for bronze and silver, totaling +3 possible.

Wouldnt that give more points to the dominating server (when outmanned vs lesser servers) and less point to the weaker servers (when outmanned vs the dominating server)?

Sounds sort of opposite to how it should be…