Guild Wars 2

This is NOTHING that an outnumbered group of WvW wall defenders can do.

Everything the devs have put in WvW advantages the Zerg.

The worst thing is point blank catas because of unbelievably bad LOS problems from above. The most dangerous place to be is up top with almost every firing angle obstructed, whether or not you’re shooting an ‘arching’ engineer mortar with indirect fire or a bow. In fact the hardest thing to do in the game would be drop a grenade over the edge of a wall!

“It’s over Anakin, I have the higher ground”….. nope.

We know, Anet knows, that’s why every server zergs!

A lot of players dont want it this way and have asked Anet to do something about it.

But this is WvW, it’s been neglected since launch, the only new map people hated, and the new devs still do not know what WvW is!

Al we can do is try to keep the game fresh, and this usually means hardcore WvW guild moving servers regularly.

Anet refuse to spend the time, money and resources on WvW, and as such it will always be the last thing to get updated. And any updates to it will be small and insignificant things which do not address ANY of the real issues with WvW! e.g. Siege Repair Hammer

Buy Some Apples.6390:

We know, Anet knows, that’s why every server zergs!

A lot of players dont want it this way and have asked Anet to do something about it.

But this is WvW, it’s been neglected since launch, the only new map people hated, and the new devs still do not know what WvW is!

Al we can do is try to keep the game fresh, and this usually means hardcore WvW guild moving servers regularly.

Anet refuse to spend the time, money and resources on WvW, and as such it will always be the last thing to get updated. And any updates to it will be small and insignificant things which do not address ANY of the real issues with WvW! e.g. Siege Repair Hammer

Which is a pity, because WvW can be the best thing about an MMO if its done right!

Superior arrowcarts says hello!

Seriously I dont know what you are on. 5 people can defend a keep against 30.

Does the 30 have the advantage? Well yeah. Of course. They are kittening 30 people and could easily attack from 2 or 3 directions, leaving those 5 spread thin. Especially if there is no deployed siege and the supply has been drained. IRL the besiegers have the advantage of numbers every kittening time, cause thats how you siege things. They will breach it sooner or later. Thats how a siege works ingame as well.

If you are arguing its 30 vs 30 where defenders have kittenty walls that dont help them, well gtfo on the open field and fight. Attacking a sieging force in the rear wins 90% of the time, because theres a kittening wall blocking their escape.

I agree. And I made a video/thread not too long ago showing what standing on the wall of a structure that’s being attacked is like.

You can view that thread and video here

As I’d stated in that thread multiple times and as I will say here, too; It was not meant as anything other than to show that it’s a death trap to stand on a wall while it’s being attacked. I wasn’t trying to stop the blob, I wasn’t trying to show tricks, nothing. Just showing that walls are ridiculously dangerous while a zerg is attacking. Like putting your hand over a stove while it’s on and saying “hot” it should be simple enough information for people to understand.

I still wish they would double the thickness of walls, personally. Not increase the health or the height, just widen them so it’s more difficult for AOE’s to cover the entire walls. You would still be able to kill AC’s and such on the walls it would just a) be more difficult and b) probably require counter siege like an open field AC or Ballista. But at least it would allow for defenders to stand on the walls without immediately getting blown up or pulled off.

I think that AoEs should only affect an area over half of the walls. Being able to entirely cover the top of a wall is silly.

It’s pretty absurd that people defending a structure can’t actually stand on the walls and defend because they will get gibbed by AoE from below, yet they are constantly Obstructed when they try to attack those below. Unless they jump up on the ledge, in which case they get CC pulled down to their death. Same goes for there being no safe place on walls to place ACs, its pretty stupid imo, a defended tower should not be able to have its defences taken out so easily. If people are defending, unless you have vastly superior numbers, you should have to move somewhere else.

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Same goes for there being no safe place on walls to place ACs, its pretty stupid imo, a defended tower should not be able to have its defences taken out so easily. If people are defending, unless you have vastly superior numbers, you should have to move somewhere else.

With well placed superior ACs how exactly is this not current WvW?

Sometimes I wonder if people WvW the same WvW I do… Going close up against a defended tower with 2+ ACs you cant hit is impossible without the 10+ people required to build enough siege fast. Going up against a fortified keep with full supplies? Hahaha… 20+ people at least and you better hope there is near zero defense because the slightest effort and you will fail. In both cases you can completely ignore people on walls anyway and do a ranged assualt, but again that require a ton of people because you need to build sheild generators to block the inevitable counter siege. Taking on a fortified keep with trebs and sheild gens require like 40+ people unless you want to be there the entire day.

So uhm… what is “vastly superior numbers”? What is your requirement on the relative strength of defenders and attackers to be allowed to take a tower or keep? I’d really like to know. Because I sure cant keep people off walls when trying to attack a tower with 5 people. They disable the siege and then they AC the cata/ram to death. Or a single ele just meteor storm it. And if that single ele fails and was stupid enough to die to AoE… didnt we outnumber him 5:1?

For many years I was convinced tat a zerg was a group of more people than you could fit in a party. We often fought off zergs of 6 or 8, and occasionally managed to raise our own zerg of perhaps 7 players. Twelve was an invincible force.

Then server linking started and we got “guested” into a top tier pairing. It turns out that you really can have a sea of red names crashing against the wall of the tower or keep you are trying to defend. Wow! It’s a very different kind of battle.

The only way to combat zerging is to scale WvW locally so numbers are much less important. Even lower map caps will just mean less players in the “vastly superior numbers” force. Ultimately

I can see the arguments about seige, condi, AoE, boon share. All of these are factors that can help if adjusted so they no longer favour bigger groups. The question is how to do this fairly and without too much imbalance. I’m not sure how this can be done, although in a previous post (here) I suggested modifying the outnumbered buff to work locally (combat range) and using it to add scaling stacks of might and damage reduction to the outnumbered players.

Any working solution would be welcomed by the majority of player I believe.

Dawdler.8521:

Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582:

Same goes for there being no safe place on walls to place ACs, its pretty stupid imo, a defended tower should not be able to have its defences taken out so easily. If people are defending, unless you have vastly superior numbers, you should have to move somewhere else.

With well placed superior ACs how exactly is this not current WvW?

Sometimes I wonder if people WvW the same WvW I do… Going close up against a defended tower with 2+ ACs you cant hit is impossible without the 10+ people required to build enough siege fast. Going up against a fortified keep with full supplies? Hahaha… 20+ people at least and you better hope there is near zero defense because the slightest effort and you will fail. In both cases you can completely ignore people on walls anyway and do a ranged assualt, but again that require a ton of people because you need to build sheild generators to block the inevitable counter siege. Taking on a fortified keep with trebs and sheild gens require like 40+ people unless you want to be there the entire day.

So uhm… what is “vastly superior numbers”? What is your requirement on the relative strength of defenders and attackers to be allowed to take a tower or keep? I’d really like to know. Because I sure cant keep people off walls when trying to attack a tower with 5 people. They disable the siege and then they AC the cata/ram to death. Or a single ele just meteor storm it. And if that single ele fails and was stupid enough to die to AoE… didnt we outnumber him 5:1?

AC defence only works if the AC’s are manned before the offending zerg starts to attack. Often times when a structure is attacked, they’re empty for a solid minute or two until defenders start to trickle in and attempt to use defensive siege but are quickly AOE’d to death.

For the sake of example; If there are 3 superior AC’s aimed at the side wall of Klovan, all of them manned prior to a zerg arriving, that zerg won’t be able to get close to the tower. They’ll probably need to build catapults way out in the swamp. How often are people inside the tower, on the defensive siege and prepared for an attack though, realistically? Very rarely.

Most times it goes more like this; A zerg comes to hit Klovan, they AOE the kitten out of the walls, kill all the siege, defenders come in and look for siege to use but it’s all been destroyed. They run around on the walls panicking for a few minutes trying to avoid all the AOE’s or trying to build more siege which immediately gets killed.

If anything, I don’t know what WvW you’re doing… Because although yes, defensive siege can be a massive pain, again, it’s only if defenders are prepared before the attack begins. And if that’s not the case for you then your server is just bad at killing siege before they start to build their own. Probably dropping rams before killing cannons and oil then scratching their heads asking how their brilliant plan was foiled.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

I still wish they would double the thickness of walls, personally. Not increase the health or the height, just widen them so it’s more difficult for AOE’s to cover the entire walls. You would still be able to kill AC’s and such on the walls it would just a) be more difficult and b) probably require counter siege like an open field AC or Ballista. But at least it would allow for defenders to stand on the walls without immediately getting blown up or pulled off.

You make important caveats there – it’s important to be able to (if difficult) counter the ACs. This being said, the bigger a group is, the more chance an ele gets a good/lucky shot on a meteor shower (my point is that we shouldn’t expect to win against such enormous groups with just a handful of defenders).

I made an upgrade post ages ago that suggested walls become taller as an objective upgrades – meaning that trebs will be able to reach further and making walls easier to defend.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

For the sake of example; If there are 3 superior AC’s aimed at the side wall of Klovan, all of them manned prior to a zerg arriving, that zerg won’t be able to get close to the tower. They’ll probably need to build catapults way out in the swamp. How often are people inside the tower, on the defensive siege and prepared for an attack though, realistically? Very rarely.

Have you ever played against German servers?

Realistically, every tower. With 6+ ACs, not 3.

It wasnt really an answer to the question though. What is “vastly superior numbers”? When should be we be allowed to take an objective?

Walls, doors, defensive siege… It’s there to delay one simple and inevitable fact – defense against a large enough force that is determined to take the objective is impossible. But that also lead to the other side of the coin – defense against an equal force is very possible. Which is the point of WvW. PvP. Objectives are a means to that end. They are the foundation. Glorifying them or making them too strong as to “move somewhere else” just because they are defended is not a good thing.

Offensive should always be stronger than defensive. Especially if the offensive forces outnumber you. Otherwise you have a boring and stale game.

Dawdler.8521:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

For the sake of example; If there are 3 superior AC’s aimed at the side wall of Klovan, all of them manned prior to a zerg arriving, that zerg won’t be able to get close to the tower. They’ll probably need to build catapults way out in the swamp. How often are people inside the tower, on the defensive siege and prepared for an attack though, realistically? Very rarely.

Have you ever played against German servers?

Realistically, every tower. With 6+ ACs, not 3.

I haven’t but in my experience, it’s rare that any defensive siege is manned before something is attacked. Sometimes there’s a scout or two inside and the zerg usually moves on to another objective instead of committing.

I do agree that getting near a tower with multiple people on AC’s is obnoxious, I just feel that in my many hours of WvW, it’s uncommon for said AC’s to live longer than 60seconds thanks to Meteor Shower doing like 9k a hit and Temporal Curtain pulling people right over and off the walls.

Malediktus.3740:

Offensive should always be stronger than defensive. Especially if the offensive forces outnumber you. Otherwise you have a boring and stale game.

I disagree with this. That is the whole point of building walls, to keep people out and make it easier to defend an area, since you have height advantage. Defensive areas should always be stronger than offense from open field. If there were no big advantage to building fortified structures, nobody would have ever built them.

It’s not boring and stale, you can move to another objective and force the defenders to move out, or use catas and force them to sally to stop you or lose the objective anyway.

If structures are not defensible by smaller numbers with ACs, then we may as well make everything camps and just remove Rams, Catapaults and Trebs from the game.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Dawdler.8521:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

For the sake of example; If there are 3 superior AC’s aimed at the side wall of Klovan, all of them manned prior to a zerg arriving, that zerg won’t be able to get close to the tower. They’ll probably need to build catapults way out in the swamp. How often are people inside the tower, on the defensive siege and prepared for an attack though, realistically? Very rarely.

Have you ever played against German servers?

Realistically, every tower. With 6+ ACs, not 3.

I haven’t but in my experience, it’s rare that any defensive siege is manned before something is attacked. Sometimes there’s a scout or two inside and the zerg usually moves on to another objective instead of committing.

I do agree that getting near a tower with multiple people on AC’s is obnoxious, I just feel that in my many hours of WvW, it’s uncommon for said AC’s to live longer than 60seconds thanks to Meteor Shower doing like 9k a hit and Temporal Curtain pulling people right over and off the walls.

And if you are doing it right, you should be stopping them getting into the tower to man that siege as well.

So, Dawdler, if they have 6 people in each tower/keep manning those ACs, then they have 30 people tied up doing that. You have the vastly superior numbers in that case and can use catas or trebs to get in.

Nowadays I prefer huge blob fights over siege wars, so you wont get any sympathy for me when you want things easier to defend. The PPT game is dead for me

Four shield generators, one omega, two sup ACs. Problem solved.

Malediktus.3740:

Offensive should always be stronger than defensive. Especially if the offensive forces outnumber you. Otherwise you have a boring and stale game.

Then why have keeps?

For waypoints and less running around. Attacking waypoints also forces the enemy to come and fight or they loose their waypoint

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

I do agree that getting near a tower with multiple people on AC’s is obnoxious, I just feel that in my many hours of WvW, it’s uncommon for said AC’s to live longer than 60seconds thanks to Meteor Shower doing like 9k a hit and Temporal Curtain pulling people right over and off the walls.

It goes both ways. Sometimes a zerg doesn’t have the people to do this. Often we have no mesmer and eles who don’t (for whatever reason) attack the carts.

I don’t know. I think there’s a critical mass where siege instantly vanishes.