Guild Wars 2

Reading this thread is giving me more headache than the bunker druid one…

Adding direct damage to the traps will simply break traps and put them into the not used category. I do not think that a solution.

Removing trappers runes is not a solution as this build can be made without them and in fact superior versions of this build.

I will suggest again given this an issue with stacking of stealth that this is where the fix needed. We can still use stealth but we can not stack it over and over again.

Now they added a 1 second cooldown to stealth attacks to the thief, a fix I do not think was required in any way shape or form. That said that mechanic can be used to address stealth stacking as in once stealth applied there a 1 second cooldown before another stealth can be applied. This would make it harder to apply stealth off a single BP. This would apply to all stealth for all classes.

This would mean changes to the mechanic that it SR and perhaps to other existing utilities and would obviously require testing as it might create other issues but it my belief that given trapper runes and no damage drops are NOT the issue while stealth stacking is, we look at stealth stacking.

Once more to traps. What is the functional difference between a thief trap applying 1 poison stack and 3 bleed stacks while the theif remains stealthed, to a stack of DH traps taking a person down completely while the DH is posing in front of a nearby towers Champion who is telling him “He looks like a tough customer” ?

A trap is a trap. It should not penalize a person to use one.

You can be Out of combat while your enemy is dying with bloods, thats isnt right.

Removing trapper runes really isn’t the solution and punishes people who use them on rangers or those weirdos who use them on dh.
A trapper thief is pretty weak sauce just move on and they can’t do a thing, it’s wvw and Condi cancer is everywhere so if you don’t have Condi clear……..how did you think things will go.

stealth as Arenanet implemented it ist the most kittened mechanic ever. It requires no skill, no awareness, no nothing. You can stand in front of somebody, press a button and vanish. Prior to reveal skills without a counter (no aoe dmg is not a counter, hands down). In other games stealth is only one tool among others assassin classes have. In Warhammer for example you could not stealth in front of an enemy, you had to be in their backs or at least at the side, damage revealed you and you could not restealth if somebody hitted you, no permastealth through stacking etc. etc. so you needed to have some kind of awareness when to use it and when not to, typically only as an opener. Trapper Rune is not the problem, it´s the mechanic how stealth work here. regardless if it is a thief, a mesmer, a druid, a scrapper, etc. etc. etc. And the worst thing is that a few classes like the thief are build around this stupidity, which means you can´t rework stealth without reworking the classes built around them. That will never happen in the sorry state the game is and even if they decided to do it, i would have zero trust in the people involved in class design.

Fat Disgrace.4275:

why are you even arguing over it lol? its a trash build thats only good for trolling and thats it.

See you in WvW or PvP then mate

New “ghost thief” user here

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

why are you even arguing over it lol? its a trash build thats only good for trolling and thats it.

See you in WvW or PvP then mate

New “ghost thief” user here

In pvp you would be even more useless since you need to be visible to contest a point. And anyone with decent condi clear can walk away from ghost thief.
Have fun killing idiots tho. I know there are plenty out there.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Plus if you bothered to read…

If people bothered to read, most of these threads would be dead since it’s always the same subject that was already discussed comming up over and over.

Rotteny.8743:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

Fat Disgrace.4275:

why are you even arguing over it lol? its a trash build thats only good for trolling and thats it.

See you in WvW or PvP then mate

New “ghost thief” user here

In pvp you would be even more useless since you need to be visible to contest a point. And anyone with decent condi clear can walk away from ghost thief.
Have fun killing idiots tho. I know there are plenty out there.

This is where you are wrong good sir and/or/madam

Funny you say this as I posted something in the PvP thread earlier today

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/About-Endure-Pain/first#post6323033

To save trouble going there, this is what I posted (as a reply):

Ragion.2831:

Cynz.9437:

It is still useful, just need to be more careful about because Anet handled braindead reveal to revs and engis – sole reason why you can’t play core thief in pvp in higher tiers /clap

A good thief can play very well revealed. Its bad thieves that constantly need to be spamming stealth. These are the ones that dont know what to do with themselves when they cant go into stealth. The problem with thief is DH and their lack of damage reduction to handle the power creep.

MY REPLY BELOW

Just because, I took a perma stealth into PvP (Both ranked and unranked) and while I find that capping was an issue (for obvious reasons), I still managed to decap and rez and support my team with points (unranked about 1st/2nd highest point count, ranked never fell below 3rd with a minimum of 135 points) and had matches where I pulled multiple people off points to hunt me, . These numbers were from 12 unranked, 10 ranked. I have gotten revealed maybe 4-5 times around people and I certainly knew what to do. Out of the 22 matches, maybe downed 4 times at most, rezzed 15+ people without fail.

Tell me again how only bad thieves spam stealth and don’t know what to do when revealed?

END REPLY

I have my matches recorded for training purposes, and will probably post something on YT after I do some some editing.

It’s not that bad thieves spam stealth.

It’s that bad thieves get carried by spamming stealth and doing the same FoTM cheese build that every other player does.

And that most other players, like those who spam stealth and get carried by spamming stealth, are effectively doing the same with whatever broken mechanic is in their respective classes or whatever easy-mode FoTM build is being used (See: bunker chronomancer last year).

All classes are equally guilty of having some really broken mechanic or build. That’s what defines how most people play in the PvP formats because there is an incentive to get free wins and direct dis-incentive to lose versus just not winning or gaining marginally less progress.

You might be saying that such a system is necessary for competitive play, and you’re right, it is. The problem is that more important for competitive play is the game be balanced, which GW2 is certainly not.

Oh look this thread again…

The following thread explains some possible counters to trapper thief. Enjoy.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Trapper-thief-is-a-joke/page/2#post6256223

one of the reason i only venture out in blobs or i hug a tower that i can run into if im alone,

its like treading in muddy water full of piranhas.

you get into a fight and your health is below 50%, if a zerk thief pops up you are finished

Remove the stealth from trapper runes add the super speed back in. Bam fixed.

Pride.1734:

Remove the stealth from trapper runes add the super speed back in. Bam fixed.

People just do not read.

You do not need trappers runes for this build. Over 80 percent of stealth comes from D/P. Generally only ONE is trap used in the utilities and that at base has a 30 second cooldown. That is 2 seconds of stealth every 30 seconds. If you trait for respite and trap mastery you can get 4 seconds stealth every 24 seconds predicated on using a heal.

Again you do not need trappers runes. Perplexity runes/torment runes/Balthazar runes are superior for this build. I would rather apply MORE conditions when I use a heal with this build then get 2 seconds stealth.

People have linked their builds showing this.

Honestly, this thief build has so many hard counters, they’re almost a non-issue (aside from near perma-stealthing.) Any class with AoE, GTAoE, PBAoE, or channeled non-target DPS hard counters this thief. These thief builds are a non-issue outside of their excessive stealthing and the runes are a non-issue.

Bandlero.6312:

Honestly, this thief build has so many hard counters, they’re almost a non-issue (aside from near perma-stealthing.) Any class with AoE, GTAoE, PBAoE, or channeled non-target DPS hard counters this thief. These thief builds are a non-issue outside of their excessive stealthing and the runes are a non-issue.

….. I feel like you don’t know what hard counter means

Jim Hunter.6821:

Bandlero.6312:

Honestly, this thief build has so many hard counters, they’re almost a non-issue (aside from near perma-stealthing.) Any class with AoE, GTAoE, PBAoE, or channeled non-target DPS hard counters this thief. These thief builds are a non-issue outside of their excessive stealthing and the runes are a non-issue.

….. I feel like you don’t know what hard counter means

Or perhaps you don’t understand my usage of it. Hard counters are strategies or things that are in exact opposition or of prevention to something. For example: Flamethrower Engineer running condi cleanse and F5 anti-stealth; firstly this engineer can hit and damage said thief while thief is stealthed (#1 doesn’t require a target); can cleanse conditions negating the damage this thief could do; and can remove the thief’s stealth. I do run (I have multiple engineer alts) an engineer with a specific build similar to what I’ve described purposely to combat thieves that generally results in these specific types of thieves coming out of stealth in a downed state. Engineer is not the only class/build capable of this.

Bandlero.6312:

Jim Hunter.6821:

Bandlero.6312:

Honestly, this thief build has so many hard counters, they’re almost a non-issue (aside from near perma-stealthing.) Any class with AoE, GTAoE, PBAoE, or channeled non-target DPS hard counters this thief. These thief builds are a non-issue outside of their excessive stealthing and the runes are a non-issue.

….. I feel like you don’t know what hard counter means

Or perhaps you don’t understand my usage of it. Hard counters are strategies or things that are in exact opposition or of prevention to something. For example: Flamethrower Engineer running condi cleanse and F5 anti-stealth; firstly this engineer can hit and damage said thief while thief is stealthed (#1 doesn’t require a target); can cleanse conditions negating the damage this thief could do; and can remove the thief’s stealth. I do run (I have multiple engineer alts) an engineer with a specific build similar to what I’ve described purposely to combat thieves that generally results in these specific types of thieves coming out of stealth in a downed state. Engineer is not the only class/build capable of this.

[off topic]
what you think “hard counter” means is irrelevant, the actual meaning is this one:
http://es.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hard%20counter

which is not what you are saying.

what you describe it could be described as soft counter like plaguing AoEs everywhere and hope for the best.

Please refrain yourself of thinking your ideas are the total truth and we all must accept them.

now going back to topic.
Every single class in game should have a trait or skill that denies the stealth in a hard mode.

the actual reveal durations vs CD is ridiculous. The balanced ratio would be 5 seconds revealed for every 10 seconds CD. So Gaze of Darkness with 20secs cd should apply 10 seconds revealed.

Warrior needs a reveal on hit with a melee weapon (on short CD\short reveal) and necro need this as well, maybe a pbaoe on long CD (but also long reveal if it hits).
Ranger needs the sic’em adjusted so it’s possible to use it in permastealthed targets, now it needs first to be able to target(impossible if the target doesn’t stay visible for more than a second) it and the reveal is too short for a 40 CD skill.

Thief(and mesmer) will have to relay in actually playing the class to it fullest (thief with mobility and dodges, mesmer with clones ) to become good. Now it is just ridiculous how much stealth this classes have and how little other classes can do.

This changes also will affect other classes with shorter stealth duration but also problematic like the bunker druid. Being able to reveal them and keep them revealed will break their rotations and positioning.

So i think this change would be good overall although we all know all the bad stealth theefs would QQ everywere.

Bandlero.6312:

Honestly, this thief build has so many hard counters, they’re almost a non-issue (aside from near perma-stealthing.)

There are no hard counters to the updated Ghost Thief builds. At best there are a handful of soft counters none of which prevents the build from hitting the reset button.

As noted this build running in a pack is very strong. Two of these will off even strong condi cleanse builds.

None of the meta roaming builds have “real” hard counters. That’s why they’re cheesy and popular to begin with.

They’re stupid, poorly-designed and/or poorly implemented build ideas. The ghost thief is poorly-designed because D/P + SA stealth stacking is poorly-designed.

I think the point is this is bad for the game. Not that it has counters or that it’s not an efficient build or that proficient players with sufficient condi clear can deal with it.

That it simply exists is the problem, you want to encourage new players to try WvW.
You get new players coming out to WvW and running into a duo of 2 thieves with this spec. Do you think that player wants to return to WvW? He just ran around getting a bucket load of condis on him from some players he never saw. Then fell over dead.

This is the important part, in a game that encourages “active combat”. Where’s the play/counterplay in a fight where you see neither of your 2 opponents the whole fight and eventually fall over from condi spam? How is this encouraging new players to try WvW?

In a fight with 2 ppl that are visible at least a part of the time, even the newbiest WvW player can ‘play his hand’ so to speak and try to land his skills. He gets to engage in the combat, and interact with his adversaries.

Chorazin.4107:

I think the point is this is bad for the game. Not that it has counters or that it’s not an efficient build or that proficient players with sufficient condi clear can deal with it.

That it simply exists is the problem, you want to encourage new players to try WvW.
You get new players coming out to WvW and running into a duo of 2 thieves with this spec. Do you think that player wants to return to WvW? He just ran around getting a bucket load of condis on him from some players he never saw. Then fell over dead.

This is the important part, in a game that encourages “active combat”. Where’s the play/counterplay in a fight where you see neither of your 2 opponents the whole fight and eventually fall over from condi spam? How is this encouraging new players to try WvW?

In a fight with 2 ppl that are visible at least a part of the time, even the newbiest WvW player can ‘play his hand’ so to speak and try to land his skills. He gets to engage in the combat, and interact with his adversaries.

This has been said in not so many words over the last few pages. I even pressed on some of the people that don’t want to see this changed with a simple question of:

“Do you think any class should be able to do damage to your health bar and never leave stealth?”

Yet as always people divert around and try not to answer because we all know the answer is no. It’s sad to see this having to be repeatedly be explained to forum users about the topic.

apharma.3741:

Chorazin.4107:

I think the point is this is bad for the game. Not that it has counters or that it’s not an efficient build or that proficient players with sufficient condi clear can deal with it.

That it simply exists is the problem, you want to encourage new players to try WvW.
You get new players coming out to WvW and running into a duo of 2 thieves with this spec. Do you think that player wants to return to WvW? He just ran around getting a bucket load of condis on him from some players he never saw. Then fell over dead.

This is the important part, in a game that encourages “active combat”. Where’s the play/counterplay in a fight where you see neither of your 2 opponents the whole fight and eventually fall over from condi spam? How is this encouraging new players to try WvW?

In a fight with 2 ppl that are visible at least a part of the time, even the newbiest WvW player can ‘play his hand’ so to speak and try to land his skills. He gets to engage in the combat, and interact with his adversaries.

This has been said in not so many words over the last few pages. I even pressed on some of the people that don’t want to see this changed with a simple question of:

“Do you think any class should be able to do damage to your health bar and never leave stealth?”

Yet as always people divert around and try not to answer because we all know the answer is no. It’s sad to see this having to be repeatedly be explained to forum users about the topic.

No that is not the issue with those objecting to the substance of this thread.

The issue is that the people who want the build nerfed have no clue as to what makes it work and are suggesting solutions that will compromise legitimate builds without addressing this build at all.

There will then be the same group of voices making the same complaints resulting in more builds compromised.

The build uses one trap yet is called a condi trapper when there nothing op at all with thief traps , and the people keep complaining about trapper runes when there superior versions that do not use trappers.

As such , given the suggested cures worse than the overstated problems , until there a proper solution proposed it better they be left as is and people just learn to deal with them.

Removal of Runes of the trapper is ridiculous..It would be a complete waste of time using them primarily for the stealth because your revealed upon trigger.

Mokk.2397:

Removal of Runes of the trapper is ridiculous..It would be a complete waste of time using them primarily for the stealth because your revealed upon trigger.

You don’t get revealed on thief traps because they don’t have direct damage, and only direct damage reveals you from stealth.

However, as pointed out multiple times in this thread, ghost thief don’t need runes of the trapper to remain permanently invisible, making it even more dangerous because they have access to other runes like Perplexity/Tormenting/Krait/Balthazar which increase their condition kit.

Of course… You’ll only die to a ghost thief if: you are not running condi removal; you are trying to fight it; there are multiple of them against you alone. The best way to deal with ghost thief is to not deal with them at all. “Don’t feed the troll” and walk away…

If every class should have a trait/skill fo reveal then thief should also get skill/trait to disable enemy passive procs and or invul’s too. Thief already has it hard in wvw, all it can do nowadays is gank and or run away, s/d was thr main dueling weapon and the days where they could put up a decent fight are long gone, sure we can kill somw people or even baddies in out numbered situations but vs compitent players it’s and if said thief dosnt want to run away it’d going to be a very up hill fight. you can’t put say that all needs a reveal just because of this 1 troll build.

I am not defending this build, I don’t play it or never played it but I hAve in countered a lot and all they really do is just troll around and they are far from game breaking wich is why nothing will get changed to it. If anything g blame the Condi application in wvw it self, not the builds.

babazhook.6805:

No that is not the issue with those objecting to the substance of this thread.

The issue is that the people who want the build nerfed have no clue as to what makes it work and are suggesting solutions that will compromise legitimate builds without addressing this build at all.

There will then be the same group of voices making the same complaints resulting in more builds compromised.

The build uses one trap yet is called a condi trapper when there nothing op at all with thief traps , and the people keep complaining about trapper runes when there superior versions that do not use trappers.

As such , given the suggested cures worse than the overstated problems , until there a proper solution proposed it better they be left as is and people just learn to deal with them.

I know it only uses 1 trap however it is the function of that 1 trap that you have to look at. The trap is used to keep someone in the caltrops to stack up all the bleeds which is mostly the condition that kills them. Without either trip wire or needle trap to keep people in the caltrops most people can simply run or cripple walk out of it without too much trouble.

Sure they will take a fair bit of damage but they will have healed it up before the next caltrop and if they keep moving the uncatchable caltrops won’t put much bleed on. Additionally as others have noted the thief would have to take the reduced cool down on deceptions trait to stay perma stealthed giving up condition cleanse in stealth which means conditions will be an effective counter.

The other options to make this build not in the grounds of damage while perma stealth would be to give all classes reveal, reduce D/P stealth with SA or reduce other aspects of the class for example condition durations. All these would compromise more builds than a targeted change to traps and you’d get even more vocal “thief mains” crying about the class being gutted, needing the most skill etc etc.

By all means I think most people would welcome stealth as a mechanic being overhauled to be more involving on both sides but I just don’t see that happening.

Jeknar.6184:

Mokk.2397:

Removal of Runes of the trapper is ridiculous..It would be a complete waste of time using them primarily for the stealth because your revealed upon trigger.

You don’t get revealed on thief traps because they don’t have direct damage, and only direct damage reveals you from stealth.

However, as pointed out multiple times in this thread, ghost thief don’t need runes of the trapper to remain permanently invisible, making it even more dangerous because they have access to other runes like Perplexity/Tormenting/Krait/Balthazar which increase their condition kit.

Of course… You’ll only die to a ghost thief if: you are not running condi removal; you are trying to fight it; there are multiple of them against you alone. The best way to deal with ghost thief is to not deal with them at all. “Don’t feed the troll” and walk away…

This….this is what makes you more likely a target. To walk away you are giving them the thrill of the hunt. This is what they feed off of. To do this is to feed the trolls. There is 1 trick that any class can do that will make them run or they will get downed and stomped.

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

No that is not the issue with those objecting to the substance of this thread.

The issue is that the people who want the build nerfed have no clue as to what makes it work and are suggesting solutions that will compromise legitimate builds without addressing this build at all.

There will then be the same group of voices making the same complaints resulting in more builds compromised.

The build uses one trap yet is called a condi trapper when there nothing op at all with thief traps , and the people keep complaining about trapper runes when there superior versions that do not use trappers.

As such , given the suggested cures worse than the overstated problems , until there a proper solution proposed it better they be left as is and people just learn to deal with them.

I know it only uses 1 trap however it is the function of that 1 trap that you have to look at. The trap is used to keep someone in the caltrops to stack up all the bleeds which is mostly the condition that kills them. Without either trip wire or needle trap to keep people in the caltrops most people can simply run or cripple walk out of it without too much trouble.

Sure they will take a fair bit of damage but they will have healed it up before the next caltrop and if they keep moving the uncatchable caltrops won’t put much bleed on. Additionally as others have noted the thief would have to take the reduced cool down on deceptions trait to stay perma stealthed giving up condition cleanse in stealth which means conditions will be an effective counter.

The other options to make this build not in the grounds of damage while perma stealth would be to give all classes reveal, reduce D/P stealth with SA or reduce other aspects of the class for example condition durations. All these would compromise more builds than a targeted change to traps and you’d get even more vocal “thief mains” crying about the class being gutted, needing the most skill etc etc.

By all means I think most people would welcome stealth as a mechanic being overhauled to be more involving on both sides but I just don’t see that happening.

Reduced cooldown on deceptions…most of these ppl using this build run SA/DA/Tr. You don’t need reduced cooldowns on deception abilities to have perma stealth…trust me.

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

No that is not the issue with those objecting to the substance of this thread.

The issue is that the people who want the build nerfed have no clue as to what makes it work and are suggesting solutions that will compromise legitimate builds without addressing this build at all.

There will then be the same group of voices making the same complaints resulting in more builds compromised.

The build uses one trap yet is called a condi trapper when there nothing op at all with thief traps , and the people keep complaining about trapper runes when there superior versions that do not use trappers.

As such , given the suggested cures worse than the overstated problems , until there a proper solution proposed it better they be left as is and people just learn to deal with them.

I know it only uses 1 trap however it is the function of that 1 trap that you have to look at. The trap is used to keep someone in the caltrops to stack up all the bleeds which is mostly the condition that kills them. Without either trip wire or needle trap to keep people in the caltrops most people can simply run or cripple walk out of it without too much trouble.

Sure they will take a fair bit of damage but they will have healed it up before the next caltrop and if they keep moving the uncatchable caltrops won’t put much bleed on. Additionally as others have noted the thief would have to take the reduced cool down on deceptions trait to stay perma stealthed giving up condition cleanse in stealth which means conditions will be an effective counter.

The other options to make this build not in the grounds of damage while perma stealth would be to give all classes reveal, reduce D/P stealth with SA or reduce other aspects of the class for example condition durations. All these would compromise more builds than a targeted change to traps and you’d get even more vocal “thief mains” crying about the class being gutted, needing the most skill etc etc.

By all means I think most people would welcome stealth as a mechanic being overhauled to be more involving on both sides but I just don’t see that happening.

Poor response. You are now arguing against the immob on the trap. I can immob a person and drop caltrops without stealthing at all.You are against a valid tactic used by EVERY class and focus it on thieves as such I can not take you seriously. You are saying “I want caltrops to be useless so people can heal up and just walk out of it”.

Do you want to know how many times I have been stun locked in a fire field or pulled into a stack of traps by the DH pull? One of the consequences of being immobed is you will be easier to inflict damage upon . It a function of the condition and a tactc everyone uses against an enemy to some degree.

Caltrops are a VISIBLE field. If you do not have a means by which to deal with an immob while standing in them find one because if you do not have such a method my thief can kill you without stealthing at all. You are actually arguing that the person caught be given an opportunity to heal up before the next attack. How about we apply that to a ranger using tangle weed then taking the person down with his pet and the drop of multiple traps on said person?

You are using an argument against perma stealth to break perfectly legitimate tactics used by persons who need not stealth at all . You are using a Trojan horse argument in an attempt to weaken traps and caltrops which are in now way shape or form OP or need weakening.

So hard counter is spam AoE in random direction and hope that thief player is totally braindead?

babazhook.6805:

apharma.3741:

babazhook.6805:

No that is not the issue with those objecting to the substance of this thread.

The issue is that the people who want the build nerfed have no clue as to what makes it work and are suggesting solutions that will compromise legitimate builds without addressing this build at all.

There will then be the same group of voices making the same complaints resulting in more builds compromised.

The build uses one trap yet is called a condi trapper when there nothing op at all with thief traps , and the people keep complaining about trapper runes when there superior versions that do not use trappers.

As such , given the suggested cures worse than the overstated problems , until there a proper solution proposed it better they be left as is and people just learn to deal with them.

I know it only uses 1 trap however it is the function of that 1 trap that you have to look at. The trap is used to keep someone in the caltrops to stack up all the bleeds which is mostly the condition that kills them. Without either trip wire or needle trap to keep people in the caltrops most people can simply run or cripple walk out of it without too much trouble.

Sure they will take a fair bit of damage but they will have healed it up before the next caltrop and if they keep moving the uncatchable caltrops won’t put much bleed on. Additionally as others have noted the thief would have to take the reduced cool down on deceptions trait to stay perma stealthed giving up condition cleanse in stealth which means conditions will be an effective counter.

The other options to make this build not in the grounds of damage while perma stealth would be to give all classes reveal, reduce D/P stealth with SA or reduce other aspects of the class for example condition durations. All these would compromise more builds than a targeted change to traps and you’d get even more vocal “thief mains” crying about the class being gutted, needing the most skill etc etc.

By all means I think most people would welcome stealth as a mechanic being overhauled to be more involving on both sides but I just don’t see that happening.

Poor response. You are now arguing against the immob on the trap. I can immob a person and drop caltrops without stealthing at all.You are against a valid tactic used by EVERY class and focus it on thieves as such I can not take you seriously. You are saying “I want caltrops to be useless so people can heal up and just walk out of it”.

Do you want to know how many times I have been stun locked in a fire field or pulled into a stack of traps by the DH pull? One of the consequences of being immobed is you will be easier to inflict damage upon . It a function of the condition and a tactc everyone uses against an enemy to some degree.

Caltrops are a VISIBLE field. If you do not have a means by which to deal with an immob while standing in them find one because if you do not have such a method my thief can kill you without stealthing at all. You are actually arguing that the person caught be given an opportunity to heal up before the next attack. How about we apply that to a ranger using tangle weed then taking the person down with his pet and the drop of multiple traps on said person?

You are using an argument against perma stealth to break perfectly legitimate tactics used by persons who need not stealth at all . You are using a Trojan horse argument in an attempt to weaken traps and caltrops which are in now way shape or form OP or need weakening.

Being immobilised for a burst is fine when you can see the opponent but the thing with this build is you don’t see or know anything till you are immobilised in caltrops. Don’t be that guy, you know exactly why ghost thief uses trap runes and needle trap.

My arguement is that if the needle trap did damage the ghost thief has to do 1 of 2 things.

1) Keep using the trap but be revealed when they condi bomb someone thus giving a few seconds where they can be attacked and countered.

or

2) Stop using the trap to stay perma stealthed but they can no longer lock people in the condition bombs for applying as much bleeds as possible while being invisible.

Please don’t twist my words and make me out to wanting to nerf thief attacking. The whole reason I am against this build is because you can stay 100% in stealth while doing considerable damage to a persons health bar. Nothing more nothing less. If this build was revealed when attacking it wouldn’t be discussed at all but that’s not what happens and there is no other class that can attack and stay stealthed at all.

apharma.3741:

I know it only uses 1 trap however it is the function of that 1 trap that you have to look at. The trap is used to keep someone in the caltrops to stack up all the bleeds which is mostly the condition that kills them. Without either trip wire or needle trap to keep people in the caltrops most people can simply run or cripple walk out of it without too much trouble.

Confusion and Poison croak most players. Dropping 11 stacks of Confusion before a player even knows they are in a fight is what often does the deed. Just getting those stacks off will often take a huge chunk of their life.

I’ll repeat what I said in the other thread in the thief subforum.

I fought one of these the day before yesterday. He was paired with an engi who was skilled enough to pose an issue along with a full camp of enemy NPCs. The engi eventually left because he couldn’t kill me even with the help of this “OP” build.

The ghost thief left soon after because he was invisible and couldn’t contest the point. Nor could he actually do enough damage. Half the time I saw him lay down his traps and dodged over the point to trigger the traps without taking damage. A little knowledge neutered an already weak build.

Honestly, I don’t understand these threads. Sure, this build can win if two or three get together and gank people. But two or more thieves of any of the other builds out there will be even more deadly ganking people. Like, being outnumbered unfairly will get you killed in WvW. Any time I see people complaining it is always “I was jumped by three people and I died, so OP, please nerf.”

I died to a stealth thief once.
Whenever havoking, I now carry stealth disruptors and 10 supply so I can cheese the cheese.
Suffice it to say, never died again.

saerni.2584:

I’ll repeat what I said in the other thread in the thief subforum.

I fought one of these the day before yesterday. He was paired with an engi who was skilled enough to pose an issue along with a full camp of enemy NPCs. The engi eventually left because he couldn’t kill me even with the help of this “OP” build.

The ghost thief left soon after because he was invisible and couldn’t contest the point. Nor could he actually do enough damage. Half the time I saw him lay down his traps and dodged over the point to trigger the traps without taking damage. A little knowledge neutered an already weak build.

Honestly, I don’t understand these threads. Sure, this build can win if two or three get together and gank people. But two or more thieves of any of the other builds out there will be even more deadly ganking people. Like, being outnumbered unfairly will get you killed in WvW. Any time I see people complaining it is always “I was jumped by three people and I died, so OP, please nerf.”

How people fair against this build has no bearing on whether there should be alterations to this spec.

For starters I dont think the spec performs anywhere near as well as the needs a serious nerfing lotus blossom perma dodge spam spec. And yes, most experienced players know whats happening and how to avoid it. You could just run a perma resistance condi Malyx rev and ignore the ghost thief entirely.

That is not what it’s about. It is about whether or not this build is good for the game. Especially a game that promotes fast paced action combat as one of it’s main selling points.

Where is the play and counter play with an adversary that is never visible? How does this build encourage new players to the game that encounter it to return to play again? You need your enemies to be at least visible part of the time so you can play your hand. This allows you to engage in the combat and interact with your enemies. This is where the fun comes from in GW2 combat.

You want to encourage as many new players as possible to the game. Yes you can take stealth traps with you. But i feel they should be a bonus to your kit, not a necessity.

Griefers will find a new build. A more effective build. What I’m trying to say—for all those would be ghosts—is they can be more effective and have more fun without using this fairly useless build. You are probably right about it discouraging new players. But I’m trying to convince the ghosts. Telling them about the tears and rage is not, imo, going to change their minds.

saerni.2584:

Griefers will find a new build. A more effective build. What I’m trying to say—for all those would be ghosts—is they can be more effective and have more fun without using this fairly useless build.

But they obviously cant. Otherwise they wouldnt be using it.

But the meta is overrated. People often use what others tell them is good without trying other things.

Can ghost work? Anything can work. But some things will be superior and I encourage others to try out the alternatives.

Draeyon.4392:

I died to a stealth thief once.
Whenever havoking, I now carry stealth disruptors and 10 supply so I can cheese the cheese.
Suffice it to say, never died again.

you better stay in camp or tower to get the supplies again because theres nothing preventing the thief to hop away with shortbow and come back after the reveal fades, if you did that to me i certainly would hunt you just to prove you have no power

Anybody explain what the kitten a ghost thief is?

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

Anybody explain what the kitten a ghost thief is?

A thief that can stealth 100% of the time and still apply damage.

The opinions on what is and what isn’t 100% stealth time differ though.

Chorazin.4107:

For starters I dont think the spec performs anywhere near as well as the needs a serious nerfing lotus blossom perma dodge spam spec. And yes, most experienced players know whats happening and how to avoid it. You could just run a perma resistance condi Malyx rev and ignore the ghost thief entirely.

Why is that boonshare mesmer build on the permalink? And why Chaotic Interuption and not Bountiful Disillusionment? Wtf is this?

Jeknar.6184:

Why is that boonshare mesmer build on the permalink? And why Chaotic Interuption and not Bountiful Disillusionment? Wtf is this?

wrong link, fixed

Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318:

Anybody explain what the kitten a ghost thief is?

It’s a cheese build that has zero valid counters (other than running away), which deals damage while in perma stealth. It’s completely useless in big fights, not the best killer either, but it’s very annoying to fight against because you can’t see them.

I will admit it is a cheese build. I have been using my ghost thief while im between toons (trying to come up with a good build for another toon but in the meantime in using this for now, and only been using it for about a week). It is a novelty build that is surprisingly effective on most people.

My advice, either keep running (as we are not as fast as normal thieves), or if you are going to fight/hide where we can get you, bring a stealth trap or lots of condi cleanses. AOE’s don’t do squat and neither do condis (dire gear and we regen/clear condis while in stealth)

If you see a black powder spot on the ground, stand in it. We will either hit you (revealing ourselves) or shorten our stealth time, wasting initiative. If we have no initiative, we cannot stealth (most of us don’t use SR).

Reveals for less than 6 sec wont work (shortbow helps us make sure of that).

If you are going to run, bring swiftness as we run faster while stealthed (run in front, drop trap, start condi burst) If we have to waste init on SB5 to catch up, that’s a waste of initiative unless we know 100% we are going to down you.

Rev/Scrapper/Ranger reveals wont help as after our burst, we distance ourselves to check our stealth time.

TL;DR – Bring Stealth Traps and a way to catch us after we are revealed.

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

TL;DR – Bring Stealth Traps and a way to catch us after we are revealed.

Stealth trap takes ages to deploy. A Thief will see it and just not engage, the moment you move from your spot they’ll attack.

maddoctor.2738:

Bigpapasmurf.5623:

TL;DR – Bring Stealth Traps and a way to catch us after we are revealed.

Stealth trap takes ages to deploy. A Thief will see it and just not engage, the moment you move from your spot they’ll attack.

Not necessarily

If we are dropping a field to HS through, we are focused on hitting the field, not always on the target, until were done stealthing. If a buddy of mine is on and were roaming, he watches out for the trap. If I see someone in the distance and they see me stealth, they know I may be coming and if they drop it then, I wont see it.

NOW, if im stealthed already and I see you drop the trap, I will obv note where it is and wait you out. If you bail, ill either wait for you to leave and trigger the trap to get rid of it in case I see someone else around there later, or I will chase.

these trap thiefs are pathetic (coming from a thief) i do agree also once trap is triggered they should be revealed. simple as that, i personally fight these trap thiefs just fine i dunno if thief vs thief makes the difference but i just ram down a reveal trap and wait.

none the less, i also understand why people play like this cus any other build (without d/p) is far less powerfull and maybe these guys just wanna troll around till they buffed up their weapon set again.