Guild Wars 2

Pretty sure other parts of the game are missing the build diversity now, but meh I don’t play them so wouldn’t know. I say bring back the old trait system, the supposed “confusing” one that we’d managed perfectly well using for 2+ years, where I can invest partially into trait lines as I see fit.

To make it less confusing make minor traits 1/2 a point, so obviously a whole point for the nest step the major trait. Then give us all 12 points. Most importantly “Wait for interesting new builds and balance accordingly”.

Short and sweet and to the point.

Agreed, so sick of this dumbed down gameplay the gaming industry is employing on consumers. Dumbing down America and the European Nation, sad that 10 years ago Real time strategy was hot, a genre that required a brain.

Now we have crony capitalism putting out dumbed down content in the west, ez mode generation requiring 0 brain.

Please stop making things easier, old trait system allowed some variation at least, some customization, variety was fun.

What are you all talking about? There are at least 18 viable builds for you to play! 18 isn’t a large enough number?

2 viable meta build per class. and 9 CLASSES = 18 builds to choose from for wvsw ALONE!

What we really need is a new set of changeable trait specs called “class change”. That allow you to choose from 1 of the 9 available classes and switch to it ‘on the fly’. Problem solved!

Actually we have a few builds that work for 1v1, a few builds that work well in small groups and a few builds that work in zergs. That is not diversity….

Mmm, I suppose it matters what “diversity” means to you.

You can argue that GW2 is less “diverse” than GW1 when it comes to builds.

For example, the condition Confusion in GW2 essentially consolidated skills/spells found in GW1 (Backfire, Empathy, Visions of Regret off the top of my head.) The boon Protection consolidated many of the skills found GW1 Monk’s protection line, and Swiftness consolidated most of the speed skills found in GW1.

To me diversity is when your build makes you play differently. There are cases this isn’t true in gw2.

In zerg fighting on necro in the current pirate ship meta you end up playing the same as whether you are condi or power by spending most of your time in staff, and using utilities for “big bomb.” So in order to find more diviersity you either roam (though I think most are usually condi-somethingmurathers) or switch classes.

My only issue in GW2 when trying to find diversity you usually have to grind to achieve it before being able to play differently.

Man, you have no idea what your talking about. There are so many builds in use currently, our server cant even detirmen which one would be meta.

SloRules.3560:

Man, you have no idea what your talking about. There are so many builds in use currently, our server cant even detirmen which one would be meta.

With the current trait system and the must have HoT trait line we have less builds. Fact.

I don’t know howto make someone do basic counting better…..

Yes please. I liked the idea of trying out builds others hadn’t considered because there were so many variables. I liked having a build no one else had.

Would it hurt the game any to at least give folks choices?

Jayne.9251:

Yes please. I liked the idea of trying out builds others hadn’t considered because there were so many variables. I liked having a build no one else had.

Would it hurt the game any to at least give folks choices?

It would be unfair to the people that aren’t creative or intelligent.

I prefer new system. For example in case of elementalist there is a lot more diversity than there used to be.

Dal.5872:

SloRules.3560:

Man, you have no idea what your talking about. There are so many builds in use currently, our server cant even detirmen which one would be meta.

With the current trait system and the must have HoT trait line we have less builds. Fact.

I don’t know howto make someone do basic counting better…..

In my guild we currently have:
4 guardian builds
2 warrior builds
3 revenant builds, with another 2 in consideration
1 ranger build
2 engineer builds
3 elementalist builds, with 1 in testing phases
3 necromancer builds, with 2 more condi builds being developed
2 mesmer builds, with 3 in consideration

All those builds diverse in atleast 1 traitline, a full set of gear, weapons or utility skills.
And the thing is, those builds are optimized for certain parties/roles so none of them is inferior to other, if just put in right party and played in right style.

So dont bullkitten me about no build diversity.

SloRules.3560:

Dal.5872:

SloRules.3560:

Man, you have no idea what your talking about. There are so many builds in use currently, our server cant even detirmen which one would be meta.

With the current trait system and the must have HoT trait line we have less builds. Fact.

I don’t know howto make someone do basic counting better…..

In my guild we currently have:
4 guardian builds
2 warrior builds
3 revenant builds, with another 2 in consideration
1 ranger build
2 engineer builds
3 elementalist builds, with 1 in testing phases
3 necromancer builds, with 2 more condi builds being developed
2 mesmer builds, with 3 in consideration

All those builds diverse in atleast 1 traitline, a full set of gear, weapons or utility skills.
And the thing is, those builds are optimized for certain parties/roles so none of them is inferior to other, if just put in right party and played in right style.

So dont bullkitten me about no build diversity.

This was more for people who didn’t want to use existing “meta” enforced builds.

The previous trait line let you pick up to five variables. The current one is three. And some of those old five variables were one from each line, etc …

Three vs five variables = fewer choices.

SloRules.3560:

Dal.5872:

SloRules.3560:

Man, you have no idea what your talking about. There are so many builds in use currently, our server cant even detirmen which one would be meta.

With the current trait system and the must have HoT trait line we have less builds. Fact.

I don’t know howto make someone do basic counting better…..

In my guild we currently have:
4 guardian builds
2 warrior builds
3 revenant builds, with another 2 in consideration
1 ranger build
2 engineer builds
3 elementalist builds, with 1 in testing phases
3 necromancer builds, with 2 more condi builds being developed
2 mesmer builds, with 3 in consideration

All those builds diverse in atleast 1 traitline, a full set of gear, weapons or utility skills.
And the thing is, those builds are optimized for certain parties/roles so none of them is inferior to other, if just put in right party and played in right style.

So dont bullkitten me about no build diversity.

Brilliant well done, I bet half of those builds will not be even considered by decent guilds/wvw veterans for good reasons. 5 builds for Mesmer!! Lol… Some of those must be proper rubbish. You also don’t appear to have any builds for thief. So a whole profession just with no builds at all.

Stop being a pedantic moron, there are less viable builds. Go look at PvP it’s kitten with WvW following closely behind. If you can’t see that you need to remove the wool from your eyes.

What do you consider a build? For example in old system a mediatation guardian could be

0 5 30 15 20
or for example
0 5 30 5 30

If all weapons and gear are the same is that 2 different builds?

Or what if 2 warriors go 0 0 10 30 30 but they have one trait different. If they have same stats and same weapons is that 2 different builds?

My answer to both would be “They are the same build”. There would be only a minor difference how both play, most players wouldn’t even notice it. But nowadays say if elementalist takes Air over Fire for example it is already a big difference in the build.

Just because we had more possible options to tick did not make more builds viable. If you are given option to choose between really bad trait, another trait that gives very little under certain conditions and really great trait, everyone will always choose same thing. A lot of these old traits got included in baseline skills or combined into one single trait instead of picking 4 different traits to get same result.

Only thing that you can argue about is how strong elite specs are so they are mostly required. If the elites would get nerfed down to same strength as other traits, you would end up with much more options while also reducing powercreep. But of course it also means there is less point to buy HoT and so Anet has to reduce new content produced.

Coinhead.7591:

What do you consider a build? For example in old system a mediatation guardian could be

0 5 30 15 20
or for example
0 5 30 5 30

If all weapons and gear are the same is that 2 different builds?

Or what if 2 warriors go 0 0 10 30 30 but they have one trait different. If they have same stats and same weapons is that 2 different builds?

My answer to both would be “They are the same build”. There would be only a minor difference how both play, most players wouldn’t even notice it. But nowadays say if elementalist takes Air over Fire for example it is already a big difference in the build.

Not really only options there were. For example I used to play meditation guard with scepter+f and gs with 20 15 30 0 5 or 20 10 30 5 5. It’s just sheeple who keep the flaps next to their heads and focus on that one thing in front of them being “meta”. When there was so many more viable options.

I like the current one better as a Necro.

There is nothing wrong with the new System itself.

The problem is more in the balance between specific traits and trait-lines.

That and Specialization Power Creep.

Weli.4568:

Coinhead.7591:

What do you consider a build? For example in old system a mediatation guardian could be

0 5 30 15 20
or for example
0 5 30 5 30

If all weapons and gear are the same is that 2 different builds?

Or what if 2 warriors go 0 0 10 30 30 but they have one trait different. If they have same stats and same weapons is that 2 different builds?

My answer to both would be “They are the same build”. There would be only a minor difference how both play, most players wouldn’t even notice it. But nowadays say if elementalist takes Air over Fire for example it is already a big difference in the build.

Not really only options there were. For example I used to play meditation guard with scepter+f and gs with 20 15 30 0 5 or 20 10 30 5 5. It’s just sheeple who keep the flaps next to their heads and focus on that one thing in front of them being “meta”. When there was so many more viable options.

You missed the question. The point was not to say that those 2 builds were all possible builds, it was to ask “How do you define a build?”

You gave a good example of two different medi guard trait setups, but in my opinion those two builds (Scepter+F/GS 20 15 30 0 5 and 20 10 30 5 5) are actually the same build. Do you think those 2 are really considered different builds? For clarity’s sake I feel I need to say that I do think that for example 0 5 30 5 30 and 20 10 30 5 5 are indeed very different builds.

FogLeg.9354:

Just because we had more possible options to tick did not make more builds viable. If you are given option to choose between really bad trait, another trait that gives very little under certain conditions and really great trait, everyone will always choose same thing.

Depends on what you consider a bad trait.

I ran a hybrid build all the way up until they simplified it and it was fantastic.

The status quo is not necessarily the best pick for your playstyle. It may be the “easiest” pick, but not always the best.

If there’s no impact to the game with re-opening up the trait lines, then let me feel free to pick bad trait lines.

I’ll politely bow afterwards.

Coinhead.7591:

You missed the question. The point was not to say that those 2 builds were all possible builds, it was to ask “How do you define a build?”

You gave a good example of two different medi guard trait setups, but in my opinion those two builds (Scepter+F/GS 20 15 30 0 5 and 20 10 30 5 5) are actually the same build. Do you think those 2 are really considered different builds? For clarity’s sake I feel I need to say that I do think that for example 0 5 30 5 30 and 20 10 30 5 5 are indeed very different builds.

Yea true that, just felt that the two that you pointed out were too similar even tho that 5 point difference could affect the way you play. Not much but still some

I used to run hybrid builds (or my own, as i’d call them) which worked very well for me, spread across multiple trait lines.

The dumbing down and restricting in to three traits destroyed all my builds (well, so did elites to be fair..) and made it a much less interesting game to play- hence why I’ve pretty much quit.

Ah yes build diversity. GW2 has always suffered on that front but it was certainly made a lot worse when the specialisation update was put in place. Now most classes can just have everything and there is no cerebral draw to this game any longer. The worse offender on this front is most definitely Scrapper. You can have absolute everything in one build now with no discernible weaknesses – unlike Engineer pre-specialisations that had all sorts of complex weaknesses based on your build preference.

If anything….give us back a good combat system!

SloRules.3560:

Dal.5872:

SloRules.3560:

Man, you have no idea what your talking about. There are so many builds in use currently, our server cant even detirmen which one would be meta.

With the current trait system and the must have HoT trait line we have less builds. Fact.

I don’t know howto make someone do basic counting better…..

In my guild we currently have:
4 guardian builds
2 warrior builds
3 revenant builds, with another 2 in consideration
1 ranger build
2 engineer builds
3 elementalist builds, with 1 in testing phases
3 necromancer builds, with 2 more condi builds being developed
2 mesmer builds, with 3 in consideration

All those builds diverse in atleast 1 traitline, a full set of gear, weapons or utility skills.
And the thing is, those builds are optimized for certain parties/roles so none of them is inferior to other, if just put in right party and played in right style.

So dont bullkitten me about no build diversity.

Any videos of those builds and comps in action?

Dal.5872:

SloRules.3560:

Dal.5872:

SloRules.3560:

RABBLE

RABBLE.

RABBLE RABBLE

RABBLE

… pedantic moron, blah blah

NB4 everyone Google’s pedantic.
on another note, anet would be kings to bring in multi professions as in gw1. That would open up all the build diversity you need while balancing in the process. The balance would come from the amount of diversity in the builds. NO matter what anet does, there will always be skills and builds that are way op to other classes and builds. Every class will have at least one of these builds.

Lol really if you want build diversity then GW2 is the wrong game for you. I don’t see GW2 ever getting build diversity back till Anet adds more elite specs lines in the skill trees.

Jayne.9251:

Yes please. I liked the idea of trying out builds others hadn’t considered because there were so many variables. I liked having a build no one else had.

Would it hurt the game any to at least give folks choices?

I agree. I used to play around with the weirdest builds and it was so much fun when they worked, and even if they failed I really didn’t mind that much.

More player input, less forced choices and passive abilities.

Reaper Alim.4176:

Lol really if you want build diversity then GW2 is the wrong game for you. I don’t see GW2 ever getting build diversity back till Anet adds more elite specs lines in the skill trees.

And that is one of the (many) reasons so many people have stopped playing GW2… that is hardly good for business though, wouldn’t you agree?

The old system could have been “hard” for new players, but usually you didnt know what you would have done in the game (and what you would have preferred).

i know a lot of builds pre Hot where destroyed (mine included in 2 characters).

it was fine to simplify traits – remove a lot of “useless” traits.
but could have changed more with 5 lines where to put in things.
3 lines and Hot = no build variety.
specialization? maybe i dont want specialize in nothing. dont want to be OP in 2 things. maybe i want to have fun – careless if im effectively dealing damage-dps-whatever.

on the new system – i should bring again 5 traits in engineer and 4 traits in ranger.

and both builds i played them for 2 years and had fun and they were fine for most situations.

now basically i dont have fun with any kitten class.
FUN. otherwise as someone said around in wvw posts, “its not a job”

What more build diversity do you want? In WvW, I have multiple build that I run on multiple characters that are all more than viable, they’re great.

Guardian – 3 different builds.
- Celestial Medi/burn (Without elite spec)
- Marauders trap Dragonhunter
- Large group front line build (without elite spec)

Necro – 4 different builds.
- Classic power well necro without elite spec
- Power well necro with Reaper
- Corruption condition necro without elite spec
- Chillomancer Condition necro with Reaper.

Elementalist – 3 different builds
- Celestial Aurashare Tempest front line dagger/warhorn
- Zerk/Marauders Tempest back line Staff
- Celestial Tempest roaming dagger/warhorn (Without aura share, runs condi clense on regen instead)

Mesmer – 2 different builds
- Condi chronomancer
- Zerk shatter chronomancer

Revenant – 2 different builds
- Marauder staff roaming build with elite spec.
- Marauder hammer build for back line in larger groups.

Engineer Scrappers are pretty much just used for roaming, I don’t play it but I do know that some run zerk/marauders, condition or celestial. So there is still more than 1 build.

Thieves pretty much all run daredevil right now because its strong and they can go zero-skill gank people.

Warrior has 2 builds that I’ve played around with since the elite spec. One was the classic front line for larger groups and one was a mid-line/roamer/gank running gunflame.

Who cares about rangers anyway? No one should be playing that garbage.

And I mean, lets be real – who really cares about thief, engineer, warrior or ranger anyway? Warrior is the only semi-useful one of those. Ranger is still stuck on focusing single targets forever, engineer is not the best at anything it does – if you were to play engi, might as well play ele and do it better. And thief is just thief, always been a scrub class lol.

The power creep with HoT is real. Play an elite spec or gtfo, there are a few exceptions but for the most part this is the case.

The balance patch will hopefully see a nerf to a lot of the elites with some buffing to the core, only a few core classes could still be considered useful. Support guards can still find a place, power wells core necros.

A nerf to the elites and a buff to some of the core classes should in theory open up a lot more choices. As the elites wont just be stand out better than the core classes.

It baffles me what Anets internal balance testing consists of. Do they just sit around and pat each other on the back and go yeah, that looks balanced. Because it certainly doesnt look like they test this kitten from a balance perspective before delivering it live.

It would be quite interesting to have the old trait system back, with up to 5 selectable lines, putting in 5 points to the elite line so one could only run the elite weapon if they wanted and use the remaining points on other things they find useful as far as lines/traits, thus building a wider span of crazy builds across the board. But, as far as trait lines adding to armor stats, the new system seems to be better in that respect and I personally wouldn’t want that aspect of the old system back as it forced many into lines they didn’t necessarily want, but had to have.

I still don’t understand the meaning of this thread. Some people complain about class balance and some skills being OP, which is true but has nothing to do with old trait system vs current trait system. Or amount of builds.

Then there are some posts about the usual whining about how HoT ruined everything and GW2 was perfect and shiny and wonderful before HoT and how everything should be reverted because you do not like some minor detail anymore.

Again, where is that build diversity the thread attempts to ask back? Can you even bring up actual example where real-life working build made possible from picking weakest traits from 5 different trait lines is not available anymore?

You can not find suitable build with current system? Each class has 5 different core traits to pick from, each with 27 different trait combinations. That is 9 × 27=243 different core builds from just choosing the traits. Before even considering weapons. Or utility skills. Or runes and sigils. Or the Elite specs. No diversity? Seriously?

Josh XT.6053:

What more build diversity do you want? In WvW, I have multiple build that I run on multiple characters that are all more than viable, they’re great.

And I mean, lets be real – who really cares about thief, engineer, warrior or ranger anyway? Warrior is the only semi-useful one of those. Ranger is still stuck on focusing single targets forever, engineer is not the best at anything it does – if you were to play engi, might as well play ele and do it better. And thief is just thief, always been a scrub class lol.

Don’t think it was about how many builds you can rack up. But about out of those 4 builds on guardian you would have at least 2 different valid variations of each of them.

And no, changing one trait point from 1 to 3 doesn’t make it different. For example what I said before about meditation guard builds. That type of differences.

Josh XT.6053:

What more build diversity do you want? In WvW, I have multiple build that I run on multiple characters that are all more than viable, they’re great.

Guardian – 3 different builds.
- Celestial Medi/burn (Without elite spec)
- Marauders trap Dragonhunter
- Large group front line build (without elite spec)

Necro – 4 different builds.
- Classic power well necro without elite spec
- Power well necro with Reaper
- Corruption condition necro without elite spec
- Chillomancer Condition necro with Reaper.

Elementalist – 3 different builds
- Celestial Aurashare Tempest front line dagger/warhorn
- Zerk/Marauders Tempest back line Staff
- Celestial Tempest roaming dagger/warhorn (Without aura share, runs condi clense on regen instead)

Mesmer – 2 different builds
- Condi chronomancer
- Zerk shatter chronomancer

Revenant – 2 different builds
- Marauder staff roaming build with elite spec.
- Marauder hammer build for back line in larger groups.

Engineer Scrappers are pretty much just used for roaming, I don’t play it but I do know that some run zerk/marauders, condition or celestial. So there is still more than 1 build.

Thieves pretty much all run daredevil right now because its strong and they can go zero-skill gank people.

Warrior has 2 builds that I’ve played around with since the elite spec. One was the classic front line for larger groups and one was a mid-line/roamer/gank running gunflame.

Who cares about rangers anyway? No one should be playing that garbage.

And I mean, lets be real – who really cares about thief, engineer, warrior or ranger anyway? Warrior is the only semi-useful one of those. Ranger is still stuck on focusing single targets forever, engineer is not the best at anything it does – if you were to play engi, might as well play ele and do it better. And thief is just thief, always been a scrub class lol.

So lets see, you have Guardian which is one of the few classes that can get away without HoT spec traitline, but they are definitely not as good. Jack of all trades master or none.

Elementalist, ALL builds require the new HoT traitline, so less builds than before.

Necro, in which ALL your builds use the new HoT specialised trait line. Therefore less builds than there was before the HoT traitline.

Mesmer, 2 builds BOTH using the new HoT specialised traitline. So again less builds than before.

Revenant, again ALL builds but 1v1 builds need the new specialised traitline.

So as you see if you have 1 traitline decided before you even start the build that leaves you with 2 trait lines left to use with too many skills being must haves.

99% of the time you can tell what build someone is using before you have even fought them because of these new traitlines.

(Sarcasm) So well done for making some Metabattle builds because there is no viable diverse alternatives. Pat on the back for you. (Sarcasm over)

I’m with the OP, yawn on all you roamers. Same boring engagements over and over.

RodOfDeath.5247:

I’m with the OP, yawn on all you roamers. Same boring engagements over and over.

It’s got nothing to do with just roaming, it’s a systemic problem throughout all of WvW. Look how long GWEN was meta for, 2 years in larger engagements that has nothing to do with roaming.

Josh XT.6053:

Thieves pretty much all run daredevil right now because its strong and they can go zero-skill gank people.

And thief is just thief, always been a scrub class lol.

… Play a thief in WvW. Try to not die to literally every random AoE thrown out by a group, or survive under the focus of one or two people.

Thieves have their general sneaky playstyle, but they are by no means in a great place right now.

More combinations =/= more viable options.

Edit: honestly even now we have way too many combinations of build options, which is the number 1 reason for classes having 1-2 useful builds and everything else being trash.

If it doesn’t affect you and your own meta choices, why is it a big deal if others want it back?