Guild Wars 2

Keep with a waypoint shouldn’t show under attack unless there’s a Ram or any kind of siege is hitting it, i think Having 1 person running around all day hitting gates to stop your enemy from spawning is just wrong, Basically it it Shows (UNDER ATTACK) while its NOT (UNDER ATTACK), Same thing goes with towers, my whole point is, things shouldn’t show (under attack) unless somehow its under serious attack, opnions ?

EDIT : Some good quotes so Far :

pot.6805:

Agreed. This is just stupid that 1 thief is allowed to make a waypoint worthless 99% of the time.

Slamz.5376:

This is where I think the Planetside system was more fun: every tower and base could be spawned at in combat and you could additionally deploy mobile spawners. Shutting down the enemy’s spawners was often job 1. Spawners did not stop working just because the base was “in combat”.

This helped both zerg vs zerg and small group combat, since small groups using a mobile spawner could stay in an area longer and keep fighting (until someone found their spawner).

GW2 lets 1 thief shut down the spawner and then you’re running from across the map to rejoin the battle. It ruins small group combat and roamers and really helps make the game zerg vs zerg, since zergs can usually rez downed people very quickly, even if they’re in the process of losing the field.

I’d be real curious to see what this game played like if every tower and keep had a free spawner in it. It lets defense react quicker but it also lets offense spread out more while still being effective.

Atoss.1056:

Or just remove any dmg done to the doors except siege weapons That would prevent 50 man zerg melting wooden doors just by facerubbing it.

SilencingMachine.5049:

That’s why on JQ (where the boss WvW-ers live apparently…haha), you see people in chat with “10 sec on gari wp…starting spamming now!!!! GET HERE!”. Try that out and stop crying about 1-3 WP’s that you mostly don’t use anyways.

WhiteAndMilky.2514:

Kalkz.5297:

Keep with a waypoint shouldn’t show under attack unless there’s a Ram or any kind of siege is hitting it, i think Having 1 person running around all day hitting gates to stop your enemy from spawning is just wrong, Basically it it Shows (UNDER ATTACK) while its NOT (UNDER ATTACK), Same thing goes with towers, my whole point is, things shouldn’t show (under attack) unless somehow its under serious attack, opnions ?

OP is right. I am a scout most of the time, and as a scout I am constantly thwacking enemy keeps to contest wayoints or force them to send someone to check it out. I enjoy contesting waypoints, but it is silly how 1 person can have that much power in a map.

Whether I’m scouting as a thief or as a ranger, it doesn’t matter how many guards are there, I will contest it no problem. Mesmer and ele also have a fairly easy time contesting keeps.

I think we should have the option to contest keeps with normal attacks, but it should require at least a few people, or when it takes damage from 1 piece of siege.

KarlusDavius.1024:

• Reduce the event to 1 minute, ten second internal timer between events whereby the waypoint is open.
• Dynamically scale the amount of people who travel to that way point based on wall/door status.
  Example:
  Outer being attacked. Ten players allowed to port. Per event timer
  Outer down and inner under attack, 5 allowed to port, per event timer.
  Both down, WP is locked out. Event timer refreshes Instantly.
• Waypoint is contested based on a percentage.. 5% reduction locks out WP. Allows groups who are organised to lock out WP quickly with siege. However, gives upgrading walls and doors a stronger advantage in that it allows players to port in for a longer period of time before being locked.
• Upgrading guards gives archers on walls the ability to scout anything within firing range. It will also show which wall/door is under attack on the map via a glow effect on said wall/door.
• In order to contest via door, the NPC defenders must be killed first. Walls can only be destroyed or contested with sieges.

Kohz.1534:

Contesting anything with a door should be exactly the opposite of what repairing a door is now, What I mean is you MUST do actual damage to the Keep/Tower door of 5 or 10% in order to contest it. This stops the Knock knock Avon calling crap that is going on now contesting everything. Doing any actual damage is worthy of white swords, not some bored thief selling makeup.

Are you able to kill the person doing it and maintain proactive scouts at your keeps?

Looks like QQ to me.

Churchill.8714:

Are you able to kill the person doing it and maintain proactive scouts at your keeps?

We’re not playing call of duty sir

Looks like Citadel and Border Waypoints are all you have then.

If it should contest only if there’s siege placed, you wouldn’t know if people are PvDooring it and if you’re busy elsewhere you would lose your keep before you even noticed anything which is far worse than having to run an extra half-mile. Contesting waypoints is a valid tactic to delay enemy reinforcements or to distract them.

You can do the same to your opponents.

phaneo.4597:

If it should contest only if there’s siege placed, you wouldn’t know if people are PvDooring it and if you’re busy elsewhere you would lose your keep before you even noticed anything which is far worse than having to run an extra half-mile. Contesting waypoints is a valid tactic to delay enemy reinforcements or to distract them.

If you want to Pvd a keep you will need at least 40 people, which causes orange swords, And sure we can do this to our enemy, But i consider it as a bug

The next big facepalm-worthy post 4-5 months from now:

Anet, Plz remuv Aro carts n balsta coz dem hurtz me. Plz also remuv dyin in a batle.

Kalkz.5297:

phaneo.4597:

If it should contest only if there’s siege placed, you wouldn’t know if people are PvDooring it and if you’re busy elsewhere you would lose your keep before you even noticed anything which is far worse than having to run an extra half-mile. Contesting waypoints is a valid tactic to delay enemy reinforcements or to distract them.

If you want to Pvd a keep you will need at least 40 people, which causes orange swords, And sure we can do this to our enemy, But i consider it as a bug

Not required. There are tools certain classes have that can do considerable damage even with enemies of smaller groups. They can also constantly stealth themselves so that lazy scouts don’t even notice anything fishy. I don’t know why is it so difficult to run for a minute if a nearest waypoint is contested? It’s similar to people who just fall off a cliff or get ganked by someone and ask for a rez on chat – you just have to respawn and run back. How difficult can it be?

Have a scout at all structures to report any enemy movement. If it is used as a distraction, you’d know by asking your scout. If it is being a pain and delaying your movement across the map, well… your enemy did his job well.

No. Waypoints are there to be used and to be contested. Even if it’s contested, you can still get in at the end of the defense event.

Looks like your server is getting out played

Get on TS, talk to your server, organise a bit and having keeps tagged won’t be much of an issue- your scouts will let you know what is going on straight away.

Churchill.8714:

Are you able to kill the person doing it and maintain proactive scouts at your keeps?

Scouts have nothing to do with the situation. If you have 2 or 3 skilled players at every door of your keep I and any other thief with 1/2 my talent (which is not extremely talented compared to some) will contest your keep as long as we need it contested, all day if I wish.

I have no opinion on whether I support the OP’s wishes or not. But scouts are irrelevant, they cannot and do not keep a waypoint from becoming contested.

Devs have already said they were looking into fixing this, both removing single taps from contesting keeps and also removing the ability to port everyone in during the split second timer reset. Its just a matter of waiting for the fix at this point.

fivekiller.1432:

Churchill.8714:

Are you able to kill the person doing it and maintain proactive scouts at your keeps?

Scouts have nothing to do with the situation. If you have 2 or 3 skilled players at every door of your keep I and any other thief with 1/2 my talent (which is not extremely talented compared to some) will contest your keep as long as we need it contested, all day if I wish.

I have no opinion on whether I support the OP’s wishes or not. But scouts are irrelevant, they cannot and do not keep a waypoint from becoming contested.

And theres no reason not to have a scout independent of waypoints. You need advance warning if a zerg is rolling up to your keep, not just white X’s. If you wait for the first golem to hit the door you’ve already lost.

urzen.7096:

fivekiller.1432:

Churchill.8714:

Are you able to kill the person doing it and maintain proactive scouts at your keeps?

Scouts have nothing to do with the situation. If you have 2 or 3 skilled players at every door of your keep I and any other thief with 1/2 my talent (which is not extremely talented compared to some) will contest your keep as long as we need it contested, all day if I wish.

I have no opinion on whether I support the OP’s wishes or not. But scouts are irrelevant, they cannot and do not keep a waypoint from becoming contested.

And theres no reason not to have a scout independent of waypoints. You need advance warning if a zerg is rolling up to your keep, not just white X’s. If you wait for the first golem to hit the door you’ve already lost.

I misspoke. I only meant scouts were irrelevant in regards to the contesting of keeps. As someone who spent 3 hours last night watching a garrison watergate for incoming golems I agree wholeheartedly that scouts are useful.

But useless at stopping a point from being contested.

Or just remove any dmg done to the doors except siege weapons That would prevent 50 man zerg melting wooden doors just by facerubbing it.

Atoss.1056:

Or just remove any dmg done to the doors except siege weapons That would prevent 50 man zerg melting wooden doors just by facerubbing it.

That makes a lot of sense. Or even just Fortified doors are immune to players.

or, make it so it only contests when 5 or more are attacking it

Kalkz.5297:

Keep with a waypoint shouldn’t show under attack unless there’s a Ram or any kind of siege is hitting it, i think Having 1 person running around all day hitting gates to stop your enemy from spawning is just wrong, Basically it it Shows (UNDER ATTACK) while its NOT (UNDER ATTACK), Same thing goes with towers, my whole point is, things shouldn’t show (under attack) unless somehow its under serious attack, opnions ?

Having a sentry at your keeps and towers would put a stop to that tactic.

not much you can do against a C/D thief

Prepare to have your keep contested all day

Kalkz.5297:

phaneo.4597:

If it should contest only if there’s siege placed, you wouldn’t know if people are PvDooring it and if you’re busy elsewhere you would lose your keep before you even noticed anything which is far worse than having to run an extra half-mile. Contesting waypoints is a valid tactic to delay enemy reinforcements or to distract them.

If you want to Pvd a keep you will need at least 40 people, which causes orange swords, And sure we can do this to our enemy, But i consider it as a bug

ram does 8000 damage to nonupgraded gates, HB from warrior does 800-1000 damage , so 20 warriors would do same damage as 2 Rams. No swords,no contest, Flip Flip

Raf.1078:

Kalkz.5297:

Keep with a waypoint shouldn’t show under attack unless there’s a Ram or any kind of siege is hitting it, i think Having 1 person running around all day hitting gates to stop your enemy from spawning is just wrong, Basically it it Shows (UNDER ATTACK) while its NOT (UNDER ATTACK), Same thing goes with towers, my whole point is, things shouldn’t show (under attack) unless somehow its under serious attack, opnions ?

Having a sentry at your keeps and towers would put a stop to that tactic.

Not likely. It’s pretty easy to do a drive by on a door and then escape the few angry defenders that give chase – at least for some classes.

I thoroughly enjoy running around tagging towers and keeps. This is how I find small group fights in WvW. Otherwise we’d be zerg balling all day. I like my zergs when I want some loot bags but it gets boring.

I think way points need to go. Maybe the only one should be garrison waypoint in your homeworld. Homeworld should have an advantage. Other than that, I think if you die outside of your homeworld, you should be ported back to Lion Arch and have to reque. Death should mean something.

I’m not necessarily arguing for a change, at least not without knowing what the alternative would be.

Although, the current system is obscure, arbitrary, and excessively rewarding to exploit or excessively punitive to not exploit.

Lets examine two scenarios – one where a group ignores the obscure system and another where they exploit it.

A guild with 30ish people perfectly executes a surprise attack on an enemy borderland Garrison that has a waypoint. They aren’t seen/scouted en route and quickly melt down both water gates without producing any orange swords on map. However, the enemy server sees the white swords for contested that aren’t normally up, and quickly starts running in defenders that meet the attacking guild in the lord’s room. The attacking guild is able to kill the lord and defeats the defenders as they stream in on foot, but they aren’t able to fully cap the circle quickly enough. Since they are fighting all in the lord’s room to finish the cap (as contested as anything ever should be able to be in truth,) the Garrison defense event ends – and since no one is hitting a door or wall then the waypoint goes back up permanently and an endless stream of rezzing defenders flows in and eventually defeats their attempt to capture Garrison. Total failure.

A guild with 30ish people lets a couple thieves continually do drive-bys on Garrison doors (place has 5 outer doors, no way to stop it) for over 40 minutes. White swords on Garrison and nearly useless waypoint are just a fixture on the map for the defenders, so when the surprise attack occurs, it appears exactly the same on map as if there is no attack at all. When the attacks reach the lord’s room, they find very little response waiting for them – and they send a couple thieves out to attack random doors just to keep the waypoint contested, just to be safe. The few defenders and lord are quickly defeated and Garrison captured easily. Total success.

The thing to keep in mind here is that the difference in tactics/execution has little to do with realistic or even intuitive activities. It’s just a matter of being steeped in obscure details of map and waypoint mechanics – nearly arbitrary code. Who really wants to be the designated door contester for hours on end or the designated door sentry? Might different arbitrary code produce results more intuitive, less obscure, and more fun?

Personally, I think limiting contests to structural damage done only by siege weapons makes a lot of sense intuitively. On the other hand, I also think keeping waypoints 100% locked out between chained contest events makes a lot of intuitive sense, also. Also, attacking a lord or having a contest circle active counting to trigger a defense event and lockout a waypoint seems fairly intuitive as well.

Atoss.1056:

Or just remove any dmg done to the doors except siege weapons That would prevent 50 man zerg melting wooden doors just by facerubbing it.

Until they do something to address siegecapping, they can’t do this.

The other day we were siegecapped on EB. Without the ability to remove some of the older rams built in useless places, we wouldn’t have been able to take anything at all if we couldn’t zerg a door til it was destroyed.

Kalkz.5297:

Keep with a waypoint shouldn’t show under attack unless there’s a Ram or any kind of siege is hitting it, i think Having 1 person running around all day hitting gates to stop your enemy from spawning is just wrong, Basically it it Shows (UNDER ATTACK) while its NOT (UNDER ATTACK), Same thing goes with towers, my whole point is, things shouldn’t show (under attack) unless somehow its under serious attack, opnions ?

OP is right. I am a scout most of the time, and as a scout I am constantly thwacking enemy keeps to contest wayoints or force them to send someone to check it out. I enjoy contesting waypoints, but it is silly how 1 person can have that much power in a map.

Whether I’m scouting as a thief or as a ranger, it doesn’t matter how many guards are there, I will contest it no problem. Mesmer and ele also have a fairly easy time contesting keeps.

I think we should have the option to contest keeps with normal attacks, but it should require at least a few people, or when it takes damage from 1 piece of siege.

Atoss.1056:

Or just remove any dmg done to the doors except siege weapons That would prevent 50 man zerg melting wooden doors just by facerubbing it.

I have wished for awhile now that this was the case. Need to have rams despawn after 5 minutes of being built though due to siege cap.

In a nutshell, it helps to have someone hanging out to peek over the wall to see what’s knocking. Everything is fine as is. That is my opinion.

gates should be like walls, immune to player damage. this would solve both the silly tapping and give back some advantage to defenders (who should have an advantage but currently have none at all).

Straegen.2938:

IMO the waypoint shouldn’t be contested until the outer wall is breached and should remain contested so long that it is.

I actually like this idea

Ljiona.9142:

I think way points need to go.

On waypoints – if no one on your server pays money to upgrade a keep to get a waypoint, then you don’t have it for map completion right? This is the one reason why I think WP’s should go.

I agree that WPs should be contested. But not by a lone thief or what not.

Yams.6082:

Ljiona.9142:

I think way points need to go.

On waypoints – if no one on your server pays money to upgrade a keep to get a waypoint, then you don’t have it for map completion right? This is the one reason why I think WP’s should go.

Wrong, WP’s in wvw are auto granted for map completion once you step on that map one time.
No need to ‘discover’ them.

IMO you don’t need to actually be hitting the gates with a ram, but you should at least have killed all the guards out front to contest the keep. And even them, unless the keep is constantly sieged, it should only be for 30 seconds.

Kalkz.5297:

Keep with a waypoint shouldn’t show under attack unless there’s a Ram or any kind of siege is hitting it, i think Having 1 person running around all day hitting gates to stop your enemy from spawning is just wrong, Basically it it Shows (UNDER ATTACK) while its NOT (UNDER ATTACK), Same thing goes with towers, my whole point is, things shouldn’t show (under attack) unless somehow its under serious attack, opnions ?

This calls for a 19 man ninja team dpsing down a door

This is where I think the Planetside system was more fun: every tower and base could be spawned at in combat and you could additionally deploy mobile spawners. Shutting down the enemy’s spawners was often job 1. Spawners did not stop working just because the base was “in combat”.

This helped both zerg vs zerg and small group combat, since small groups using a mobile spawner could stay in an area longer and keep fighting (until someone found their spawner).

GW2 lets 1 thief shut down the spawner and then you’re running from across the map to rejoin the battle. It ruins small group combat and roamers and really helps make the game zerg vs zerg, since zergs can usually rez downed people very quickly, even if they’re in the process of losing the field.

I’d be real curious to see what this game played like if every tower and keep had a free spawner in it. It lets defense react quicker but it also lets offense spread out more while still being effective.

Xephyron.4702:

Kalkz.5297:

Keep with a waypoint shouldn’t show under attack unless there’s a Ram or any kind of siege is hitting it, i think Having 1 person running around all day hitting gates to stop your enemy from spawning is just wrong, Basically it it Shows (UNDER ATTACK) while its NOT (UNDER ATTACK), Same thing goes with towers, my whole point is, things shouldn’t show (under attack) unless somehow its under serious attack, opnions ?

This calls for a 19 man ninja team dpsing down a door

Another idea can solve this, A gate or a keep/tower Gets contested if the Gate or the Wall got damaged by more than 5 – 10%

Or just let the waypoint always work provided no single wall or door is under 90% health, regardless of whether the place is in combat or not.

A good catapult volley would shut it down quick but one guy banging on the door with his head would never shut it down.

Agreed. This is just stupid that 1 thief is allowed to make a waypoint worthless 99% of the time.

From the QQ in this thread, I am guessing you do not have GOOD people in your /m or /t or on TS that are broadcasting the countdown timer on those WPs, eh? You DO know that as they “defend” countdown timer goes to zero, you can spam click the WP and use it. (ie. it goes uncontested for a brief period).That’s why on JQ (where the boss WvW-ers live apparently…haha), you see people in chat with “10 sec on gari wp…starting spamming now!!!! GET HERE!”. Try that out and stop crying about 1-3 WP’s that you mostly don’t use anyways.

Churchill.8714:

Are you able to kill the person doing it and maintain proactive scouts at your keeps?

Its pretty close to impossible to find a thief or mesmer doing it on Garrison, Hills or Bay.

I agree with the OP its pretty stupid that it should work like that.

SilencingMachine.5049:

From the QQ in this thread, I am guessing you do not have GOOD people in your /m or /t or on TS that are broadcasting the countdown timer on those WPs, eh? You DO know that as they “defend” countdown timer goes to zero, you can spam click the WP and use it. (ie. it goes uncontested for a brief period).That’s why on JQ (where the boss WvW-ers live apparently…haha), you see people in chat with “10 sec on gari wp…starting spamming now!!!! GET HERE!”. Try that out and stop crying about 1-3 WP’s that you mostly don’t use anyways.

Stop Crying ? You’re a boss, JQ is a good WvW server, We get it, Now let the other 23 servers talk, we dont have WvW population as you do, When you have 10 People in your whole BL and your enemy outman you and you see your 3 waypoints getting contested due having 1 thief slapping doors over and over You basically cant do anything, Use your kittening brain

Daeqar.8965:

Raf.1078:

Kalkz.5297:

Keep with a waypoint shouldn’t show under attack unless there’s a Ram or any kind of siege is hitting it, i think Having 1 person running around all day hitting gates to stop your enemy from spawning is just wrong, Basically it it Shows (UNDER ATTACK) while its NOT (UNDER ATTACK), Same thing goes with towers, my whole point is, things shouldn’t show (under attack) unless somehow its under serious attack, opnions ?

Having a sentry at your keeps and towers would put a stop to that tactic.

Not likely. It’s pretty easy to do a drive by on a door and then escape the few angry defenders that give chase – at least for some classes.

I didn’t mean it would stop the Thief (or whatever)…I meant that having a live sentry to do a quick sweep of the tower or keep would stop your forces from having to respond to the swords.

Pardon me for not reading the other responses, so I’m only responding to the OP. Why do you think that not having a method to contest would be a good thing? Giving the defenders an instant respawn inside the keep or garrison would be incredibly overpowered…so much so as to almost force them to remove waypoints altogether. I’m all for a new creative method for contesting, but the nature of it has to remain the same. You need to give attackers a way to diminish the defense overtime, while also giving defenders some hope for holding out just a little longer. This really is the perfect solution, albeit clunky.

The issue isn’t responding to swords. You can have all the scouts you want and without stationing an army there, nothing will stop 1 thief from walking up and contesting your WP every 3 minutes. ANet wants to remove the WP bug to be able to port in during a fight by not having gaps b/w events, which I agree with, but they also have to remove the ability to tag the WP so easily. Possibly, do not contest the WP unless 5+ players or ANY piece of siege hit the keep.

They should change it so that only hitting inner walls and doors contest waypoints. Outer doors should have no effect in my opinion.

I think that doors should be damageable by seiges only.
But up the dmg seiges do vs infantry, to try to counter the zerg a bit, make grouping up too much a hazard!