Guild Wars 2

1. Anti Stealth Traps are USELESS. Period.
10 supplies and nearly 4 seconds cast? Really? Seriously guys? Thief will kill me before I open my Inventory…
2. Thieves can easily escape from EVERY fight. He starts a fight, loses, stealths, heals and resets (or escapes)… and so on. Two days ago I saw a Thief kiting 2 people AND killing a Dolyak in the same time… that’s insane…
3. There is no possible way to counter stealth. I am asking – WITH WHAT? With that useless traps?
4. The risk of roaming as a Thief is 0. Beautiful, round ZERO. He can run away whenever he wants.
I have leveled an Engineer especially for WvW (because my Ele was nerfed again, and no – I’m not talking about D/D but about my Mist Form) and I use dual Pistols + H S B U Elixirs and Supply Crate of course. Traits: 10/30/0/30/0. Armor: Power/Vit/Condi. I have a question – how am I supposed to fight versus someone who is invisible 75% of the time? Glue Shot immobilize and Supply Crate stuns are useful but still – they only let me to harass him – not kill…

Immobilize and channeled abilities.

For example, rifle warrior with leg specialist will absolutely destroy thieves. ( Warriors please dont use rifle in wvw).

AoE, stun him, there are many ways…

counter to stealth – anticipate where he is going to strike hint he will most likely try to BS

if we run away GJ to you we don’t want a long fight when we are solo roaming.

not all thieves are good at using them techniques , it actually takes some accordination, to escape lol , engi can handle thieves pretty well except for the good ones , usally about 50/50 , is good presumption lol

Yeah, just bail the fight and go find some fun encounters. No point hanging around for never ending trolling match agains’t thieves.

I think your main problem there is that you’re running all elixirs and dual pistols. That in addition with your chosen stats, you don’t have a lot of burst, cc nor the ability to condition stacks. Any of those 3 would help with killing the thief. Burst because he cannot run if he is dead. CC because he cannot run and stealth as much if you are denying him that chance and stacking conditions because it could finish him even if he manages to stealth and runs away.

I rarely ever have any problems fighting thieves on my engi and only on occasion do they manage to get away, but that might be because I have decent burst, cc and condition stacking. (good survivability too)

Vs a good thief your not going to be able to counter the stealth and mobility. However its not impossible to simply win with a good burst. If he isn’t going to chase just move on.

Your an engineer right running HGH so I can’t pity you since that’s kitten near OP in its own right. Tool kit and Grenade Kit could help you in general with pining down the thief so could Net Turret and Rifle

1) Channel an ability before they go into stealth. Not only will this continue to do damage, but you can semi-track where they are by where your attack points. This does not apply when that wierd lag is happening where the player character (or doly, or whatever) is not actually where they are rendering on your client, but its still there.

2) Swing wildly at the air, switching 180 degrees randomly

3) Spam AoE either at your feet, or where you see the black swirls/smoke fields, etc.

Most of the time, it is a complete waste of your time to do any of these things unless its in the middle of a larger battle. Really, the best way to “counter” it is just move on and do what you are doing somewhere else.

Thaia.5146:

1. Anti Stealth Traps are USELESS. Period.
10 supplies and nearly 4 seconds cast? Really? Seriously guys? Thief will kill me before I open my Inventory…

OK, this needs to be clarified. Anti stealth traps are NOT meant to be used to fight a thief that you’ve already engaged in combat. If you’re trying to use it that way then you deserve to be face down in the dirt. They’re meant to be tactically placed in order to minimize access to a certain area of stealth players. For example, if you know when the enemy breaks down your tower gate that they’re going to try to sneak a stealthed mesmer in there with a portal…

Please, stop with the complaints that the traps are useless. A blueberry pie is useless if you’re trying to drive in a nail with it. But it still makes one tasty snack when used properly.

VOLKON.1290:

OK, this needs to be clarified. Anti stealth traps are NOT meant to be used to fight a thief that you’ve already engaged in combat. If you’re trying to use it that way then you deserve to be face down in the dirt. They’re meant to be tactically placed in order to minimize access to a certain area of stealth players. For example, if you know when the enemy breaks down your tower gate that they’re going to try to sneak a stealthed mesmer in there with a portal…

Waste of supplies and badges.

Thaia.5146:

VOLKON.1290:

OK, this needs to be clarified. Anti stealth traps are NOT meant to be used to fight a thief that you’ve already engaged in combat. If you’re trying to use it that way then you deserve to be face down in the dirt. They’re meant to be tactically placed in order to minimize access to a certain area of stealth players. For example, if you know when the enemy breaks down your tower gate that they’re going to try to sneak a stealthed mesmer in there with a portal…

Please, stop with the complaints that the traps are useless. A blueberry pie is useless if you’re trying to drive in a nail with it. But it still makes one tasty snack when used properly.

Waste of supplies and badges.

Waste of a blueberry pie.

the relatively low effectiveness versus the cost is why the anti-stealth traps are rarely used compared to supply traps which work really well.

but the principle remains the same — anti-stealth traps are not intended to be used for 1v1 combat, or even small group combat. they are intended to be used to protect fixed positions from stealthers.

Aoe, immobilize, channeled skills, movement skills, invuln skills, confusions, protection, retaliation. You might not kill him but you’ll survive, which is winning.

Make a thief and play a couple of hot join matches in spvp. You’ll quickly realize you’re not as invincible as you think you are.

Well many people counter stealth by creating multiple threads on the forums QQing so hard about thieves stealth/dmg, that ANET takes care of it for them.

Constant movement against a thief, with well timed evades are key. Anticipate when they will CnD or Backstab and use blinds, block, evades or fear. Keeping a thief who is utilizing stealth out of stealth is well, game breaking. Also, being able to count to 3 or even 4 is extremely helpful. And pretty much what others have suggested.

If your looking to use the stealth trap out side of the “intended” method. Keep in mind this is situational and only if your camping a area. Place the right outside the normal run path and hang out. Works well in camps. Then if said thief comes by, do your best to kite him to the trap.

As for countering stealth, move a lot! Never let your back face the same direction for very long, and kitten stop walking backwards! Its a free backstab! Also use the terrain, change levels. If done right you can make it a nightmare for the thief trying to close the gap.

If a thief uses shadow refuge, stop trying to AoE the zone, use that time to get some distance between you and him. He is going to use it to reset the fight. Take the time to do the same. Unless you can down him while he is in the zone or use a pull to get him out early, if that’s the case GG.

Ethics.4519:

Make a thief and play a couple of hot join matches in spvp. You’ll quickly realize you’re not as invincible as you think you are.

Ppl often refer to sPVP thieves whenever WVW thieves are discussed, as if sPvP balance somehow justifies their power in WvW.

WvW thieves do not conform to sPvP balance rules, they have higher burst, and 25% shorter revealed. And several thief abilities have been “balanced” to hit harder in wvw then they do in sPvP.

Until this changes, we will keep seeing these complaints about wvw thieves.
I suspect revealed could be doubled to 6 sec in WvW, and thieves would still be a problem for most players there.

run away builds are just that, other than scouting they are garbage.
Plenty of classes can build build wing arm turtle/run away, /shrugs

A proper built dps one is the danger, there you need to watch the initial burst and have some aoe to hit stealth.

Thaia.5146:

1. Anti Stealth Traps are USELESS. Period.
10 supplies and nearly 4 seconds cast? Really? Seriously guys? Thief will kill me before I open my Inventory…
2. Thieves can easily escape from EVERY fight. He starts a fight, loses, stealths, heals and resets (or escapes)… and so on. Two days ago I saw a Thief kiting 2 people AND killing a Dolyak in the same time… that’s insane…
3. There is no possible way to counter stealth. I am asking – WITH WHAT? With that useless traps?
4. The risk of roaming as a Thief is 0. Beautiful, round ZERO. He can run away whenever he wants.
I have leveled an Engineer especially for WvW (because my Ele was nerfed again, and no – I’m not talking about D/D but about my Mist Form) and I use dual Pistols + H S B U Elixirs and Supply Crate of course. Traits: 10/30/0/30/0. Armor: Power/Vit/Condi. I have a question – how am I supposed to fight versus someone who is invisible 75% of the time? Glue Shot immobilize and Supply Crate stuns are useful but still – they only let me to harass him – not kill…

As an Engineer, you have quite a few tools that can be handy vs thieves. Unfortunately based on what you’ve listed in what you’re using for skills, you’re not using any of them. I’d say you’re going to struggle a bit with thieves. Or at least I should say I would struggle with them with your build. I’ve run P/P build a long time with my engie. Thieves can be beat consistently with it if you change your build a little bit.

I’d replace Elixir U with Toolkit. Toolkit is a must for me in any build I use for my Engineer in WvW. When I first started playing the Engineer I thought it was a pointless kit. Now I can’t go without it. The block from Toolkit is amazing and using it at the right time vs a thief is a game changer. Pretty much every ability in the Toolkit is useful in WvW and when fighting a theif. I’d also look at mixing some toughness gear in too helps reduce the burst damage of a thief.

But as far as how you beat a thief with your build? Timing. It really is about timing. Think in 4 second intervals. Now different thief builds will require things to time, but with your build you need to stack on as many conditions you can in those 4 seconds they are out.

Static Shot, Blowtorch, and Poison Volley. Try to make poison volley your last attack before they go into stealth because it will still track them and hit them even if they are stealthed as long as you get the attack off before they stealth.

If you can get poison, confusion, burn and bleed(all possible from pistols) on him before he stealths, he’s going to struggle because he won’t be able to clear all of those conditions. When he stealths, you can heal up, or drop potions on you for the might stacks. But again..be aware of the timing. After they stealth, they will attack in 3 to 4 seconds unless they used Refuge. Drop a glue shot right before they’re about to pop out and dodge. Stack on the conditions.

The biggest challenge you’re going to have with your build is dealing with their Shadow Refuge. That ability can allow them to reset the fight if you dont counter it well. And unfortunately your build doesn’t have great tools for it.

Your only option with your current build is blowtorch. And if that’s on cooldown then you’re pretty much stuck twiddling your thumbs knowing they are going to reset.

O O…dude I have the solution to this. I found out a few days ago when I fought this thief in WvW..

The first thing you do is use y…….

~This user was backstabbed repeatedly and died~

Boomstin.3460:

Yeah, just bail the fight and go find some fun encounters. No point hanging around for never ending trolling match agains’t thieves.

Unfortunately true.

Sure you can down a really bad thief in just seconds, but against good thieves the fight often goes on for 5 minutes or so. With that time you can do be doing something better.

Arenanet developers still don’t get: stealth is broken in WvWvW. Stealthed characters should be visualized semi-transparent to their enemies, just like they show to their allies. One could still not target stealthed player, but end of guess work where the stealthed enemy is.

Lifewaster.5912:

Ethics.4519:

Make a thief and play a couple of hot join matches in spvp. You’ll quickly realize you’re not as invincible as you think you are.

Ppl often refer to sPVP thieves whenever WVW thieves are discussed, as if sPvP balance somehow justifies their power in WvW.

WvW thieves do not conform to sPvP balance rules, they have higher burst, and 25% shorter revealed. And several thief abilities have been “balanced” to hit harder in wvw then they do in sPvP.

Until this changes, we will keep seeing these complaints about wvw thieves.
I suspect revealed could be doubled to 6 sec in WvW, and thieves would still be a problem for most players there.

I am sorry I did not clarify this more. I did not mean to say that since you get killed in sPvP as a thief you will in WvW. I know these are completely different.

The point I was trying to make was that he should make a thief and learn how it works. The fastest way would be to just make a new one and go into sPvP. He can see that stealth from a thief perspective is different than stealth from a non-thief perspective.

Boomstin.3460:

Yeah, just bail the fight and go find some fun encounters. No point hanging around for never ending trolling match agains’t thieves.

Yup!

Fighting thieves is one of the must “unfun” experiences I have had in any game. Doesnt matter if I win or lose, its just dull. There are so many other great things to do in game that I consider fighting 99% of thieves to be a total waste of time.

Create a thief and go play in PvP for a while. IMO nothing really highlights the ways you can kill something like experiencing them firsthand.

Tuluum.9638:

Boomstin.3460:

Yeah, just bail the fight and go find some fun encounters. No point hanging around for never ending trolling match agains’t thieves.

Yup!

Fighting thieves is one of the must “unfun” experiences I have had in any game. Doesnt matter if I win or lose, its just dull. There are so many other great things to do in game that I consider fighting 99% of thieves to be a total waste of time.

The solution isn’t that simple though. I get the impression they made their Engineer for WvW roaming. If youre a WvW roamer, you’re going to fight thieves pretty much every fight. I roam on my engineer every night and there are nights where I have 20 different fights and every one of them has a thief in them.

Tuluum.9638:

Boomstin.3460:

Yeah, just bail the fight and go find some fun encounters. No point hanging around for never ending trolling match agains’t thieves.

Yup!

Fighting thieves is one of the must “unfun” experiences I have had in any game. Doesnt matter if I win or lose, its just dull. There are so many other great things to do in game that I consider fighting 99% of thieves to be a total waste of time.

I actually quite like it… if I find one alone I’ll always try to duel it if I’m not busy. The dull part tends to be that someone from my team or theirs will often show up and get in the way… happened the day before yesterday on my level 50 necro, fighting a lvl 80 thief who was built for survivability and conditions. He’d taken off a considerable part of my >30k health at first but via wells, marks, chills and condition transfer/conversion, it was starting to swing back in the other direction with my average health increasing as his decreased.

…and then someone (of my team I mean) came to ‘help’…

Bleh.

BrimstoneAshe.5043:

The solution isn’t that simple though. I get the impression they made their Engineer for WvW roaming. If youre a WvW roamer, you’re going to fight thieves pretty much every fight. I roam on my engineer every night and there are nights where I have 20 different fights and every one of them has a thief in them.

My time in-game is spent at about 75% solo roaming. I dont run into this issue, but I have no doubt it can change pretty dramatically from tier to tier. And to be clear, I dont really feel its even a “solution” so much as just a choice of where to invest time. I do run across thieves, but I tend to be pretty successful against them. The second I see them constantly going into stealth and regening their health, Im outta there.

LameFox.6349:

I actually quite like it…

I am glad you do, though it isnt relevant to what I enjoy. I also find playing as a bunker to be incredibly boring, though if you look at how many people do play them, it is undoubtedly enjoyable for some. I never meant to imply my own experience was universal, but it is most definitely not fun for me.

The dull part tends to be that someone from my team or theirs will often show up and get in the way… happened the day before yesterday on my level 50 necro, fighting a lvl 80 thief who was built for survivability and conditions. He’d taken off a considerable part of my >30k health at first but via wells, marks, chills and condition transfer/conversion, it was starting to swing back in the other direction with my average health increasing as his decreased.

…and then someone (of my team I mean) came to ‘help’…

Bleh.

We half agree on this one. Sometimes I like the fight I am currently in and would prefer my team mates to leave us alone while it finishes. If they dont, I generally will just pull back.

Now.. If more from the other team join in, thats when I start to really enjoy it. Thats the only way Ill stick around to fight a thief is if others join in. The chances of me winning the engagement are low, but I could not care less about dying. The “last stand” type fights are some of my favorites, although some end rather quickly as my ranger is pretty glassy (only 2300 armor).

Its all subjective anyway, but I know I am not alone in disliking a fight with a thief.

Honestly… Play a thief. I think Anet did a brilliant job with the thief’s combat mechanics but the consequence of that brilliance is that the hurdle is so high you’ll never really know how to counter them unless you actually play one to understand it. Since the thief is always the initiator, every other profession is more or less forced to play a reactionary game, which means you can’t react to something you don’t understand.

I don’t recommend thief youtubers since they’re nothing but big egos and don’t actually understand the other side of the combat vs a thief (as a non-thief class anyway). Probably where most of the thief hate comes from IMO. Since you’re an Engineer, if you have some free time I suggest you check out the videos from Koroshi. He explains what he’s thinking in real time while countering thieves as his Engineer and he used to main a Thief so you can see how he plays the reactionary game.

Thaia.5146:

Two days ago I saw a Thief kiting 2 people AND killing a Dolyak in the same time… that’s insane…

Are you kidding?
From your point of view a good thief should not be able to do that astonishing action?
Incredible.
Lets talk again about thieves:

Last option in PvE
Last option in pvp metagame
Last option in MvM zerg groups ( just check RG videos and count the number of thieves)
Average class in 1vs1

Thieves last envieonment is roaming, thanks to their stealth abilities. Their ability to break fights and avoid zergs is their niche.
Think about it before destroying an entire class.

Best regards,

Haltair, one of the twelve shadows

Thaia.5146:

Snip

“Anticipate where the thief would most likely be.”
“Use channel abilities, because surely everybody must use them (also you have to start it before they stealth!)”
“Use AoEs, because every class has a bunch on hand to counter the multiple times a thief goes stealth in a given fight! (see first tactic)”
“Bring friends and zerg them down!(yes I’ve read this as actual advice on here, lol also see first tactic again)”
“[insert another of the “many” ways to kill thieves]"

It comes down to a “spray and pray” tactic, as the thief is allowed to make informed decisions and you are not (how sophisticated and “innovative”!). You can kill novice thieves using any of the ways I’ve sarcastically parroted but a semi decent thief will just get away if the fight goes wrong for them. It amazes me people are defending this terrible design even when the Anet promoted the idea that thieves should not be stealth dependent and yet they made them pretty much gimps without it.

I’m speaking pretty much from a WvWvW point of view as I no longer care for the PvE here.

ExZee.8109:

Honestly… Play a thief. I think Anet did a brilliant job with the thief’s combat mechanics but the consequence of that brilliance is that the hurdle is so high you’ll never really know how to counter them unless you actually play one to understand it.

I agree with a lot of what you said, except this portion. I found thief to be one of the easiest classes to succeed with in any game I have ever played. It is the only time I have ever actually deleted a fully geared, capped character in any MMO I have played.

They are very, very simple to succeed with in the vast majority of encounters. “Mastering” them is a bit different, but even then, is lower than many other classes imo. Its just an easy class to play, which I dont necessarily view as a negative thing, as it may be taken by most. Its just not the class for me.

I agree with your suggesting of rolling a thief to learn more about them though. It takes very little time to actually learn what makes them tick. So, for just a small bit of time invested, you can save a lot of frustration. edit: Of course, you are still probably better off just leaving a fight with most thieves, as they will just waste time that you could be using to take a camp, sentries, take out siege, etc.

It’s true that you can’t prevent a good thief from getting away if they want to.

There are a lot of players that would be happy just to survive versus a thief, and consider it a win if the thief gives up and moves on.

But if you won’t accept anything less than a kill, you have to prevent the thief from running. That means tricking the thief into thinking he’s winning the fight (or that he at least has a good shot at it), until it’s too late for him to escape.

Stacking conditions is one way to do this because many players won’t notice until it’s too late, and sometimes even if they do notice they don’t have enough condition removal in their build to do anything about it.

Another way is to use burst dps, but save it until the thief is low enough that it will finish him. Sometimes I’ll use grenades for a whole fight, then whip out my flamethrower at the end for a surprise DPS spike.

These don’t always work, of course. Against a really good thief there’s almost nothing that will work, but that’s to be expected. There is no single build that’s good against everyone in every situation.

And with thieves, the situation is just as important as the build. You need mobility to deal with thieves. If you’re escorting a dolyak, your mobility is going to be extremely limited if you want to stay close to it, so you’re going to be at a disadvantage. In a wide open area, with lots of NPCs you can tag for potential rallies, mobility will be much more effective.

-ken

Ommu.1649:

According to ANet devs:
“Just move on. You aren’t going to kill him.”

^ this.

Oh, another way is to swing a sword, swing a sword & swing a sword again ;p

VOLKON.1290:

A blueberry pie is useless if you’re trying to drive in a nail with it. But it still makes one tasty snack when used properly.

Not to mention the 20% chance to steal health on crits

Thaia.5146:

1. Anti Stealth Traps are USELESS. Period.
10 supplies and nearly 4 seconds cast? Really? Seriously guys? Thief will kill me before I open my Inventory…
2. Thieves can easily escape from EVERY fight. He starts a fight, loses, stealths, heals and resets (or escapes)… and so on. Two days ago I saw a Thief kiting 2 people AND killing a Dolyak in the same time… that’s insane…
3. There is no possible way to counter stealth. I am asking – WITH WHAT? With that useless traps?
4. The risk of roaming as a Thief is 0. Beautiful, round ZERO. He can run away whenever he wants.
I have leveled an Engineer especially for WvW (because my Ele was nerfed again, and no – I’m not talking about D/D but about my Mist Form) and I use dual Pistols + H S B U Elixirs and Supply Crate of course. Traits: 10/30/0/30/0. Armor: Power/Vit/Condi. I have a question – how am I supposed to fight versus someone who is invisible 75% of the time? Glue Shot immobilize and Supply Crate stuns are useful but still – they only let me to harass him – not kill…

i play 5 signets rifle /bow warrior and i have same problem
but there are rumors that some CC utility’s and melle weapons, can counter stealth

Tuluum.9638:

…

It was more for the sake of a counter-example than anything; it seems like a lot of people just resign themselves to the idea that it will suck no matter what, which seems a bit self-defeating to me. To be fair I haven’t played a ranger in a very long time, I don’t even have that character now, so if the class itself wasn’t pleasant to fight a thief with I wouldn’t have noticed.

gennyt.3428:

“Use AoEs, because every class has a bunch on hand to counter the multiple times a thief goes stealth in a given fight! (see first tactic)”

What class are you thinking of that doesn’t have sufficient AoE options?

Solori.6025:

O O…dude I have the solution to this. I found out a few days ago when I fought this thief in WvW..

The first thing you do is use y…….

~This user was backstabbed repeatedly and died~

lol Yeah that sums it up. As an ele you have no chance to kill him anyway, all you can do is throw some particle effects at him to impress an imaginary public.

LameFox.6349:

It was more for the sake of a counter-example than anything; it seems like a lot of people just resign themselves to the idea that it will suck no matter what, which seems a bit self-defeating to me. To be fair I haven’t played a ranger in a very long time, I don’t even have that character now, so if the class itself wasn’t pleasant to fight a thief with I wouldn’t have noticed.

I have leveled six classes to 80, with exotic gear. I do not enjoy fighting thieves on any of them. Ranger is just the one I settled on as a “main.”

Like I said, its not a matter of win or lose. It all comes down to whether or not I am enjoying it. I have heard the same from others as well. It obviously wont apply to everyone, such as yourself, because thats how the world works with absolutely everything.

But, the reality is, some of us just find it tedious at best regardless of if others enjoy it. It will be difficult to convince someone they actually enjoy something when they dont! :P And to me, fighting a thief really does kinda suck no matter what.

Thaia.5146:

1. Anti Stealth Traps are USELESS. Period.
10 supplies and nearly 4 seconds cast? Really? Seriously guys? Thief will kill me before I open my Inventory…
2. Thieves can easily escape from EVERY fight. He starts a fight, loses, stealths, heals and resets (or escapes)… and so on. Two days ago I saw a Thief kiting 2 people AND killing a Dolyak in the same time… that’s insane…
3. There is no possible way to counter stealth. I am asking – WITH WHAT? With that useless traps?
4. The risk of roaming as a Thief is 0. Beautiful, round ZERO. He can run away whenever he wants.
I have leveled an Engineer especially for WvW (because my Ele was nerfed again, and no – I’m not talking about D/D but about my Mist Form) and I use dual Pistols + H S B U Elixirs and Supply Crate of course. Traits: 10/30/0/30/0. Armor: Power/Vit/Condi. I have a question – how am I supposed to fight versus someone who is invisible 75% of the time? Glue Shot immobilize and Supply Crate stuns are useful but still – they only let me to harass him – not kill…

An engi that can’t kill thieves with ease? That’s a first for me, AoEs and confusion help, so does learning to time his Backstabs/Sneak attacks so you can dodge them, its roughly a 3 second interval between when the thief enters stealth and then pops out of it. The reason being that they use stealth to cleanse conditions and recover init/health, so getting that timing down is going to make you a thief stomping machine in no time, condi builds aren’t always as effective against thieves though since you don’t necessarily have the burst to kill him the moment he comes at you. For your engi, nade kit should be all you need to kill him. Just keep spamming the nades where he’s mostly likely going to be in stealth, which is probably just circling around to your back side. Takes practice, that’s all.

P.S. shouldn’t this topic be in the engi forum instead? The anti stealth traps are designed for preventing enemies coming into a tower/keep to not be able to stealth their way in, I thought. Don’t think they’ll be at all effective in a 1v1 scenario to be honest.

Engineer advice for fighting a thief:

Shield is better than offhand pistol. Glue shot is decent, but only if you have 25 stacks of might and a crit build so you can kill him in the immobilize period. Shield 4 can reflect a pistol thief’s burst or push a thief out of shadow refuge or interrupt an incoming C&D/BS. Shield 5 can block multiple ranged projectiles or interrupt a C&D/BS or even interrupt twice if you master the throw move.

Even with an HGH build, run at least one kit when roaming. I’d recommend toolkit or grenades, but bombs or even flamethrower can work. I’ve been running a grenadier build that pretty much destroys most thieves, even without the traits I’d still take grenades for the fast aoe damage, CC and conditions they bring. With just pistols it’s hard to stack many conditions quickly, which is required to close the deal with a condition build. Having a kit also allows you to use “on weapon swap” sigils (energy is my favorite, there’s lots of good ones though).

As others have said, roll a thief and try some sPvP to get a feel for how they play at 80. When you learn their timings it’s easier to predict when to use counters.

Get some toughness in your build. High HP is good against conditions, and helps in zerg fights where you have heals and protection coming in from every which way, but it doesn’t offer much sustain in 1vX roaming. Toughness makes your healing more effective at refilling your HP pool. Without at least 2500 armor I feel too squishy in WvW. Try replacing half of your gear with rabid stat (precison/toughness/condition) to get some toughness, the loss of power isn’t much of an issue as the extra crit will add damage to make up for it, and precision actually synergizes very well with engineer condition builds since you can trait for more burning and bleeding on crits.

To avoid this being moved to the engineer forums, some advice for every other class:

Toughness is your friend. CC is your friend. Dodges (well timed through knowledge of thief builds/skills/rotations) are your friends.

Don’t panic and blow everything at once. This is where having toughness helps, a couple extra seconds to think is golden in a fight where your enemy is trying to surprise you and kill before you can react.

If you can fight a thief to the point where they stealth and run away, you’ve won. Just watch your back and be ready in case they come back. They may have reset the fight, but waiting on their cooldowns means yours should be back too.

If you are in a small group getting harassed by thieves, make sure everyone knows not to “revive” downed but to aoe/CC/cleave the crap out of the area right above the downed ally. Stealth stomping is the main technique thieves use to whittle down groups, don’t allow them the luxury. There are ways they can avoid this technique, but they involve blowing major cooldowns or initiative.

Tuluum.9638:

And to me, fighting a thief really does kinda suck no matter what.

Why?

Thrashbarg.9820:

If you are in a small group getting harassed by thieves, make sure everyone knows not to “revive” downed but to aoe/CC/cleave the crap out of the area right above the downed ally. Stealth stomping is the main technique thieves use to whittle down groups, don’t allow them the luxury. There are ways they can avoid this technique, but they involve blowing major cooldowns or initiative.

I’m starting to make a hobby of putting things on downed players with a thief hopping about. Engineer’s mine(s) can do it, but I think my favourites are marks and/or wells. Something about seeing them trigger this or this in particular never gets old (the former more for large fights, for reasons you can probably imagine).

LameFox.6349:

Tuluum.9638:

And to me, fighting a thief really does kinda suck no matter what.

Why?

Thats like asking someone why their favorite color is their favorite color. Its subjective.

The things that turn me off from those engagements may be exactly why you enjoy the fights.

Ill go into it a bit though;

First, I dislike the implementation of the stealth mechanic as a whole. This applies to both playing AS a thief, as well as fighting against them. I much prefer systems that require skill to become invisible. Thieves would turn, very quickly, into my favorite class to fight against if stealth required the player to skillfully skulk through the shadows and use the environment to hide his/her movements (like in games such as Metal Gear Solid, Thief, etc). At this point, I would also immediately roll a thief again and they would probably become my main very quickly.

The amount of regen when entering stealth, if specced properly of course, turns a thief into a bunker of sorts. And, I dont really enjoy playing against bunkers of any class, nor do I enjoy playing them myself. Its a fight where even egregious mistakes can be too easily covered by survivability. Even if not traited for such healing, the stealth implementation plays the same role as high survivability in other classes that have built as a bunker. It turns into a fight of attrition where skill, mistakes, and quick decision making start to become much less relevant (though they obviously still apply).

A “win” against a competent thief will involve them running away. Something about that just isnt enjoyable to me. When I “win,” I want to actually win, not just scare someone off. I dont like “winning” by the other player essentially giving up, whether that is by running away stealthed, or throwing their hands up in the air and stopping pressing buttons.

There is more, but really, its starting to go pretty off topic. In the end, its subjective. My success rate against thieves is right about the same as fighting any other class, but I get the same amount of enjoyment out of it as I do PvDooring. Which is to say, not much at all.

Why do you enjoy fighting thieves so much? :P

Azaruil.3406:

I think your main problem there is that you’re running all elixirs and dual pistols.

^ If your build is not working in some situations, you should tweak it until it works better.

Lifewaster.5912:

Ethics.4519:

Make a thief and play a couple of hot join matches in spvp. You’ll quickly realize you’re not as invincible as you think you are.

Ppl often refer to sPVP thieves whenever WVW thieves are discussed, as if sPvP balance somehow justifies their power in WvW.

It’s true that thieves are inexplicably stronger in WvW than in PvP for the reasons you mentioned. However, playing tournaments is still the best way to get better at small fights, period. In an hour of WvW, the average non-thief player probably experiences between zero and two real fights between roughly even forces of ten or less. In an hour of PvP, you’ll find dozens of fights like that.

The bottom line is, it’s hard to be good at something you’ve never done.

this is very true ^^^
and really an engi struggling against thieve? its a shame many ppl dont realize how good of a dualist class an engi really is

Usually it goes like this:
Thief: Hey I’m a Thief. I’m gonna kill you!1!!1
5 seconds later
Thief: OH kitten, OH kitten, OH kitten I’M DYING
PUFF
Godmode
REPEAT

I used a stealth trap on some cheap d/p Viz thief yesterday LOL funniest in game moment ever. He kept using black powder and heart seeking throught for a full 20 seconds.. LMAO he ran around like a chicken without a head just mashin buttons trying to go stealth (thats when you know your garbage)! I cant wait to get home and buy some more to use tonight!

omg char limit…

Tuluum.9638:

Thats like asking someone why their favorite color is their favorite color. Its subjective.

I’d say it’s more like asking why you like a thing which chances to be that colour, prior to finding out you like the colour.

Tuluum.9638:

First, I dislike the implementation of the stealth mechanic as a whole. This applies to both playing AS a thief, as well as fighting against them. I much prefer systems that require skill to become invisible…

I don’t necessarily disagree with this actually. Keeping in stealth by doing things like ‘stab a rabbit’ or ‘fire a pistol and leap back and forth’ are quite amusing to me, but don’t really seem logical or fitting as ways to sneak. I’m willing to overlook it under the circumstances though because I think it would be very hard to implement that way in a game like GW2. For what it is, I think they’ve made it quite nice graphically in a lot of ways, but it’s still an MMO and takes the approach of ‘build with old things so people with oversized calculators can scrape by (until their CPUs melt)’.

It’s an issue that also pops up on Planetside2, which appears to have a similar approach (I feel like in five years we’ll finally be using DX11 in MMO’s) right down to the CPU thing. They have issues though with finding a happy medium between ‘totally invisible’ and ‘translucent grey blob you can see anywhere’ when it comes to lowered graphical settings a lot of players use. Also one faction, typically in dark purple and black colours by default, is known for being much harder to see in the darker areas – infiltrator or not – while when they’ve gone with brighter colours and shiny effects, some have difficulty hiding at all. It’d be annoying for whole new reasons if, with an environment conductive to actual sneaking, we begin to find people with a certain faction colour, armour skin, etc. etc. have an advantage when it comes to hiding. Sort of like the whole ‘be an asura so nobody knows what in the nine hells you’re doing’ thing, or ‘fall off the jumping puzzle because your charr obscures the tiny area of you which you can actually use to land with, and your view is trying to become one with the wall’.

Tuluum.9638:

…It turns into a fight of attrition where skill, mistakes, and quick decision making start to become much less relevant (though they obviously still apply).

I disagree with this bit though. A particular mistake may be less relevant, as in general any one move is less relevant, but a longer fight also means a longer time you both need to focus, and plenty of time to make more mistakes or errors of judgement that still put you at a disadvantage compared to your previous situation: it still matters because whoever makes the more frequent or fatal mistakes is worse off relative to the one who doesn’t, even if that ends up being a very very close call (which can make it quite interesting IMO). Ironically I more often hear the reverse of this argument: that when TTK is lower, sheer chance (including outside factors like lag, especially in games which put all their servers in Frankfurt and Dallas) can make a huge difference, and so skill plays less of a role. Not that I think either preference is invalid, but I do take issue with the idea that one is necessarily easier or harder (once you get past the learning stages anyway; I can see how it’s easier to learn when TTK is high because even if you fail miserably you’ve more time to take in how you failed, instead of bam, dead).

Tuluum.9638:

A “win” against a competent thief will involve them running away…

I find this a bit questionable as well, really. Sure, they’re an evasive class and they do stand a good chance of escaping if they’re a decent player. I actually quite like the stage when I’m getting people to run off, and I know that I’ve done this much right, leaving just a few more tweaks to my build/approach and then I can work on finishing them off as well. This won’t be for everyone, which is fine, but I think to present it as the best outcome really does nobody any favours.

Essentially you’ve reduced any thief who fails to escape to less than ‘competent’, and by extension nobody can ever learn to catch and kill a competent thief, because if you could it wouldn’t have been one. It’s like a Catch-22, only all the more absurd because it’s self-applied.

Tuluum.9638:

Why do you enjoy fighting thieves so much? :P

Honestly, besides the reasons I put up-post, I think one significant thing is because so many other people don’t. The harder they fall, and all that…

Tuluum.9638:

I agree with a lot of what you said, except this portion. I found thief to be one of the easiest classes to succeed with in any game I have ever played. It is the only time I have ever actually deleted a fully geared, capped character in any MMO I have played.

They are very, very simple to succeed with in the vast majority of encounters. “Mastering” them is a bit different, but even then, is lower than many other classes imo. Its just an easy class to play, which I dont necessarily view as a negative thing, as it may be taken by most. Its just not the class for me.

I agree with your suggesting of rolling a thief to learn more about them though. It takes very little time to actually learn what makes them tick. So, for just a small bit of time invested, you can save a lot of frustration. edit: Of course, you are still probably better off just leaving a fight with most thieves, as they will just waste time that you could be using to take a camp, sentries, take out siege, etc.

Me saying the combat mechanics is brilliant doesn’t imply that it’s easy nor hard to play. That’s really a balance issue which is dependent on numbers, not mechanics or it’s just plain skill difference. Unfortunately, I can’t say that the combat mechanics of other professions is as well thought-out as the Thief, which might also be a factor.

Of course ultimately the best way to win a (troll) Thief is to not fight one, but it’s easier said than done when you’re caught out in the open alone versus Anet’s intended most mobile profession in the game.