Guild Wars 2

I don’t think shorter games is the answer, because then WvW loses something… it loses the ability to look at the long game, and just becomes a zerg fest for points.

silvermember.8941:

Kryptorchid.7620:

Implementing the systems listed above, that supposedly are designed to “not punish NA players,” are instead punishing coordination, preparation, and understanding of the WvW system for servers that a) field 24/7 populations or b) have a strong Oceanic presence.

I think the only thing that has merit is hiding the score, but then again, someone will just make a spreadsheet to track everything.

WvW is a battle between 3 servers. If one server is fighting against nobody it defeats the purpose of even having WvW be about 3 servers. In theory, at the end of the week the winner should have outplayed the other 2 servers, in most cases however the winner is decided because they manage to amass a lead when nobody is fighting against them.

It doesn’t take any coordination to fight against no enemy does it? Anyways, it doesn’t matter the scoring system needs to be fixed so it doesn’t reward fighting against nobody.

Actually, TA has shown it takes a ton of coordination to fight against no enemies — they setup an alliance to field people 24/7 (note: not completely fill the server 24/7). ArenaNet allowed people to transfer to HoD, which exacerbated the problem in “off-peak” times. So props to TA and the rest of the players on HoD for understanding the system. Shame to ArenaNet for not realizing WvW would be so popular.

I’m a henge player and wouldn’t mind some update to the pointing system but the suggestions in the OP sound more desperate than rational. It’s not acceptable specially for someone like me who isn’t available on US prime times.
WvW is a 24/7 battleground and making it act different in different time slots wouldn’t make sense.
I believe there’s already a system in the game that gives bonus to servers with a significantly lower population in WvW at any given time (last time I saw something like that was in the beta I believe so I can’t verify if it’s still in the game). If there has to be a dynamic element to score distribution, it should be based on the number of players available in WvW not on the time of day.

silvermember.8941:

Casia.4281:

Ascii.9726:

Some system maybe that makes all points on the maps (Camps, Towers, Keeps & SM) worth a % less of there value.

What also might work would be making value change constantly depending on WvW population, for example

at 100% filled instance for all 3 servers (so 100% / 100% wvw population);

Camps – 10 Points
Towers – 20 Points
Keeps – 50 Points
Castle – 70 Points

This would ideally be primetime population and therefor points, during off-peak hours were say one server is 70% (the EU-night capping guilds) and others say 30% each (so 43% total / 100% wvw population);

Camps – 4 Points
Towers – 7 Points
Keeps – 22 Points
Castle – 30 Points
(43% of value rounded up/ down to nearest 1)

This kind of system would reduce the effectivess and mass lead given to higher EU populated US servers whilst still promoting night cappings for additional points (the more EU players you would get on, the more overall % wvw population so more points)

Thoughts?

Oh no, we are about to lose, SM. everyone log off to make our point loss lower.

Variable points based on participation create a system where it can be advantageous to not log in on purpose.

And they still get points so whats your point? And it will be during off peak hours so the strategy of logging of wont even be effective.

Random Player on your server: “Oh kitten! We are getting pushed out of all our maps! Quick, everyone log off so all those capture points tick for 1 point, and then log back in and cap everything in 15min.”

Kryptorchid.7620:

silvermember.8941:

Kryptorchid.7620:

Implementing the systems listed above, that supposedly are designed to “not punish NA players,” are instead punishing coordination, preparation, and understanding of the WvW system for servers that a) field 24/7 populations or b) have a strong Oceanic presence.

I think the only thing that has merit is hiding the score, but then again, someone will just make a spreadsheet to track everything.

WvW is a battle between 3 servers. If one server is fighting against nobody it defeats the purpose of even having WvW be about 3 servers. In theory, at the end of the week the winner should have outplayed the other 2 servers, in most cases however the winner is decided because they manage to amass a lead when nobody is fighting against them.

It doesn’t take any coordination to fight against no enemy does it? Anyways, it doesn’t matter the scoring system needs to be fixed so it doesn’t reward fighting against nobody.

Actually, TA has shown it takes a ton of coordination to fight against no enemies — they setup an alliance to field people 24/7 (note: not completely fill the server 24/7). ArenaNet allowed people to transfer to HoD, which exacerbated the problem in “off-peak” times. So props to TA and the rest of the players on HoD for understanding the system. Shame to ArenaNet for not realizing WvW would be so popular.

While true that TA did nothing more than use the system to their advantage, I still believe that stacking servers has hurt the game.

Its sort of the same problem people had when Lebron and D Wayde colluded to play on the same team in Miami. It wasnt wrong per se, but went against the spirit of competition that makes the game great.

In the past, the best pvpers did not collude and conspire to all join the same server to stomp pick up groupers. The best guilds used to go to underdog servers to prove their mettle. What the heck happened?

We know that the activity in any server will always be higher on weekends, so they can for example make the score of the weekends add up faster (about 7 minutes) making the operations with fewer people less impacting on the results. I know that many people are thinking that this way the war will be focused only on weekends, but if we analyze it mathematically, adding the weekdays score (Monday to Friday), it would still overcome the score of the weekend. (and switch the reset for Sunday).

Another thing they can do is change the limits of people, creating groups before the total limit that would enter the war only when the 3 servers reach that amount of people. For example: 50% and 75%, a server wouldn’t be able to exceed the amount of 50% if the other servers didn’t have the same amount of people.

Another point, that I don’t even like that much, is buffing the players in less quantity, I know that there is a buff that we receive, but I’m not talking about that, I’m talking about an effective buff, that improves the performance like the defense if the difference in numbers is really significant.

The idea about the wars happening 24 hours per day, 7 days per week, it’s good because of the different time zones and everything else, but the idea of being the best server is totally distorted, because the real best server is the one with more people distributed among the time zones. I say that not only thinking in our server, but in the game balance, because we know that the way things are now can cause impacts as: players mass transference, frustration from those who are losing and even from those who are winning because it becomes boring.

Roland Falantyr.3290:

Kryptorchid.7620:

silvermember.8941:

Kryptorchid.7620:

Implementing the systems listed above, that supposedly are designed to “not punish NA players,” are instead punishing coordination, preparation, and understanding of the WvW system for servers that a) field 24/7 populations or b) have a strong Oceanic presence.

I think the only thing that has merit is hiding the score, but then again, someone will just make a spreadsheet to track everything.

WvW is a battle between 3 servers. If one server is fighting against nobody it defeats the purpose of even having WvW be about 3 servers. In theory, at the end of the week the winner should have outplayed the other 2 servers, in most cases however the winner is decided because they manage to amass a lead when nobody is fighting against them.

It doesn’t take any coordination to fight against no enemy does it? Anyways, it doesn’t matter the scoring system needs to be fixed so it doesn’t reward fighting against nobody.

Actually, TA has shown it takes a ton of coordination to fight against no enemies — they setup an alliance to field people 24/7 (note: not completely fill the server 24/7). ArenaNet allowed people to transfer to HoD, which exacerbated the problem in “off-peak” times. So props to TA and the rest of the players on HoD for understanding the system. Shame to ArenaNet for not realizing WvW would be so popular.

While true that TA did nothing more than use the system to their advantage, I still believe that stacking servers has hurt the game.

Its sort of the same problem people had when Lebron and D Wayde colluded to play on the same team in Miami. It wasnt wrong per se, but went against the spirit of competition that makes the game great.

In the past, the best pvpers did not collude and conspire to all join the same server to stomp pick up groupers. The best guilds used to go to underdog servers to prove their mettle. What the heck happened?

I think what a lot of people fail to realize is that the servers weren’t stacked by the alliances — they were stacked by ANet allowing unmitigated free transfers since day one and doing NOTHING about it for high population servers.

Example: HoD was full during NA peak hours on Day 1 of the official launch; however, anytime the server didn’t have “full” activity, people could and did transfer. Since NA peak is 6PM-1AM EST roughly, that is 17 hours where people are free to jump on the HoD train.

Same things happened with NS, SBI, JQ, etc.

ArenaNet kitten their game up, plain and simple.

Kryptorchid.7620:

Roland Falantyr.3290:

Kryptorchid.7620:

silvermember.8941:

Kryptorchid.7620:

Implementing the systems listed above, that supposedly are designed to “not punish NA players,” are instead punishing coordination, preparation, and understanding of the WvW system for servers that a) field 24/7 populations or b) have a strong Oceanic presence.

I think the only thing that has merit is hiding the score, but then again, someone will just make a spreadsheet to track everything.

WvW is a battle between 3 servers. If one server is fighting against nobody it defeats the purpose of even having WvW be about 3 servers. In theory, at the end of the week the winner should have outplayed the other 2 servers, in most cases however the winner is decided because they manage to amass a lead when nobody is fighting against them.

It doesn’t take any coordination to fight against no enemy does it? Anyways, it doesn’t matter the scoring system needs to be fixed so it doesn’t reward fighting against nobody.

Actually, TA has shown it takes a ton of coordination to fight against no enemies — they setup an alliance to field people 24/7 (note: not completely fill the server 24/7). ArenaNet allowed people to transfer to HoD, which exacerbated the problem in “off-peak” times. So props to TA and the rest of the players on HoD for understanding the system. Shame to ArenaNet for not realizing WvW would be so popular.

While true that TA did nothing more than use the system to their advantage, I still believe that stacking servers has hurt the game.

Its sort of the same problem people had when Lebron and D Wayde colluded to play on the same team in Miami. It wasnt wrong per se, but went against the spirit of competition that makes the game great.

In the past, the best pvpers did not collude and conspire to all join the same server to stomp pick up groupers. The best guilds used to go to underdog servers to prove their mettle. What the heck happened?

I think what you fail to realize is that the servers won’t stack by the alliances — they were stacked by ANet allowing unmitigated free transfers since day one and doing NOTHING about it for high population servers.

Alliances started the issue by stacking the servers. Open transfers just made the problem much much worse.

Kryptorchid.7620:

Roland Falantyr.3290:

Kryptorchid.7620:

silvermember.8941:

Kryptorchid.7620:

Implementing the systems listed above, that supposedly are designed to “not punish NA players,” are instead punishing coordination, preparation, and understanding of the WvW system for servers that a) field 24/7 populations or b) have a strong Oceanic presence.

I think the only thing that has merit is hiding the score, but then again, someone will just make a spreadsheet to track everything.

WvW is a battle between 3 servers. If one server is fighting against nobody it defeats the purpose of even having WvW be about 3 servers. In theory, at the end of the week the winner should have outplayed the other 2 servers, in most cases however the winner is decided because they manage to amass a lead when nobody is fighting against them.

It doesn’t take any coordination to fight against no enemy does it? Anyways, it doesn’t matter the scoring system needs to be fixed so it doesn’t reward fighting against nobody.

Actually, TA has shown it takes a ton of coordination to fight against no enemies — they setup an alliance to field people 24/7 (note: not completely fill the server 24/7). ArenaNet allowed people to transfer to HoD, which exacerbated the problem in “off-peak” times. So props to TA and the rest of the players on HoD for understanding the system. Shame to ArenaNet for not realizing WvW would be so popular.

While true that TA did nothing more than use the system to their advantage, I still believe that stacking servers has hurt the game.

Its sort of the same problem people had when Lebron and D Wayde colluded to play on the same team in Miami. It wasnt wrong per se, but went against the spirit of competition that makes the game great.

In the past, the best pvpers did not collude and conspire to all join the same server to stomp pick up groupers. The best guilds used to go to underdog servers to prove their mettle. What the heck happened?

I think what you fail to realize is that the servers won’t stack by the alliances — they were stacked by ANet allowing unmitigated free transfers since day one and doing NOTHING about it for high population servers.

Yep. Aion made this same mistake and it destroyed what little balance that existed. I’m amazed the ANet devs fell into the same trap. They have done so many other things right, you would think they wouldn’t make such a basic mistake… but they did.

The herd always gravitates to the easy win, they don’t care about queue times. HoD is percieved as an easy win.

Would there be something wrong with say, limiting the off hours NA time to just the Eternal Battlegrounds? That map is already the most important with SM and and it being the only “even” map.

I am not sure if there would be too many and the Queue would be untenable but I think its a good middle ground. The game itself doesnt need to change anything, the battle is still “24/7” for everyone and its more balanced because the offpeak times only have to fill a single map.

i agree with the OP , WvW need some adjustments otherwise people will just get angry about this flawed system and will move to sPvP or another games.

displacedTitan.6897:

Would there be something wrong with say, limiting the off hours NA time to just the Eternal Battlegrounds? That map is already the most important with SM and and it being the only “even” map.

I am not sure if there would be too many and the Queue would be untenable but I think its a good middle ground. The game itself doesnt need to change anything, the battle is still “24/7” for everyone and its more balanced because the offpeak times only have to fill a single map.

You can’t penalize off peak players that way. They pay for the same game we do. But something does have to be done and soon. Otherwise people will just stop queueing altogether.

Human beings have an inate sense of fairness, it has been shown to exist at a very early age. When that sense is abused they automatically turn on the abuser, which in this case is ANet (and to a lesser extent HoD). ANet is not doing themselves any favors by allowing this to continue.

How does my suggestion penalize anyone? They still get to play W3 and have a meaningful impact.

displacedTitan.6897:

How does my suggestion penalize anyone? They still get to play W3 and have a meaningful impact.

They don’t get to play Borderlands Maps… just because they don’t have the same schedule as you or I.

That will never fly with ANet.

EDIT: SM is far less important than having 3 orbs.

Sky.9347:

Phaedryn.3698:

Sky.9347:

Phaedryn.3698:

Sky.9347:

displacedTitan.6897:

The other side of this argument is that without the 24/7 chance to come back HoD would have lost within the first weekend.
All it would take is a few hours of two servers ganging up like happened this weekend. SBI and ET essentially kept borders with each other while beating down HoD and put them back what 30k and 10k or so, respectively.
Now that its a complete 3 way and the scores are even in NA primetime there would be NO way to catch back up if not for nightcapping. Population balance is the ONLY way to fix these issues. The same has been true for ALL 24/7 pvp fights in any game. You can never mechanic your way out of this problem.

Let’s say for a moment that HoD didn’t have the massive night crew.

As SBI pulled further ahead, it would be my estimation that ET and HoD would begin double teaming them back.

Then ET would pull ahead, and SBI and HoD would beat them senseless.

As the design intended.

Agreed, the only real problem is that this mechanic requires enough time to pass to allow it to work. Right now pairings are too short in duration, even at 1 week, to give this time to work as intended. Which is really a big part of the problem, we are seeing (and reacting to) spikes that would, over time, level out quite a bit. The pairings just do not take place over long enough periods for this to ever happen.

Well, these spikes occur once every day. I don’t see how they would level out, since it is the same server that gets pushed back during the day, and explodes with massive map domination every single night.

Aside from weekends, this pattern has been very predictable and recurring.

True, but without with a limited duration coupled with a win/lose mechanic (point scores) nobody would care. The average would be (more) acceptable. For me, it’s everyone worried about the score that is the issue. Frankly, I hate that there is a publicly viewable scoring system.

I agree that the score total is perhaps a bad idea.

It could be cool, if the matches were balanced – there was an anti snowball mechanic – and some kind of reward for 1st AND 2nd place.

Without those things, it seems relatively useless for any positive contribution to W3.

Hmmm, I’m not sure if you understand my argument. I don’t want there to be a 1st and 2nd place. I want a war/battle with an ebb and flow, not scoring. I want to take X, Y, and Z today knowing as I do so that I will lose them. However, the tide of the battle will change over time. Today, my server might hold the majority of the territory but nothing is set in stone and tomorrow half our lands may be taken by the combined effort of the other two servers working in unison. There should never be a situation where players can look at some numerical value and decide they have “lost” so there is no point in playing. An epic battle for territory that never has a declared “winner” (or loser) is what WvWvW should be. Make the buffs/advantages received by taking territory (and the orbs) server wide and significant enough that people will drop what they are doing to help take, or defend, things. Anything to turn WvWvW into just another meaningless mini-game is the opposite of what I expect out of the game.

Scoring, ranking, winning/losing just makes it another arena, and just as pointless.

Sky.9347:

displacedTitan.6897:

How does my suggestion penalize anyone? They still get to play W3 and have a meaningful impact.

They don’t get to play Borderlands Maps… just because they don’t have the same schedule as you or I.

That will never fly with ANet.

EDIT: SM is far less important than having 3 orbs.

The Orb bonuses are a whole different can of worms. Why someone would make a mechanic that helps the winners win harder is completely beyond me.

No they wouldnt get to play borderlands maps, so what? Its still W3 in EB and it would make it fair for EVERYONE.

I play on HoD and it was fun getting stomped this weekend by both servers, had the play continued all week I think we would have seen what you described where ET and HoD would take out SBI preferentially to even the scores up and balance would occur naturally.

This is impossible however, my suggestion would still allow meaningful play for everyone and allow a modicum of balance WITHOUT changing any of the current mechanics (other than maybe orbs but again they are just silly right now).

Phaedryn.3698:

Sky.9347:

Phaedryn.3698:

Sky.9347:

Phaedryn.3698:

Sky.9347:

displacedTitan.6897:

The other side of this argument is that without the 24/7 chance to come back HoD would have lost within the first weekend.
All it would take is a few hours of two servers ganging up like happened this weekend. SBI and ET essentially kept borders with each other while beating down HoD and put them back what 30k and 10k or so, respectively.
Now that its a complete 3 way and the scores are even in NA primetime there would be NO way to catch back up if not for nightcapping. Population balance is the ONLY way to fix these issues. The same has been true for ALL 24/7 pvp fights in any game. You can never mechanic your way out of this problem.

Let’s say for a moment that HoD didn’t have the massive night crew.

As SBI pulled further ahead, it would be my estimation that ET and HoD would begin double teaming them back.

Then ET would pull ahead, and SBI and HoD would beat them senseless.

As the design intended.

Agreed, the only real problem is that this mechanic requires enough time to pass to allow it to work. Right now pairings are too short in duration, even at 1 week, to give this time to work as intended. Which is really a big part of the problem, we are seeing (and reacting to) spikes that would, over time, level out quite a bit. The pairings just do not take place over long enough periods for this to ever happen.

Well, these spikes occur once every day. I don’t see how they would level out, since it is the same server that gets pushed back during the day, and explodes with massive map domination every single night.

Aside from weekends, this pattern has been very predictable and recurring.

True, but without with a limited duration coupled with a win/lose mechanic (point scores) nobody would care. The average would be (more) acceptable. For me, it’s everyone worried about the score that is the issue. Frankly, I hate that there is a publicly viewable scoring system.

I agree that the score total is perhaps a bad idea.

It could be cool, if the matches were balanced – there was an anti snowball mechanic – and some kind of reward for 1st AND 2nd place.

Without those things, it seems relatively useless for any positive contribution to W3.

Hmmm, I’m not sure if you understand my argument. I don’t want there to be a 1st and 2nd place. I want a war/battle with an ebb and flow, not scoring. I want to take X, Y, and Z today knowing as I do so that I will lose them. However, the tide of the battle will change over time. Today, my server might hold the majority of the territory but nothing is set in stone and tomorrow half our lands may be taken by the combined effort of the other two servers working in unison. There should never be a situation where players can look at some numerical value and decide they have “lost” so there is no point in playing. An epic battle for territory that never has a declared “winner” (or loser) is what WvWvW should be. Make the buffs/advantages received by taking territory (and the orbs) server wide and significant enough that people will drop what they are doing to help take, or defend, things. Anything to turn WvWvW into just another meaningless mini-game is the opposite of what I expect out of the game.

Scoring, ranking, winning/losing just makes it another arena, and just as pointless.

Making buff significant enough that would get PvErs to drop their 5th run throught Cof is not a bad idea. Making so that tokens or gold actually see a big enough dip or increases that makes it so that everybody and their grandma would want a piece of the action. But i think think the points should be hidden from players though.

minor bonus for not participating for the ppl totally afraid of PvP and major bonus for each minute you spend in WvW.

Roland Falantyr.3290:

Again, if you are ok with this I deeply suspect you care little for the long-term health of this game.

You are the one asking for WvWvW to be only done during certain times or to be turned off during my playtimes which marginalizes my efforts because you are sleeping.

I may get to take easier keeps but you get to play against full teams during your times which is alot more fun imo.

The longterm health of this game is about ~20% of what we have now sticking around while the rest quit because they cant handle losing or not having a pve gear grind in pvp.

This game will be alot better once those people quit in the next couple weeks or month

Davion.8754:

Roland Falantyr.3290:

Again, if you are ok with this I deeply suspect you care little for the long-term health of this game.

You are the one asking for WvWvW to be only done during certain times or to be turned off during my playtimes which marginalizes my efforts because you are sleeping.

I may get to take easier keeps but you get to play against full teams during your times which is alot more fun imo.

The longterm health of this game is about ~20% of what we have now sticking around while the rest quit because they cant handle losing or not having a pve gear grind in pvp.

This game will be alot better once those people quit in the next couple weeks or month

I never said that. Nice try Mr. politician.

Also, I doubt ANET shares your sentinment that the game will be better off with an 80% population drop.

Troll much?

Phaedryn.3698:

Sky.9347:

Phaedryn.3698:

Sky.9347:

Phaedryn.3698:

Sky.9347:

displacedTitan.6897:

The other side of this argument is that without the 24/7 chance to come back HoD would have lost within the first weekend.
All it would take is a few hours of two servers ganging up like happened this weekend. SBI and ET essentially kept borders with each other while beating down HoD and put them back what 30k and 10k or so, respectively.
Now that its a complete 3 way and the scores are even in NA primetime there would be NO way to catch back up if not for nightcapping. Population balance is the ONLY way to fix these issues. The same has been true for ALL 24/7 pvp fights in any game. You can never mechanic your way out of this problem.

Let’s say for a moment that HoD didn’t have the massive night crew.

As SBI pulled further ahead, it would be my estimation that ET and HoD would begin double teaming them back.

Then ET would pull ahead, and SBI and HoD would beat them senseless.

As the design intended.

Agreed, the only real problem is that this mechanic requires enough time to pass to allow it to work. Right now pairings are too short in duration, even at 1 week, to give this time to work as intended. Which is really a big part of the problem, we are seeing (and reacting to) spikes that would, over time, level out quite a bit. The pairings just do not take place over long enough periods for this to ever happen.

Well, these spikes occur once every day. I don’t see how they would level out, since it is the same server that gets pushed back during the day, and explodes with massive map domination every single night.

Aside from weekends, this pattern has been very predictable and recurring.

True, but without with a limited duration coupled with a win/lose mechanic (point scores) nobody would care. The average would be (more) acceptable. For me, it’s everyone worried about the score that is the issue. Frankly, I hate that there is a publicly viewable scoring system.

I agree that the score total is perhaps a bad idea.

It could be cool, if the matches were balanced – there was an anti snowball mechanic – and some kind of reward for 1st AND 2nd place.

Without those things, it seems relatively useless for any positive contribution to W3.

Hmmm, I’m not sure if you understand my argument. I don’t want there to be a 1st and 2nd place. I want a war/battle with an ebb and flow, not scoring. I want to take X, Y, and Z today knowing as I do so that I will lose them. However, the tide of the battle will change over time. Today, my server might hold the majority of the territory but nothing is set in stone and tomorrow half our lands may be taken by the combined effort of the other two servers working in unison. There should never be a situation where players can look at some numerical value and decide they have “lost” so there is no point in playing. An epic battle for territory that never has a declared “winner” (or loser) is what WvWvW should be. Make the buffs/advantages received by taking territory (and the orbs) server wide and significant enough that people will drop what they are doing to help take, or defend, things. Anything to turn WvWvW into just another meaningless mini-game is the opposite of what I expect out of the game.

Scoring, ranking, winning/losing just makes it another arena, and just as pointless.

I understand your argument, I just poorly worded my response.

What I mean is – I agree with you, and would prefer that direction.

HOWEVER – I think the point system could be cool, if…

So whats your proposal to change WvWvW that doesnt involve marginalizing my efforts while you are (sleeping/working/whatever) or forces me to look for some european server because I work different hours than you do?

It doesnt matter what ANET wants, the majority of current WvW players will quit once they cant stomp ungeared lowbies due to superior gear, once the majority of players are 80 with the same gear these players will leave in droves after they start losing.

Davion.8754:

So whats your proposal to change WvWvW that doesnt involve marginalizing my efforts while you are (sleeping/working/whatever) or forces me to look for some european server because I work different hours than you do?

It doesnt matter what ANET wants, the majority of current WvW players will quit once they cant stomp ungeared lowbies due to superior gear, once the majority of players are 80 with the same gear these players will leave in droves after they start losing.

Lowering the player caps in WvW during off peak hours would help. It would hurt HoD because they already have queues 24/7 but in the long run it would encourage some off peak players to transfer and help the other servers even out the population.

The ultimate goal should be to have equal participation amongst the servers. That is very hard to do, but ANet could be doing a much better job of it than they are now.

Sky.9347:

Phaedryn.3698:

Sky.9347:

Phaedryn.3698:

Sky.9347:

Phaedryn.3698:

Sky.9347:

displacedTitan.6897:

The other side of this argument is that without the 24/7 chance to come back HoD would have lost within the first weekend.
All it would take is a few hours of two servers ganging up like happened this weekend. SBI and ET essentially kept borders with each other while beating down HoD and put them back what 30k and 10k or so, respectively.
Now that its a complete 3 way and the scores are even in NA primetime there would be NO way to catch back up if not for nightcapping. Population balance is the ONLY way to fix these issues. The same has been true for ALL 24/7 pvp fights in any game. You can never mechanic your way out of this problem.

Let’s say for a moment that HoD didn’t have the massive night crew.

As SBI pulled further ahead, it would be my estimation that ET and HoD would begin double teaming them back.

Then ET would pull ahead, and SBI and HoD would beat them senseless.

As the design intended.

Agreed, the only real problem is that this mechanic requires enough time to pass to allow it to work. Right now pairings are too short in duration, even at 1 week, to give this time to work as intended. Which is really a big part of the problem, we are seeing (and reacting to) spikes that would, over time, level out quite a bit. The pairings just do not take place over long enough periods for this to ever happen.

Well, these spikes occur once every day. I don’t see how they would level out, since it is the same server that gets pushed back during the day, and explodes with massive map domination every single night.

Aside from weekends, this pattern has been very predictable and recurring.

True, but without with a limited duration coupled with a win/lose mechanic (point scores) nobody would care. The average would be (more) acceptable. For me, it’s everyone worried about the score that is the issue. Frankly, I hate that there is a publicly viewable scoring system.

I agree that the score total is perhaps a bad idea.

It could be cool, if the matches were balanced – there was an anti snowball mechanic – and some kind of reward for 1st AND 2nd place.

Without those things, it seems relatively useless for any positive contribution to W3.

Hmmm, I’m not sure if you understand my argument. I don’t want there to be a 1st and 2nd place. I want a war/battle with an ebb and flow, not scoring. I want to take X, Y, and Z today knowing as I do so that I will lose them. However, the tide of the battle will change over time. Today, my server might hold the majority of the territory but nothing is set in stone and tomorrow half our lands may be taken by the combined effort of the other two servers working in unison. There should never be a situation where players can look at some numerical value and decide they have “lost” so there is no point in playing. An epic battle for territory that never has a declared “winner” (or loser) is what WvWvW should be. Make the buffs/advantages received by taking territory (and the orbs) server wide and significant enough that people will drop what they are doing to help take, or defend, things. Anything to turn WvWvW into just another meaningless mini-game is the opposite of what I expect out of the game.

Scoring, ranking, winning/losing just makes it another arena, and just as pointless.

I understand your argument, I just poorly worded my response.

What I mean is – I agree with you, and would prefer that direction.

HOWEVER – I think the point system could be cool, if…

Gotcha, t’was I that misunderstood then

Davion.8754:

So whats your proposal to change WvWvW that doesnt involve marginalizing my efforts while you are (sleeping/working/whatever) or forces me to look for some european server because I work different hours than you do?

It doesnt matter what ANET wants, the majority of current WvW players will quit once they cant stomp ungeared lowbies due to superior gear, once the majority of players are 80 with the same gear these players will leave in droves after they start losing.

There are a few things on the table suggested by players to reduce the gap in impact that occurs with off-peak NA time over peak NA time.

People have discussed point scaling based on opposition, diminishing returns for all-capping, supply caps for keeps/towers further away from the owner’s respawn, etc..

We as players are better at identifying functional problems than technical solutions to be honest. From our perspective, the problem is both obvious and critical. We await a solution from ANET…

So we will be forced to play with even less people because other servers have less people on? What a rediculous suggestion.

Oh you guys are winning at peak time? Well lets just log off to 5 people left in eternal so you can have 195 people get kicked out.

Better yet the only way this will increase past 5 is if you either leave your guild for another server will obvious population issues so you can queue up to WvW or break up your guild to move to another server, have fun trying to orgnaize this.

You do either one of those options or give up on doing WvW with your current server because I’m sleeping so you shouldnt be allowed to play.

What a joke.

Roland Falantyr.3290:

Davion.8754:

So whats your proposal to change WvWvW that doesnt involve marginalizing my efforts while you are (sleeping/working/whatever) or forces me to look for some european server because I work different hours than you do?

It doesnt matter what ANET wants, the majority of current WvW players will quit once they cant stomp ungeared lowbies due to superior gear, once the majority of players are 80 with the same gear these players will leave in droves after they start losing.

There are a few things on the table suggested by players to reduce the gap in impact that occurs with off-peak NA time over peak NA time.

People have discussed point scaling based on opposition, diminishing returns for all-capping, supply caps for keeps/towers further away from the owner’s respawn, etc..

We as players are better at identifying functional problems than technical solutions to be honest. From our perspective, the problem is both obvious and critical. We await a solution from ANET…

The solution is to deal with it or get people to play while you go to bed, god forbid the game keeps running.

Davion.8754:

So we will be forced to play with even less people because other servers have less people on? What a rediculous suggestion.

Oh you guys are winning at peak time? Well lets just log off to 5 people left in eternal so you can have 195 people get kicked out.

Better yet the only way this will increase past 5 is if you either leave your guild for another server will obvious population issues so you can queue up to WvW or break up your guild to move to another server, have fun trying to orgnaize this.

You do either one of those options or give up on doing WvW with your current server because I’m sleeping so you shouldnt be allowed to play.

What a joke.

Well, what do you suggest? Do you honestly believe the situation as it stands now is good for the long term health of the game? Having one server win every match because of off peak players only, is your version of winning?

Do you not see how the majority of the player base will consider that to be cheap and a joke?

Come on. Be serious. There is obviously a problem. Offer solutions that you think will really work. Telling other servers to recruit more Oceanics isn’t a solution because there aren’t that many to go around.

Kryptorchid.7620:

silvermember.8941:

Casia.4281:

Ascii.9726:

Some system maybe that makes all points on the maps (Camps, Towers, Keeps & SM) worth a % less of there value.

What also might work would be making value change constantly depending on WvW population, for example

at 100% filled instance for all 3 servers (so 100% / 100% wvw population);

Camps – 10 Points
Towers – 20 Points
Keeps – 50 Points
Castle – 70 Points

This would ideally be primetime population and therefor points, during off-peak hours were say one server is 70% (the EU-night capping guilds) and others say 30% each (so 43% total / 100% wvw population);

Camps – 4 Points
Towers – 7 Points
Keeps – 22 Points
Castle – 30 Points
(43% of value rounded up/ down to nearest 1)

This kind of system would reduce the effectivess and mass lead given to higher EU populated US servers whilst still promoting night cappings for additional points (the more EU players you would get on, the more overall % wvw population so more points)

Thoughts?

Oh no, we are about to lose, SM. everyone log off to make our point loss lower.

Variable points based on participation create a system where it can be advantageous to not log in on purpose.

And they still get points so whats your point? And it will be during off peak hours so the strategy of logging of wont even be effective.

Random Player on your server: “Oh kitten! We are getting pushed out of all our maps! Quick, everyone log off so all those capture points tick for 1 point, and then log back in and cap everything in 15min.”

They could do the tick system by an average of player numbers over time, say every hour or two.

Not saying some wouldn’t still try to exploit somehow, because they will. They always do. And a system like this would require massive bot bans, a good afk kicks system, and some bans for players doing goofy stuff like running into walls or simple macros or whatever they do to stay in WvW when not at keyboard.

In other words, Anet would have to pay attention and enforce a proper set of rules. If they can’t do that much, this game is going down regardless of design.

Grim West.3194:

Davion.8754:

So we will be forced to play with even less people because other servers have less people on? What a rediculous suggestion.

Oh you guys are winning at peak time? Well lets just log off to 5 people left in eternal so you can have 195 people get kicked out.

Better yet the only way this will increase past 5 is if you either leave your guild for another server will obvious population issues so you can queue up to WvW or break up your guild to move to another server, have fun trying to orgnaize this.

You do either one of those options or give up on doing WvW with your current server because I’m sleeping so you shouldnt be allowed to play.

What a joke.

Well, what do you suggest? Do you honestly believe the situation as it stands now is good for the long term health of the game? Having one server win every match because of off peak players only, is your version of winning?

Do you not see how the majority of the player base will consider that to be cheap and a joke?

Come on. Be serious. There is obviously a problem. Offer solutions that you think will really work. Telling other servers to recruit more Oceanics isn’t a solution because there aren’t that many to go around.

How bout we wait 3 entire weeks so ANET can begin to gauge population and active trends.

There is no problem, game runs 24/7 and lots of people play while you are sleeping, get yours organized or you will be in trouble.

Davion.8754:

Grim West.3194:

Davion.8754:

So we will be forced to play with even less people because other servers have less people on? What a rediculous suggestion.

Oh you guys are winning at peak time? Well lets just log off to 5 people left in eternal so you can have 195 people get kicked out.

Better yet the only way this will increase past 5 is if you either leave your guild for another server will obvious population issues so you can queue up to WvW or break up your guild to move to another server, have fun trying to orgnaize this.

You do either one of those options or give up on doing WvW with your current server because I’m sleeping so you shouldnt be allowed to play.

What a joke.

Well, what do you suggest? Do you honestly believe the situation as it stands now is good for the long term health of the game? Having one server win every match because of off peak players only, is your version of winning?

Do you not see how the majority of the player base will consider that to be cheap and a joke?

Come on. Be serious. There is obviously a problem. Offer solutions that you think will really work. Telling other servers to recruit more Oceanics isn’t a solution because there aren’t that many to go around.

How bout we wait 3 entire weeks so ANET can begin to gauge population and active trends.

There is no problem, game runs 24/7 and lots of people play while you are sleeping, get yours organized or you will be in trouble.

Lol, you didn’t bother looking at ANet’s own player participation numbers did you? Get back to me when you are informed.

informed about how were not even into the 2nd week yet you guys are playing the blame game with fictional night crews that mysteriously appear from some far away country to foil you and your prime time efforts?

Please continue.

Davion.8754:

informed about how were not even into the 2nd week yet you guys are playing the blame game with fictional night crews that mysteriously appear from some far away country to foil you and your prime time efforts?

Please continue.

You are funny. Are you trying to troll or are you really that ignorant of the facts? Again, go check ANet’s WvW queue and player particiapation numbers. They show the issue as plain as day for all to see. Even the Devs have admitted it is out of whack.

Since you don’t think that is a problen then you won’t mind when nobody plays WvW in a few short weeks.

I think that Ascii’s idea for % of points based on population is a good one. I thought of the same thing. Also, if the issue IS NOT population (as other HoD posters try to claim), then this wouldn’t affect anything, would it?

If something isn’t done soon, then people will give up on WvW altogether. Frankly, I’m already tired of playing Henge, but I don’t think there is any other server that can really challenge us (SBI). It’s maddening when we have people who feel they have to stay awake 24+ hours just to have any sort of chance to counter their massive population.

Rishara.1684:

I think that Ascii’s idea for % of points based on population is a good one. I thought of the same thing. Also, if the issue IS NOT population (as other HoD posters try to claim), then this wouldn’t affect anything, would it?

If something isn’t done soon, then people will give up on WvW altogether. Frankly, I’m already tired of playing Henge, but I don’t think there is any other server that can really challenge us (SBI). It’s maddening when we have people who feel they have to stay awake 24+ hours just to have any sort of chance to counter their massive population.

I think most people are tired of HoD’s off hour population zerg. But since they have one they should be rewarded. Let HoD play a couple of low tier servers while SBI, ET and JQ set up against each other. HoD has worked so hard, they need a vacation. Playing a couple of low tier servers is just what they deserve. Oh and as a bonus, don’t let any HoD transfer to SBI, ET or JQ.

You know I really am banging my head against the wall thinking about how to improve WvW but in all honesty when you have alliances between two competing servers to knock out someone else all I can do is throw my hands in the air

No matter what anyone does to try to make a balanced system. People will find a way to completely ruin it.

It is WvWvW not W+W vs W

I’m completely disgusted by what servers are doing

mangarrage.1062:

You know I really am banging my head against the wall thinking about how to improve WvW but in all honesty when you have alliances between two competing servers to knock out someone else all I can do is throw my hands in the air

No matter what anyone does to try to make a balanced system. People will find a way to completely ruin it.

It is WvWvW not W+W vs W

I’m completely disgusted by what servers are doing

http://www.arena.net/blog/mike-ferguson-on-guild-wars-2-world-vs-world

" Including three forces in world vs. world acts as an excellent balancing factor, preventing one team from growing too powerful and ruining the competitive balance of the game. Two teams can gang up to counter a more dominant third team, a dynamic that simply isn’t possible with only two opposing factions."

Guess it’s time for you to find a different game?

Grim West.3194:

Davion.8754:

informed about how were not even into the 2nd week yet you guys are playing the blame game with fictional night crews that mysteriously appear from some far away country to foil you and your prime time efforts?

Please continue.

You are funny. Are you trying to troll or are you really that ignorant of the facts? Again, go check ANet’s WvW queue and player particiapation numbers. They show the issue as plain as day for all to see. Even the Devs have admitted it is out of whack.

Since you don’t think that is a problen then you won’t mind when nobody plays WvW in a few short weeks.

It shows what they have so far from a tiny sample or almost 2 one week matches and some day matches.

It wont be nobody, it will be 20-30% of what we have now, the majority of players will quit for a myriad of reasons.

uninformed opinions on class balance
night time players ruining the game
lack of pve gear grinds allowing you to bypass playing ability
etc..

Nothing ANET does will ever please these people since they dont even have fun playing the game in the first place, they are looking for a second job.

Please don’t go back to 24 hour matches. I absolutely love the epic feeling of long-term planning and coordination, and it’s still increasing each week. Just look at SBI storing golems for use much later in the match. That is awesome, and just won’t happen in 24 hour matches. I also like the feeling of upgrades and siege purchases being able to last the whole week if you can just keep them since it’s much easier to convince yourself to spend that hard-earned currency.

And can everyone please just stop recommending that we banish our Oceanic friends from playing with us on our servers? There are also people that work different jobs than the normal 9-5 to consider, so let’s just stop these silly recommendations relating to off-peak. Sure HoD has a huge benefit from overnight hours right now, but there must be a better solution to that problem than just telling players to stop playing or telling them they don’t count as much as “real” players count in primetime.

I have no problem if they remove the visibility of the overall score as long as they leave the potential point section. I’m not sure why that would help, but I’m all for it if somehow it would help.

Davion.8754:

Grim West.3194:

Davion.8754:

informed about how were not even into the 2nd week yet you guys are playing the blame game with fictional night crews that mysteriously appear from some far away country to foil you and your prime time efforts?

Please continue.

You are funny. Are you trying to troll or are you really that ignorant of the facts? Again, go check ANet’s WvW queue and player particiapation numbers. They show the issue as plain as day for all to see. Even the Devs have admitted it is out of whack.

Since you don’t think that is a problen then you won’t mind when nobody plays WvW in a few short weeks.

It shows what they have so far from a tiny sample or almost 2 one week matches and some day matches.

It wont be nobody, it will be 20-30% of what we have now, the majority of players will quit for a myriad of reasons.

uninformed opinions on class balance
night time players ruining the game
lack of pve gear grinds allowing you to bypass playing ability
etc..

Nothing ANET does will ever please these people since they dont even have fun playing the game in the first place, they are looking for a second job.

So don’t do anything to improve the game or retain the playerbase. Just let GW2 die a slow painful death. Got it. Thanks for letting us know your opinion of how things should be.

Excuse us while we respectfully disagree.

What they need to do asap is cap out servers from out populating other servers in WvW by decreasing the cap and putting more players in the queue. So between three servers, if one can populate at 100, other at 125 and last at 250 and more on queue. That last server’s population limit should be around 100-150 and not at 250.

Or:
Out manned buff needs to be UPGRADED SEVERELY. Even upto +50% damage/health and more health to keeps if their server is out manned.

Numbers are the only thing that make up WvW, skill and strategy is a very important. It is NOTHING compared to being out manned.

Grim West.3194:

Davion.8754:

Grim West.3194:

Davion.8754:

informed about how were not even into the 2nd week yet you guys are playing the blame game with fictional night crews that mysteriously appear from some far away country to foil you and your prime time efforts?

Please continue.

You are funny. Are you trying to troll or are you really that ignorant of the facts? Again, go check ANet’s WvW queue and player particiapation numbers. They show the issue as plain as day for all to see. Even the Devs have admitted it is out of whack.

Since you don’t think that is a problen then you won’t mind when nobody plays WvW in a few short weeks.

It shows what they have so far from a tiny sample or almost 2 one week matches and some day matches.

It wont be nobody, it will be 20-30% of what we have now, the majority of players will quit for a myriad of reasons.

uninformed opinions on class balance
night time players ruining the game
lack of pve gear grinds allowing you to bypass playing ability
etc..

Nothing ANET does will ever please these people since they dont even have fun playing the game in the first place, they are looking for a second job.

So don’t do anything to improve the game or retain the playerbase. Just let GW2 die a slow painful death. Got it. Thanks for letting us know your opinion of how things should be.

Excuse us while we respectfully disagree.

At this rate, WvW won’t experience a slow, painful death. It will take a matter of 2-3 weeks before most servers stop putting forth any kind of organization/effort.

I have been following this only at the fringes. Some have suggested that the heart of the problem isn’t the score, it is the upgrades. If that is true, rather than putting restrictions on playing times, or changing the scoring, how about tying the upgrade time to population?

I don’t know all of the details, but the upgrade time could be made to overlap the various peak times. If the opponent population increases, your timer goes faster, if it decreases, it slows down. That could be generally adjusted such that the off peak servers cannot upgrade everything, without opposition.

That does not address the orbs, but I thought I would offer it as fodder, in any case.

All of this sounds just like the situation the EU players have with Canadians playing on the French servers, night capping ftl.. bleh ;(

Another way to look at this is also even if the other servers have asian guild to cover the so called off-peak hours of the US players. HOD will still be top dog, cuz the lack of coordination and focus of these other asian guild will still be steamrolled by the aussie guilds from HOD.

GW2 is also played by people from asia and south east asia too. The world doesnt really consists of US and down-under.

Kizzarse.8024:

Another way to look at this is also even if the other servers have asian guild to cover the so called off-peak hours of the US players. HOD will still be top dog, cuz the lack of coordination and focus of these other asian guild will still be steamrolled by the aussie guilds from HOD.

GW2 is also played by people from asia and south east asia too. The world doesnt really consists of US and down-under.

That’s wonderful, everyone should be able to play, really. But the Oceanic playerbase is very small. So when most of them are on only one server that server is going to have a very large insurmountable advantage.

Again, for the uninformed, go look at ANet’s own numbers regarding queues during peak and off peak hours. It is very enlightening.

ET at some periords of the day has absoulutely zero presence in some WvW maps. Nobody there. I’ve logged in in the early mornings before work and our WvW player count is very, very low. Zero queue times on all maps right up until prime time. Even after prime time a couple of the maps are still instant access except during the weekends.

And we can’t recruit enough Oceanics to compete during their hours because there aren’t enough to go around.

The solution is to spread the playerbase out a bit more evenly. The problem is getting people to do that on their own, when most of them have the herd instincts of brainless cattle.

yawn, so much qq from ppl

as a player that have fought against and for hod

WvW has always been a 3 way realm vs realm 24/7 epic persistent on going battle. I am not sure why is night capping even looking downed upon at all, its intended that way and servers that have the organization to have presence 24/7 should be top, and not punished. Having 24/7 coverage is actually THE best strat any server can and should aim for.

I am sure i cannot be the only one that came from other 24/7 pvp games, where 24/7 camping and griefing occurs, really? would anyone complain that you should only be allow to pvp during your own ‘peak hours?’, ‘pls only pvp me and my guild when i can be online of my choosing’

Also, all of this oceanianic/ asian guilds show up off NA peak hours, i have zero queque time during off peak hours on HOD on all borderline maps on any giving day. Yes, you got it, instant queques.

There is NO magical time where NA must log off, i, as an NA player go take a nap after dinner, put on an alarm clock and wake up early or middle of the night to get my fix of wvw in to help out my server (on all the servers i have been in), i should not be punished for doing that. I do this cuz i want to give bigger organized guilds groups shorter queque time and get in their guild groups in easier during peak hours.

I have logged in to wvw at many off peak weird hours, 2am, 4am, 6am, (pst), not once have i logged in and feel, wow i am a zerg, theres no one to fight at all, there are plenty of off peak presence from many other servers. Whether or not they were organized is another matter. There are plenty of times where i actually feel outnumbered playing on off peak hours on Hod.

There are plenty of non casual NA gamers that have np staying up late or waking out early if they are serious about winning. And win or lose, it can still be a great fight. WvW is never meant to be a serious balanced pvp, there are plenty of other ways to get that in gw2 if thats what you prefer 8v8, 5v5 on your peak hour of choosing.

I feel ashamed to be represented by other NA players that feel overnight presence in a 24/7 WvW is somehow bad. If that’s a server’s weakness, that’s what that server should work on first. On a even more serious note, how is any oceanianic / asian guild suppose to want to go to your server if all they see is qq on forums how they do not want to have any overnight presence and that somehow they are worth less since they don’t play on your peak hours. -.-

NA peak hours aren’t some magical hour, there’s at least a 5 hour difference coast to coast, there are plenty of NA player in non NA guilds and international players in NA guilds also, it is sooo narrow minded to think and limit yourself that way.

Complaining about ppl capping when you aren’t around is like complaining other ppl have better gear than you, so you should just not let ppl have gear in wvw? no, you get better gear. Low overnight organization?, get organized, take shifts in your wvw play.

I have a different perspective on this to those from NA. I’m currently in the UK yet the hours I live my life by means I’m gaming mostly during NA time frames. For this reason I choose to play on a NA server, SBI to be exact.

I’v been up against Henge several times now and I really enjoy playing against them, for the most part they are very well coordinated and work well as a server, for that I have nothing but praise for their achievement.

We have always lost to Henge, this is something that has vexed me and the great guild I’m with, we have recently endeavoured to improve ourselves so we can contest and eventually beat Henge. The last few days we have put a great deal of effort into defending the keeps and towers we have taken, in fact we spent several hours working to capture just one tower that was very well defended and it was amazing fun doing so.

Now after all that effort we have lost everything and face a map full of heavily fortified defences. My response, huh they win again, lets wait for the reset.

That should not be the case. This discussion about the pros and cons of night capping is kind of irrelevant. The servers are 24/7 these events are allowed to happen, without this freedom the game would break. However I do object to continually having to play the same sever that has this massive advantage.

The skills they have is not something I/we can counter, yet I’m forced to play them every week. I’m human and would like to win once in a while, specifically if I’ve made the effort.

Please allow us (SBI) to fight against other servers.

Ultimately Henge will defeat themselves, keeps and towers will become grinding, people will become complacent letting the night shift do the capping and the day shift simply play the holding game. Those against them will stop bothering knowing that their efforts will eventually be countered with little effort. Let Henge dig thier own grave and let the rest of us play against one another rather than being stuck with the same rubbish every week.

That way the one week in ten we face the henge night cap we can just go PvE. and Henge can carry on wining and being number 1 without opposition :p

Uruu.3468:

yawn, so much qq from ppl

as a player that have fought against and for hod

WvW has always been a 3 way realm vs realm 24/7 epic persistent on going battle. I am not sure why is night capping even looking downed upon at all, its intended that way and servers that have the organization to have presence 24/7 should be top, and not punished. Having 24/7 coverage is actually THE best strat any server can and should aim for.

Whether something is intended on not is irrelevant. And yes we are QQ because we actually like WuvWuv and want it to be active. Realistically, people are going to soon start giving up once they figure out that on matter what they do all their efforts go in vain later that nite because one side happen to have a lot of oceanic players. The same thing happened in aion.

WvW is a competition between 3 servers if 2 of the servers are not active then it is not working as intended and should be fixed. If all you want to do is win, then yes current WvW is interesting but if you are doing it for fun then really whats the point.

@silvermember
I find your last sentence reversed. If all you want to do is have fun, then yes the current WvW is interesting, but if you are doing it to win, then really what’s the point?

Do you get epic loots at the end?

Do you get your name written on the hearts of your enemies?

Do you get to pillage enemy towns and take their women?

You get fun out of it.

The point is fun.

Yes, but the current situation is not fun. People don’t like working theirkitten off only to wake up in the morning to see it was all for nothing.