Guild Wars 2

I don’t think you can easily break up the desire of people to play in groups – and GW2 is based around social gameplay concepts – so I think the answer would be to make it easier to operate/organise as a small group but give the ability to keep that group small by hiding the group (when desired).

So my proposal would be a ‘junior’ commander pin (a.k.a. Lieutenant pin or a Guild pin).

The way I see it works is as follows:

• People would join a lieutenant squad using /join as usual
• Pin has 3 settings for visibility: 1. Visible to all 2. Visible to squad & commanders 3. Visible to squad only
• Pin has 3 settings for squad membership: 1. Guild only 2. Invite only 3. Open
• When set to “Visible to all” the pin would be very small on the map and a different colour (with a transparency effect). This ensures the Commander icon remains very prominent.
• When you see the pin above the lieutenants head, the pin would be half the size of the commander pin and a different colour – this is also to stop Commander icons being overshadowed during battle but allows guild’s to track the movement of their guild leader (a guild might be flanking while the commander hits head on)
• There is no limit to number of lieutenant squads you can /join (this allows a guild leader to join the squads of all of his juniors and track their location).
• You can only buy a lieutentant pin if you have achieved a certain reasonable ranking once these March wvw rankings are in place (i.e., you can’t be a total noob but you also don’t need to be a 1 man killing machine playing for 15 hours a day) .
• Lieutenant pin only costs 10g because real WvW’rs are poor.

The way I see this being used:

• If someone wanted to flip camps, they type it on map chat, tell people to /join LtCampFlipper – people join LtCampFlipper and follow him around to various camps. They can see his icon above his head and follow him on the map if the group gets separated.
• A guild leader wants his guild mates to find him but not attract too many PUG players to his group (commander pins are PUG magnets) – they set their pin to Guild only and Visible to Squad + Commanders and tell their guild mates to /join GuildLeaderBob. The pin is visible to commanders, so a Commander can ask the guild leader for a favour e.g., “Can you please contest Garrison waypoint for us”.
• A large guild wants to run multiple teams (distraction, ninja, defence, etc) – they get 4 or 5 lieutenant pins and group their players under each lieutenant. The guild leader does a /join on all of his lieutenants and can see where all of his teams are located.
• When maps have no commanders and some random turns their commander pin on, they often get abused for not “being a real commander”. This would allow people to lead in situations where there are no commanders around without the extra expectations/baggage that comes with being a “100g commander”.
• During open field combat, a guild leader wants to outflank a large organised zerg that is about to a hit a commander zerg head on. The guild members need to track the position of the guild leader during battle – they can now follow the lieutenant pin on his head without stealing PUGs from the main zerg.

TL;DR: create variants of commander pins that allow small groups to operate more effectively.

Thundar.3910:

There will always be two camps in WvW, one that thinks a zerg is some mindless mash of players, and another who enjoys strats involving zergs.

Small group play will always and has always had a large role in WvW. Smalls squads can quickly take camps, slow or halt supply lines, and take a tower/keep when permitting.
[…]

At least for me this isn’t the issue with zergs.

I enjoy both types of play in WvW (reason WvW is so fun) but my problem is that for zerging I get so much more rewards than anything else. If you wan’t tons of loot bags you go zerging. Period.

On the other end of the spectrum, if you want to win in WvW there’s things to do like scouting, dolyak sniping, supply running (repairs) and of course dolyak running. The last, which is extremely important, is also extremely boring and gets almost no rewards. Dolyak running is the definition of a thankless job.

It is only because WvW doesn’t reward it appropriately. WvW only rewards zerg wars and the bigger the zergs, the more the rewards!

@ OP question, to fix zerg wars, you don’t need to nerf the current loot or anything but scale up the rewards so that killing a player in a 1v1 – 5v5 fight will have proportionally better loot then tagging someone who dies in zerg vs zerg.

The loot should be more based on damage than it already is. Because a 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 (any small scale) kill has probably involved 20 times more damage and skill-use thakittenerg vs zerg kill. And since it’s only one loot bag there and it took a lot more work, it’s only fair that it should have better loot in it!

Have the new progression divide the bonus given by the number of people that contributed to it.

(If you get a kill, the amount of progress you’d get from that kill is divided by everyone who tagged it)

I am part of a relatively small group (20 players approx) that is making a huge difference on our server, that are A: usually spread across the map (or multiple maps) in groups of one to two players and B: nearly never in the zerg (but part of it when the need arises).

There is a metric kitten-ton to do in WvW apart from running with a zerg: and a lot of those things are a good way to ruin the zergs’ morale.

Zephyrus.9680:

If you wan’t tons of loot bags you go zerging. Period.

Wrong: I have had framerate drops from loots bags from playing defensively. I have spent a good 20 to 25 seconds (admittedly only once or twice) in the past spamming F before I could get back onto my AC (usually I spend about 10s spamming F if I get forced off the AC).

Us defensive players need the zerg (just like we need the PUs and the PU zergs). We need the zerg because we want loot-induced framerate drops and problems re-entering arrow carts. We need the zerg because they take care of enemies in the field before they try our defenses. WvW is a healthy ecosystem: you are complaining because you have only given one part of it a fair chance.

Dolyaks and scouting on the other hand… No loot for you (mostly just repair costs). If anything, that needs to be fixed to make defense more attractive to people trying it out.

Easy: Anti-mass congregation system.

Once a group reaches 20, every additional person in that group results in a 2% reduction in overall stats across the board for everyone in that group. So 40 people? 40% reduction in your stats.

This would affect a…15000 area? Possibly more.

Would allow for a 15 man group to wipe a 40 man with ease.

(Edit) Also, the amount of reduction per person is purely just numbers. Alongside the nerf per individual.

So maybe, instead of every single person, maybe every five? And still keep it at 2.

So at 50 players, everyone has a 10% reduction to globals stats.

Syktek.7912:

Easy: Anti-mass congregation system.

Once a group reaches 20, every additional person in that group results in a 2% reduction in overall stats across the board for everyone in that group. So 40 people? 40% reduction in your stats.

This would affect a…15000 area? Possibly more.

Would allow for a 15 man group to wipe a 40 man with ease.

Nah, i demand 30% reduction, started on 2 ppl. Why i should be owned by 2 ppl? This is definitely not fair. Go solo or go home, who cares about “World vs World” anyway? My shiny solo skill must prevail over stupid groups and zergs!

Rednik.3809:

Syktek.7912:

Easy: Anti-mass congregation system.

Once a group reaches 20, every additional person in that group results in a 2% reduction in overall stats across the board for everyone in that group. So 40 people? 40% reduction in your stats.

This would affect a…15000 area? Possibly more.

Would allow for a 15 man group to wipe a 40 man with ease.

Nah, i demand 30% reduction, started on 2 ppl. Why i should be owned by 2 ppl? This is definitely not fair. Go solo or go home, who cares about “World vs World” anyway? My shiny solo skill must prevail over stupid groups and zergs!

A) You’re an idiot or a troll, but these forums are filled with them.

B) Your contentless complaint can be applied to anything that would prevent Zergs.

C) My idea would encourage people to play in groups smaller than 20, though no larger than 25. This would cause people to roam in groups that would always be around these numbers on up times. These groups would be able to do tactics, etc: Meaning these groups could take castles, keeps, towers and camps in Unison.

The issue comes here: SM and Keep defense where there’s usually 40+ defenders. It would allow for less attackers to be much more effective. So there’d have to be some sort of system that disables the Anti-mass system during sieges of keeps and castles.

-

So in essence: The system is active in all areas, but those surrounding SM and keeps.

D) Since you’re so focused on solo kills: I play a guardian and soon an engineer, I’m not worried about solo kills. I’m worried about small gang warfare, which thrives in WvW and would be the kind of WvW if people weren’t so kitten social.

Again, this is about small gang warfare. Not solo crap. That isn’t fun.

(I have gone to bed, I will not be responding to further desecrations)

I like how the OP used the word “Has become”. That implied some sort of
unwanted transformation. You sir are wrong. Anet wants gw2 to be zerg wars. Accept that and move along or the techno Viking will get you !

Syktek.7912:

Again, this is about small gang warfare. Not solo crap. That isn’t fun.

I have guildzerg, usually 30-40+ ppl size, sometimes 2 or 3 zergs. I like this format, i like big zerg clashes, massive battles, epic assaults. So why i must give up this for some “small gang warfire” nonsence? This is “World vs World” mode, not “gang vs. gang”. If you cannot gather and organize large group – this is your problem.

My opinion is that zerging is not the issue.

The real problem is zergballing, stacking as many people as you can in the smallest space possible. Zergballing causes the following issues.

• negates aoe damage due to aoe limits leading to damage being spreaded out.
• abuses culling
• abuses melee aoe by using the 1 spam
• abuses boon and healing stacking
• generates lag issues that destroys the fun for most people

Culling especially helps the zergball way too much. Culling presents fewer targets for the zergball to instantly murder. It also allows the zergball to concentrate damage on fewer targets at a time, so aoe limits don’t hamper them too much. The effective zergball always charges in quickly so abuse culling as much as they can before the engine updates and limits their damage.

Kill the factors that aid zergballing and zerging is really a non-issue.

I don’t think zerging is much of a problem of the games design, but rather the way alot of player see this as being the way to play the game right now. I don’t think players and leaders are really taking into consideration alot of things like manpower that should be. Its a little hard to explain this. But I think what is needed are tools that can address the issue and make small groups more efficient. One thing I think recently took a step in the right direction with this was the supervisor changes, which I see alot of zergs hang around 4 minutes for buff to go down, when you should be leaving behind 1-2 players to finish the cap.

Increase max AE targets to 25.

Done.

I’m sure it was set to 5 to prevent massive AE PvE farming but there’s no reason to have that limit for PvP and there are good reasons not to have that limit. In DAOC it was feasible for 1 guy to kill 20 people with AE. Blind zerging wasn’t the best way to play as a result.

dzeRnumbrd.6129:

I don’t think you can easily break up the desire of people to play in groups – and GW2 is based around social gameplay concepts – so I think the answer would be to make it easier to operate/organise as a small group but give the ability to keep that group small by hiding the group (when desired).

There is NO support for small multiple grouping forces in GW2. None, zip…. nada! You have a group of 5 people or a zerg. Players and guilds need to have a way to coordinate multiple groups together in medium size forces of 2-5 groups.

The recently changed how crossed orange swords worked for less than 25 people, but you have no way to control the number of people with the C&S system . If you want only 20 people in a force you need to have them in 4 separate groups running together with no in-game system to coordinate.

Either a new grouping/raid system is needed or they need a way to hide the commander pin AND still retain all the functions of a squad to allow for flexible grouping.

I do agree this needs fixing. Isn’t WvW about strategy? Right now you just get hit by massive lagg, and 2 seconds later you’re dead. No idea what the purpose of WvW is in this way.

As a thief player I sort of like zergs. The general zerger is so clueless when it comes to game mechanics, that it isn’t difficult to pick them off one by one from middle of their zerg. xD
Sure, sometimes they revieve faster than I can stomp with haste, but that doesn’t matter. By revieving they can at best delay their ultimate fate: I just down them again and again until they die to downed penalty. :P

Last skill shown: Predator Air Strike. Have it available to Commanders if more than 20 foes are within a certain radius of each other.

Ooo Rah.

First of all, I’m sure many have/will respond that zergs are fine, or zergs are like RL armies, or zergs are what wvw is all about, or zergs are massive battles and we just want to run in small groups, so take that stuff to spvp. Those people have too broad a definition of zerg.

“Bad zerg” is 20-40 people all occupying the same little space, taking advantage of aoe buffs and culling and aoe stealths, without the drawback of being exposed to aoe.

“Stack, Stack, Stack” “Fire fields only”

It’s this (very effective) type of strat that must be fixed in the mechanics. I’ve posted a few times ideas on how to spread out formations.

AOE damage target uncap would help.

There also needs to be a more immediate and recurring drawback to this.

I wish there was a speed debuff “pressed” or something, where if too many allies occupy the same small area, they get a speed debuff. This will force people to spread out, but still be a “massed group of players” just not all on a needle point.

If you get bunched up by the enemy and get a speed debuff, well that’s what being “pressed” is all about.

If you all try to run out of a chokepoint at the same time, you’re going to collide at the door and be slowed. Makes sense to me.

Woaden.9425:

First of all, I’m sure many have/will respond that zergs are fine, or zergs are like RL armies, or zergs are what wvw is all about, or zergs are massive battles and we just want to run in small groups, so take that stuff to spvp. Those people have too broad a definition of zerg.

“Bad zerg” is 20-40 people all occupying the same little space, taking advantage of aoe buffs and culling and aoe stealths, without the drawback of being exposed to aoe.

“Stack, Stack, Stack” “Fire fields only”

It’s this (very effective) type of strat that must be fixed in the mechanics. I’ve posted a few times ideas on how to spread out formations.

AOE damage target uncap would help.

There also needs to be a more immediate and recurring drawback to this.

I wish there was a speed debuff “pressed” or something, where if too many allies occupy the same small area, they get a speed debuff. This will force people to spread out, but still be a “massed group of players” just not all on a needle point.

If you get bunched up by the enemy and get a speed debuff, well that’s what being “pressed” is all about.

If you all try to run out of a chokepoint at the same time, you’re going to collide at the door and be slowed. Makes sense to me.

Better yet, just implement collision detection (in combat zones only to prevent people trolling npcs etc). Collision detection would force people to have to funnel through choke points since their avatars wouldn’t overlap, would also prevent the “stacking” problem.

First they should fix clipping, so we could see incoming zergs.
To me that would solve the issue.

“Fix” can mean a lot of different things. I play WvW because of the zerg, massive fights etc. Yes I often wander with a guild group of 3-6 away from zerg, but overall I like the WvW concept. Technically there needs to be fixes, (culling etc and soon to be massive lag when march updates come) I think the maps need to get larger (pretty sure they will) and more objectives besides camps and towers added to spread people out a bit.
Would love to see the useless random mobs removed and add in more AI with purpose (new objectives related to WvW) Balancing servers with similar populations and coverage would be nice (stuck in T3 at moment where we have no chance (yaks bend) because of numbers and 24/7 coverage issues)
I think adding new objectives would help. Example instead of trebbing from one keep to another, add objectives that you fight over because it is the only spot you can set up a treb if you want to go after a particular keep. These new obejectives/larger maps would spread zergs a bit
Overall I like and want the zerg parts of WvW. If it becomes nothing but roaming 5 packs of players then may as well go to scenario PvP which I have no interest in

The only issue I see with Zergs is loading of the zerg so it can be seen. Take for instance, the infamous portal bomb where an entire Zerg is teleported on top of another Zerg. Everybody is dead by the time anyone can actually see they are under attack.

Other then then load speeds and reducing lag though, I don’t think Zergs should be nerfed. The whole point of WvWvW is grand strategy. The Zerg is essentially an Army. Strategic maneuver of that Army is what leads to victory in the game. WvW is NOT a Game of individual skill. It is a game of teamwork and leadership.

On my own server, we have well known “Great Captains” who people gravitate too and who command with a great deal of skill. These people know how to direct the forces of our world to achieve victory on a grand scale. The Servers who win are not the servers with the most skilled individual players. The servers that win are the ones that are able to organize effective and mobile zergs that know when to defend and when to lash out at the enemy.

Individual play and small groups have their place in WvW. They are essentially “Special Forces” or Commandos. Their role is merely to harass and lay the ground work for the main army. The best servers are the ones able to coordinate multiple Armies (Zergs) with a healthy contingent of Commandos in a grand strategy that ends with an epic capping of the enemy Garrison Keep or Stonemist.

Zergwars won’t be fixed, it is here to stay until the population drops so low that zergwars aren’t possible.

There’s nothing “wrong” with zergs in the sense that we need to prevent them.

The problem is they are all reward and no penalty. There’s not enough reason NOT to zerg.

I am fine with people zerging, rather have them out zerging then not be there at all. Zergs are the welcoming, first point of contact with wvw/rvr for many people and while it is easy for us long time players to dismiss this, I think it is an important aspect of the game and it’s long term success.

Sure I think this game provides a few to many tools for zergs, but I think if the new progression system works on a basis that points are a set amount per kill, split with everyone involved in the kill, then assuming the rewards are worth getting, I think you will see more roaming groups and smaller zergs out there.

That’s a lot of assumptions of course

It’s not a question of the number of people on the map. There should be large battles between large forces.

The “zerging” issue is that the game actively encourages and better rewards getting every avaliable player on your server in one giant ball, and simply rolling from objective to objective.

Travel time and lack of interim obstacles have a lot to do with it, but also there’s little to no utility in defense unless the enemy zerg is actively breaking down your doors.

The scoreboard is half the problem, as the scoreboard doesn’t really care how upgraded your point was, or how long you’ve held it, only who owns what at every timer interval.

This encourages flipping objectives you have no ability or intent to defend just to tick the timer, and the fact that upgrades are 100% risk free as long as you can move the yak to the point makes defending the point itself a waste of time until the rolling ball of hate is breaking down your door.

Yaks are important, and people have learned to treat them as important, but there’s no need to defend a keep or tower itself during the upgrade process, and no benefit score-wise for holding a long-held point in stead of rolling out the entire map to go quick-cap two more.

In addition, walls and siege simply don’t have enough HP to create any semblance of a protracted fight, and the placement of built-in defenses makes them largely useless for their intended purpose of helping to held off a large attacking force that would otherwise overwhelm the defenders.

What I’d do:

• Disallow players to pick up supply from camps., this makes supply caravans much more important.
• 100% chance to loot avaliable supply from enemy Yaks. Again, Yaks = fulcrum. Flipping a supply camp just to loot it becomes less useful than actively intercepting enemy supplies, and defending camps becomes much more important. In addition, due to the limited amount of supply each Yak can carry, it becomes a much more efficient strategy to commission smaller yak hunting groups at multiple locations than to ball everyone on the map in to the main force.
• Players drop supply when killed. Any ally or enemy can loot this supply if they have room. This makes stopping siege deployments actually plausible, and creates a much more interesting supply metagame.
• Empty supply camps when they flip. Again, discourages flipping and encourages defending.
• Move the upgrade NPCs to the outside of the walls. Creates opportunities for small operators to more effectively cripple enemy fortifications, and encourages players to defend fortificstions during upgrades. Overall I believe this would help spread out player population a bit without affecting the ability to field a single strong mainforce.
• Double the HP of walls, gates, and siege equipment. Double their damage to players. Halve the damage players deal with weapons to siege. Quarter the damage players deal with weapons to gates. All of the above encourages using siege to counter siege and makes siege more viable as a force multiplier while discouraging simply overrunning it with a small group of players.
• Remove all siege AoE caps. Again, see above.
• Add a damage reducing and pulsing condition cleansing buff to any player operating siege. This makes fort and tower defenses much more viable and encourages players to man siege rather than abandon it at the sight of the first enemy.
• Increase the point value of objectives based on their upgrade status. A fully upgraded point should be worth twice as much as a fresh one. This greatly encourages defending assets.
• Increase the point value of objectives by one for each hour they are held. Again, this encourages defense, and discourages quick-flips.

PopeUrban.2578:

• Disallow players to pick up supply from camps., this makes supply caravans much more important.
• 100% chance to loot avaliable supply from enemy Yaks. Again, Yaks = fulcrum. Flipping a supply camp just to loot it becomes less useful than actively intercepting enemy supplies, and defending camps becomes much more important. In addition, due to the limited amount of supply each Yak can carry, it becomes a much more efficient strategy to commission smaller yak hunting groups at multiple locations than to ball everyone on the map in to the main force.
• Players drop supply when killed. Any ally or enemy can loot this supply if they have room. This makes stopping siege deployments actually plausible, and creates a much more interesting supply metagame.
• Empty supply camps when they flip. Again, discourages flipping and encourages defending.

2 thieves can kill yak with ANY number of defenders. So <4 thieves>*<supply camp number on map>=ideal supply starvation for all. Also, more players for yak/camp guard = more players doing thankless job. I didn’t see how spending all time on WvW without kills, loot, experience/karma/money from events can be “interesting metagame”. Who will compensate them lost money and fun, you?

PopeUrban.2578:

• Move the upgrade NPCs to the outside of the walls. Creates opportunities for small operators to more effectively cripple enemy fortifications, and encourages players to defend fortificstions during upgrades. Overall I believe this would help spread out player population a bit without affecting the ability to field a single strong mainforce.

I.e. again “let’s force players guarding NPC for zero reward”.

PopeUrban.2578:

• Double the HP of walls, gates, and siege equipment. Double their damage to players. Halve the damage players deal with weapons to siege. Quarter the damage players deal with weapons to gates. All of the above encourages using siege to counter siege and makes siege more viable as a force multiplier while discouraging simply overrunning it with a small group of players.
• Remove all siege AoE caps. Again, see above.
• Add a damage reducing and pulsing condition cleansing buff to any player operating siege. This makes fort and tower defenses much more viable and encourages players to man siege rather than abandon it at the sight of the first enemy.
• Increase the point value of objectives based on their upgrade status. A fully upgraded point should be worth twice as much as a fresh one. This greatly encourages defending assets.
• Increase the point value of objectives by one for each hour they are held. Again, this encourages defense, and discourages quick-flips.

So instead of open field battles everyone will be forced into defending, all objectives will be littered with doubledamage-siege (with protected operators and tons of HP), and assaults must be performed under extreme supply starvation for assault siege.

Here’s how I imagine wvw SHOULD be like

One or two large armies. This will be your main army. They will be comprised mainly of support and heavy AOE classes. They cannot respond to every threat however, and that’s where scouting groups come in.

Scouting groups are your havoc squads, they contain mainly high mobility classes that can do small number of targets damage well. These groups will roam around capping supply camps, sentries, tapping enemy towers and keeps to contest them and baffle the enemy zerg, and in general causing havoc in coordination with allied zerg(s) and scouting the enemy zergs. At no point in time would it be feasible for them to fight these zergs as they would be horribly crushed, but they have their hypermobility to make up for this. They would work to have stragglers leave and pick them off, which thins the zerg’s numbers. Additionally, they will be the “delay” response team. If a zerg attacks a structure, they will be the first to defend and report, buying time and waiting for their allies to arrive.

For the most part, coordinated guild play is like this, so yes, I’m fine with how wvw is at the moment. I don’t welcome hard nerfs to large congregations of players.

I really think there’s nothing wrong with people fighting in huge groups, if culling can be fixed it will be even more amazing for alot of players..

I’ve been doing small WvW groups in mmos for a long time and the #1 problem facing us is kinda obviously culling, waiting for the fix is like waiting for christmas, it’s like waiting for guild wars 3, I believe alot of players of my style will come back to the game or be happier with it.

Culling is so bad sometimes on my tier it gets pretty stressful, you find a big group you want to pick apart bait and stretch and you start analyzing them and while youre looking at them 5-10 people appear pretty much on top of you and now you’re getting chain immobilized and it’s stressful, still though have alot of success and great fights some nights, it’s just hard when everyone is feeling like we wiped due to culling.

I think once culling is worked out people can really start to explore the art of exploiting zergs, especially due to the fact that we now get hotspots for only 25+ in combat(this allows us to drag sections of people to semi remote areas and lock a fight in without a nearby zerg going to our cool fight like bees to honey) and people not being in a huge party(people aren’t as easily coordinated in zergs in gw2).

Personally I think if the culling fix is true guerilla warfare will grow due to it being more fun consistent and controlled, I believe alot of players will come back/get into it, oh yea 10 cap on aoe would be interesting too but at the same time i’d like to see single target assisting become more rewarded somehow.. but whatever… culling fix, I dream of you

When a developer makes a MMO with massive PvP elements in it they normally encounter the same problem, zerging. This is in a way human nature, to blob up for a better chance of survival, but it is also a design flaw.

By having static objects that are the highest rewarding things on the map forces people into zerging. They go to where the profit are.
And when the static objects also gives the highest rewards on taking them it also encourage “flipping” ie you get a better reward losing one to reclaim it later.

So a very quick change into some of the “point” mechanic in WWW could make a huge change in how players zerg up.

1. Keep all the things that are now with keeps and supply camps etc. but take away that they give Victory Point ticks or any reward on taking them, and take away the NPC´s.
Instead have it so they give a BIG bonus reward to the owning player when they are making a kill in that area. Something in the line of 500% xp/karma/gold bonus on enemy kills ikittenone.

The rewards should NEVER be stat bonuses, but drop, xp, karma, gold and drop bonuses.

add a zone of control to every static object that a server can cap, that will be visibly on the map/radar.

2. make it so when ever a server kills a player from the other server they give their server a victory point, as keeps and towers do today.

3. put back orbs of power.
When a server has its own orb they get victory point on every tick, if they own another servers orb they get additional victory points every tick, NO BONUSES TO STATS.
Important! When a player has the enemies or of power he should always be “in combat” running abit slower then a player not in combat.
It should also apply poison, forcing a solo player to drop it once in a while and a larger group of players to change the orb carrier.

What will these “small” changes do?
It will make it so the most profitable way to earn anything in WWW is PvP.
It will create more PvP, it will still encourage zerging but not to the same extent as static objects that gives the biggest rewards.
It encourage players to defend its servers static objects rather then to let them fall and retake them for a higher reward, and creates a more of proper invasion force to claim new land to get higher rewards.
It gives players a “reward” reason to roam in smaller groups or solo more, you can kill enemy players and help your server get victory points.
And as a side note, this will in a way kill night capping, no players on line equals no players to kill for victory points, you can how ever still ninja another servers Orb of power, so night capping is not useless.

The only problem with this system is that it in someway encourage defending by not fighting, ie if a server is very much behind in victory points, and they dont have an organized group fighting they actually lose more points in entering the PvP zone and dying leaving the other server with no players to kill.
In GW2 this will not be much of a problem since we have a three way war, and the tiers are some what balanced now.

So what does the community think?
Would you like these changes, do you think they will make a posetive change in how we WWW today?
Will it affect zerging at all?

WvW is a large scale week long war correct?
Wars have factions (servers) correct?
Factions have armies (zergs) correct?
Armies have battles correct?
These battles are usually decided by primarily army size and secondarily by tactics correct?

WvW is working as intended.

You don’t want large scale war? Swallow your pride and move to a tier that is lower than 4. There is room for small group tactics and solo roaming there. Tier 7 needs men. Tier 8 is desperate for balance. Tier 6 is stable and has zergs on prime time. Tier 5 has coverage gaps and room for small man guilds.

This isn’t a development issue. Anet developed WvW to be precisely what it is, aside from culling issues. This is a community issue. The worst decision Anet made was not restricting server xfers to be only from high to low pop servers and by not monitoring the server immigration.

Zergs are not the problem, its the culling that makes zergs hard to fight each other. Small zergs are possible at fighting bigger zergs. War Machine and Votf proves that it’s possible. I have been fights that I am clearly outnumbered, and even had the enemy culling, but STILL manage to wipe them. Lag, and fps drops the same…get a computer that does not run on a potatoe. xP

Now that the claimer has an even more powerful buff, it has made small ops even more important to flip camps and roam in the enemy territory to catch stragglers while the main army (your zerg) to get some towers. The feeling of being a small team in hostile territory that any moment a huge zerg could trample you is very exciting. If you do not like that, then WvW is not for you.

You stop zergs in WvW, you stop WvW. I am ok if the developers decide to change zerg aspects, but it will change the game dramatically if they really restrain zergs from happening at all.

there’s nothing wrong, some zergs are dumb and mindless, some use tactics. Just because 30 people run as a group doesn’t mean its a bad thing. Are there more proficient uses of manpower? Sure, sometimes but not always.
WvW is not spvp, stop thinking you are going to get ‘fair’ or ‘balanced’ fights. It’s a war sometimes small forces hold out against large forces, sometimes large forces steam roll small ones. Get over it and move on.

The problem isnt zergs.
Its that there is only one tactic. (Having a bigger zerg)
The zerg can take and defend everything without the need to reduce in numbers or loosing people.
If ikittenone, both servers have equal numbers(capped). One server split up into 2 zergs instead of one the server with only one (the biggest) always wins..

ANET before released said we have lots of objectives to take, small groups can contribute too. You need to split up to take and hold objectives. So one big zerg wasnt their plan.

So why people zerg:
- its at the moment the best tactic
- its savest
- its most rewarded (dont know about that… having a good guild group(20-30) killing smaller zergs(40-60) is more rewarding
- its easiest (dont need to be grouped, know about tactic, having skill, be in TS or whatever.. Just run to the commander tag and stick with him)

So zergs dont need to be removed
Just zerging shouldnt be the best/only tactic anymore.
And reward should be equal to doing stuff solo or in smaller groups
Smaller groups/solo players have to be able to avoid the zerg
And getting a commander tag (if there less then 4) should be easier -> free for that zone untill you log. So none guilded players and players from guild that arent doing a guild group can choose what commander to follow.

I also think it’s a problem that defense credit requires kills or repair.

If you are alone in a tower and 20 people roll up, you’re not going to kill anyone (unless you’re a thief…) and often the tower is out of supply so you get 1 round of repair (bronze medal) and that’s it. It might take them 10 minutes to bash down the door (particularly if you’re on a superior arrow cart and can keep them from using rams) and you won’t get anything for any of it. Really, damage to siege engines should count more than killing players when it comes to defense but right now it’s not worth any event credit.

Supply camps are worse because the combined force of all guards and the supervisor amounts to the power of 1 or 2 players. So skill and power being equal, 3 defenders + all guards are likely to lose against 6 attackers. 6 defenders are likely to lose against 9 attackers. With no hard defenses, supply camps basically suck to try and defend because there is nothing standing between you and a zergball that rolls in. (At least in a tower you can slow them down.)

Bottom line, I think, is that defense isn’t as rewarding as it should be. “Karma trains” are zergballs, not defenses. I can gain 4 levels in a sitting with a roaming zergball or I can gain <1 level in the same period of time playing scout/defense. Also lots more loot and therefore money in the zergball.

Incidentally, the Planetside solution to this problem was this:

• From event start to event end, “unique kills” are tracked. Each player is 1 unique kill (so killing the same guy 10 times still only counts once).
• When the event is over (one way or another), everyone gets credit based on the number of unique kills in the area. I think it was something like 50 unique kills for full credit, but full credit was a big reward.

This way, empty bases were easy to flip but also not worth nearly the same reward as capturing a fully defended base.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/WvW-improvement-2

Zerging will always be part of any wvw game. But in GW2 it gives too much right now.

Three things I would like fixed are:
1. Fix boons, they go to group only! This will remove the annoying random passerby having one of your team lose speed AND will balance out organized groups vs big blobs a little.

2. Make any siege take the same amount of time. Maybe from 15 ppl, there is a damage cap on doors. So the zerg doesn’t melt that T3 keep in seconds!

3. Remove AoE damage caps. There should be some punishment for standing on the same spot with a huge group! (I realize there is a risk that the blob will then just aoe the crap out of the smaller group as well, but usually zergs are less organized and aware, it will introduce some tactics).

All of these are obviously subject to first having culling and skill lag fixed!

Make the suplies on the keep-castles to decay (1 suply loss every 60 sec) (guards need to eat!)
Forcing the ppl to defend more the dolyaks or attack theirs – attrition war (theres still a DR on the dolyaks ?)
And create more dynamic events , such as a family of hylek need some protection to reach their destiny vs wolfs-mermaid or wild animals , and as a gratitude they give + 15-20 WvWvW points to ur server or 1 hylek honor badge .
(10-15 badges and u can do 1 free upgrade to 1 stracture)

You cannot really get rid or “fix” zerging because it can and should be a valuable tactic, even though the game engine cannot handle mass zerging 30-40+ its still a powerful option.

What I think is needed is more ways to slow down and counter these zergs, such as traps and trip wires that can be built in the environment that have no aoe limit with cripple/snare debuffs that can not be cleansed for there durations.

Remove the caps on all aoe damage abilities.

Increase the HP of all towers,forts,camps,etc to make them harder to take, but add a decay effect if left undefended, if left undefended for too long even small parties can easily take objective.

I think zergs are fine, culling however is not. My biggest gripe is how you can siege from keep to keep. Being able to knock down the wall to another keep from the safety of your keep is ridiculous. Either reduce the range of trebs, or ( better solution) increase map size and spread the keeps out more. I understand increasing map size is EXTREMELY unlikely.

Perhaps giving trebs a “debuff” when put up inside keep walls that reduces their damage to other keeps.

I also think the badges of honor would be better aquired instead of a “drop” simply given as a karma like currency. This would eliminate bag space, as well as forgetting to pickup the bags.

I also agree that the AOE cap should be removed.

Once downed and stuck, you should be dead.

I would fix it by adding PVE and TPVP AND SPVP. Oh wait

Accept it for what it is.

I think the easiest way to fix it is to deincentivize it. Make it so that the more people hit someone the less goodies they get and i bet less people will be interested in zerging.

Functioning as intended.

Transfer to a lower tier. We split all the time to outmanoeuvre enemy zergs.

People in higher tiers who complain there’s too many people make my eyes roll.

Add commander tags to guilds which can only be seen by guild mates. Make this something you can unlock down the wvw line with influence and add the ability to pop guild commander tags via guild role permissions while limiting the number of active guild tags to one per fifty members. Any one in a role with commander tag permissions could then pop a commander tag visible only to their guild and each guild could only have a maximum of ten tags active at any one time. I think that would help on a number of levels but would definitely allow groups to coordinate in smaller segments without the risk of drawing unwanted attention of those that just look to follow a public commander tag.

I always thought zerg wars was the point of WvWvW? With siege and large armies? Isn’t there one group tournament PvP already for those who want it?

Monsoon.2589:

Aeonblade.8709:

I always thought zerg wars was the point of WvWvW? With siege and large armies? Isn’t there one group tournament PvP already for those who want it?

I am fine with zergs if I am able to respond to them or react or if I can use my abilities. At the moment a EB lord room attack by more than one zerg means:

- 7 seconds instant cast if they even fire at all while running around like a chicken with its head cut off
- no heals working
- invisible players due to culling
- Fps going down the drain even with good machine/card due to engine/client issues
- downed abilities not working/firing whatsoever
- golems right on top of you not showing due to engine
- massive damage killing you with no enemies around then you die and enemies appear

…just a short list of issues

The zergs are not the real problem…it is not being able to see or do anything that is the problem. Most of the time I get killed without being able to fire any abilities due to 30 to 50 players throwing all sorts of combos and multiple clones and once dead I can t use any ability as well and get instant death not even 1 second after being downed due to lag. This also bugs escape abilities rendering them useless

The 5-billion circles of AoE that get concentrated on the center of those fights is ridiculous as well…Even fully specced as a tank you cant even come close to getting inside those circles and getting back out alive.

Taldek.6105:

Add commander tags to guilds which can only be seen by guild mates. Make this something you can unlock down the wvw line with influence and add the ability to pop guild commander tags via guild role permissions while limiting the number of active guild tags to one per fifty members. Any one in a role with commander tag permissions could then pop a commander tag visible only to their guild and each guild could only have a maximum of ten tags active at any one time. I think that would help on a number of levels but would definitely allow groups to coordinate in smaller segments without the risk of drawing unwanted attention of those that just look to follow a public commander tag.

Something similar to this has been suggested countless times since release. It’s very difficult for guilds to group and coordinate over 5 people. The commander and squad system just doesn’t have enough functionality for what’s needed by guilds and players in the game.

The C&S system is surprisingly the least effective system for grouping I’ve seen in the last 5 years playing MMO’s.

zerg i think is fine..i love it its like a big scale battle..like DAOC
the problems IMO in GW2 is combo2 field stack..stack..stack..thats hurting the play style..
if you remember early battle in GW2 its more challenging than now..
for example when we busting gate door then all of sudden i died 1-2 sec of train STACK combo ZERG.!!!…what the **** …..cant see nothing only effects of aoe all around…..
so imho please ANet dissable combo/stacking in WvWvW ( :P ) so we fight spread out all around in open battle…not stacking zergball…!!

Collision detection and friendly fire.