Guild Wars 2

Quote from the review:
“There’s also a sprawling, beautiful new world-versus-world battleground called the Desert Borderlands that grants powerful bonuses for holding keeps, but two weeks on, there were never enough people playing it for me to truly see it in action. "

Even IGN recognizes the outdated WvW server system that leaves us with 3 empty copies of the new map (which we all agree is beautiful).

I think it’s about time Anet changes the server system or merge servers, something the community has been asking for years. There is just not enough people playing that mode to fill up half the 24 copies of this huge map.

Xillllix.3485:

Quote from the review:
“There’s also a sprawling, beautiful new world-versus-world battleground called the Desert Borderlands that grants powerful bonuses for holding keeps, but two weeks on, there were never enough people playing it for me to truly see it in action. "

Even IGN recognizes the outdated WvW server system that leaves us with 3 empty copies of the new map (which we all agree is beautiful).

I see nothing in that IGN quote about the server system, only about lack of players. Come on. There’s a lot of problems regarding WvW right now and they need good discussion, not weird logic and distracting rhetoric.

there are enough people to fill up these maps, people just dont wanna play the horrible layout of the map.

Chaba.5410:

Xillllix.3485:

Quote from the review:
“There’s also a sprawling, beautiful new world-versus-world battleground called the Desert Borderlands that grants powerful bonuses for holding keeps, but two weeks on, there were never enough people playing it for me to truly see it in action. "

Even IGN recognizes the outdated WvW server system that leaves us with 3 empty copies of the new map (which we all agree is beautiful).

I see nothing in that IGN quote about the server system, only about lack of players. Come on. There’s a lot of problems regarding WvW right now and they need good discussion, not weird logic.

The lack of players is due in great part to the server system, the old Alpine maps were also empty before the update. Even if they did added waypoint to the new map there is not enough players around to fill them.

Xillllix.3485:

Chaba.5410:

Xillllix.3485:

Quote from the review:
“There’s also a sprawling, beautiful new world-versus-world battleground called the Desert Borderlands that grants powerful bonuses for holding keeps, but two weeks on, there were never enough people playing it for me to truly see it in action. "

Even IGN recognizes the outdated WvW server system that leaves us with 3 empty copies of the new map (which we all agree is beautiful).

I see nothing in that IGN quote about the server system, only about lack of players. Come on. There’s a lot of problems regarding WvW right now and they need good discussion, not weird logic.

The lack of players is due in great part to the server system, the old Alpine maps were also empty before the update. Even if they did added waypoint to the new map there is not enough players around to fill them.

Huh?

Are you trying to say the lack of players is because there are too many servers, or because there are 4 maps in a match? Those aren’t the same thing.

Xillllix.3485:

Chaba.5410:

Xillllix.3485:

Quote from the review:
“There’s also a sprawling, beautiful new world-versus-world battleground called the Desert Borderlands that grants powerful bonuses for holding keeps, but two weeks on, there were never enough people playing it for me to truly see it in action. "

Even IGN recognizes the outdated WvW server system that leaves us with 3 empty copies of the new map (which we all agree is beautiful).

I see nothing in that IGN quote about the server system, only about lack of players. Come on. There’s a lot of problems regarding WvW right now and they need good discussion, not weird logic.

The lack of players is due in great part to the server system, the old Alpine maps were also empty before the update. Even if they did added waypoint to the new map there is not enough players around to fill them.

I spent 90% of my WvW time on the alpine map, usually on my bronze league account. It was never empty.
Sometimes it was hard to get players off of the wall after killing them a few times and they would only respond with 6+ players if I was solo, 10+ if I had 1 or 2 with me, etc.

In those situations I would take advantage of the well thought out map and mechanics. I would keep camps flipped to prevent upgrades, or I might set up a treb in a tower to force them out of the keep.
Either way there was always someone to fight and people were motivated to come and defend their structures. Not like now.

The old Alpine map was empty right before HoT because everyone was waiting for HoT and getting kind of sick of stale match-up and population imbalances. If the new map alone could have fixed either one of those underlying issues than maybe this wouldn’t be such a big deal right now but it didn’t and some would say it only exacerbated them so now we wait to see what they do next. ANET says they couldn’t fit all their WvW updates into the xpac so it is very likely some of those changes will actually impact how the Desert borderland plays for the better. Too bad they couldn’t have waited to add it if that was the case.

What I don’t like seeing right now are so many threads clamoring for server mergers or mega-server like solutions. Don’t overreact with bad ideas just because everything is a little messy right now. Granted, whatever option ANET is currently working on (that we will not see for awhile yet) will likely be addressing the problems the community was expressing over the WvW maps about a year ago so it might need some tweaks but I would hate for them to kill what is left of the world pride community thinking that is the magic bullet to save the game mode.

In the past they have seemed to understand the importance of permanence and community ties and yet also did a lot of contrary weird stuff for player convenience like free world transfers for the first 6 months which makes me think some of the folks at ANET who “get” what makes WvW successful are not the same ones in control of the purse strings or have to bow the broader vision. Like Colin for instance who is probably too far removed from the development side of things anymore but a true old school DAoC’er at heart.

They know how to build worlds that encourage interconnection and yet somehow Guild Wars fails in this which leads to me wonder if it us the modern players who don’t fit the mold of a true online community anymore. As a casual player I have to admit to liking the accessibility of GW2 while at the same time waxing nostalgic over past games where you actually had to rely on others to get things done and caring if others were succeeding. Sheesh, I must be getting old.

The new map sucks. That’s the reason there arent alot players on them. This should be clear for most people.

Timelord.8190:

The new map sucks. That’s the reason there arent alot players on them. This should be clear for most people.

I completely disagree with that. The new map is fine minus a lack of waypoints. It needs waypoints in towers as soon as you cap them.

The problems are core WvW problems that have been there WAY before the release of HoT.

Xillllix.3485:

The lack of players is due in great part to the server system, the old Alpine maps were also empty before the update. Even if they did added waypoint to the new map there is not enough players around to fill them.

Excuse me whaaaaaaat ?

I had plenty of players to fight in the old borders, even in the last week before HoT !

And im in T9 EU

I fought like…3-4 guys TOTAL in the new borders (yeah, total…as in, since HoT came out)

The server system is not the problem here !
Its the completly automated upgrades and no WP’s in the side keeps that are hurting us the most ! Both of which are really easy to fix (hell, just slapping an “Upgrade” button on the quartermasters that a player has to press for the tower/keep/camp to upgrade would be enough)

Xillllix.3485:

Timelord.8190:

The new map sucks. That’s the reason there arent alot players on them. This should be clear for most people.

I completely disagree with that. The new map is fine minus a lack of waypoints. It needs waypoints in towers as soon as you cap them.

The problems are core WvW problems that have been there WAY before the release of HoT.

If the new map was any good we would go there wouldn’t we? You know what i see? There are almost never anyone going there. The amount of stupid gimmicks on that map is to much. And all the obstacles around the map is annoying to deal with. I don’t want to run a marathon each time before i’m going to battle. A good map for me would evolve more around character skills rather than use of silly gimmicks and siege use.

Xillllix.3485:

Timelord.8190:

The new map sucks. That’s the reason there arent alot players on them. This should be clear for most people.

I completely disagree with that. The new map is fine minus a lack of waypoints. It needs waypoints in towers as soon as you cap them.

The problems are core WvW problems that have been there WAY before the release of HoT.

WP’s in the towers as soon as you cap them!? That suggestion is just….. horrible.

Having WP’s in the keeps that players had to spend hours building made them valuable. The majority of the fights on the Alpine bl revolved around attacking and defending those wp’s. Even taking camps and sniping dolyaks was an indirect way of attacking those wp’s because you were starving the keeps supply and preventing them from being built or making the keeps a little more vulnerable by denying them supply for siege and repairs.

By removing the WP’s entirely or just handing them to the server as soon as they flip a structure they remove their value , and they remove the motivation to attack or defend them.

PariahX.6970:

They know how to build worlds that encourage interconnection and yet somehow Guild Wars fails in this which leads to me wonder if it us the modern players who don’t fit the mold of a true online community anymore.

On the contrary, everything they’ve done has been “anti” world. For starters, they never gave Worlds a theme and backstory. At least we had “our place” in Tyria to call home. Then the Mega Server took that all away and is a huge anti world design. Not only do we not have a place to call home in game, we now have no way to communicate amongst ourselves. Having transfer cost is mostly anti world. Having population locks are anti world. Promoting guilds over Worlds by having WvW buffs gated to large guilds only is anti world.

So no, I don’t think they have a clue how to make Worlds meaningful or how to build world communities. Most of what makes WvW come alive is from the players themselves using third party solutions.

Mitz.5741:

Xillllix.3485:

The lack of players is due in great part to the server system, the old Alpine maps were also empty before the update. Even if they did added waypoint to the new map there is not enough players around to fill them.

Excuse me whaaaaaaat ?

I had plenty of players to fight in the old borders, even in the last week before HoT !

And im in T9 EU

I fought like…3-4 guys TOTAL in the new borders (yeah, total…as in, since HoT came out)

The server system is not the problem here !
Its the completly automated upgrades and no WP’s in the side keeps that are hurting us the most ! Both of which are really easy to fix (hell, just slapping an “Upgrade” button on the quartermasters that a player has to press for the tower/keep/camp to upgrade would be enough)

Thats a lie. I say so because on t1, even months before HoT, the BL were empty 90% of the time on the weekdays aside from the random zergblob ktrain from whichever server was bored. The problem is theres to many servers, plain and simple. There should be 3 tiers max.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Mitz.5741:

Xillllix.3485:

The lack of players is due in great part to the server system, the old Alpine maps were also empty before the update. Even if they did added waypoint to the new map there is not enough players around to fill them.

Excuse me whaaaaaaat ?

I had plenty of players to fight in the old borders, even in the last week before HoT !

And im in T9 EU

I fought like…3-4 guys TOTAL in the new borders (yeah, total…as in, since HoT came out)

The server system is not the problem here !
Its the completly automated upgrades and no WP’s in the side keeps that are hurting us the most ! Both of which are really easy to fix (hell, just slapping an “Upgrade” button on the quartermasters that a player has to press for the tower/keep/camp to upgrade would be enough)

Thats a lie. I say so because on t1, even months before HoT, the BL were empty 90% of the time on the weekdays aside from the random zergblob ktrain from whichever server was bored. The problem is theres to many servers, plain and simple.

How can you say that’s a lie when you weren’t with him? Hell you weren’t even in the same tier.

Xillllix.3485:

Quote from the review:
“There’s also a sprawling, beautiful new world-versus-world battleground called the Desert Borderlands that grants powerful bonuses for holding keeps, but two weeks on, there were never enough people playing it for me to truly see it in action. "

Even IGN recognizes the outdated WvW server system that leaves us with 3 empty copies of the new map (which we all agree is beautiful).

I think it’s about time Anet changes the server system or merge servers, something the community has been asking for years. There is just not enough people playing that mode to fill up half the 24 copies of this huge map.

Yes the new maps are incredibly empty, and yes they are Anet’s way of trolling players as to what their guild halls could have looked like with the new keeps, but if you want a positive review on IGN you need to pay them for it.

Zanther Deathbringer.4762:

Mitz.5741:

Xillllix.3485:

The lack of players is due in great part to the server system, the old Alpine maps were also empty before the update. Even if they did added waypoint to the new map there is not enough players around to fill them.

Excuse me whaaaaaaat ?

I had plenty of players to fight in the old borders, even in the last week before HoT !

And im in T9 EU

I fought like…3-4 guys TOTAL in the new borders (yeah, total…as in, since HoT came out)

The server system is not the problem here !
Its the completly automated upgrades and no WP’s in the side keeps that are hurting us the most ! Both of which are really easy to fix (hell, just slapping an “Upgrade” button on the quartermasters that a player has to press for the tower/keep/camp to upgrade would be enough)

Thats a lie. I say so because on t1, even months before HoT, the BL were empty 90% of the time on the weekdays aside from the random zergblob ktrain from whichever server was bored. The problem is theres to many servers, plain and simple. There should be 3 tiers max.

Unless you are on the top tier server in EU that is falling like a rock due to imploding it self due to issues on the server and there for are empty, then the lie is on you. There is players on every top tier server, and was before the expansion. Not 24/7, but for sure at least my server had constant fights, small or blobby, to be found on at least one of the maps several times an hour. The people that was there then, are still around, most packed up in EB others waiting for response from Anet what will be done but can not be kitten d to join the new border due to the bad flow in it and are waiting in pve, and then there are those that left and waiting outside of the game playing other games hoping anet will fix it soon, and about as many that left for good. And that is the reason why you have empty borders at this very point.

The longer we wait, the worse the situation will get, because there is so much waiting we can do and especially for those that are playing gw2 for wvw, and do not fancy the pve part of the game. In the end there has to be a word about it, or people will just drop off and then it will really be as empty in the way you describe..

The problem I’ve come across is that people are fighting the maps as much as they are fighting other servers. Not sure I explained that well enough. WvW should be about toons vs toons, not toons vs environment – that would be pve-ish. Love the idea of new maps, but the focus of wvw should be… wvw, right?

2 weeks in T1 EU i saw a queue on borders only one time,it was the EB zerg jumping there to take a look….the queue lasted 10 minutes.
After that never saw a queue again on borders on my server.

Every day 80 man queue in EB , and not a single soul on borders.
Guild raids jumping in EB crying there is no one to fight on borders…or they get bored of running around in that giant map that takes 20 minutes of walk around to find an enemy,if there is one.
And then,they have to hope that the enemy guild doesn’t go bunker in a tower,because at this point is really the end….the anti-fun experience.

Don’t know if you guys still want to insist on the “they are all in PvE , give them time , they will come back in WvW”.

From my point of view,there is something not nice happening to the WvW community.
After two weeks you see hardcore WvWers dissapear from all the maps but EB , you can’t say " they are in PvE " or " they must get used to new maps".

The few that log in are not in PvE,THEY ARE IN QUEUE FOR EB ONLY.
THEY DON’T NEED TO GETNUSED TO NEW MAPS…simply because they saw new maps and find too many obstacles to have decent fights or to have any fun at all.

There are people that ofc likes the new maps,but just watch at your queue at prime times on borders to understand how many don’t like it.

That told…Anet must have his way to monitor then WvW player traffic , I would really take a look at it,just for curiosity, to understand if that’s my impression or if the WvW is really starting experiencing his darkest moment.

So, basically, everyone avoids the new map then complains that everyone avoids the new map.

Not very convincing criticism…

Sviel.7493:

So, basically, everyone avoids the new map then complains that everyone avoids the new map.

Not very convincing criticism…

At least i don’t complain that everyone avoids the maps. I complain about the things that make everyone avoid those maps.
Today on reset we had some fights. But i still don’t like the maps, the verticality, the long ways and the confusing design and the many places where you can fall to your death. That all causes frustration for me and makes the fights less dynamic.

But to be fair: It is NOT just the map, it is also the changed systems. Even playing in EB is not that much fun as before. It is just the from the maps i can choose the place that feels most like the “old” WvW that i enjoyed.

Jim Hunter.6821:

Either way there was always someone to fight and people were motivated to come and defend their structures. Not like now.

I agree with this. Sarcasm be your friend because ironically the new worlds eliminated most of the problems scouts had. Because most things run on auto and keeps have instant wp, all the things scouts worried about – because time and effort was put into it – simply was devalued. It did not solve any defense problems it simply made them irrelevant.
On my server most “hardcore” defenders are on eb running with the blob and doing the occassional “fun defense” (hard habit to loose not to jump wp to check what those crosses are about, build a bit siege and stuff).

Of course there is also a lot of new meta to be learned and I think there is still fun to be had on the bl, but it would need a change of attitute.
On my server gvg during prime often effectly blocked defense on homes because we could not get help on the map and you had to beg the gvg. But now that defense would have come easier….gvgs gone (from complains I hear the maps are to hard to navigate and gvg with the hightened environmental map awareness requirement is just to hard for ours who are used so simple head-bashing).
EB is simply “easier” whereas the bl would, next to population, require lot more strategy and communiction due to the landscape. Also, the dollys are ugly on bl.

I personally give it a few more weeks to see what happens when most finished pve, hoping that people are pushing for bl simply bc eb is not possible to get on. Maybe some people and commanders by then will give a try….still I dont know where that one will go.

Sviel.7493:

So, basically, everyone avoids the new map then complains that everyone avoids the new map.

Not very convincing criticism…

Tonight was the first night I didn’t end up on EBG at the tail end of my rally!

We spent all night on TCBL. Had some great three-ways at TCBL garrison. It was a party. XD

We had some fun on bg bl – went there because EBG and yb bl were queued. We had at least 3 guild groups and bg had quite a sizable force too. That said, I still don’t like the map (even with all the loot because of wells/marks at choke points)… Maybe if we could glide (but not into keeps)

I had to miss reset, but I ran scout defense for ~3 hours well after reset raids ended. I was alone at first but eventually amassed a group of ~5 people. We had several fights, mostly against other small groups—nothing over 10 people. There were 4+ attempts on Airkeep (cata, ram, no siege dropped, cata), 1 attempt on Necropolis (1 ram, 1 alpha, 1 omega), 1 attempt on Academy (1 guild cata) and countless skirmishes over camps, sentries and shrines. There wasn’t much time for offense beyond recapping camps/shrines, but we attempted to take the south east spawn tower and were nearly wiped in lord’s room by 10 enemies. Survivors fled to airkeep thanks to fall damage immunity providing an escape.

Notably, one player who joined up was playing WvW for the first time. He helped take a camp and build catas for the tower.

Despite the wide range of the attacks, I was able to predict them all by watching sentries and camps for marked enemies and swords. Thus, we were able to prevent any major damage. When I left, the enemies seemed to have swapped maps and an ally offered to tag up. It seemed like they were surprised to see people on…I’m betting that having people in map chat convinced more than a few folks to linger a bit instead of declaring the map empty and logging out.

I should note, we lost firekeep during this time as it was attacked while we were defending airkeep. Also, this was in T2.

Anyway, my point is that defense is alive and well. Offense is also doing great, but people are going to have to learn to build siege outside of cannon range or to at least kill the cannons/oil first. I had a great deal of fun tonight on the new BL—I’m confident that, once time runs it’s course, they’ll come to be loved as much as the Alpine variant. The only question is will it be by the same people.

I asked my friend why she didn’t like the new borderland, this was her response: “Too much PvE”

I then pointed out to her there were maybe a few more guards than normal but that hasn’t really changed. I asked where specifically the problem was. She then fell back on the big central oasis event calling it a PvE event.

I then pointed out that if people bothered to give the maps a try she would be fighting players in that event not dinosaurs.

The problem is in some part the players stigmatising the new maps and shooting down anyone who likes it. The other problem to me is WvW is end game content. I play it when I’m done with everything else and between guild upgrades, achievements, mapping, soon new legendary journeys, raids and all these new stat combos, which require grind for, I don’t have the time for the same stale boring servers that run from fights even before HoT.

This is a player driven problem.

the new BL map is too big and it’s too easy to avoid fighting. would have been better to have had 3x individual BL maps 1/3rd the size.

apharma.3741:

I asked my friend why she didn’t like the new borderland, this was her response: “Too much PvE”

I then pointed out to her there were maybe a few more guards than normal but that hasn’t really changed. I asked where specifically the problem was. She then fell back on the big central oasis event calling it a PvE event.

I then pointed out that if people bothered to give the maps a try she would be fighting players in that event not dinosaurs.

The problem is in some part the players stigmatising the new maps and shooting down anyone who likes it. The other problem to me is WvW is end game content. I play it when I’m done with everything else and between guild upgrades, achievements, mapping, soon new legendary journeys, raids and all these new stat combos, which require grind for, I don’t have the time for the same stale boring servers that run from fights even before HoT.

This is a player driven problem.

Too much pve doesn’t mean the number of npc’s on the map. It means how much the game is affected by the pve gimmicks.

If you run a collection event in the center of the map you simultaneously attack every structure on the map.

The shrines offer ridiculous buffs around keeps that discourage fighting.

You have invisible zergs in sand storms. You have walls shooting you and burning you. You have constant cripple and random earth barricades popping out of the ground. The map randomly knocks you off of cliffs.

WvW isn’t my ”endgame”, it’s my entire game. I have a lot of characters with 0 map completion because I leveled them through pvp and solo roaming. I play this game to fight other players, not the environment.

You seem to enjoy it because you like pve, but a lot of us don’t. Adding an oversized dungeon map as the bl’s alienates players like me, but at the same time it’s not enough to entice pure pve players into the game mode.

That’s why it fails. It’s driving away players on the far sides of the spectrum and the only players that are ”okay” with the map are people like you who are more middle ground. But the middle ground people were already playing both game modes, so the map is just driving people away without bringing anyone new in.

The event in the middle may be a collection event but you are still fighting players. Collection events are also nothing new to PvP, ever played spirit watch? Been there for a long time, some like it some don’t but to claim it’s a PvE event because it has an NPC there to dump the shines into is just silly.

I personally like the way shrines work. No longer can you jump into a map with 50 people and golem rush garri, you have to think, take shrines, weaken the fortress and then attack. If map and situational awareness is too much for the “WvW is my whole game” people then I dunno what to say, I guess face rubbing doors has really affected the die hard WvW fans more than we thought.

Also please don’t pretend like the vocal minority here is indicative of the whole population or those you feel WvW is the entire game. I’ve seen many of my friends enjoying these changes and maps who fit into your category. Likewise of my friends list I have roughly 20 people who primarily play WvW. Upon asking most of them why they aren’t there it’s because they’re doing PvE to get guild upgrades, lag in WvW and because the only maps they can get into, the borders, there’s no-one. To clarify a lot of them do not mind the map either.

apharma.3741:

The event in the middle may be a collection event but you are still fighting players. Collection events are also nothing new to PvP, ever played spirit watch? Been there for a long time, some like it some don’t but to claim it’s a PvE event because it has an NPC there to dump the shines into is just silly.

I personally like the way shrines work. No longer can you jump into a map with 50 people and golem rush garri, you have to think, take shrines, weaken the fortress and then attack. If map and situational awareness is too much for the “WvW is my whole game” people then I dunno what to say, I guess face rubbing doors has really affected the die hard WvW fans more than we thought.

Also please don’t pretend like the vocal minority here is indicative of the whole population or those you feel WvW is the entire game. I’ve seen many of my friends enjoying these changes and maps who fit into your category. Likewise of my friends list I have roughly 20 people who primarily play WvW. Upon asking most of them why they aren’t there it’s because they’re doing PvE to get guild upgrades, lag in WvW and because the only maps they can get into, the borders, there’s no-one. To clarify a lot of them do not mind the map either.

So out of your list of primary WvW friends none of them are playing it…..

”I don’t mind the new map but I can’t get into EB so I’m just going to pve instead.”

k.

Also, there is a reason why spirit watch is one of the most hated maps and it was never included in ranked.

Jim Hunter.6821:

apharma.3741:

The event in the middle may be a collection event but you are still fighting players. Collection events are also nothing new to PvP, ever played spirit watch? Been there for a long time, some like it some don’t but to claim it’s a PvE event because it has an NPC there to dump the shines into is just silly.

I personally like the way shrines work. No longer can you jump into a map with 50 people and golem rush garri, you have to think, take shrines, weaken the fortress and then attack. If map and situational awareness is too much for the “WvW is my whole game” people then I dunno what to say, I guess face rubbing doors has really affected the die hard WvW fans more than we thought.

Also please don’t pretend like the vocal minority here is indicative of the whole population or those you feel WvW is the entire game. I’ve seen many of my friends enjoying these changes and maps who fit into your category. Likewise of my friends list I have roughly 20 people who primarily play WvW. Upon asking most of them why they aren’t there it’s because they’re doing PvE to get guild upgrades, lag in WvW and because the only maps they can get into, the borders, there’s no-one. To clarify a lot of them do not mind the map either.

So out of your list of primary WvW friends none of them are playing it…..

”I don’t mind the new map but I can’t get into EB so I’m just going to pve instead.”

k.

Also, there is a reason why spirit watch is one of the most hated maps and it was never included in ranked.

I did not say that please don’t resort to changing my words and passing it off as a quote.

They don’t play the new borderland because people aren’t there. There’s no-one to fight because of ignorant and elitist WvW players choosing to treat the new maps with scorn. They go to a fully capped border, shrug, go to another. Cap it with no resistance and decide eff this I’ll go to a more rewarding place.

The problem is players aren’t there to fight not the maps, the lag and because of rewards being vastly better in PvE.

apharma.3741:

Jim Hunter.6821:

apharma.3741:

The event in the middle may be a collection event but you are still fighting players. Collection events are also nothing new to PvP, ever played spirit watch? Been there for a long time, some like it some don’t but to claim it’s a PvE event because it has an NPC there to dump the shines into is just silly.

I personally like the way shrines work. No longer can you jump into a map with 50 people and golem rush garri, you have to think, take shrines, weaken the fortress and then attack. If map and situational awareness is too much for the “WvW is my whole game” people then I dunno what to say, I guess face rubbing doors has really affected the die hard WvW fans more than we thought.

Also please don’t pretend like the vocal minority here is indicative of the whole population or those you feel WvW is the entire game. I’ve seen many of my friends enjoying these changes and maps who fit into your category. Likewise of my friends list I have roughly 20 people who primarily play WvW. Upon asking most of them why they aren’t there it’s because they’re doing PvE to get guild upgrades, lag in WvW and because the only maps they can get into, the borders, there’s no-one. To clarify a lot of them do not mind the map either.

So out of your list of primary WvW friends none of them are playing it…..

”I don’t mind the new map but I can’t get into EB so I’m just going to pve instead.”

k.

Also, there is a reason why spirit watch is one of the most hated maps and it was never included in ranked.

I did not say that please don’t resort to changing my words and passing it off as a quote.

They don’t play the new borderland because people aren’t there. There’s no-one to fight because of ignorant and elitist WvW players choosing to treat the new maps with scorn. They go to a fully capped border, shrug, go to another. Cap it with no resistance and decide eff this I’ll go to a more rewarding place.

The problem is players aren’t there to fight not the maps, the lag and because of rewards being vastly better in PvE.

I never once played in the alpine map for the rewards.

And WvW players not enjoying pve as much as you do doesn’t make them ”ignorant and elitist”. Don’t resort to insulting people because you don’t have a strong argument.

They mentioned over a year ago wanting to move towards an alliance system rather than a server based system.

My guess is there Server Transfers would become irrelevant so money would be lost. They were not able to find a way to monetize “Alliances”.

We are in a better state than dungeons, because at least work is being done, just not necessarily in the direction WvW people want. Instead they keep attempting to make WvW more interesting for PvE people to draw them in, which works counter to what the majority of daily players in this game mode would want.

Let me explain why I say ignorant and elitist.

These are the people saying the middle event is mindless PvE that ruins it and that is too much PvE.

However they fail to bother realising that the entire game is a lot more PvE. Think about it, how do you take a tower with no-one there? Ram door down, kill the NPCs and stand in the circle. This is a lot more PvE than that event in the middle as you’re actually fighting NPCs as opposed to fighting other players to turn in a maguffin to what could even be just a basket.

That’s without touching on the silliness of saying it contains a collect and turn in event making it PvE. It’s like saying conquest has capture circles which are in PvE and so its PvE.

apharma.3741:

Let me explain why I say ignorant and elitist.

These are the people saying the middle event is mindless PvE that ruins it and that is too much PvE.

However they fail to bother realising that the entire game is a lot more PvE. Think about it, how do you take a tower with no-one there? Ram door down, kill the NPCs and stand in the circle. This is a lot more PvE than that event in the middle as you’re actually fighting NPCs as opposed to fighting other players to turn in a maguffin to what could even be just a basket.

That’s without touching on the silliness of saying it contains a collect and turn in event making it PvE. It’s like saying conquest has capture circles which are in PvE and so its PvE.

Please go read the WvW CDI that’s now over a year old where people asked for “LESS PVE” and you’ll understand the why people are actually a bit annoyed they full on went the EoTM more gimmick and PvE route.

Jim Hunter.6821:

The shrines offer ridiculous buffs around keeps that discourage fighting.

At no time yet has my guild been discouraged to fight because of an opponent having a shrine buff. Did Major and Minor Ruins Bloodlust discourage fighting for you?

You have invisible zergs in sand storms.

My guild has yet to be wiped by an invisible zerg in the sand storm. Remember culling abuse? Good times.

You have walls shooting you and burning you.

TS conversation last night:
- “Where is this burning coming from?”
- “It is from the fire turrets on those pillars.”
- “They can’t be destroyed.”
- “Oh that’s annoying. At least they don’t hurt.”

Conclusion: Not as big an issue as it is being made out.

apharma.3741:

However they fail to bother realising that the entire game is a lot more PvE.

I disagree. It think on a certain level it is disingenuous to be a “true hardcore” WvW player and pretend that WvW is supposed to not have PvE elements. What this subset of player is looking for really seems to be some form of open world PvP, a stripped down and casual fights environment, which one could argue even then it has PvE.

Remember quaggan events and the lightning storms that would take out all your siege? Remember collecting pearls to give to the quaggans? I still have some of those! This is how WvW was played. It is like the old orbs. Those were some mechanic that you were forced to concern yourself with because it was part of the game. It could interrupt your attention from sieging someone’s keep or your awesome open field fight. I guess I’m not seeing how that is supposed to be different from, for example, the Oasis event which everyone seems to be saying is PvE.

Like I wrote, I think there’s a subset of players that are asking for a stripped down and casual fights environment, one that doesn’t have game aspects that can interrupt your fights. They are claiming to be “true WvW players”, but I think they’re really some open world PvP players because “true WvW” is about managing the activity that goes on across all four maps like an RTS, not “hey we’re having an open field fight over here.”

Chaba.5410:

Like I wrote, I think there’s a subset of players that are asking for a stripped down and casual fights environment, one that doesn’t have game aspects that can interrupt your fights. They are claiming to be “true WvW players”, but I think they’re really some open world PvP players because “true WvW” is about managing the activity that goes on across all four maps like an RTS, not “hey we’re having an open field fight over here.”

I think the guild hall arenas were developed specifically for these players.

The part of your quote that I bolded is so true, and it amazes me that so many posters on this forum complaining about “PvE” don’t seem to realize it. It’s almost as if they have made themselves oblivious to WvW’s fundamental design. WvW is an open world objective-based PvP game mode. It has always been about managing environments and objectives. Often that means fighting other players over those objectives, but not always. It has been like this since the game launched, from the original orb event and quaggan island, to ruins/bloodlust, to the very basics like escorting/sniping yaks, taking down walls and gates, killing guards and lords, etc. The oasis event and the shrine bonuses are completely within this design philosophy.

BrickFurious.7169:

Chaba.5410:

Like I wrote, I think there’s a subset of players that are asking for a stripped down and casual fights environment, one that doesn’t have game aspects that can interrupt your fights. They are claiming to be “true WvW players”, but I think they’re really some open world PvP players because “true WvW” is about managing the activity that goes on across all four maps like an RTS, not “hey we’re having an open field fight over here.”

I think the guild hall arenas were developed specifically for these players.

The part of your quote that I bolded is so true, and it amazes me that so many posters on this forum complaining about “PvE” don’t seem to realize it. It’s almost as if they have made themselves oblivious to WvW’s fundamental design. WvW is an open world objective-based PvP game mode. It has always been about managing environments and objectives. Often that means fighting other players over those objectives, but not always. It has been like this since the game launched, from the original orb event and quaggan island, to ruins/bloodlust, to the very basics like escorting/sniping yaks, taking down walls and gates, killing guards and lords, etc. The oasis event and the shrine bonuses are completely within this design philosophy.

Are you worried about the future of this game mode, or do you just want to discuss the true definition of “Pve” from a philosophical standpoint?

Kilver.7094:

BrickFurious.7169:

Chaba.5410:

Like I wrote, I think there’s a subset of players that are asking for a stripped down and casual fights environment, one that doesn’t have game aspects that can interrupt your fights. They are claiming to be “true WvW players”, but I think they’re really some open world PvP players because “true WvW” is about managing the activity that goes on across all four maps like an RTS, not “hey we’re having an open field fight over here.”

I think the guild hall arenas were developed specifically for these players.

The part of your quote that I bolded is so true, and it amazes me that so many posters on this forum complaining about “PvE” don’t seem to realize it. It’s almost as if they have made themselves oblivious to WvW’s fundamental design. WvW is an open world objective-based PvP game mode. It has always been about managing environments and objectives. Often that means fighting other players over those objectives, but not always. It has been like this since the game launched, from the original orb event and quaggan island, to ruins/bloodlust, to the very basics like escorting/sniping yaks, taking down walls and gates, killing guards and lords, etc. The oasis event and the shrine bonuses are completely within this design philosophy.

Are you worried about the future of this game mode, or do you just want to discuss the true definition of “Pve” from a philosophical standpoint?

If “PvE” is going to be continually leveled as a form of criticism, it is hardly a philosophical discussion to demand a substantive definition of it.

And of course I’m worried about the future of this game mode. Wanna throw another false dilemma at me?

I’d just prefer not to call open world PvP “WvW” because it isn’t. Open world PvP is fights on a map with terrain and stuff and no score. I enjoy both open world PvP and WvW.

BrickFurious.7169:

Chaba.5410:

Like I wrote, I think there’s a subset of players that are asking for a stripped down and casual fights environment, one that doesn’t have game aspects that can interrupt your fights. They are claiming to be “true WvW players”, but I think they’re really some open world PvP players because “true WvW” is about managing the activity that goes on across all four maps like an RTS, not “hey we’re having an open field fight over here.”

I think the guild hall arenas were developed specifically for these players.

The part of your quote that I bolded is so true, and it amazes me that so many posters on this forum complaining about “PvE” don’t seem to realize it. It’s almost as if they have made themselves oblivious to WvW’s fundamental design. WvW is an open world objective-based PvP game mode. It has always been about managing environments and objectives. Often that means fighting other players over those objectives, but not always. .

And you seem oblivious to the difference between artificial environmental obstacles and natural/organic obstacles and that when people object to the former it doesn’t mean they are also referring about the latter.

morrolan.9608:

BrickFurious.7169:

Chaba.5410:

Like I wrote, I think there’s a subset of players that are asking for a stripped down and casual fights environment, one that doesn’t have game aspects that can interrupt your fights. They are claiming to be “true WvW players”, but I think they’re really some open world PvP players because “true WvW” is about managing the activity that goes on across all four maps like an RTS, not “hey we’re having an open field fight over here.”

I think the guild hall arenas were developed specifically for these players.

The part of your quote that I bolded is so true, and it amazes me that so many posters on this forum complaining about “PvE” don’t seem to realize it. It’s almost as if they have made themselves oblivious to WvW’s fundamental design. WvW is an open world objective-based PvP game mode. It has always been about managing environments and objectives. Often that means fighting other players over those objectives, but not always. .

And you seem oblivious to the difference between artificial environmental obstacles and natural/organic obstacles and that when people object to the former it doesn’t mean they are also referring about the latter.

Aha, now we’re getting down to the meat of things a little. So which are the artificial obstacles, and which are the organic ones?

Canyons and lakes

BrickFurious.7169:

morrolan.9608:

BrickFurious.7169:

Chaba.5410:

Like I wrote, I think there’s a subset of players that are asking for a stripped down and casual fights environment, one that doesn’t have game aspects that can interrupt your fights. They are claiming to be “true WvW players”, but I think they’re really some open world PvP players because “true WvW” is about managing the activity that goes on across all four maps like an RTS, not “hey we’re having an open field fight over here.”

I think the guild hall arenas were developed specifically for these players.

The part of your quote that I bolded is so true, and it amazes me that so many posters on this forum complaining about “PvE” don’t seem to realize it. It’s almost as if they have made themselves oblivious to WvW’s fundamental design. WvW is an open world objective-based PvP game mode. It has always been about managing environments and objectives. Often that means fighting other players over those objectives, but not always. .

And you seem oblivious to the difference between artificial environmental obstacles and natural/organic obstacles and that when people object to the former it doesn’t mean they are also referring about the latter.

Aha, now we’re getting down to the meat of things a little. So which are the artificial obstacles, and which are the organic ones?

Would have thought it was pretty clear, pop up rocks are artificial, something like a swamp affecting movement is natural.

apharma.3741:

Let me explain why I say ignorant and elitist.

These are the people saying the middle event is mindless PvE that ruins it and that is too much PvE.

However they fail to bother realising that the entire game is a lot more PvE. Think about it, how do you take a tower with no-one there? Ram door down, kill the NPCs and stand in the circle. This is a lot more PvE than that event in the middle as you’re actually fighting NPCs as opposed to fighting other players to turn in a maguffin to what could even be just a basket.

That’s without touching on the silliness of saying it contains a collect and turn in event making it PvE. It’s like saying conquest has capture circles which are in PvE and so its PvE.

I think u really dont get the wvw main playerbase.here is a little bit of my experiance:

wvw has always been a kinda sandbox battle game mode where the players would shape the way the battles went. we used to have a lake in the middle and a quaggan event which was later removed as the quaggans and the kraits as pve farmbots would mess with the mapcap and send entire farmzergs to the lakes in the bls…..(a reason why rewards should never be high in wvw)

later on the thieves and mesmers started to contest keeps by tagging it and it was a legit strategy to prevent the zergs from reaching bay/hills in time.
yaks were killed over and over in order to prevent upgrades which was also a legit strategy.

there were scouts upgrading and sieging keeps and towers up and also escorting dolyaks. ( i did spend a lot of time watching over critical areas where enemy used to golemrush like garrison watergate or hills southgate.

also before i got into zergbusting, i was running in a small guild and when we were tag-less we would ninja keeps and towers and it was fun…

.ive been part of epic fights where the 2 other servers kept trying to take our keep and they kept attacking wave after wave and poof all of the sudden the keep upgraded because someone managed to get that 1 dolyak in…

wvw is…well was fun because it was us who made the rules, not a pve mob, not a laser, not a shrine, not a pve buff and not the keeplord.
now the keep lords are behaving like pve champions and are more in charge than the actual player.
there are automated upgrades which ruin the whole scouting experience.

the keeps and towers dont look like actual structures that i would even bother to defend. i mean garrison hiills and bay all looked like keeps that could function sorta. the towers did need a little overhaul but now they are like ruined structures and not real towers. also why even bother sieging it up or defending…. ai does it all for u and ai traps and sandstorms and shrinebuffs and then there is the laser event …..thats why eotm never worked as a wvw map.

too much pve gimmicks like shrinebuffs and keeplords that are hard to kill.

a nd then the map is way too complex.

its just not wvw…

Article is not relevant to actual problems that have been known now since six months after retail.

1. Population + 24 hour coverage separates top to bottom, not skill
2. New maps are nice, but we didn’t need 3
3. No portal for “ALL” players (by name, class, guild, week, month)
4. Orbs broke
5. No guard warnings for claiming
6. Focus is always EBG
7. Dumbed down – Obsidian Sanctum / JP’s map complete (no siege), traps, ghost town

List goes on and on and on. Bottom line, EBG should have been replaced with 1 copy of the new map. Original borderland maps stay as is. Entry point to new map is via borderlands. While passing through, re/supply to take to new map…

Anyway just my take on it having played DaOC for a long time.

reddie.5861:

there are enough people to fill up these maps, people just dont wanna play the horrible layout of the map.

The more I am in there, the more I agree. This is a terrible map for wvwvw.

morrolan.9608:

BrickFurious.7169:

morrolan.9608:

BrickFurious.7169:

Chaba.5410:

Like I wrote, I think there’s a subset of players that are asking for a stripped down and casual fights environment, one that doesn’t have game aspects that can interrupt your fights. They are claiming to be “true WvW players”, but I think they’re really some open world PvP players because “true WvW” is about managing the activity that goes on across all four maps like an RTS, not “hey we’re having an open field fight over here.”

I think the guild hall arenas were developed specifically for these players.

The part of your quote that I bolded is so true, and it amazes me that so many posters on this forum complaining about “PvE” don’t seem to realize it. It’s almost as if they have made themselves oblivious to WvW’s fundamental design. WvW is an open world objective-based PvP game mode. It has always been about managing environments and objectives. Often that means fighting other players over those objectives, but not always. .

And you seem oblivious to the difference between artificial environmental obstacles and natural/organic obstacles and that when people object to the former it doesn’t mean they are also referring about the latter.

Aha, now we’re getting down to the meat of things a little. So which are the artificial obstacles, and which are the organic ones?

Would have thought it was pretty clear, pop up rocks are artificial, something like a swamp affecting movement is natural.

Got it, so rocks are artificial and swamps are natural. Never mind that WvW has no such swamps (I was hoping for some actual examples from WvW). What are walls and gates then, artificial or natural?

selan.8354:

entire farmzergs to the lakes in the bls…..(a reason why rewards should never be high in wvw)

Are you referring to the “kill 50 krait” daily?