Guild Wars 2

To be more clear, it really bothers me that if I get someone down, and then finish them, they can be revived on the field. That is such a kick in the teeth at times and I’ll explain why.

One of my favorite things to do in my small-time organized group is hunt down and assassinate commanders in the heart of the zerg. I’ll give two scenario’s in which this happened and was ruined.

1. At dreaming bay, we were defending inner and the enemy was setting up siege just on the inside of south east outer gate. I searched around for a bit, and then I spotted the commander on the dock. My group was only about 10 people and the enemy had ~40 or so. So my friends and I jumped off the wall where the enemy was weakest and cut a path through them, and I made a beeline for that commander. He didn’t realize it until I got up real close and then I blew everything just to kill him. As he started running up the stairs the other players started jumping down. I downed him and I got downed shortly after. My final downed autoattack killed the commander just before I was killed. And then he was revived.

2. Defending garrison inner, they were ramming the gate. I spotted the commander in the midst. He was standing still. I told my comrade to fire a ballista shot at him and he did, it hit the commander and then I blazed through to kill him and I did. I downed him and then popped stability and killed him. Died trying to make my way back inside, but the commander was revived.

I can live with downed state, even though I think it ruins pvp there’s still a lot of good pvp to be had. But that’s a valid strategy, find the commander and kill him to remove the mind controlling the zerg. The commanders are never in plain sight, you have to individually click them and then review their buffs before you can realize that they are a commander. That’s awesome, but I think that in order for such a strategy to have any worth, you should have to waypoint/respawn if you completely die.

Not to mention it would make those small pushes just to kill a few of the larger zerg off worth it if they couldn’t just res the deads back up. It’s just one of these things that empowers the larger zerg and takes away from strategy.

The reasons aren’t bad. It’s just that dying and running back to wherever you were would take forever and you would end up running 99% of the time in WvW, (rather than 90%).

Also there would be a LOT more treb wars and a lot less zergs attacking fortified positions head on. It might make things more tactical but it would be less action and less fun overall.

Problem is there r no rez skills. You should be able to rez somehow

Alternatively, remove downed state and only allow hard revives!

Agree. Its just another way the mechanics of the game reward the numerically superior force.

The travel time to get back to your former position is a appropriate penalty for “hard” death.

hard revives should be out of combat only (WvW only).

Although I agree with you partially, I do not care for the examples you had given me. They happen to all players all the time, not specifically for commanders.

What needs to be changed is not the function to res, but the function of rallying. I believe increasing the amount of kills you need to receive credit for to rally could increase, or have it so that only players you tag while in the downed state give you the option to rally if they are killed.

Chewy.9263:

What needs to be changed is not the function to res, but the function of rallying. I believe increasing the amount of kills you need to receive credit for to rally could increase, or have it so that only players you tag while in the downed state give you the option to rally if they are killed.

just put a 120 second cool down on rallying.

Catisa.6507:

just put a 120 second cool down on rallying.

YES!

So everyone could just roll a gc build and kill things in 5 seconds or less! :P
The game in its current state is not balanced that way, you’re not looking at the big picture, you have low lvl ppl who jump into WvW too, downed state is really great help when you’re playing with a new toon, all classes damage output would need a rework, implementation of rez skills (I think we currently we have 2 classes with rez skills) what I mean is that there’re so many factors to consider that would not be so easy to implement it, you might think that is not that hard, but IMO… class balance its strongly attached to the downed state

treyalsup.4627:

Agree. Its just another way the mechanics of the game reward the numerically superior force.

The travel time to get back to your former position is a appropriate penalty for “hard” death.

But this is reasonable given that the numerically superior force should win no? I mean even in real life most of the time a battle is just a question of numbers.

It would be interesting if killing a Commander gave an Aoe demoralization debuff for a short period of time. Nothing too groundbreaking, since then the harassment would get out of control probably, but as the OP stated: it would be a nice idea to make a Commander kill noticeable for the opposing zerg.

Xolo.3580:

It would be interesting if killing a Commander gave an Aoe demoralization debuff for a short period of time. Nothing too groundbreaking, since then the harassment would get out of control probably, but as the OP stated: it would be a nice idea to make a Commander kill noticeable for the opposing zerg.

This.

While my suggestions may seem harsh, there should be some strategical value for going out of your way to assassinate a commander. It adds an element of strategy to be able to affect a large force by taking out the commander. Not only that, but it could offer something to smaller groups who can’t contend with a huge zerg but have the option to catch the commander off-guard and assassinate him.

McDili.1549:

To be more clear, it really bothers me that if I get someone down, and then finish them, they can be revived on the field. That is such a kick in the teeth at times and I’ll explain why.

One of my favorite things to do in my small-time organized group is hunt down and assassinate commanders in the heart of the zerg. I’ll give two scenario’s in which this happened and was ruined.

It takes far longer to revive someone who has been finished off than to revive someone still propped on one elbow. The fact that the enemy commanders were revived after you finished them simply means that your own forces had not won the engagement or controlled the field. You don’t have any justification for being bothered by what the enemy can do in territory they still control. Win the rest of the battle and they won’t be able to revive the commander.

You seem to be playing some version of the game that exists only in your own head, in which commanders are far more critical to immediate battle outcomes than they are in the game the rest of us are playing. The fact that they can recover from your heroics (as skillful as those heroics may be) is balanced by the fact that their main benefit to the army is often just a marker around which to say “everyone go here next”.

To put it another way, if you want a coded mechanic in the game that cripples an army to some degree when you assassinate a commander, you need to also suggest a coded mechanic that provides a significant and tangible benefit to the army when the commander is alive, beyond just being the talking blue markers that they are now. (You will then, of course, have to figure out how to do your assassinations in the face of the enemy army being much more aware of the need to protect the commander, but that seems only fair.)

Here’s yet another way to look at it: if you don’t want to unbalance the game by adding super-powerful boons that the commander provides and which would be shut down or reversed when you assassinate them, what benefits do commanders currently and uniquely provide, that the game could shut down?

1. They provide a blue icon for players to group around. Could we make the commander icon deactivate when the commander is killed completely? This might work. It would then become less obvious where reinforcements should go. I don’t think it would have much impact on the army already there, but it’s something.

2. They give orders and directions in map chat that people are more likely to follow than those of non-commanders. Do we make dead commanders unable to use chat? I don’t think you could single commanders out for such a penalty while all other players get to keep talking while dead, and then you’re talking about muting everyone when dead. That would be so annoying and unpopular that Anet would never do it, despite the realism.

Honestly, commanders don’t have that big an impact on immediate battle outcomes, in my experience. A GW2 army is a chaotic rabble, not a disciplined force following orders in unison, and that rabble generally keeps on rabbling whether the commander is alive or not.

/agree. For all aspects of the game

Voilodion.3791:

McDili.1549:

To be more clear, it really bothers me that if I get someone down, and then finish them, they can be revived on the field. That is such a kick in the teeth at times and I’ll explain why.

One of my favorite things to do in my small-time organized group is hunt down and assassinate commanders in the heart of the zerg. I’ll give two scenario’s in which this happened and was ruined.

It takes far longer to revive someone who has been finished off than to revive someone still propped on one elbow. The fact that the enemy commanders were revived after you finished them simply means that your own forces had not won the engagement or controlled the field. You don’t have any justification for being bothered by what the enemy can do in territory they still control. Win the rest of the battle and they won’t be able to revive the commander.

You seem to be playing some version of the game that exists only in your own head, in which commanders are far more critical to immediate battle outcomes than they are in the game the rest of us are playing. The fact that they can recover from your heroics (as skillful as those heroics may be) is balanced by the fact that their main benefit to the army is often just a marker around which to say “everyone go here next”.

To put it another way, if you want a coded mechanic in the game that cripples an army to some degree when you assassinate a commander, you need to also suggest a coded mechanic that provides a significant and tangible benefit to the army when the commander is alive, beyond just being the talking blue markers that they are now. (You will then, of course, have to figure out how to do your assassinations in the face of the enemy army being much more aware of the need to protect the commander, but that seems only fair.)

I’m aware of how much longer it takes to revive someone that’s completely dead, but it definitely doesn’t take long when the zerg around the commander is coordinated enough to aid the commander and revive him. It’s just a couple seconds.

I know why the commander was revived, I’m playing the same game you are as well. I promise. I kill commanders regardless because at the very least, it makes the players near him focus on me or him rather than our zerg at large.

I don’t need justification for a feeling I have, feelings happen without justification.

All your fair-talk is fine, it doesn’t change the desire for an element of strategy to be added.

I agree WvW would be better off without reviving dead players. But, then they should also adress the issue of keep tagging, so waypoints aren’t contested 90% of the time, cuz nobody wants to run from the start everytime they die.

i saw somewhere someone mentioned once, if someone gets staked/stomped/finished, that should force a respawn.

or the CD on rally works too.

though i wouldn’t completely take out the downed states or defeated states and the ability to revive someone who’s “dead” dead.

Catisa.6507:

hard revives should be out of combat only (WvW only).

This. I like this.

Faux Sheaux.6179:

Catisa.6507:

hard revives should be out of combat only (WvW only).

This. I like this.

^ This is the only idea in this thread that I like and would like to see implemented in WvW.

Faux Sheaux.6179:

Catisa.6507:

hard revives should be out of combat only (WvW only).

This. I like this.

/signed

Please Anet, make this happen.

purpleskies.3274:

Faux Sheaux.6179:

Catisa.6507:

hard revives should be out of combat only (WvW only).

This. I like this.

/signed

Please Anet, make this happen.

I disagree, reviving someone under fire is an act of bravery and skill that should be rewarded.

Catisa.6507:

hard revives should be out of combat only (WvW only).

This. Once for all.

Contiguous.1345:

purpleskies.3274:

Faux Sheaux.6179:

Catisa.6507:

hard revives should be out of combat only (WvW only).

This. I like this.

/signed

Please Anet, make this happen.

I disagree, reviving someone under fire is an act of bravery and skill that should be rewarded.

The following is a suggestion that was made by a poster on the GW Wiki feedback page before the game was even released. I do not take credit for it, but simply repeat it here as it applies to this discussion:

Personally, I’d prefer to see hard revives out of combat only, as well. However, I can see the point being made by Contiguous. There are a subset of players for whom that selfless heroic act of reviving someone while under fire has value to them in the game.

In order to accommodate this group within the context of a “hard revive out of combat only” mechanic I offer this compromise (which is what the GW Wiki suggestion was about).

Allow players who are still alive and in combat to interact with a defeated/dead player such that they can either drag or carry their fallen comrade away from the battle. While doing so, their weapon skills are disabled but they still have access to their utility skills.

Once they’ve carried or dragged their defeated ally a safe distance and are out of combat mode, they can then revive them.

Short of that, while in combat, dead is dead. Barring the aid of a good Samaritan as described above, the only way to revive is to wait until the current battle has concluded and hope your side emerges victorious or respawn at a waypoint.

No more revives in combat. Stop rewarding zergs to the exclusion of all else.

Well theres already a limit of player rezing the target, and how many you get down more will be distracted rezing their budies, you have two options here, continue atacking or stop making damage and rez a buddie, if hard rez is the only solutions player will just spawn back, regroup and zerg 2.0 .

And Yes, i agree with down state on WvW, on small groups of 5 or in a larger group.

Contiguous.1345:

purpleskies.3274:

Faux Sheaux.6179:

Catisa.6507:

hard revives should be out of combat only (WvW only).

This. I like this.

/signed

Please Anet, make this happen.

I disagree, reviving someone under fire is an act of bravery and skill that should be rewarded.

Reviving a downed ally under fire is an act of bravery that is rewarded.

Reviving a dead ally? In my experience not so much due the fact it only really happens when you have 5 guys reviving someone in order to get them up in a reasonable amount of time, which only tends to happen when you have enough numbers to be able to hold off your opponent and ress your allies.

How often do you see a smaller group ress their dead when facing a larger enemy group?

Catisa.6507:

hard revives should be out of combat only (WvW only).

This wouldn’t help anything. In a 50+ zerg there is bound to be people out of combat at all times, or stragglers who enter the battle late and can revive.

Also, altering the downed state would probably punish smaller groups a lot more than zergs. When I run with my group we ensure that every stomp the enemy team gets is a hard fought one. In a disorganized zerg on the other hand, people tend to pay less attention to downed people, and spend much less effort trying to get them up.

Down system in general should be disabled in World vs World…

It rewards zerging far more then then anything else in this game.

“If you completely die in WvW, you should die.”

Like, drop dead in front of your computer?

lol, no.

I was thinking about something like death having more consequence in WvW myself just the other day. I go to great lengths to avoid dying at all and find the “I’ll just get rezzed or respawn” mentality to be rather annoying. If you die, you are defeated. You lose. I would like to think that playing styles would become more aware and tactics would be better if there were actually more drawback to death in WvW.

McDili.1549:

Xolo.3580:

It would be interesting if killing a Commander gave an Aoe demoralization debuff for a short period of time. Nothing too groundbreaking, since then the harassment would get out of control probably, but as the OP stated: it would be a nice idea to make a Commander kill noticeable for the opposing zerg.

N

This.

While my suggestions may seem harsh, there should be some strategical value for going out of your way to assassinate a commander. It adds an element of strategy to be able to affect a large force by taking out the commander. Not only that, but it could offer something to smaller groups who can’t contend with a huge zerg but have the option to catch the commander off-guard and assassinate him.

If there is a benefit to killing a commander then there should be a personal benefit to being one like champion level skills and abilities.

In real life too.

There needs to be a cool down on revive from death.

Current system works fine.

OMG u get opponent unable to move and loose most of his skills on 70% of his effective HP and still complain. U deserve to die head→wall.

I completely agree that dead should be dead with a respawn required. If ANet wants to alleviate zerging, why do they let the winning zerg completely heal themselves before they move on?

But something else that really bugs me is that in the middle of battle, you can revive a defeated player little by little, and the opposing players can do nothing about it. If I see a half-revived player laying there, why can’t I smack the —-- out of them and put them back down?

Catisa.6507:

hard revives should be out of combat only (WvW only).

^This. Make this happen please.

Too many times our small group of 20 players pushes into a blob of 60-80, downs 30+, fully kills 15-20 of these, only for us to back off to heal/buff etc etc, and in the short 5-10 seconds it takes to do this, those players we fully killed are completely ressed and throwing abilities our way again. Sure, there are times in history where superior numbers make the difference, but there are also many times when it came down to how organised and disciplined a force is, not how many there are of them. And at the minute, using the current system, there isn’t much smaller more organised forces can do to counter the blobs, when there should be.

Its often said on our comms, ‘They can res their dead faster than we can kill the rest of them’, which is purely down to how many of them there are. Its a mechanic that completely favours zerging, and has no benefits whatsoever to smaller groups.

Hilarious…I love listening to people complain about how their 10 people can’t stop the 40-50 that are attacking….I think people just want to play their way and don’t actually give a crap about looking at the game as a whole.

If you have 10 people and you attack 20+… YOU SHOULD LOSE. If you don’t…good for you, great job, but most of the time YOU SHOULD LOSE. Regardless of whatever mechanics you want in your head about how you think you should be rewarded for coming up with different tactics to try and beat the 20+ people…in the end YOU SHOULD LOSE.

WvW is…and always will be a numbers game, am I saying that there aren’t situations tactically where 10 can beat 20-30 or 40 people? No..i’m saying more often then not from a balance perspective you should lose.

The rezzing is fine as is, you can rez and so can they. Just because they can do it more efficiently because they have more people doesn’t make it imbalanced…because again its supposed to be that way…

Same thing with people complaining about the AoE limit. Originally…there was no AoE limit, and the issue was a group of 10 could almost effective wipe a group of 60. This was NOT intended, so they nerfed it. Because again….its a numbers game…the larger group SHOULD win. If it doesn’t…then the game is imbalanced. Rez state is fine, if anything fix skill lag first or something else that is actually important…

McDili.1549:

To be more clear, it really bothers me that if I get someone down, and then finish them, they can be revived on the field. That is such a kick in the teeth at times and I’ll explain why.

One of my favorite things to do in my small-time organized group is hunt down and assassinate commanders in the heart of the zerg. I’ll give two scenario’s in which this happened and was ruined.

1. At dreaming bay, we were defending inner and the enemy was setting up siege just on the inside of south east outer gate. I searched around for a bit, and then I spotted the commander on the dock. My group was only about 10 people and the enemy had ~40 or so. So my friends and I jumped off the wall where the enemy was weakest and cut a path through them, and I made a beeline for that commander. He didn’t realize it until I got up real close and then I blew everything just to kill him. As he started running up the stairs the other players started jumping down. I downed him and I got downed shortly after. My final downed autoattack killed the commander just before I was killed. And then he was revived.

2. Defending garrison inner, they were ramming the gate. I spotted the commander in the midst. He was standing still. I told my comrade to fire a ballista shot at him and he did, it hit the commander and then I blazed through to kill him and I did. I downed him and then popped stability and killed him. Died trying to make my way back inside, but the commander was revived.

I can live with downed state, even though I think it ruins pvp there’s still a lot of good pvp to be had. But that’s a valid strategy, find the commander and kill him to remove the mind controlling the zerg. The commanders are never in plain sight, you have to individually click them and then review their buffs before you can realize that they are a commander. That’s awesome, but I think that in order for such a strategy to have any worth, you should have to waypoint/respawn if you completely die.

Not to mention it would make those small pushes just to kill a few of the larger zerg off worth it if they couldn’t just res the deads back up. It’s just one of these things that empowers the larger zerg and takes away from strategy.

/signed

Gamadorn.2659:

Hilarious…I love listening to people complain about how their 10 people can’t stop the 40-50 that are attacking….I think people just want to play their way and don’t actually give a crap about looking at the game as a whole.

If you have 10 people and you attack 20+… YOU SHOULD LOSE. If you don’t…good for you, great job, but most of the time YOU SHOULD LOSE. Regardless of whatever mechanics you want in your head about how you think you should be rewarded for coming up with different tactics to try and beat the 20+ people…in the end YOU SHOULD LOSE.

WvW is…and always will be a numbers game, am I saying that there aren’t situations tactically where 10 can beat 20-30 or 40 people? No..i’m saying more often then not from a balance perspective you should lose.

The rezzing is fine as is, you can rez and so can they. Just because they can do it more efficiently because they have more people doesn’t make it imbalanced…because again its supposed to be that way…

Same thing with people complaining about the AoE limit. Originally…there was no AoE limit, and the issue was a group of 10 could almost effective wipe a group of 60. This was NOT intended, so they nerfed it. Because again….its a numbers game…the larger group SHOULD win. If it doesn’t…then the game is imbalanced. Rez state is fine, if anything fix skill lag first or something else that is actually important…

But those 10 would still lose to the other 40. However, they would still be able to reduce the numbers of the zerg from 40 to 30, maybe.

If you are in group that is faced with a significantly larger force and you are able to kill a few of them, that should count for something. The large zerg force shouldn’t be able to just revive everyone and continue on like nothing ever happened. It is just further empowering the zerg mentality in that as long as your zerg is always bigger, you will always win, and you will always get back to full strength when the battle is over. That is just a ridiculous bonus given to zergs when most people want (and ANet has said they want to encourage) smaller skirmishes in WvW.

To reiterate my point, we were fighting in a tower a few days ago, 20 vs their server. We’d push, kill 20, and move out again(because 60+ guys spamming AoE’s hurt). We wouldn’t lose anyone, not even downed. We’d then prepare to push again. But wait, those 20 we just killed are fully ressed, in around 5 seconds. It just becomes a stalemate until the larger groups acquires the balls to actually try and push our smaller group. We can’t do anything to their blob.

Nothing we do matters because whoever we kill, they get ressed in seconds.

However, you implement one of the ideas in this thread, and suddenly our group can push, kill 20, pull out, and repeat that until their whole force is fully dead. If their group isn’t organised enough to push our smaller group, why shouldn’t they be punished for it?

krippler.9826:

If you are in group that is faced with a significantly larger force and you are able to kill a few of them, that should count for something. The large zerg force shouldn’t be able to just revive everyone and continue on like nothing ever happened. It is just further empowering the zerg mentality in that as long as your zerg is always bigger, you will always win, and you will always get back to full strength when the battle is over. That is just a ridiculous bonus given to zergs when most people want (and ANet has said they want to encourage) smaller skirmishes in WvW.

Snowstorm.3897:

To reiterate my point, we were fighting in a tower a few days ago, 20 vs their server. We’d push, kill 20, and move out again(because 60+ guys spamming AoE’s hurt). We wouldn’t lose anyone, not even downed. We’d then prepare to push again. But wait, those 20 we just killed are fully ressed, in around 5 seconds. It just becomes a stalemate until the larger groups acquires the balls to actually try and push our smaller group. We can’t do anything to their blob.

Nothing we do matters because whoever we kill, they get ressed in seconds.

However, you implement one of the ideas in this thread, and suddenly our group can push, kill 20, pull out, and repeat that until their whole force is fully dead. If their group isn’t organised enough to push our smaller group, why shouldn’t they be punished for it?

Exactly this. The dead should be required to respawn/waypoint. The smaller groups’ efforts to thin down the zerg’s number would then actually be rewarding, even if they lost the fight after trying.
Having waypoints will become even more important in this case too.

I think in order to be revived in WvW you should have to type /please.

It’s only polite.

Catisa.6507:

hard revives should be out of combat only (WvW only).

This is a reasonable compromise….

/signed

Hard revives only out of combat is a very good way for smaller guild raids to totally destroy unorganised zergs.

Sepsis.1564:

Catisa.6507:

hard revives should be out of combat only (WvW only).

This is a reasonable compromise….

Well, once you’re dead you’re technically not in combat anyhow, so isn’t it that way already?

The resurrector cannot be in combat… therefore combat interrupts revive for x period of time

krippler.9826:

I completely agree that dead should be dead with a respawn required. If ANet wants to alleviate zerging, why do they let the winning zerg completely heal themselves before they move on?

But something else that really bugs me is that in the middle of battle, you can revive a defeated player little by little, and the opposing players can do nothing about it. If I see a half-revived player laying there, why can’t I smack the —-- out of them and put them back down?

Nothing more to say. The more we are the more i revive from death… Hey! Let’s zerg, and even if i don’t rally, someone of the 60 guys behind me will ress me in a sec!

If someone rallys, you stand up. If someone resses you, you stand up. Why the kitten kill someone then if they could revive him? No point on killing little by little, only wipes are worth it. And with a little group vs a zerg, that’s not an option.