Guild Wars 2

Tuluum.9638:

Jscull.2514:

Which brings me back to my original point, “More skillful players in general will rely less on masses (subsuming them)”

And in GW2, thats not the case for the most part.

I would only consider myself “above average,” which will automatically mean my opinion is dismissed by those who consider themselves “elite.”

Either way, I get just as much satisfaction from solo roaming as I do running in a semi-organized zerg. Meaning, no voip or anything like that, just people who are mostly able to use combo fields without overlapping, stick together, interrupt heals, etc etc.

Overall though, I fail to see how playing against other players in one arena could yield a perspective where they are somehow significantly better across the board than another arena that has more dynamics and more possibilities. The actual skills themselves are pretty much the same in function.

The biggest difference is that organizing larger and larger groups of people becomes exponentially more difficult as the numbers of players in a given group rises.

Only thing I can think is thakittens confirmation bias (from both sides), all sustained by the fact that WvW inherently has more players and the higher likelihood of coming across someone who is new.

I would say the percentage of skilled vs new is the same, overall, in both T/SPvP and WvW. It just happens on a much larger, much less insular scale in WvW, which directly leads into coming across more people who do not know what they are doing.

Someone who takes a quick glance at either S/TPvP and dubveedub will likely come to the conclusion that one is somehow less skilled than the other.

Its quite funny either way!

Im not talking about satisfaction levels or fun….fact is that if there were MORE SKILL INVOLVED in playing wvw….you would see groups of less than the 15-20+. Skilled players that run in 10+ do so because there are 50 mans running around. If skill were more apparent in daily world vs world play, there wouldn’t be giant zergs as virtually the ONLY form of player vs player combat.

It’s not compareable

tPvP players would get demolished first but i believe they could become really really good if they practice large scale guild play like Golden Horde, RG and such do…

top pvp players know all the classes and prominent builds that are used so they could make a really good setup for large scale guild groups and roll over stuff pretty easily

Jscull.2514:

Im not talking about satisfaction levels or fun….fact is that if there were MORE SKILL INVOLVED in playing wvw….you would see groups of less than the 15-20+. Skilled players that run in 10+ do so because there are 50 mans running around. If skill were more apparent in daily world vs world play, there wouldn’t be giant zergs as virtually the ONLY form of player vs player combat.

Could you explain your logic on this a bit more? It makes zero sense to me.

Ill explain how I see what you are saying. I agree that there is generally safety in numbers, and that less skilled players will be drawn to larger groups. That said, if a group of 20 “elite” players comes up a group of “50” elite players.. there is really only one way that is going to end if skill is completely equal across the board.

As a leader, it actually takes significantly more skill to properly lead more people, and it is not a linear progression. It is more difficult to get a group of 50 people of “elite” status, that can also play well as a team, than it is to get a group of 20 to do the same. Meaning, the existence of said larger groups will be less likely simply because of numbers and percentages.

So, in short, skill does not equate to group size directly. Though, I will take a wild guess that you only do small group play? If so, then it seems probable to me thakittens just bias confirmation based on faulty assumptions of observed experience in the game.

Group size and skill are not directly related, though they do have an indirect relationship. Regardless, a skilled group of 20 will always be overpowered by an equally skilled group of 50 simply because of the numbers involved. The only difference is thakittens easier to get a small group of skilled players than it is to get a large group. That, in and of itself, may lead one to believe that somehow skill is not present when a large group is playing together. It is based on a presumably false premise though.

It sounds like you propose that a large group/zerg is devoid of skill inherently, instead of as a matter of consequence and probability. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong!

In the end, I dont care that much to be honest. But, spurring these kind of conversations forward is way, way too much fun for me!

Jscull.2514:

Tenebrous.2451:

Jscull.2514:

If there was more actual personal skill involved in the majority of wvw….you would see less people relying on the amount of people they run around with. That is a simple fact. Not my opinion.

Granted there are some situations where really talented players run with bigger zergs, VERY VERY infrequently the case.

It is hard to tell individual skill in a zerg when it is subsumed in the mass of players. That does not mean there are not skilled players in a zerg.

Which brings me back to my original point, “More skillful players in general will rely less on masses (subsuming them)”

And in GW2, thats not the case for the most part.

The thing is you can’t really consistently take objectives above an unoccupied tower with small groups (5 or less). The nature of WvW tends to move people towards larger groups.

That has no bearing on skill.

My server is the NA pVp serer (MAnvil Rock) and I have seen a good number of small pvp teams running around. They are awesome in small skirmishes while you are with them, but they generally only stick around to take a camp, maybe a tower, before bolting back to the mists. I also don’t think they would be as good as some of the well-organized guilds who had great group tactics (Rekz on Ehmry Bay comes to mind) in anything larger than havoc-group size. If zerging becomes less effective…maybe.

sPvP is the same as roaming but easier. EVERYTHING in sPvP is predictable which imo makes it boring. It’s more about organization than team tactics. Also tons of WvW players play sPvP.

No joke, first time I played tournaments, the group ended up with 2 other WvW pugs who only played sPvP/tPvP for the monthly (like myself) and another player who was a dedicated sPvPer. 5th slot was random. We went to a 15 win streak and our group of lvl 10-15s was facing lvl 40+s in tournament before one of their groups finally beat us. /Cool-story-bro

But makes OP’s claim hard to believe.

This discussion seem to be mainly revolving around the question “is tPvP mentality apply to WvW” while the real question is “if tPvP experience is of any use in WvW”.

The answer to the latter question IMO is clear. Of course it does. On any scale. tPvP is much more dense in terms of micro, synergy, boon/cd control and skill interactions be it friendly or enemy ones. Is this kind of expertise of any value at larger scale? Of course it is, who would argue with that.

If you got 25 players who not only follow the commander and use their skills on the push phase efficiently, but go beyond that and manage all their skillset perfectly based on team need and battle circumstances – you have a perfect WvW team on any scale.

WvW does not teach that, meaning it doesn’t require that kind of personal skill level since “strength/safety in numbers” is, whenever you realize that or not, a big driving factor.

Of course there’s a distinction between commander/raid leader and team member skillsets. I’m talking mainly about latter one. But even former may benefit greatly from tPvP background.

Yaro.3251:

This discussion seem to be mainly revolving around the question “is tPvP mentality apply to WvW” while the real question is “if tPvP experience is of any use in WvW”.

The answer to the latter question IMO is clear. Of course it does. On any scale. tPvP is much more dense in terms of micro, synergy, boon/cd control and skill interactions be it friendly or enemy ones. Is this kind of expertise of any value at larger scale? Of course it is, who would argue with that.

If you got 25 players who not only follow the commander and use their skills on the push phase efficiently, but go beyond that and manage all their skillset perfectly based on team need and battle circumstances – you have a perfect WvW team on any scale.

WvW does not teach that, meaning it doesn’t require that kind of personal skill level since “strength/safety in numbers” is, whenever you realize that or not, a big driving factor.

Of course there’s a distinction between commander/raid leader and team member skillsets. I’m talking mainly about latter one. But even former may benefit greatly from tPvP background.

Finally a post in this thread that makes the slightest sense.
+1

@Tuluum

“Could you explain your logic on this a bit more? It makes zero sense to me.

Ill explain how I see what you are saying. I agree that there is generally safety in numbers, and that less skilled players will be drawn to larger groups. That said, if a group of 20 “elite” players comes up a group of “50” elite players.. there is really only one way that is going to end if skill is completely equal across the board.

As a leader, it actually takes significantly more skill to properly lead more people, and it is not a linear progression. It is more difficult to get a group of 50 people of “elite” status, that can also play well as a team, than it is to get a group of 20 to do the same. Meaning, the existence of said larger groups will be less likely simply because of numbers and percentages."

I appreciate the manner in your conversation and way of going about discussing it. I believe there is a HUGE disconnect between people talking about skill in leadership and personal player skill.

You’re comeback was that it takes more skill to lead a group of 20-50+ than it does small man teams. ORGANIZATIONALLY that is a decent argument. I would not want to gather 50 people and point them in the right directions. (not saying I couldnt, I wouldnt be having fun). My first point of disconnect is that you say 20-50 “elite” players grouped together….The truth of the matter is that real mmo “elite” players have not in previous mmos, and do not run in those size groups consistently. Reason why that is fact is because it takes the real challenge of maximizing their characters utility on the field and skill out of their play styles. Reliance on others around you defines your player vs player skill level. This disconnect lives in the objectives of the two forces. Zergers define their “skill level” as the communication between the 20-50+ to organize, effectiveness based off results of capturing points via numbers or siege, ability to generate some sort of points via pugs and guild groups, and how well their “commanders” do on a consistent basis. I understand zerging will never go away as it is more a human nature thing than an mmo thing. I don’t have a problem with people joining zergs. But I believe that one should graduate from zerg mentality after enough experiences in order to challenge themselves more to open field environments of player VS OTHER HUMAN BEINGS (not NPCS or capture points….). GW2 doesn’t give off the impression of too many people graduating from zerg school.

Real mmo pvp elite players define their “skill level” as mobilization, specific character builds in conjunction with group makeup (class setup), the ability to recognize scenarios immediately as to push or pull in fights, the ability to effectively (least amount of deaths IF ANY) pull from fights, focusing the CORRECT single targets to give themselves the best advantage in a fight, the ability to recognize enemy animations in order to counter said animations with their own abilities, knowledge at ANY given moment in a fight within the entire team of who has what debuffs, (conditions as their called in this game) and buffs/HP level, the ABILITY TO PAN YOUR CAMERA, timing abilities for clutch moments at the win/lose moment of a fight, positioning of the group prior to entering combat to give the greatest advantage, and the ability to recognize classes immediately as to where the greatest threat opposing in that fight lies.

Elite players in mmos play to challenge their ability using a certain class against other human being players…..Using organizational skills is definitely needed to drive a zerg around. The truth of the matter is the 4th guy in an elite 5 man will equal the capability of the 17th,18th, and 19th player in your “elite 20 man” because on a daily basis he relies on 4 other guys to kill 2,3,4x his number and not 17 other guys. You can come back with “our 20 man takes out 50-60 man zergs” and if that is the case than I would give mad props and say there is some definite talent/skill in the PARTICULAR group. That being said, 90-99% of 20 mans are not steam rolling 50-60 man zergs in this game. However there are on a daily basis 5 mans steam rolling 15-20 man groups. There is more skill that develops faster as group size decreases on a consistent basis and that has been a fact since player vs player environments were created in mmos.

I think any successful WvW guild should have their players play in s/tPVP as a guild activity just to work on cohesion, synergy, and generally learning how to fight while keeping a cool head.

That said…s/tPVP play is entirely different than WvW. The tactics really don’t overlap in any area.

tPVP teams would probably do amazing in small roaming bands, though, assuming they didn’t get run over by a zerg.

@Jscull;

I cant necessarily disagree with most of what you say. I would define “elite” players in pretty much the same way.

Really, my only point was that such a thing can exist regardless of group size, but is shaped by a few factors that both of us have mentioned. The two most important, imo, are the “safety in numbers” idea, and the difficulty in maintaining organization in larger and larger groups.

I would actually argue that an elite team of 50 is perhaps even more skilled than an elite team of 5. Even if their individual skills levels are equal, actually coordinating with that many people takes some real effort. To me, it basically turns into work. However, the possibilities of having, say, 10 mesmers with portals opens up an entire different world of play. Even if they are just used for kiting and immediately gaining terrain advantage, the larger group has more possible strategies and tactics at their disposal. Organizing and pulling all of this off is exponentially more difficult though.

So, I think what happens is players of all skill levels go towards the most feasible option for their style of play. Meaning, those who are new/lack in skill will gravitate towards large groups because it is a less frustrating opportunity to learn. They avoid small group play because they still have more to learn. Those who have honed their skills to be competent in small groups gravitate towards that because it makes individual contribution feel VASTLY more meaningful. They avoid organized large group play because there is still more to learn.

For me, the pinnacle of “elite” play comes into view when a team of 50 is able to maintain the small organizational awareness of a small group, but is able to utilize the great opportunities afforded with more players while minimizing the difficulty inherent in having that many people.

In past games, I have found the easiest way to approach it is to actually have the small teams of “x” number play as they usually do, but to slowly start to work in other small teams into the same battlefield. This still retains the small group play, with few added complications. The key is to have capable leaders of each team, and then one capable strategist at the helm of all of the small team movements (much like we see in real armed forces).

I think it is a mid-way compromise until the small teams start to adapt to having so many more strategies at their disposal, while still retaining the comfort of a familiar playstyle.

Honestly, I dont think we are really saying things that are that different. The difficulty that is innate in large group organization, as well as there being safety in numbers, means that a large group will very likely be less competent individually than a small group, but only in practice. In theory, the most difficult way to play is also the most effective and that is large, or very large, organized group play. Its probably the rarest thing to see in any game, so it is usually a safe assumption that the large group is not as organized as a smaller group. My only point of contention was that a large group is not inherently lacking in skill because of its size, its other factors that shape that perception.

Hope that made sense Thanks for the coherent and respectful conversation. Things like this arent supposed to take place on the interwebz, dontchyaknow?

Deamhan.9538:

Sil.4560:

Ken.9018:

Since most of the skillful players are in Heart of the Mists

Lost credibility there. tPvP is an entirely different game mode. I can’t begin to count how many “Champion [Title]” players I’ve stomped in battle and one on one. Let them think they’re the best though. It’ll crush their morale that much more when I flag them.

I was under the impression that the OP was being sarcastic…

Probably. Nobody would say something so stupid and actually believe it.

This is one of the better troll posts made in the GW2 forum. Kudos to you, Mr. OP.

BlackBeard.2873:

My server is the NA pVp serer (MAnvil Rock) and I have seen a good number of small pvp teams running around. They are awesome in small skirmishes while you are with them, but they generally only stick around to take a camp, maybe a tower, before bolting back to the mists. I also don’t think they would be as good as some of the well-organized guilds who had great group tactics (Rekz on Ehmry Bay comes to mind) in anything larger than havoc-group size. If zerging becomes less effective…maybe.

None of those roaming groups have tourney players in them, and none of them are any good either. Well, none that I’ve encountered yet. I’m killing them 1v3, 3v5+npcs, etc, while specced for zerging, and I’m not real good. I did run into a marauder engi on your server who was decent though.

It does make me wonder how little crossover there actually is, i.e people who play both game modes. Anvil rock has a ton of good tpvpers, but this whole week I’ve seen all of one good player, in terms of fighting other players that is. Plenty of guys who are effective at bringing numbers to bear and being where they need to be, when they need to be there. Different skillsets.

If a few of your tournament players got together and came in for a day things would get pretty interesting, but I’m not sure how willing they would be to take a backseat to the commanders who know all the wvw mechanics, and I’m not sure how many of them have properly geared 80s of their preferred class, if at all.

Junkpile.7439:

Think about guild full of dungeon masters. Those guys would roll dice IRL and peer menacingly from behind their screens of charts and tables

FTFY

real pvpers go wvw and roll a thief

Deamhan.9538:

Sil.4560:

Ken.9018:

Since most of the skillful players are in Heart of the Mists

Lost credibility there. tPvP is an entirely different game mode. I can’t begin to count how many “Champion [Title]” players I’ve stomped in battle and one on one. Let them think they’re the best though. It’ll crush their morale that much more when I flag them.

I was under the impression that the OP was being sarcastic…

The thing with WvW s that it is a sanbox, not a strict environment as tPvP. So imagine a player who sets his character up to be most effective as part of 25 players raid group that is to face enemy raids in comparable numbers/skill level. Now, please tell me if that character is in best position to face off any class in small scale/1v1 battle. They are not. You, sir (Sil), are being ignorant here.

There’s also a possibility that sPvP rank was just farmed without any real skill behind it but I assume you are not including these cases in your argument.

Mammoth.1975:

If a few of your tournament players got together and came in for a day things would get pretty interesting, but I’m not sure how willing they would be to take a backseat to the commanders who know all the wvw mechanics, and I’m not sure how many of them have properly geared 80s of their preferred class, if at all.

^^This.
+1

That’s both an explanation and a problem.

If tpvp players took their builds and tactics into wvw they would get dominated. If wvw players took their builds and tactics into tpvp they would get dominated. Those are facts. If one went to the other but adapted their build and adapted their tactics then who knows, but what I believe the OP is trying to say is that the top tpvp players are better than the top wvw players? We may never know. But some of you are saying that pvp players like to stroke their egos. Since this seems to be what is going on here, and I’ve never seen a thread solely for claiming wvw players are better than pvp players, I’m inclined to believe it.

thievery.2701:

OP is trying to say is that the top tpvp players are better than the top wvw players? We may never know.

What are you talking about? We know for sure. Top sPvP players are far better than top WvW players. The thing is, WvW as a whole goes far beyond personalities.

Given that sPVP players kitten and puppy about 2v3 already, I’d hate to see what happens when they have to deal with an 8v40. Regardless of skill, there’s a point at which a smaller group putting out literally maximum DPS possible is still outclassed by a mob of upscaleds mashing their foreheads on the trackpads on their “gaming” laptops with their cursor over the 1 button.

TBH, I think skilled Spvp players are a different caliber than skilled WvW players because S/Tpvp focus on strategies to counter other team make-up in a 5v5 situation; whereas, WvW players skill revolve around the commander/s own strategies, the tier the players are on and the amount of enemies they will encounter. IMHO, Spvp has a stale meta game pigeonholing players into cookie cutter builds for most of the conquest maps (which is fine). Also, Spvp is a great place to practice 1v1 or 1v2/3 skills but the strategies in spvp is just simple objectives, forcing the 1v2s or Rock/Paper/Scissor 1v1s on control points. WvW on the other hand offers more varies of paths for players to choose from, with their own strategies: Roaming (1-4 players), Havoc or tactic groups (5-15 players), small zerg (20-35 players) and large zerg (35+ players). These four roles in WvW can be dissecting into many different strategies that work with the players involved. I mainly do WvW, but that doesn’t mean I always want to fight in small/large zerg battles. When I am not with my guild in WvW, I roaming the borderlands most of the time fighting however I want. I theory craft and test builds that work in WvW as a whole. I am trying to prefect both my grouping and soloing skills which could be done in WvW. Also, I am not the only one that plays WvW exclusively with the same philosophy.

I think skilled Spvp players will excel at roaming and havoc teams and feel lost in zerg combat at first. Zerg combat focuses on position, AoE skills (damage, CC, Support, healing, etc) and tactical strategies (on a very micro level); whereas, spvp is more of an arena atmosphere focused more on individual skill and team composition/synergy. I think a zerg of all s/tPvper would last a day before they all rage quit do to inflated egos (but that is my option).

Furthermore, comparing Spvpers to WvWers skill is like comparing basketball players skills (spvper) to football players skills (WvWer).

Being a skilled sPvP player is not enough to be of any use in WvW.

Being a great multifaceted WvW player (like many players who have played a lot of WvW are) is not enough to be a good sPvP player.

Both give an advantage (personal skilllevel/ awareness/terrain use, diversionary tactics/group synergies) for people who “crossover” but it is not enough.

Thinking that sPvPers would be better WvW players than people who have actually played WvW for so long is very arrogant. They could probably make themselves formidable roaming opponents but there are already great parties like that out there, that would be nothing new.

silverfire.2547:

Given that sPVP players kitten and puppy about 2v3 already, I’d hate to see what happens when they have to deal with an 8v40. Regardless of skill, there’s a point at which a smaller group putting out literally maximum DPS possible is still outclassed by a mob of upscaleds mashing their foreheads on the trackpads on their “gaming” laptops with their cursor over the 1 button.

This is pretty kitten accurate

Caliban.3176:

Being a skilled sPvP player is not enough to be of any use in WvW.

I agree that it is not enough. But I would argue that it helps immensely.

Being a great multifaceted WvW player (like many players who have played a lot of WvW are) is not enough to be a good sPvP player.

Now here I would argue that WvW brings nothing new to sPvP table that it is not already promoting/teaching.

Thinking that sPvPers would be better WvW players than people who have actually played WvW for so long is very arrogant.

It is not the question of if experience in general thrumps almost anything. The question is, if tPvP experience gives any advantage to the player comparing to not having one.

They could probably make themselves formidable roaming opponents but there are already great parties like that out there, that would be nothing new.

A-a-and now you went completely bapkis, confusing mentality with experience, as I’ve mentioned above.

@tuluum

I agree man. Problem is, this game has not produced very many small skilled groups from the ground up. This game promotes Zerg to learn, and then continue Zerging through your pvp experience. Don’t graduate off the Zerg ladder to the next tier, stay here as long as you can like billy Madison. It’s sad, because people who already graduated don’t have very many people to fight competitively in the open world system.

Gw2 is literally simplified to 2 forms of play: 1) capture the flag
2) when you lose to a team, just bring more people of equal or similar skill level and you can guarantee a win

Yaro.3251:

Caliban.3176:

Being a skilled sPvP player is not enough to be of any use in WvW.

I agree that it is not enough. But I would argue that it helps immensely.

Being a great multifaceted WvW player (like many players who have played a lot of WvW are) is not enough to be a good sPvP player.

Now here I would argue that WvW brings nothing new to sPvP table that it is not already promoting/teaching.

Thinking that sPvPers would be better WvW players than people who have actually played WvW for so long is very arrogant.

It is not the question of if experience in general thrumps almost anything. The question is, if tPvP experience gives any advantage to the player comparing to not having one.

They could probably make themselves formidable roaming opponents but there are already great parties like that out there, that would be nothing new.

A-a-and now you went completely bapkis, confusing mentality with experience, as I’ve mentioned above.

I agree with your first too comments, don’t see how anyone could disagree with those.

It is not the question of if experience in general thrumps almost anything. The question is, if tPvP experience gives any advantage to the player comparing to not having one.

Having experience in different gamemodes benefits your skillevel and gives you an advantage. I would have a hard time comparing advantages between someone with tPvP experience and someone with WvW experience. Especially since there are so many aspects to WvW. In the big picture of WvW I think tPvP would offer a rather insignificant advantage.

You lost me with your last comment. I don’t know what you mean, please explain if you want me to reply to that.

All I was trying to say with that last part was that people who are used to playing very coordinated with 4 other people would have an edge in that part of WvW. However certain groups in WvW have also perfected that kind of play.

I’m having some trouble making myself clear as well. I’m very tired, sorry if it is unclear.

Tpvp community struggles to make 5 man teams a guild is out of the question. Oh and esports is not in wvw.

It’s good watching a tpvper stream wvw, when they die trying to cap a sentry it’s classic. Just gotta cap the circle bro!

Jscull.2514:

@tuluum

I agree man. Problem is, this game has not produced very many small skilled groups from the ground up. This game promotes Zerg to learn, and then continue Zerging through your pvp experience. Don’t graduate off the Zerg ladder to the next tier, stay here as long as you can like billy Madison. It’s sad, because people who already graduated don’t have very many people to fight competitively in the open world system.

Gw2 is literally simplified to 2 forms of play: 1) capture the flag
2) when you lose to a team, just bring more people of equal or similar skill level and you can guarantee a win

While I am of the mind that the game is what we, the player, make of it.. I certainly cant deny that is the case.

Before release, I was actually thinking that they were going to use WvW, or a close variant, for the Esports thing. It actually got me pretty excited, since I am quite bored of node capping at this point. I thought “Wow! Anet is really doing something different, I think they might be on to something with this! Its going to almost be like multiplayer chess!” Obviously, I found out the story was quite different and I should have done more research! Still would have bought and played it, but it was definitely a disappointment.

I used to put a lot of effort into “training” type things, but eventually, people started to respond to me with “why bother?” So, even if I view at as the “pinnacle” to have a very large, but organized group.. it isnt very feasible to say the least. Most people at this point dont see any need to organize. When they get routed by a semi-organized group, blame gets shifted everywhere.

Maybe I am just too old school for it, lol. I have hope though, whatever that might mean.

And to make it on topic, they are just two different game modes. Both will have excellent players and both will have terrible players. There is no separation between the two in WvW though, and that means you will come across ALL skill levels with more frequency.

Caliban.3176:

Being a skilled sPvP player is not enough to be of any use in WvW.

Thinking that sPvPers would be better WvW players than people who have actually played WvW for so long is very arrogant.

Lol? That is a kittened thing to say and you know it. The players in our guild are proof of it anyways, super makes for a better d/d and ghnoy made for a better guardian than most VoTF members who have been playing WvW since game launch.

End of the day, the very skill people look for to make the best combat wvw guilds are the skills spvpers practice day in day out and have already mastered. Positioning? Its done everyday in high level play, using terrain on forest or the windows on khylo, all the shadowsteps that take advantage of terrain and positioning.

Boon/condi watching? Spvpers do that way better than wvw players. In wvw you just spam all your cleanses and hope that as a group you have succeeded in cleansing everything, an spvper can do that easily but will also know when to keep their condi cleases because they can better watch when it is important to cleanse.

Reflexes? Tpvpers will almost always be faster. 2 good players in top 50 play can spike a target faster than the average 50 man raid can in WvW, in order to counter that you have to be a fast player, something that is not required in wvw because you can just hope an ally heals you or covers for you since you are all spamming random crap.

People here are talking about how WvW has so many possibilities but thats just lies. Lots of possibilities of very simplistic gameplay maybe yes. Oh wow look, im fighting a guild and here comes another guild, so dynamic! Tis the equivalent of having a 1v1 turn into a 2v1 in spvp, nothing special there. There is very little dynamic about WvW, almost every battle is the same as is every keep take and tower take.

Leading a raid is harder than strat calling for spvp? Also a lie. I am one of two commanders for VoTF and I have pug piped on at least 5 servers as well as doing it on their server comms. Leading wvw is an easy joke compared to the strats and player management I had to keep up with in top 50 play. I have never done wvw in a game before but I was more than capable of commanding in GW2 because it is so easy.

Do certain things transfer over from tpvp to wvw? Without a doubt. Battle awareness and multitasking for starters. I can notice the positioning of most enemies, their animations, reflexively dodge bursts etc etc, you dont think I can notice a huge blob approaching me in the open field? Lets try something a bit more intricate. As a tpvper I keep track of the health bars of my allies even though I am not a heal in order to kitten the pressure our team is under during a team fight and whether we should disengage or swap focus. I do this in WvW in order to determine from my parties health bars whether our raid is under pressure and if we need to regroup or not or turtle or fall back etc.

At the end of the day, tpvpers have the highest micro because the less players in your group the more each player counts. Those same tpvpers are more than capable of performing the micro functions in a raid as they are actually significantly more simplistic (spam 1, pop stability, drop a water field, all easy crap which about 70% of the wvw guilds in GW2 cant even manage).

As Yaro says, there is no doubt about the best tpvpers being better than the best wvw players. And there is no doubt about whether tpvp translates qualities into wvw. I will say that being good in a raid reflects nothing on your ability as an individual aside from your ability to be a mindless drone following a commander. Anything more is your ability to execute micro, and its already clear tpvpers are better at micro anyways.

I suspect there will be a lot of in-fighting within the guild as opposed to seeing them working as a coordinated group in WvWvW.

:)

Do people even need to care about positioning that much when current AOE has a limit of 5 targets(one of the weirdest and most stupid thing I’ve ever seen in a game)? From my very limited WWW experience all I saw was just people sticking themselves to a commander and standing in one place clumping up around him and not being afraid to get nuked down by the current 5 target AOE, fantastic tactics. With the AOE target limit people don’t need to even care about positioning. Just clump up together, spam AOEs and profit.

Jackie, you are now bringing up some exceptional players. I was just saying that being an sPvP player is not enough to be a good WvW player. (Though my first sentence was a bit harsh, that’s true)

I can give you an example of a certain Ele who thought something was wrong when he couldn’t kill the camp supervisor with the weird buff. Then there is the siege placement and the siege usage. And what camps are more important than others. How you can use NPC’s to rally.

These are all things the sPvP players can learn, but things that do not transfer over immediately from sPvP.

And yes, you are a great commander.

Boomstin.3460:

Tpvp players would just stand in the arrow cart aoe circle while complaining about op bunker ranger pets.

I was just thinking that. pvp and wvw are different beasts and are skilled differently. But some of our best players come from pvp backgrounds that have learnt the way of the WvW ninja

The whole argument is flawed right from the beginning.
You`re assuming that tpvp-ers and wvw-ers dont have the capacity to adapt.
Its like saying that, for example, if i play a lot of Gw2 i must suck at every other game.
When it comes to wvw and tpvp, a good player will still be a good player, no matter what. And if he/she will not do so great in the start, adapting quickly would not be a problem.

I guess next we`ll see from the op:
Chuck Norris vs Bruce Lee
Crocodiles vs Lions
…insert random crap here…

Yaro.3251:

The thing with WvW s that it is a sanbox, not a strict environment as tPvP. So imagine a player who sets his character up to be most effective as part of 25 players raid group that is to face enemy raids in comparable numbers/skill level. Now, please tell me if that character is in best position to face off any class in small scale/1v1 battle. They are not. You, sir (Sil), are being ignorant here.

What you are saying has little to do with actual player skill and everything to do with a very specific function of a build. Further, what does your comment have to do with the price of tea in China? I get the feeling you didn’t even understand the intent behind the post to which you responded. The ignorance is your own and I am not in the mood to be insulted by some pompous user on an internet forum today, thanks.

There’s also a possibility that sPvP rank was just farmed without any real skill behind it but I assume you are not including these cases in your argument.

I don’t care how or why they got their title, just that they die.

I can speak for both sides of the game as a Rank 22 (Working on Wolf)TPvP’er, and a large organized WvW guild.

In TPvP, everything comes into play, timing of skills/CD’s, dodging at the exact second you need to, and even knowing when or when not to heal.

In WvW, the zerg play tends to favor auto attacking through a zerg for the most part. Ofcourse theres got to be stability/CC/Heals. Even if the guilds want to get fancy they can break off into two forces to flank with. Its more group strategic based, over actual player individual skill.

BUT, if 60 TPvP’ers wanted to learn zerg WvW, and after a good amount of time, that guild would wipe any top rated/ranked WvW guild in the game, that I would bet on.

Because clearly 60 tPvP players are inherently more adaptable and better at a game mode than the people who primarily play that game mode, by virtue of their divinely skill advantage.

lulz

Maybe if the tpvp players were experienced enough and geared for wvw than they would do alright. The tactics are just so different between the two. Even the same build can play vastly differently because of the high stat totals in wvw vs tpvp.

I do feel that a 5 man premade built with a teamfight comp would dismantle the vast majority of small squads in WvW. The experience in tpvp is very valuable for roaming and small scale combat, but it doesn’t cross over well to zerg v zerg. That being said the level of communication and personal skill would likely make the tpvp players the winners given they had enough time to adapt to the wvw metagame.

Imagine how good this game would be without the forums.

if they dont have experience they will start like we did – try kitten gate. doesnt work. try ramming it – get farmed by ac – try catapult – mortared – finally treb – split up to get more supply – get rushed – onto golem rush – oil ftl. being good at something comes from training and hardly anything else and since tpvp players dont have training they would get laughed at for a few weeks untill they are on top of the WvW game which is not much like spvp at all. or the short version: your pvp skills dont matter int he face of ACs. generally in WvW an upscaled player on a superior arrow cart at the right place can stop a large amount of players from taking an objective, it matters much more then wiping some people in the field. well if you think wvw is about making points , not like farm bags or just have fun.

I’m pretty sure any decent WvW guild would be more than happy to show a team of tPvPers precisely how much their egos and 1v1 builds are worth here.

Ragnar.4257:

I’m pretty sure any decent WvW guild would be more than happy to show a team of tPvPers precisely how much their egos and 1v1 builds are worth here.

You can WvW with 1v1 builds. That’s what I do. Or I should rather say that I 1v1 with WvW builds and still get the job done.

Playing only large scale WvW will turn a person into a brainless zombie after a while and stop any improvement as an individual player, no matter how organized the action is, you have to have those small confrontations and duels in order to keep yourself “in shape”.

Many times when faced with an organized guild, there are still several weak links involved who are carried by the team and easy for an experienced player to recognize and snipe down quick. They stray away from the main group and have no answer to being focused down harder than usual and just melt.

This is what usually starts the downfall for guilds when they wipe vs random pugs, a few decent, coordinated players from the pug group recognize weakness, exploit it and cause the chain of events which leads to the guild losing the battle.

I’d say if the WvW guilds ran in 4-5 parties which also regularly played tPvP with each other, their communication and coordination would be so much better.

I wonder what all these “1V1 builds” that every1 is talking about are, considering builds are made around your team. Hence why every mesmer runs illusion of life, portal and every guardian runs sanctuary, 2 shouts (pure of voice).

Builds are made to suit your team in a 5vs5 environment. If you are that delusional to that think spvpr’s can’t come up with builds that would suit zerging then you’re just being arrogant.

And you’re referring to WvW as only being “blobvblob”, when infact most of the dedicated WvWers avoid blobs like the plague. Generally the most skilled group play you’ll see in WvW comes from groups around the 10-25 mark, not 70+. If you’re going to deliberately mis-represent my game mode as mindless-zerg-only, then I will deliberately mis-represent yours as 1v1-only, tyvm.

And I’m still utterly un-convinced that if you took the top 30 tPvPers and put them up against RG, that it would be anything other than a massacre.

Sil.4560:

Yaro.3251:

The thing with WvW s that it is a sanbox, not a strict environment as tPvP. So imagine a player who sets his character up to be most effective as part of 25 players raid group that is to face enemy raids in comparable numbers/skill level. Now, please tell me if that character is in best position to face off any class in small scale/1v1 battle. They are not. You, sir (Sil), are being ignorant here.

What you are saying has little to do with actual player skill and everything to do with a very specific function of a build.

Sure. And builds are important part. Not probably as important as skill, but still one of determining factors.

Further, what does your comment have to do with the price of tea in China? I get the feeling you didn’t even understand the intent behind the post to which you responded. The ignorance is your own and I am not in the mood to be insulted by some pompous user on an internet forum today, thanks.

I don’t usually insult anyone since everyone’s entitled t their opinion and going down the road of getting personal or name calling doesn’t bring anything valuable to the discussion. Except lulz maybe. I’m sorry for this misstep. And you are correct that I often may sound pompous, but that’s just the consequence of the way I’ve learned English.

you champion titles are worthless vs a zerg

unless all of the zerg have champion titles.

Champion X is meaningless. There’s a matchmaking system, your win rate will approach 50% once you find your rating even if you have no thumbs and no fingers on your right hand. Thus, 400 games played = champion, and 400 is not a lot. Try X of the Arena.

How is this still going? The WvW roaming meta which is somewhat comparable to sPvP but is entirely different from the zerg/zerg-busting meta. “Skill” unqualified is therefore meaningless.

But let’s say the average tPvPer is a more competitive PvPer than the average WvW player. Likely true. So all you could say is a guild of seasoned tPvPers would be above average PvPers, including in WvW. That’s not very meaningful.

Ragnar.4257:

And I’m still utterly un-convinced that if you took the top 30 tPvPers and put them up against RG, that it would be anything other than a massacre.

How can you come to that conclusion? I have already proved that this wouldnt be true. During our GvGs with RG were we went 8-5 we brought quite a few spvpers and all of them except 1 did brilliant, the 1 being a player who simply hadnt played the game in a long time but I had him come anyways.

Super even recorded his gvgs against RG and showed at the end he only had 4k wvw kills while the majority of RGs players have like 70k+. But super did amazing in those gvgs and was possibly the best d/d involved between both guilds, in fact the gameplay was so easy for him he didnt even have to use his mistform to defend himself and just used it to stomp RG members cause there was little pressure on him.

Now I doubt I can make an entire guild of tpvp players, but considering VoTF has had the most success in GvG vs them and I brought tpvp players to compete, I think your statement holds no ground and 25 of the top 50 tpvpers would crush RG quite comfortably in a GvG, I dont doubt that one at all.

Of all guilds Dius should know, Ghnoy was probably one of your best players, and the players I tpvped with from Dius on game launch were also better than the majority of WvW players I have met and probably the ones left in your guild.

Mammoth.1975:

Champion X is meaningless. There’s a matchmaking system, your win rate will approach 50% once you find your rating even if you have no thumbs and no fingers on your right hand. Thus, 400 games played = champion, and 400 is not a lot. Try X of the Arena.

x of the Arena will still lose vs a Zerg, unless the zerg is composed of 100% x of the arena