Guild Wars 2

There are entire guilds that strive for heavies….Why?

1.) All heavies get extra hitpoints.
2.) They have more resistance to attacks.
3.) They have no counter to armor…no armor traps…but there are stealth traps….
4.) These classes get huge AOE damage.
5.) They get huge crowd control…
6.) They get huge mobility.
7.) Automatic CC breaking.
8.) Fear….pulls…block…stability…stuns…can use bows…have atomic weapons….

What is the downside of a Warrior or Guardian?

Need some armor removal…movement limits…etc…way imbalanced.

Simply compare that OP thief with a heavy…trade blows….the heavy wins everytime because they do equal damage yest have double the hitpoints (straight up or via healing) AND armor.

Further in WVW you can just spam AOE and accidentally kill people…completely no skill required.

Other damage mioigation vs. armor….bubble, invis, stealth, fear etc and so on are temporary protection….armor 100% baby! All the time…no counter…can’t interupt armor…can’t CC armor… its the bestest!

Oh yes….and why this question:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/wuv/wuv/Warrior-or-Guardian-for-Commanding

because of this imbalance.

Hammers only get 200 range. Shoot them instead of standing in front of 25 people.

1. My Guardian has 16k HP. You’re first point is Moot then.
2. Armor? If so then yes. This is most MMORPGs out there.
3. Counter? Conditions. Armor reduction doesnt apply there.
4. Hardly. If a guardian is speccing damage just full burst him hes dead. Warriors lost a majority of massive damage potential in the hammer nerf and GS is way too situation to provide constant use.
5. Cant argue here, however EVERY class has some form of CC for multi-person.
6. Guardians are the 2nd slowest class in game out of combat, Taking traveler’s runes is just stupid as well. Warriors.. I cant argue. Their GS mobility is kittened coupled with Sword.
7. Every class in the game has access to “Stun Break”. And its not automatic. If you’re referring to stability.. Necro boon strip. Wells as well. Simple.
8. lol. Again.. Thief, Necro have many of these things, Couple with a ele or engi you have all. Again guard doesnt have access to Fear, Bows, Or these “Automatic” weapons you speak of.

Please learn classes and the game before playing. I wont disagree that there are ASPECTS that are COMPLETELY UNBALANCED. However many of the stuff you said is just FaceDesk worthy.

1) sure, why not, that is the difference between words “heavy” and “light”
2) see point 1 and stack toughness
3) condition damage is counter to armor if you are not aware of it, check wiki article about condition damage
4) can you specify this “huge AOE” since I don’t have any on my warrior in my tanky zerg build
5) they do gave CC and no damage whatsoever
6) to have mobility you need to invest in particular weapons/traits/skills successfully trading out damage and everything else <- this is about warriors, guardians just don’t have ANY mobility even if you ask santa
7) specify plz, having 90 second cooldown on automatic CC doesn’t count as a HUGE advantage
8) that is just bunch of words without any constructive feedback behind

Did I cover everything?

While his reasons are kind of hard to follow, he is correct.

There is a reason why Guardians and Warriors will pretty much never be turned down for a dungeon group, and why those two professions make up most of wvw zergs…

Are you talking about heavies that are solo / small group, or larger murder ball groups (tightly packed with piles of boons and cc). Don’t know what to say about the former if you’re having that much trouble besides learn to play. The latter is the equivalent of IWAY’ing…you’re only going to beat it by either:

1. Doing it better
2. Getting a way bigger blob
3. Camping well sieged structures until they are bored

counterplay to melee death balls is more wellmancers. and thats about as deep as wvw meta goes. i wish there was more to it, i really do. but basically you have 1) heavies and 2) aoe dps casters. wvw is essentially guards, warriors, necros and staff eles. everything else is bonus (mesmers, thieves) or subpar substitutions (rangers, engies).

small gang and duels are a little more interesting, with condi spammers or glass burst with multiple target drop abilities.

Stx.4857:

While his reasons are kind of hard to follow, he is correct.

There is a reason why Guardians and Warriors will pretty much never be turned down for a dungeon group, and why those two professions make up most of wvw zergs…

False. There are different reasons why they’re almost never turned down for dungeon groups.

1) False. Guardians have the lowest HP along with eles and thiefs.
2) Yes, that is what armor does. They have the most.
3) As stated before, conditions bypass armor completely.
4) I’m not sure what you are referring to. Other classes (Eles, Necros) have superior AOE.
5) Hammer Warriors are the kings of AOE cc. Guardians have pretty good hard cc, but I don’t think anyone is having sleepless nights over them.
6) Warrior with GS is one of the most mobile builds. Have you played a Guardian before? They are 2nd worse.
7) Both classes have good cc breaks. Most classes have some though. You would expect a melee class to be good at this. Guards excel at group stability, which is one of the main reasons they are so popular in WvW groups.
8) You are again listing things that one of the two classes have and making it sound like all heavies have this. Warriors have 5/6, guards have 3/6. I have no clue what this atomic weapons are.

The biggest reason why heavies are so needed in large scale WvW, is because rally mechanics are so broken in WvW and any deaths hurts the group way more than just losing a player. Heavies die less. That being said, you still need someone to do the damage and atm Eles/Necros are at the top in this. That is why most wvw groups would have these 4 classes as their core and then add in a few mesmers/thieves for specific functions that are unique to them. Rangers are just way UP in large scale WvW due to their pet getting killed too easily.

Lastly, if you are playing a thief and are losing duels to a guardian, you should have a good look at your playstyle. I would recommend you start by not just trying to “trade blows”…

As long as you can use pve skills, gear and buffs in wvw it is pointless to ask any kind of balance. Also way too much cleave and aoe (not talking about single difficult to Place/cast skills but amount of aoe skills in general), I am not even going into how broken op conditions, cc, target breaking and some other things are in many situtations when taken into wvw. (not only talking about fluffy zerg balling mind you)

Conditions against hammer train. Good luck with that. Seriously, do you people even play this game?

As long as you can use pve skills, gear and buffs in wvw it is pointless to ask any kind of balance.

PvP is just as bad if not even worse when it comes to balance. PvP gear does not magically guarantee balance.

Blind, Chill, Cripple

Skeletor.9360:

There are entire guilds that strive for heavies….Why?

1.) All heavies get extra hitpoints.
2.) They have more resistance to attacks.
3.) They have no counter to armor…no armor traps…but there are stealth traps….
4.) These classes get huge AOE damage.
5.) They get huge crowd control…
6.) They get huge mobility.
7.) Automatic CC breaking.
8.) Fear….pulls…block…stability…stuns…can use bows…have atomic weapons….

What is the downside of a Warrior or Guardian?

Need some armor removal…movement limits…etc…way imbalanced.

Simply compare that OP thief with a heavy…trade blows….the heavy wins everytime because they do equal damage yest have double the hitpoints AND armor.

Further in WVW you can just spam AOE and accidentally kill people…completely no skill required.

1. Guardians have the lowest health pool in the game (along with ele).
2. No, really?
3. And stealth traps are super used in wvw atm.
4. Guardian gets moderate aoe damage. Necromancer, Elementalist, and Engi get as much or more AoE damage (and it’s ranged).
5. Ele has a lot as well.
6. Guard has huge mobility? What?
7. ?
8. Almost none of this applies to guard.

You seem to misunderstand the point of variety. Certain classes will naturally be better suited to certain tasks. Heavies will OBVIOUSLY be better for things like zerg combat, that is the point. The problem is that warriors maintain huge mobility making them a very successful roaming class, IMO. That’s the only real imbalance left as far as WvW is concerned IMO.

The nature of WvW combat favors balling up. This is due to the 5-target AoE cap and combo-fields.

This balling helps mitigate damage, but not avoid it completely. This is why zerging favors classes that can tank damage fairly well.

AoE damage is also important, as is CC if it affects multiple targets. And here Warriors and Guardians excel again.

AoE boons and support are relevant as well and they both do well in that area too. Especially Stability is crucial (due to the former point).

The only thing Guardians and Warriors lack slightly is combo-fields and ranged damage, but that’s why Elementalists are popular as well.

Banzie.5248:

1. My Guardian has 16k HP. You’re first point is Moot then.

Moot thieves and elementalist have 11K 11/16 = So thieves get 70% of the health…point for me!

2. Armor? If so then yes. This is most MMORPGs out there.

Afraid to discuss so spins the answer…point for me!

3. Counter? Conditions. Armor reduction doesnt apply there.

These classes get condition removal, plus the conditions take down the health SLOWLY. This means the condition apply-er has to kite you….but with superior CC and a couple CC removers you can kill them far before they kill you.

Seems like a win for my arguement.

4. Hardly. If a guardian is speccing damage just full burst him hes dead. Warriors lost a majority of massive damage potential in the hammer nerf and GS is way too situation to provide constant use.

Obviously does not understand why the hammer nerf was needed. Had nothin to do with damage and everything to do with crowd control and the complete lack of CC counters for classes that are not heavies…. Greatsword warrior hits multiple targets by pointing in a general direction and 15K per target. Compared to the “damage dealing” thief…who has to position themselves…to rarely do that damage to a single target.

5. Cant argue here, however EVERY class has some form of CC for multi-person.

Course you can’t.

6. Guardians are the 2nd slowest class in game out of combat, Taking traveler’s runes is just stupid as well. Warriors.. I cant argue. Their GS mobility is kittened coupled with Sword.

So out of combat when you are traveling solo is the reason for all the pluses…..OMG! I run slowly when not in combat …when I’m not speed buffed by my zerg…LOL

7. Every class in the game has access to “Stun Break”. And its not automatic. If you’re referring to stability.. Necro boon strip. Wells as well. Simple.

Warrior has automatic shake it off.

8. lol. Again.. Thief, Necro have many of these things, Couple with a ele or engi you have all. Again guard doesnt have access to Fear, Bows, Or these “Automatic” weapons you speak of.

No they have an assorted collection of CC which are just as OP.

Again why are people asking which class Warrior or Guard as a commander….

Please learn classes and the game before playing.

LOL from a guy who made several mistakes in his response….

I wont disagree that there are ASPECTS that are COMPLETELY UNBALANCED. However many of the stuff you said is just FaceDesk worthy.

Florgknight.1589:

Hammers only get 200 range. Shoot them instead of standing in front of 25 people.

Daggers are 130….and the point was?
And when they trade range damage…which yours is less proportionally than theirs because of….ARMOR….Then what….?

Arius.7031:

Skeletor.9360:

There are entire guilds that strive for heavies….Why?

1.) All heavies get extra hitpoints.
2.) They have more resistance to attacks.
3.) They have no counter to armor…no armor traps…but there are stealth traps….
4.) These classes get huge AOE damage.
5.) They get huge crowd control…
6.) They get huge mobility.
7.) Automatic CC breaking.
8.) Fear….pulls…block…stability…stuns…can use bows…have atomic weapons….

What is the downside of a Warrior or Guardian?

Need some armor removal…movement limits…etc…way imbalanced.

Simply compare that OP thief with a heavy…trade blows….the heavy wins everytime because they do equal damage yest have double the hitpoints AND armor.

Further in WVW you can just spam AOE and accidentally kill people…completely no skill required.

1. Guardians have the lowest health pool in the game (along with ele).
2. No, really?
3. And stealth traps are super used in wvw atm.
4. Guardian gets moderate aoe damage. Necromancer, Elementalist, and Engi get as much or more AoE damage (and it’s ranged).
5. Ele has a lot as well.
6. Guard has huge mobility? What?
7. ?
8. Almost none of this applies to guard.

You seem to misunderstand the point of variety. Certain classes will naturally be better suited to certain tasks. Heavies will OBVIOUSLY be better for things like zerg combat, that is the point. The problem is that warriors maintain huge mobility making them a very successful roaming class, IMO. That’s the only real imbalance left as far as WvW is concerned IMO.

You have just essentially said Guards and Warriors are the only effective WvW classes because of the way WvW is. Thanks for the ringing endorsement! I don’t think you know what variety is …as you are saying WvW favors specific classes. I also am reading this into your response….“..and oh that other class I don’t play…nerf it!”

The downed mechanic is IMO the number one reason why heavies are so dominant. The most powerful weapon in large fights is downing someone at the right time. Heavy classes are harder to down and more forgiving of mistakes.

Things like the down state and aoe caps are mechanisms to cap the effectiveness of player skill. Most people would not want to play a game where a highly skilled 10 man could wipe a zerg of 60. Games that let experienced, skilled players completely dominate never have huge populations. You have to give the lower skilled players a way to make up for their lack of skill/experience, a way they can still ‘win’.

IMO what would be really cool is an alternate rules server where PPT is awarded to guilds. No downstate, no or significantly increased aoe limits, better scaling for healing, etc.. Take off the training wheels and let those who really want to play with sharp objects go at it.

Another thing is that FOO strategies tend to be used past the point where they are most effective. Progression makes it difficult for a guild to completely change classes and tactics and try out radically different approaches. This is unfortunate, but progression is what the masses want, so it’s what we all get.

I’m just taking a guess here but with the comment of “but there is stealth traps” is the OP a thief ?

If this is the case this just makes this thread one big punchline.

Armor is not nearly as effective as you make it out, or the biggest problem.

To many heavy defensive builds are still too effective at doing damage and conditions and that has little to do with armor.

there are other reasons why heavies, especially guards are preferred:

-boons: if you compare them to conditions, boons are almost as easily applied but there are a lot more ways to counter conditions than boons. besides well of corruption and null field, theres isnt much to strip boons in an AoE. it’s pretty much impossible to strip stuff like stability cause it’s always covered by tons of other boons.

-insane condi cleanse. when some people here say that you should use conditions against the heavies im wondering if theyre even playing the game. warrior and guard are two of the classes with the biggest amount of cleanses. add to that the broken food buffs, runes and dogged march…

-incredible tankiness while still being able to deal high amounts of (aoe-)damage.

6. Guardians are the 2nd slowest class in game out of combat, Taking traveler’s runes is just stupid as well. Warriors.. I cant argue. Their GS mobility is kittened coupled with Sword.

what? necro is objectively the worst when it comes to mobility, after that i thought comes mesmer? cause they barely have any swiftness (guard has more) and a handful of teleports/gap closers (just like guard), which would put guard on place 3, after nec and mes.

the only problem with warriors is the ridiculous mobility paired with their heavy CC

so pretty much warriors are breaking the game as everyone is suddenly running hammer warriors and im sure as heck it is not because it requires skill

same goes for necro sure lower mobility but they are the ones following in line behind warriors condition nuking the nearly perma CC/stunned groups warriors leave
wich destroys any chance to retaliate

as for mesmers they dont have swiftness but they sure as heck dont need it when you spam clones that and skills that bring you to your target or cripple/immobilize/stun it to oblivion or when you have a trait that grants you increasing movement speed per clone and any good mesmer slaps 3 clones in an instant wich basically gives mesmer 100% uptime swiftness speed.

the game as a whole needs some heavy rebalancing because we cant say nerf this or that class without buffing and nerfing some aspects on said class and other classes as well.

it is anoying how all you see is all the guilds running hammer warrs with necros behind and then the finishers behind picking up downed players.

This thread has offered some good laughs. Thanks and keep it up!

Stx.4857:

While his reasons are kind of hard to follow, he is correct.

There is a reason why Guardians and Warriors will pretty much never be turned down for a dungeon group, and why those two professions make up most of wvw zergs…

Warriors aren’t wanted for their defences. Dungeon groups want DPS.

snacktime.1082:

Things like the down state and aoe caps are mechanisms to cap the effectiveness of player skill. Most people would not want to play a game where a highly skilled 10 man could wipe a zerg of 60. Games that let experienced, skilled players completely dominate never have huge populations. You have to give the lower skilled players a way to make up for their lack of skill/experience, a way they can still ‘win’.

There are serious wvw pvp guilds that run 10-20 man groups that wipe 40-50 man zergs more often than not. While they don’t have the numbers to control the PPT, they most definitely control the PvP.

Most of OP’s points could be moved more specifically to “warriors” instead of heavy armor. Warriors have tons of flat mitigation, healing, mobility, and the highest tier healthpool. Guardians have the lowest tier health pool, low mobility (not even a signet for movement speed, just gs leap, staff 3, and a shout with a considerable cd), yet they die if they don’t preemptively have their consecrations down or their shouts up.

Garillo.1349:

snacktime.1082:

Things like the down state and aoe caps are mechanisms to cap the effectiveness of player skill. Most people would not want to play a game where a highly skilled 10 man could wipe a zerg of 60. Games that let experienced, skilled players completely dominate never have huge populations. You have to give the lower skilled players a way to make up for their lack of skill/experience, a way they can still ‘win’.

There are serious wvw pvp guilds that run 10-20 man groups that wipe 40-50 man zergs more often than not. While they don’t have the numbers to control the PPT, they most definitely control the PvP.

Most of OP’s points could be moved more specifically to “warriors” instead of heavy armor. Warriors have tons of flat mitigation, healing, mobility, and the highest tier healthpool. Guardians have the lowest tier health pool, low mobility (not even a signet for movement speed, just gs leap, staff 3, and a shout with a considerable cd), yet they die if they don’t preemptively have their consecrations down or their shouts up.

I disagree, and I’d like to be proven wrong. If the ONLY variable (no uplevels, similar buffs, all decent builds/gears) between the 10-20 vs 40-50 zerg is skill, then I’m willing to bet that the 40-50 zerg will win 100% of the time.

Yenn.9185:

Garillo.1349:

snacktime.1082:

Things like the down state and aoe caps are mechanisms to cap the effectiveness of player skill. Most people would not want to play a game where a highly skilled 10 man could wipe a zerg of 60. Games that let experienced, skilled players completely dominate never have huge populations. You have to give the lower skilled players a way to make up for their lack of skill/experience, a way they can still ‘win’.

There are serious wvw pvp guilds that run 10-20 man groups that wipe 40-50 man zergs more often than not. While they don’t have the numbers to control the PPT, they most definitely control the PvP.

Most of OP’s points could be moved more specifically to “warriors” instead of heavy armor. Warriors have tons of flat mitigation, healing, mobility, and the highest tier healthpool. Guardians have the lowest tier health pool, low mobility (not even a signet for movement speed, just gs leap, staff 3, and a shout with a considerable cd), yet they die if they don’t preemptively have their consecrations down or their shouts up.

I disagree, and I’d like to be proven wrong. If the ONLY variable (no uplevels, similar buffs, all decent builds/gears) between the 10-20 vs 40-50 zerg is skill, then I’m willing to bet that the 40-50 zerg will win 100% of the time.

Guilds such as WM have videos on youtube of 10-15 man core groups completely wiping 40-50 man zergs multiple times. They’re known for knocking all the walls and gates off of a tower and waiting for other servers to show up so they can wipe them.

funny how any aspect of this game is ruled by wars heh

I agree with the OP….

Because of the current meta in WvW, everyone reroll heavy. They are tankier, and if played well, do a good amounts of damage.

Ppl say “hum hum, play alteration”. In a zerg, condition are down very quickly because of the number of gardians( +health from signet for W).

Others say “everyone has Cc”. It’s true. But when I play engi (one class with lots of CC) I have huge cooldowns….. I can’t spam CC like W does. Oh, yes, #4 rifle is CC with fast cd, but it’s for ONE target, and I’m stun aswell.

“Use stun breaker’…… Well, when a gardien jump on me and use his kittening CC circle, using Stunbreaker won’t help me to escape and to kite him. And, Stun breaker have cooldowns too. See point above.

So far, the only real weapons to counter heavies are Blindness and Immobilized. It’s fun to watch a 10 seconds root on an heavy, and burn him to death. But one dodge at the wrong moment, and it’s over.
But A-net still have to balance more WvW to make it viable for light and especially medium armor. Right now, those class are good for roaming or debuff (necro), but aren’t at the same level for big scale fights…

I must be completely out of wvw then. That 40-50 zerg has to be really, really bad at the game.

Yenn.9185:

I must be completely out of wvw then. That 40-50 zerg has to be really, really bad at the game.

Those* in reference to being plural.

There are many, many videos of it being demonstrated. Skill and coordination > all.

The beautiful thing about GW2 is that it’s easy to be decent or good, but takes dedication to be great. And great players and groups most definitely stand out.

Rezzet.3614:

the only problem with warriors is the ridiculous mobility paired with their heavy CC

Please, tell me how to acquire 3rd weapon set, I wanna have “ridiculous mobility paired with heavy CC” too. Currently, I can have only mobility without damage and CC (GS+Sw+Wh), or much worse mobility (1/2) with some CC (GS+Hammer or Hammer+Sw+Wh).

Rednik.3809:

Rezzet.3614:

the only problem with warriors is the ridiculous mobility paired with their heavy CC

Please, tell me how to acquire 3rd weapon set, I wanna have “ridiculous mobility paired with heavy CC” too. Currently, I can have only mobility without damage and CC (GS+Sw+Wh), or much worse mobility (1/2) with some CC (GS+Hammer or Hammer+Sw+Wh).

O.O

I get that warriors dont have tons of CC and high mobility(Hammer vs Greatsword), but to say that GS lacks damage is silly. You dont need to have sw/wh for great mobility.. just GS is more than other professions have.

GS have absolutely zero group utility (basically, if you see GS warrior in zerg – he is dead weight and deserves kick) and no damage at all outside of lol-100-blades. 100 blades. In wvw. That a funny joke.

snacktime.1082:

The downed mechanic is IMO the number one reason why heavies are so dominant. The most powerful weapon in large fights is downing someone at the right time. Heavy classes are harder to down and more forgiving of mistakes.

The rally mechanic is part of it, but the biggest thing by far is boons an overall build efficiency.

Just think about what 5 guardians acting in coordination can do:

-Provide 300 stacks of might and 9k+ healing with one skill
-Provide 25 players with stability and protection (protection again with virtue)
-Provide another 9k+ healing all blasting water, maybe even blasting players at the same time
-Purge 75 conditions and provide 9k+ healing with one skill
-Imob stack 5x
-Lay down enough rings or lines to lock down a huge area
-Provide perma swiftness to whole group with new symbol mechanic on the move
-Provide all kinds of small heals from dodge rolls and orb burst
-The only AoE stun break in the game, or spec’d in radiance, be the new boon stripping machine

-

zen.6091:

snacktime.1082:

The downed mechanic is IMO the number one reason why heavies are so dominant. The most powerful weapon in large fights is downing someone at the right time. Heavy classes are harder to down and more forgiving of mistakes.

The rally mechanic is part of it, but the biggest thing by far is boons an overall build efficiency.

Just think about what 5 guardians acting in coordination can do:

-Provide 300 stacks of might and 9k+ healing with one skill
-Provide 25 players with stability and protection (protection again with virtue)
-Provide another 9k+ healing all blasting water, maybe even blasting players at the same time
-Purge 75 conditions and provide 9k+ healing with one skill
-Imob stack 5x
-Lay down enough rings or lines to lock down a huge area
-Provide perma swiftness to whole group with new symbol mechanic on the move
-Provide all kinds of small heals from dodge rolls and orb burst
-The only AoE stun break in the game, or spec’d in radiance, be the new boon stripping machine

-

Good thing all of these have counters.

….wait, what AoE stun break? …………………

WhiteAndMilky.2514:

Good thing all of these have counters.

….wait, what AoE stun break? …………………

Shielded Mind?

The only “counter” to this is stripping and your own murder ball, or much, much, much larger blob that finally wears them out. One single time in the past year since the EU guilds brought this meta over to NA have I seen a guild of similar size beat a good murder ball, melee ball, hammer train, whatever you want to call it in the field using smaller groups with extreme discipline that picked them apart.

I do realize there are other tactics in GvG, but we are talking about random encounters in WvW between guilds, or a guild vs. pugmander zerg where are many other factors that prohibit advanced, pre-planned tactics at the drop of a hat.

Skeletor.9360:

Arius.7031:

Skeletor.9360:

There are entire guilds that strive for heavies….Why?

1.) All heavies get extra hitpoints.
2.) They have more resistance to attacks.
3.) They have no counter to armor…no armor traps…but there are stealth traps….
4.) These classes get huge AOE damage.
5.) They get huge crowd control…
6.) They get huge mobility.
7.) Automatic CC breaking.
8.) Fear….pulls…block…stability…stuns…can use bows…have atomic weapons….

What is the downside of a Warrior or Guardian?

Need some armor removal…movement limits…etc…way imbalanced.

Simply compare that OP thief with a heavy…trade blows….the heavy wins everytime because they do equal damage yest have double the hitpoints AND armor.

Further in WVW you can just spam AOE and accidentally kill people…completely no skill required.

1. Guardians have the lowest health pool in the game (along with ele).
2. No, really?
3. And stealth traps are super used in wvw atm.
4. Guardian gets moderate aoe damage. Necromancer, Elementalist, and Engi get as much or more AoE damage (and it’s ranged).
5. Ele has a lot as well.
6. Guard has huge mobility? What?
7. ?
8. Almost none of this applies to guard.

You seem to misunderstand the point of variety. Certain classes will naturally be better suited to certain tasks. Heavies will OBVIOUSLY be better for things like zerg combat, that is the point. The problem is that warriors maintain huge mobility making them a very successful roaming class, IMO. That’s the only real imbalance left as far as WvW is concerned IMO.

You have just essentially said Guards and Warriors are the only effective WvW classes because of the way WvW is. Thanks for the ringing endorsement! I don’t think you know what variety is …as you are saying WvW favors specific classes. I also am reading this into your response….“..and oh that other class I don’t play…nerf it!”

Firstly, WvW isn’t only zerg combat, which is exactly what I said they’re best at. Guardians are not well suited to roaming, for example, due to low mobility/general lack of ability in a duel setting. Guards are only okay at havoc because of general support capabilities/tanking, and even there are generally not as good as other classes. Thieves/Mesmers dominate roaming, and havoc in specific is not dominated by wars/guards.

Secondly, zergs also generally require other classes in addition to war/guard. War/guard are the main stay, but every good zerg will also run Mesmer (ports/veils), Ele (water fields/aoe CC and DPS), and Necromancer (AoE DPS/Boon stripping).

The issue isn’t that certain classes are too good in WvW necessarily (though I will agree that Wars are a bit too good all around), but instead that certain classes just aren’t very useful in general in WvW. Ranger is the go to example here. But, most classes have their place in the current meta.

Skeletor.9360:

Banzie.5248:

1. My Guardian has 16k HP. You’re first point is Moot then.

Moot thieves and elementalist have 11K 11/16 = So thieves get 70% of the health…point for me!

No, no point for you and not moot. Guardians, Thieves and Eles start with exactly the same HP (10805). To get to that 16k, the guard had to trait and gear to get that 5k Vitality. You have chosen to rather spec in damage (I am thinking you run mostly zerker gear), while that guard has sacrificed a lot of damage in order to be tanky.

From your statements I am deducing that you are a glass canon thief that is unhappy about the fact that he is dying in zerg fights. All classes can’t be good at all forms of gameplay. Large Scale WvW is not your classes’ strong suite, you are making it worse for yourself by bringing the wrong build.

Rednik.3809:

Rezzet.3614:

the only problem with warriors is the ridiculous mobility paired with their heavy CC

Please, tell me how to acquire 3rd weapon set, I wanna have “ridiculous mobility paired with heavy CC” too. Currently, I can have only mobility without damage and CC (GS+Sw+Wh), or much worse mobility (1/2) with some CC (GS+Hammer or Hammer+Sw+Wh).

WHAT THERES ACTUAL GS WARRIORS AROUND STILL!?

in all seriousness mobility comes from the trait that reduces impair effects by 33% and the movement skills remove impairing effects traits such as Sword’s untraited 8s(6s traited) leap wich Cripple sword auto atatck cripples and cleaves too wich makes it a CC condi and direct damage weapon specially if you land the burst

so thats what warrs do nowadays dive in with hammer run back with sword dive back in with hammer rinse and repeat

Rezzet.3614:

so thats what warrs do nowadays dive in with hammer run back with sword dive back in with hammer rinse and repeat

More like dive, get CC-ed, pop CD to get out, dive, CC-ed, pop CD, dive, CC-ed no more CD, dead, res plz.
And this is in standard bunker spec, if you want to do damage – go from first part of sequence above directly to last one.

zen.6091:

snacktime.1082:

The downed mechanic is IMO the number one reason why heavies are so dominant. The most powerful weapon in large fights is downing someone at the right time. Heavy classes are harder to down and more forgiving of mistakes.

The rally mechanic is part of it, but the biggest thing by far is boons an overall build efficiency.

Just think about what 5 guardians acting in coordination can do:

-Provide 300 stacks of might and 9k+ healing with one skill
-Provide 25 players with stability and protection (protection again with virtue)
-Provide another 9k+ healing all blasting water, maybe even blasting players at the same time
-Purge 75 conditions and provide 9k+ healing with one skill
-Imob stack 5x
-Lay down enough rings or lines to lock down a huge area
-Provide perma swiftness to whole group with new symbol mechanic on the move
-Provide all kinds of small heals from dodge rolls and orb burst
-The only AoE stun break in the game, or spec’d in radiance, be the new boon stripping machine

-

Can you please clarify how you get the following:
-Provide 300 stacks of might and 9k+ healing with one skill
-Purge 75 conditions and provide 9k+ healing with one skill

Its also worth pointing out that to get:
“Provide another 9k+ healing all blasting water, maybe even blasting players at the same time” you would need 5 hammer guards with 2500 healing power each. (Blast = 1.3k + 0.2hp). This is not possible. They would also do non-existent damage, so any setup like this would be less than ideal.

Lastly:
“The only AoE stun break in the game, or spec’d in radiance, be the new boon stripping machine”. Stability > stun break IMO, so very few guards spec for this. Regardless, you could also rather trait for stability instead of the stun break. The boon stripping is nice, but removing 1 boon per 10secs on a single target is hardly game changing. I haven’t tested this, but I am pretty sure it is single target.

I do agree with you that guardians are currently very strong in WvW group play, due to all of the support they can provide. Being very tanky at the same time, makes them an easy pick for groups. All things considered, an ideal large group setup should have more guards than any other class. They can however not really function on their own and Warriors, Eles and Necros are also very important. If this was a schoolyard team picking, it would go something like this:
Guard > Warrior > Ele > Necro > Mesmer > Thief > Engi. Ranger would be asked to please leave…

Guardior. The one class dev’s play.

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

Guardior. The one class dev’s play.

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT

Moh Jay.7240:

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

Guardior. The one class dev’s play.

PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT

The funny part is most play medium and light classes.

WhiteAndMilky.2514:

….wait, what AoE stun break? …………………

check on vitruves XII

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

Guardior. The one class dev’s play.

Best post of the year hahah 10/10 would read again.

Rednik.3809:

Rezzet.3614:

so thats what warrs do nowadays dive in with hammer run back with sword dive back in with hammer rinse and repeat

More like dive, get CC-ed, pop CD to get out, dive, CC-ed, pop CD, dive, CC-ed no more CD, dead, res plz.
And this is in standard bunker spec, if you want to do damage – go from first part of sequence above directly to last one.

you forget to mention that your getting CCd by other warriors thou. Really warrior is the most forgiving class to play in wvw I see you have other classes in your sig so I would hope you know this already.

ah yes guardians are a very slow class… ok.

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