Guild Wars 2

I know this has been discussed many times before, but it is time to make a change. The current model is NOT working. Let’s look at the match-ups again this week.

In N/A, there are 8 tiers. In SEVEN of the tiers, the match is a blow out (defined as the winning server ahead by at least 30k). THe situation becomes much worse when you compare the difference in scores between the 1st place server and third.

Only ONE of the tiers has an even match (tier 6). What fun is that for the other 7 tiers? Its not.

Now the only argument against the winner moves up, loser moves down format is that it will create uneven match-ups. Well, guess what? What is the situation we are in today. Look at the projected matchups for next week. Of the eight servers, there will only be 2 new matchups next week. That means for at least FIVE of the tiers, we will have another week of blow outs against the same opponents. Why even play?

The ability to match up 3 servers evenly is just not possible in any format. At least with the winner moves up, loser moves down format, we will get new opponents each week. If the matches are going to be uneven anyway, at least keep it interesting with new match-ups.

I know if you don’t think too far into it, it seems like a good idea, but its really not. It would create far more unbalanced matchups than currently exist. There are several much longer explanations to this but you will have to search the forums to find them.

i’ve never seen a strong argument against it.

just some baseless rhetoric, “what ifs,” and copy/paste responses of those.

the best i’ve found was made by a fellow in a similar thread who pointed out that while it may be better than the current system for many or most of the tiers. it would possibly periodically ruin the one or two good matchups that do occur here and there.

I’ve never seen any strong argument for it either, just some QQ about its broken now so who cares if it breaks more.

here is a thread that goes over all of it.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Instead-of-Reviewing-the-Math-lets-Remove-it/page/3#post1434324

proponents argue that careful examination shows the common reaction, stating “it would lead to imbalanced matchups,” is an invalid argument.

opponents argue that “it would lead to imbalanced matchups.”

winner up loser down would be brilliant, gandara looking at their 3rd week with riverside and they good fight at start and most boring thing ever for last 3 days, only thing that keeps me playing GW2 is WvW because the pve is one of worst pve in a game out there (gona be some hate after that comment… leave it out becuase i dont care) and boring matchup 3rd week in a row OMG please stop with this kak

fivekiller.1432:

i’ve never seen a strong argument against it.

just some baseless rhetoric, “what ifs,” and copy/paste responses of those.

the best i’ve found was made by a fellow in a similar thread who pointed out that while it may be better than the current system for many or most of the tiers. it would possibly periodically ruin the one or two good matchups that do occur here and there.

The strongest argument against it is the second placed server who is not able to win the Tier will always focus down the third to avoid losing a tier, and there is no workaround this.

for example, Desolation now is in 2nd place and cannot beat Vizunah at the moment, but they are out main target, if the rankings change, this will complete switch to us focusing down only Elona to survive in Tier 1.

I absolutely hate this idea. There is a better way to promote movement but I ain’t posting it again, look it up in one of the last 50 threads that the ops idea has been suggested.

There really aren’t good arguments against this model. Is it the best model? Probably not. It is better than the current model? Definitely.

Here’s to another week of getting blown out by the same servers! And people wonder why do many players hang out in the eb jp.

style.6173:

There really aren’t good arguments against this model. Is it the best model? Probably not. It is better than the current model? Definitely.

Here’s to another week of getting blown out by the same servers! And people wonder why do many players hang out in the eb jp.

i dont understand why people think this is a good idea. do people not have the ability to extrapolate future match ups if they switched to this method?

the BEST case scenario is you would have imbalanced match ups every other week, then the matches between will be the same match ups you have now, which isnt balanced to begin with.

this method ONLY works if the servers in different tiers are approximately of the same population. meaning it might work well in T1-2, but every other tier’s population differs too greatly, the server that moves down from the upper tier will be guaranteed to stomp the match, and if they dont, they it means they would have moved down a tier anyway with the current system.

Hmm, this might work. But requires more detail in to it.

1
2
3

If 3 wins, it becomes 2. And eventually 1. Then going to another tier, while losers go down.

Eventually servers will find which tier they can stay the longest or go down/up depending on their server’s wvw capacity.

wads.5730:

i dont understand why people think this is a good idea. do people not have the ability to extrapolate future match ups if they switched to this method?

http://mos.millenium.org/matchups#NA

Here is what it would look like if it were implemented and switched right now with the current scores.

[t1]
Jade Quarry
Sanctum of Rall
Blackgate

[t2]
Sea of Sorrows
Kaening
Fort Aspenwood

[t3]
Tarnished Coast
Dragon Brand
Yak’s Bend

[t4]
Maguuma
Crystal Desert
Ehmry Bay

[t5]
Stormbluff Isle
Devona’s Rest
Anvil Rock

[t6]
Isle of Janthir
Borliss Pass
Darkhaven

[t7]
Northern Shiverpeaks
Henge of Denravi
Sorrow’s Furnace

[t8]
Gates of Madness
Ferguson’s Crossing
Eredon Terrace

Okay… now make projections for the next several months based on the current performance trends between the tiers.

Who would be fighting who the week after? The week after that? How balanced would those match ups be compared to now?

This new system would have the blue teams perpetually stuck while a much larger server comes down every other week while at the same time a much weaker server comes up. This will result in 1 week where the Green server completely dominates, which would make the Red server drop back down and the Green server go back up.

You think its better to have every other week a complete blowout? Blue and Red will have very little motivation to make a showing every other week. 50% of the matches from this point on barring a significant population shift.

Is that seriously a good idea? The matches may be “stale” now but they are much more balanced than they would be under this system.

I’m not boosting the idea of win up, loose down… but it certainly looks more attractive to me as a T8 player than the current model. With SF needing about 100 points to advance to T7. The past 4 weeks on average they’re going at average 34 points. That means another 3 weeks of imbalance vs SF. and 3 weeks is best case scenario here… could be a month, could be 2.
so the word “balanced” should be used very sparingly when it comes to T8 US and T9 EU. I’m not sure if the 3rd place T7 server would steam roll FC and ET like we’ve been degraded to with Devonas and then Kaineng (and now SF), but just to be “hanging in there” for 6 months is not as balanced as you might think.
so whether it’s a random pick, winnder up looser down, current calculation, revised calculation, server merge, forced account shuffle… I don’t really care, but fighting and badly loosing the same server week in week out, month in month out is not balance. It gets old, players loose interest and the snowball get’s smaller…

Geko, Which tier are you talking about?

I don’t wish to make projections for several months. The current system will yield roughly the same results over the course of months as winner up loser down will so i’m not sure its entirely relevant.

As far as how balanced those matchups will be?

the answer in my personal opinion: not very balanced at all.

Once again though, the WvW game mode itself is not capable of balanced matches. So as far as finding balanced matches goes there is not going to be a matching system capable of doing that.

I will just agree to disagree on your assumption that every other week will be a worse week than we are currently seeing for the majority of servers. I’ve seen no evidence this is the case.

I am on a server where the current match is over-it was over after 2 days.The arguments for change have been aired but the options seem to be playing the same servers week after week as they are basically the same level or facing overwhelming odds and the match virtually ending in a couple of days.

Perhaps we could have a league system, games drawn before a season starts.3 points for first,2 for second,1 for third and calculated on a daily basis. The resets would remain at 1 week.

There would be 21 points max points per week and every day would be important as the slate would be wiped clean.

The possibilities of 2 divisions,promotion/relegation and cup matches could also be considered.

It seems to be the chosen method in football etc.

fivekiller.1432:

wads.5730:

i dont understand why people think this is a good idea. do people not have the ability to extrapolate future match ups if they switched to this method?

http://mos.millenium.org/matchups#NA

Here is what it would look like if it were implemented and switched right now with the current scores.

[t1]
Jade Quarry
Sanctum of Rall
Blackgate

[t2]
Sea of Sorrows
Kaening
Fort Aspenwood

[t3]
Tarnished Coast
Dragon Brand
Yak’s Bend

[t4]
Maguuma
Crystal Desert
Ehmry Bay

[t5]
Stormbluff Isle
Devona’s Rest
Anvil Rock

[t6]
Isle of Janthir
Borliss Pass
Darkhaven

[t7]
Northern Shiverpeaks
Henge of Denravi
Sorrow’s Furnace

[t8]
Gates of Madness
Ferguson’s Crossing
Eredon Terrace

i can’t speak for lower tiers, but T3-4 will be stomps, then the week after, you will have the same match ups we have now. nothing changes. you have stomps every other week in T3-4.

I discussed this at length in another topic I started. No one has offered a single iota to counter the advantage of quick moves of Winner moves Up, Loser moves Down.

Right now, as it is pretty clear, the match ups in the NA are pitiful at least, not just looking to be another week of blowouts for the mass majority of the worlds, it is blowouts caused by a LACK of change, as opposed to being caused by change.

Some people claim that moving will cause blowouts, but if you look at the last 6 weeks of match ups, that is simply not true. When worlds moved, Unless they were Superstars like Kaineng and Magumma (Which got massive influx) they most of the time took close places in their tiers they moved too.

The only argument that anyone has put on the table to date is “Change is bad, m’kay!”

And personally, as the OP said, while even if it makes for Unbalanced matches, that would not be any different then the unbalanced match ups we have right now, so we may as well toss some variety into the mix to keep things moving.

thing is, assume that balance is a non-issue – due to server change = pay; so it is already not balanced.

What’s wrong with 1st place moving up and 3rd place moving down? It’s only 1 tier.

Advantages:

1. No stagnation in ratings. Gives a fresh new match up every week. It prevents green team from months after months of feasting and saves red team from months after months of famine. Did you ever look at N/A Charts? It’s green dominating 70-80% of the time. Same boring match-ups week after week after week. Red teams demoralized.

2. Fairness. Give red teams a chance of winning a fight and teach green teams except the #1 server a thing or too about bullying. It won’t be that bad of a stomp considering you’re only 1 tiers apart. It also saves falling servers like what happened to ET and HoD who endured falling from tier 1 to 7-8 longer than supposed to. What’s worst ET still gets stomp in tier 8 due to the same old failure in the ratings system. The big gulf they put on “Bottom Tiers” combined with their math formula don’t make any sense except trying to turn the bottom 2 servers extinct.

There are no evidence that there will be a stomp because with the current system only Tier 6 isn’t a stomp. The rest are minor stomps (only red team gets stomped hardest) and major stomps (both red and blue gets flattened). They should also make the game more dynamic in terms of gaining points but not diminish too much the value you get from owning stuff. One that’s actually underdog friendly and something that divides the zerglings by giving it multiple tasks, events and challenges (That mixes both pvp and pve elements more or less). This should occur randomly in different zones and times just so zergs will get confused which to prioritize first like how orbs of power give some action and purpose to the 3 borderlands.

style.6173:

I know this has been discussed many times before, but it is time to make a change. The current model is NOT working. Let’s look at the match-ups again this week.

In N/A, there are 8 tiers. In SEVEN of the tiers, the match is a blow out (defined as the winning server ahead by at least 30k). THe situation becomes much worse when you compare the difference in scores between the 1st place server and third.

Only ONE of the tiers has an even match (tier 6). What fun is that for the other 7 tiers? Its not.

You know what would be a very good mix, would be IF a blowout was required to cause a shift, without needing to play complex math or need endless change.

Simple – If a world destroys (Causes a blowout) it’s tier, it moves up, if it gets stomped, it moves down. Otherwise, things stay.

Basically, use the Winner – Up, Looser – Down method, but requiring a say a 10% Lead/Loss to Win or Lose.

And then swapping the matches to be by the day, as opposed to the week, that way, it would keep the wheels spinning and get worlds closer together faster.

Most of the tiers look pretty evenly matched to me, with the exception perhaps of SBI and JQ still filtering down a bit.

I would like to play against new servers occasionally. The problem with the system you suggest as has been noted above is that you would really would have wins of well over 100000 points which really is a blowout and demoralising for the players involved.

Anet almost did the modification to the Glicko system for this week which would have made movement between tiers happen more often (so Sorrow’s Furnace quicker to move out of T8, for example, if they have big wins). Shame they didn’t follow through.

Oh, and with current system I reckon T1 and T2 aren’t changing for at least a month if scoring remain much as it is now. BG/K are too close.

The arbitrary choice of 30k being a “blowout” seems like a bad choice as well. While that definition would put T2 as a blowout, this week has been anything but a blowout – probably one of the best matchups I’ve experienced.

Actinotus.6410:

Most of the tiers look pretty evenly matched to me, with the exception perhaps of SBI and JQ still filtering down a bit.

Really? Things look evenly matched to you? Lets have a look at the numbers then, humm shall we.

Tier1:
Jade Quarry owns this, nuff said.

Tier 2:
Blackgate – 231
Kaineng – 192
Tarnished Coast – 140

That is near a 40K difference between 1st and 2nd, and a 90K Difference between Blackgate and Tarnished Coast.

Tier 3:
Fort Aspenwood – 230
Dragonbrand – 194
Maguuma – 140

Another 90K spread with a 40K Disparity between 1st and 2nd.

Tier4:
Yak’ Bend -247
Crystal Desert – 182
Stormbluff Isle – 138

Gosh, it got WORSE, at Tier 4, with a 110K Spread, and a 65K Difference between 1st and 2nd.

Tier 5:
Ehmry Bay – 302
Devona’s Rest – 131
Isle of janthir – 109

WOW that’s even worse then ANY tier above it, with a catastrophic near a 200K Spread this sever, and a staggering 170K Between First and Second

Tier 7:
Darkhaven – 236
Hedge Denvrrai – 165
Gate of Madness – 158

Would you look at that, it’s only a 80K blowout, but it’s coupled with a very sweet demoralizing 70K jump from between 1st and 2nd.

Tier 8:
Sorrows Furnace – 330
Ferguson’s Crossing – 130
Eredon Terrace – 109

Gosh, look at that 220K spread, with a soul crushing 200K between 1st and 2nd.

7 out of 8 total tiers being steamrolling lop sided matches is “looks pretty evenly matched” to you?

Where do people get the idea that this system should be anything other then scrapped when this is it’s result?

Ungood.3054:

Really? Things look evenly matched to you? Lets have a look at the numbers then, humm shall we.

Tier 2:
Blackgate – 231
Kaineng – 192
Tarnished Coast – 140

That is near a 40K difference between 1st and 2nd, and a 90K Difference between Blackgate and Tarnished Coast.

This has been a great matchup for me on Tarnished Coast. Great fights everywhere I turn. I would much rather play in a tier where I have competitive battles and lose the final score than to play in a tier where the final scores were nearly even, but the battles were PvDoor because of timezone differences or whatever.

I’d also rather face the 4th and 5th best servers, if I’m number 6, than the 8th and 10th.

I understand that other servers may not be as satisfied as I am, so I don’t presume to speak for you. But, judging by out community forum, a lot of people on TC are energized about the current matchup and look forward to in continuing.

Also, I think Kaineng and Blackgate very much enjoy the cookies we serve at our yakwalks.

Ungood.3054:

Where do people get the idea that this system should be anything other then scrapped when this is it’s result?

Because the result would be much worse much more often in a WULD system.

Blame yourselves for this,
The playerbase as a whole stacked the upper servers so severely that the closest the game can get (right now) to balanced matches is by essentially fighting the same servers every week.

Servers are not even remotely competitive with each other.
There are likely only one or two other servers IN THE ENTIRE GAME that would be on par with whatever server you’re currently on. Which means if you mix up the matches at all, they’re going to be very lopsided.

People keep arguing for this idiotic “Winner up, loser down” system without thinking about what it would actually do.
Stagnant matches are the remedy to blowouts every week right now.

You cannot have diverse matchups and balanced matchups at the same time with the server populations varying so wildly. It is not possible. Changing the math behind the ratings would fix nothing and just tie up the work time a dev should be spending on areas of the game they can actually improve right now.

EnRohbi.2187:

Ungood.3054:

Where do people get the idea that this system should be anything other then scrapped when this is it’s result?

Because the result would be much worse much more often in a WULD system.

Can you support this or is just off the wall baseless speculation?

If you can support this I ask you to do so, if you can’t… well… then you won’t be able to supply my request.

Ungood.3054:

EnRohbi.2187:

Ungood.3054:

Where do people get the idea that this system should be anything other then scrapped when this is it’s result?

Because the result would be much worse much more often in a WULD system.

Can you support this or is just off the wall baseless speculation?

If you can support this I ask you to do so, if you can’t… well… then you won’t be able to supply my request.

From being on a server that has both freefallen through tiers and climbed up tiers somewhat rapidly, I can tell you that the differences in skill/coverage/effectively between many of the tiers is pretty massive.

A tier 2 server cannot drop down to tier 3 and have a competitive match. They will win in tier 3 without very much doubt at all. Likewise none of the tier 3 servers can go up to tier 2 and have a competitive match (Except maybe FA, but that is an entirely different discussion and they just came back from tier 2 after having come in a significantly last place).

This is something that echos between most tiers.
If a tier 3 server dropped to tier 4, they would dominate tier 4.

What a WULD system would provide is a system where just about every week in every tier is a blowout, because there would always be a server either from the tier below you or the tier above you really unbalancing the match.

And this doesnt even touch on this situation: (I’m gonna use the current servers in these positions as examples only)
Yak’s Bend (tier 4) wins and moves to tier 3.
Tarnished Coast (tier 2) loses and moves down to tier 3.
Dragonbrand comes in second in tier 3 and doesn’t move.

How competitive do you think Yak’s Bend would be able to be against Tarnished Coast? Than’s a tier 4 server vs. a tier 2 server. And DB stuck in the middle not being evenly matched with either.

There are definitely better alternatives to the glicko system, but WULD is definitely not it for the game we have.

I further would argue that it is not the right time to adjust the maths at all.
I’ve said before, if not in this thread than in other similar threads, that the population and wvw coverage imbalance between servers needs to be addressed before the math is changed. The top 2 tiers are too stacked and the bottom 4 tiers need way more people in wvw.

There just aren’t enough combinations of equal servers that wvw can be anything other than stagnant matches every week until things balance out more.

^^ I disagree with your FA comments. They came in only 17,000 less than TC in tier 2. That is way better than the current tier 2 matchups.

The system itself isn’t fundamentally flawed. The attitude of many players towards winning in WvW is, hence the months of bracket stacking and the insane panic over paid transfers making prolonged losses expensive to avoid.

Ungood.3054:

Actinotus.6410:

Most of the tiers look pretty evenly matched to me, with the exception perhaps of SBI and JQ still filtering down a bit.

Really? Things look evenly matched to you? Lets have a look at the numbers then, humm shall we.

Tier1:
Jade Quarry owns this, nuff said.

Tier 2:
Blackgate – 231
Kaineng – 192
Tarnished Coast – 140

That is near a 40K difference between 1st and 2nd, and a 90K Difference between Blackgate and Tarnished Coast.

Tier 3:
Fort Aspenwood – 230
Dragonbrand – 194
Maguuma – 140

Another 90K spread with a 40K Disparity between 1st and 2nd.

Tier4:
Yak’ Bend -247
Crystal Desert – 182
Stormbluff Isle – 138

Gosh, it got WORSE, at Tier 4, with a 110K Spread, and a 65K Difference between 1st and 2nd.

Tier 5:
Ehmry Bay – 302
Devona’s Rest – 131
Isle of janthir – 109

WOW that’s even worse then ANY tier above it, with a catastrophic near a 200K Spread this sever, and a staggering 170K Between First and Second

Tier 7:
Darkhaven – 236
Hedge Denvrrai – 165
Gate of Madness – 158

Would you look at that, it’s only a 80K blowout, but it’s coupled with a very sweet demoralizing 70K jump from between 1st and 2nd.

Tier 8:
Sorrows Furnace – 330
Ferguson’s Crossing – 130
Eredon Terrace – 109

Gosh, look at that 220K spread, with a soul crushing 200K between 1st and 2nd.

7 out of 8 total tiers being steamrolling lop sided matches is “looks pretty evenly matched” to you?

Where do people get the idea that this system should be anything other then scrapped when this is it’s result?

100% agree with your message. As I mentioned in my original message, there is NO WAY to get 3 evenly matched servers together on a week by week basis. In that case, it is way better to keep the match-ups dynamic so that servers at least can face new opponents. No one wants to get blown out by the same server multiple weeks in a row

Dhampyr.2104:

The arbitrary choice of 30k being a “blowout” seems like a bad choice as well. While that definition would put T2 as a blowout, this week has been anything but a blowout – probably one of the best matchups I’ve experienced.

Ungood did a better job showing the differences between servers. As for T2, I’m not sure how you consider this score even

Blackgate 234k
Kaineng 199k
TC 143k

Also, keep in mind this is week 1 of the match-up. Will scores like that still be fun 3 or more weeks in a row?

Sergo.2867:

Ungood.3054:

Really? Things look evenly matched to you? Lets have a look at the numbers then, humm shall we.

Tier 2:
Blackgate – 231
Kaineng – 192
Tarnished Coast – 140

That is near a 40K difference between 1st and 2nd, and a 90K Difference between Blackgate and Tarnished Coast.

This has been a great matchup for me on Tarnished Coast. Great fights everywhere I turn. I would much rather play in a tier where I have competitive battles and lose the final score than to play in a tier where the final scores were nearly even, but the battles were PvDoor because of timezone differences or whatever.

I’d also rather face the 4th and 5th best servers, if I’m number 6, than the 8th and 10th.

I understand that other servers may not be as satisfied as I am, so I don’t presume to speak for you. But, judging by out community forum, a lot of people on TC are energized about the current matchup and look forward to in continuing.

Also, I think Kaineng and Blackgate very much enjoy the cookies we serve at our yakwalks.

This^^^

I don’t really care about the final score as long as the battles are fun. We don’t lose for lack of skill but because of coverage differences. All of the battles we have had this week have been fun and engaging. It would not be fun at all switching with FA and end up dominating a tier for a week and then moving back up. Yeah it would be nice to win but in a tight match but there is no real way to even that out as long as they allow nightcapping. Which I don’t have a problem with. I have accepted that that is how it is and just try to have fun.

EnRohbi.2187:

Ungood.3054:

EnRohbi.2187:

Ungood.3054:

Where do people get the idea that this system should be anything other then scrapped when this is it’s result?

Because the result would be much worse much more often in a WULD system.

Can you support this or is just off the wall baseless speculation?

If you can support this I ask you to do so, if you can’t… well… then you won’t be able to supply my request.

From being on a server that has both freefallen through tiers and climbed up tiers somewhat rapidly, I can tell you that the differences in skill/coverage/effectively between many of the tiers is pretty massive.

A tier 2 server cannot drop down to tier 3 and have a competitive match. They will win in tier 3 without very much doubt at all. Likewise none of the tier 3 servers can go up to tier 2 and have a competitive match (Except maybe FA, but that is an entirely different discussion and they just came back from tier 2 after having come in a significantly last place).

Your personal observations are noted, but they are also wrong.

I’ll post this again, and again, if that is what it takes.

Ungood.3054:

Ok. Lets look at the real number then.

Week 3
Dragonbrand – Moved UP from T4 to T3 – Took 2nd place.
Magumma – Moved UP from T5 to T4 and Destroys.
Kaineng – Moves UP from T6 toT5 and Destroys it.
Borlis Pass – Moves Down from T5 to T6, Took a close 2nd

(Added Note:

4 Moves – 2 Blow outs. 2 Even Matches.

Equally that week-
Sanctum Rail – Which had NOT moved – Steamrolls Tier2
Fort Aspenwood – Which had NOT moved – Stomps Tier 3
Sorrows Furnace – Which had NOT moved – Steamrolls Tier 8

3 Blow outs from Tiers that did not move.

Week 4
Magumma – Moves UP from T4 to T3 – takes Tight 3rd.
Kaineng – Moves UP from T5 to T4 – Destroys it.
Crystal Desert – moves Down from T3 to T4, takes a Tight 3rd.
Isle of Janthir – Moves Down from T4 to T5 takes 3rd

Highlights: (AKA: Blowouts from the NOT Moving Tiers)
Sanctum Rail – Destroys Tier 2 – Again
Fort Ashwood – Destroys Tier 3 – Again
Ehmry Bay – Destroys Tier 5 – Again (crushing Isle of Janthir that moved down from Tier 4)
Darkhaven stomps Tier 7 – Again
Sorrows Furnace – Destroys Tier 8 – Again

Week 5
Sanctum Rail – Moves UP from T2 to T1 – takes a tight 3rd place – did better then Blackgate.
Blackgate – Moves DOWN to from T1 to T2 – Takes take 1st by far LESS a magrin then Santum rail did.
Fort Aspen – moves UP from T3 to T2 – takes a tight 3rd – vastly outpreforms Stormbluiffs last few weeks
Kainenge – Moves UP from T4 to T3 – we know how this story ends.
StormBluff Isle – Moves Down from T2 to T4 – takes a tight 3rd.

Highlights:
Ehmry Bay – lays the beat down on Tier 5 – 3 weeks going.
Darkhaven – owns Tier 7 – 3 weeks going now
Sorrows Furnace – Destroys Tier 8 – 3 weeks going now

Week 6 - Current Week
Kainenge – Moved UP from T3 to T2 – looking at 2nd
Fort Aspenwood – Moved Down from T2 to T3 – looking at 1st

Highlights:
Ehmry Bay – is looking all set up to Stomp Tier 5 – for a Full Month in a Row now.
Darkhaven – yah, Looks like T7 is all set up to conclude a – full month of losing to these guys
Sorrows Furnace – has a nice lead in T8 as expected again – to blow out the month.

So. While I am sure you have your views on it, the numbers don’t lie. This is the reality for the last month and it VERY clear that the myth of blowouts and coverage and all that jazz is just that.. a myth.

Ungood.3054:

EnRohbi.2187:

Ungood.3054:

EnRohbi.2187:

Ungood.3054:

Where do people get the idea that this system should be anything other then scrapped when this is it’s result?

Because the result would be much worse much more often in a WULD system.

Can you support this or is just off the wall baseless speculation?

If you can support this I ask you to do so, if you can’t… well… then you won’t be able to supply my request.

From being on a server that has both freefallen through tiers and climbed up tiers somewhat rapidly, I can tell you that the differences in skill/coverage/effectively between many of the tiers is pretty massive.

A tier 2 server cannot drop down to tier 3 and have a competitive match. They will win in tier 3 without very much doubt at all. Likewise none of the tier 3 servers can go up to tier 2 and have a competitive match (Except maybe FA, but that is an entirely different discussion and they just came back from tier 2 after having come in a significantly last place).

Your personal observations are noted, but they are also wrong.

I’ll post this again, and again, if that is what it takes.

Ungood.3054:

Ok. Lets look at the real number then.

Week 3
Dragonbrand – Moved UP from T4 to T3 – Took 2nd place.
Magumma – Moved UP from T5 to T4 and Destroys.
Kaineng – Moves UP from T6 toT5 and Destroys it.
Borlis Pass – Moves Down from T5 to T6, Took a close 2nd

(Added Note:

4 Moves – 2 Blow outs. 2 Even Matches.

Equally that week-
Sanctum Rail – Which had NOT moved – Steamrolls Tier2
Fort Aspenwood – Which had NOT moved – Stomps Tier 3
Sorrows Furnace – Which had NOT moved – Steamrolls Tier 8

3 Blow outs from Tiers that did not move.

Week 4
Magumma – Moves UP from T4 to T3 – takes Tight 3rd.
Kaineng – Moves UP from T5 to T4 – Destroys it.
Crystal Desert – moves Down from T3 to T4, takes a Tight 3rd.
Isle of Janthir – Moves Down from T4 to T5 takes 3rd

Highlights: (AKA: Blowouts from the NOT Moving Tiers)
Sanctum Rail – Destroys Tier 2 – Again
Fort Ashwood – Destroys Tier 3 – Again
Ehmry Bay – Destroys Tier 5 – Again (crushing Isle of Janthir that moved down from Tier 4)
Darkhaven stomps Tier 7 – Again
Sorrows Furnace – Destroys Tier 8 – Again

Week 5
Sanctum Rail – Moves UP from T2 to T1 – takes a tight 3rd place – did better then Blackgate.
Blackgate – Moves DOWN to from T1 to T2 – Takes take 1st by far LESS a magrin then Santum rail did.
Fort Aspen – moves UP from T3 to T2 – takes a tight 3rd – vastly outpreforms Stormbluiffs last few weeks
Kainenge – Moves UP from T4 to T3 – we know how this story ends.
StormBluff Isle – Moves Down from T2 to T4 – takes a tight 3rd.

Highlights:
Ehmry Bay – lays the beat down on Tier 5 – 3 weeks going.
Darkhaven – owns Tier 7 – 3 weeks going now
Sorrows Furnace – Destroys Tier 8 – 3 weeks going now

Week 6 - Current Week
Kainenge – Moved UP from T3 to T2 – looking at 2nd
Fort Aspenwood – Moved Down from T2 to T3 – looking at 1st

Highlights:
Ehmry Bay – is looking all set up to Stomp Tier 5 – for a Full Month in a Row now.
Darkhaven – yah, Looks like T7 is all set up to conclude a – full month of losing to these guys
Sorrows Furnace – has a nice lead in T8 as expected again – to blow out the month.

So. While I am sure you have your views on it, the numbers don’t lie. This is the reality for the last month and it VERY clear that the myth of blowouts and coverage and all that jazz is just that.. a myth.

Your numbers take into account only final scores and,
Much like the glicko system itself,
Do not take transfers into account in your data.

FA stomped without moving in tier 3; correct. But they also assimilated most of Isle of Janthir that week.
Kaineng spiked through just about every tier in the game because of their transfers.
Dragonbrand received a moderate amount of transfers the week before we hit tier 3. And we came in second between FA (A server that had just received far more transfers from higher ranked servers than us) and CD (A server that was bleeding guilds the entire match and got weaker all week).

Give us the “reality” in another month after transfers have settled and try to make the same argument, using final scores.

I’ll give you a hint: It won’t be applicable.

Sergo.2867:

This has been a great matchup for me on Tarnished Coast. Great fights everywhere I turn.

I would imagine, and it great to hear that you have having wonderful fights.

Did you guys realize that over the course of the last month you have totally changed all your opppnets. (Tarnished Coast)

Have a Look.
This week -
You faced – Blackgate and Kaineng
3rd Place – yah you got served at 145.

last week – Week 5 –
You faced – Blackgate and Fort Aspenwood
2nd place – You scored 179

Week 4 –
You faced – Santum Rail and Stormbluff.
Took 2nd – with a score of 111

Week 3 –
You faced – Santum Rail and Stormbluff
Took 2nd – With a Score of 174

Week 2 -
You faced – Santum Rail and Stormbluff
Took 2nd – With a score of 186

You know what I noticed. You your server was doing progressively worse from week 2 to week 4, facing the same opponent that crushed you, week in and week out.

So while maybe you can say you were having fun, it’s pretty clear your server as a whole was not.

Also notice – Week 5, new fight, new worlds, you scored a Staggering 179 Points, a far jump from the 111 of the week before, even if you took 2nd again.

At this point it’s pretty safe to assume that new worlds to face brought new vitality to the fight. You did better against Kaineng and Blackgate (which had come down from Tier 1) then you were doing against Sanctum rail by the end of your 3rd week.

So spare me this “Oh love of the fight” line, your server was giving up, and the numbers showed it, New faces brought new vitality and you fought again. That is what the numbers show.

So yah. Tarnished Coast and Stormbluff Isle, are great example sof how this system not only works but also due to maintaining unbalanced matches crushes a worlds spirit to even go out on the field anymore.

By Week 3 against Sanctum Rail, Stormbluff scored a 42, of what was once a 168 when they first met, you can see they just gave up.

Does that mean they don’t want to fight? hardly, they scored a 152 the following week upon Transfer away from Santum Rail, still taking 3rd, but showing much more fight.

So yah. Numbers don’t lie. This system is bad for everyone. Tarnished Coast, was just lucky to get new blood to fight thanks to Kaineng’s rising, as you can see by the continual decline in your performance numbers, you were well on your way to succumbing to being demoralized by being locked against an Oppont you never should have been facing, and eventually you would have just lost the will to even keep trying, or the people to make a diffidence as they jumped ship. Which is what I theorize happened to Stormbluff, they took a population crash thanks to messed up system that locked people into feeling dead ended in blowout tiers, where they can’t win.

But hey, Maybe you were enjoying the decent, and losing, your sever as a whole was not, and the numbers prove that.

It wont work in the lower Tiers of EU. just look at Underworld, they move down 1 tier and have going towards 3x the next servers score.

http://mos.millenium.org/matchups#EU

While moving up a tier wouldn’t mean going any higher so it would be 1 week of slaughtering the lower tier then a week of fighting a much harder battle until dropping down again next time

You are so wrong on so many levels. TC /SBI did not give up, there were massive server transfers that gave SoR a huge advantage. SBI lost most of thier server to transfers. And TC gained a few/lost a few.

We far from gave up. If anything we have increased our numbers and have continued to fight against the odds. I have not seen a drop in numbers on TC in WvW. Maybe we just arent demoralized by losing to overwhelming odds, but take up arms as the underdog.

And pigeonhold 2nd place into 2nd place permanently?

Force servers into overmatched fights?

Force servers to fight vastly greater numbers?

Remove an incentive to fight for position?

No thanks.

Ruprect.7260:

You are so wrong on so many levels. TC /SBI did not give up, there were massive server transfers that gave SoR a huge advantage. SBI lost most of thier server to transfers. And TC gained a few/lost a few.

We far from gave up.

I am sure you fought your best, but the truth is, TC was doing progressively worse against SR, with each passing week. That is the irrefutable fact here.

And I don’t mean to be rude by this, as I am sure it makes for great table talk, The theory behind “why” you were doing worse, is just window dressing. The only thing that matters really is that you were doing worse, as each week went by that you were trapped in a curb-stomp matchup.

The other truth is, it’s a malfunctioning or just out-rightly bad system that would put you into a curb-stomp for 3 weeks straight.

We far from gave up. If anything we have increased our numbers and have continued to fight against the odds. I have not seen a drop in numbers on TC in WvW. Maybe we just arent demoralized by losing to overwhelming odds, but take up arms as the underdog.

Well, the numbers show you you went from 176 to 111, that’s a 65K drop on your 3rd week losing against SR, compared to a 10K drop from your second week losing.

I am sure you fought well, and, you’re the lucky one’s. Your tier changed thank to kaineng’s move up.

Tier 7, Darkhaven has been winning and gate of madness and HedgeD have been progressively doing worse each passing week, and it’s been going a month now for them.

That is not the fault of the worlds, the players, or their efforts, that is the fault of a system that is LOCKING teams against each other in dead end losing situations.

That system needs to go away.

No, our tier is the most balanced tier in the game, we would like to keep it that way. This should absolutely NOT be implemented, Anet kittened up and left free transfers go on way to long, they are responsible for this not the servers so they need to figure out a way to fix it without hurting the tiers more then they already have.

style.6173:

No one wants to get blown out by the same server multiple weeks in a row

This is the real problem.

This is why the Glicko system needs to go. I mean if the EU servers are singing praise and doing great, they can keep the Glicko System, but as far as the NA servers go, the system is a total fail.

the EU and NA can use different systems and the world won’t end, really, it won’t.

Ungood.3054

I am sure you fought your best, but the truth is, TC was doing progressively worse against SR, with each passing week. That is the irrefutable fact here.

And I don’t mean to be rude by this, as I am sure it makes for great table talk, The theory behind “why” you were doing worse, is just window dressing. The only thing that matters really is that you were doing worse, as each week went by that you were trapped in a curb-stomp matchup.

The other truth is, it’s a malfunctioning or just out-rightly bad system that would put you into a curb-stomp for 3 weeks straight.

We far from gave up. If anything we have increased our numbers and have continued to fight against the odds. I have not seen a drop in numbers on TC in WvW. Maybe we just arent demoralized by losing to overwhelming odds, but take up arms as the underdog.

Well, the numbers show you you went from 176 to 111, that’s a 65K drop on your 3rd week losing against SR, compared to a 10K drop from your second week losing.

I personally wound’t be patting myself on the back over that kind of drop in numbers, but that is just me.

However, you’re the lucky one’s. Your tier changed thank to kaineng’s move up.

Tier 7, Darkhaven has been winning and gate of madness and HedgeD have been progressively doing worse each passing week, and it’s been going a month now for them.

That is not the fault of the worlds, the players, or their efforts, that is the fault of a system that is LOCKING teams against each other in dead end losing situations.

That system needs to go away.

3 weeks of free transfers. That is the progression you see. I think we need to give this a month to see where everyone goes now that transfers are over. If it is still the same way then maybe Anet needs to look into it, but what you are suggesting will be worse.

Do you think DB and YB would be so excited to be facing TC instead of FA that everyone would come out of the woodwork. NO! They would just get an even worse beating. How is that anymore fun.

All this would do is breed even more bad blood between servers.

Ruprect.7260:

3 weeks of free transfers.

You defend a system that could not account for that? really?

That is the progression you see. I think we need to give this a month to see where everyone goes now that transfers are over. If it is still the same way then maybe Anet needs to look into it, but what you are suggesting will be worse.

You propose a no less then a month of curb stomps and bad matches and gawk at a loser down – winner up system that would not give more then a week of a bad match up to any server.

Really, this is what comes to defend the Glicko system, this is what comes to champion a system that has curb-stomps that have lasted a month straight.

Do you think DB and YB would be so excited to be facing TC instead of FA that everyone would come out of the woodwork.

Oh, without question YES

Look at what happened to TC when SR moved up, they give a much better fight even tho they came in 3rd, as opposed to 2nd.

They would just get an even worse beating. How is that anymore fun.

All this would do is breed even more bad blood between servers.

No to be rude, but, You are assuming too much, and none of it based on facts, in fact, a lot of seems to be in spite of the facts.

Anyway. Yah. here is to Kaineng, and Blackgate (Which seem pretty evenly matched) stomping TC for the next month. I Do so hope you enjoy it.

I’ll be watching your numbers. Smile

Ungood.3054:

Ruprect.7260:

3 weeks of free transfers.

You defend a system that could not account for that? really?

That is the progression you see. I think we need to give this a month to see where everyone goes now that transfers are over. If it is still the same way then maybe Anet needs to look into it, but what you are suggesting will be worse.

You propose a no less then a month of curb stomps and bad matches and gawk at a loser up – winner down system that would not give more then a week of a bad match up to any server.

Really, this is what comes to defend the Glicko system, this is what comes to champion a system that has curb-stomps that have lasted a month straight.

Do you think DB and YB would be so excited to be facing TC instead of FA that everyone would come out of the woodwork.

Oh, without question YES

They would just get an even worse beating. How is that anymore fun.

All this would do is breed even more bad blood between servers.

No to be rude, but, You are assuming too much, and none of it based on facts.

I am not defending the system, I just don’t see how your proposed system would work.

Every week would be an even worse curb stomp with your system. With very few exceptions. I am defenitely not assuming, TC was stomping T3 for how long agains FA/YB for how many weeks?

Ruprect.7260:

Ungood.3054:

Ruprect.7260:

3 weeks of free transfers.

You defend a system that could not account for that? really?

That is the progression you see. I think we need to give this a month to see where everyone goes now that transfers are over. If it is still the same way then maybe Anet needs to look into it, but what you are suggesting will be worse.

You propose a no less then a month of curb stomps and bad matches and gawk at a loser up – winner down system that would not give more then a week of a bad match up to any server.

Really, this is what comes to defend the Glicko system, this is what comes to champion a system that has curb-stomps that have lasted a month straight.

Do you think DB and YB would be so excited to be facing TC instead of FA that everyone would come out of the woodwork.

Oh, without question YES

They would just get an even worse beating. How is that anymore fun.

All this would do is breed even more bad blood between servers.

No to be rude, but, You are assuming too much, and none of it based on facts.

I am not defending the system, I just don’t see how your proposed system would work.

Every week would be an even worse curb stomp with your system. With very few exceptions. I am defenitely not assuming, TC was stomping T3 for how long agains FA/YB for how many weeks?

The people in favour of WULD don’t seem to realize that it would be far worse than glicko. Stagnant matches are not a problem to be fixed when the solution is “complete and utter imbalance in every tier every week”.

Each tier, with the except of tier 1 and tier 8, would comprise of a server from the tier below them, a server from that tier, and a server from the tier above them.
The top ranked server being from TWO tiers above that of the bottom ranked server.
In every tier.

Ungood.3054:

Sergo.2867:

This has been a great matchup for me on Tarnished Coast. Great fights everywhere I turn.

I would imagine, and it great to hear that you have having wonderful fights.

Did you guys realize that over the course of the last month you have totally changed all your opppnets. (Tarnished Coast)

Have a Look.
This week -
You faced – Blackgate and Kaineng
3rd Place – yah you got served at 145.

last week – Week 5 –
You faced – Blackgate and Fort Aspenwood
2nd place – You scored 179

Week 4 –
You faced – Santum Rail and Stormbluff.
Took 2nd – with a score of 111

Week 3 –
You faced – Santum Rail and Stormbluff
Took 2nd – With a Score of 174

Week 2 -
You faced – Santum Rail and Stormbluff
Took 2nd – With a score of 186

You know what I noticed. You your server was doing progressively worse from week 2 to week 4, facing the same opponent that crushed you, week in and week out.

So while maybe you can say you were having fun, it’s pretty clear your server as a whole was not.

Also notice – Week 5, new fight, new worlds, you scored a Staggering 179 Points, a far jump from the 111 of the week before, even if you took 2nd again.

At this point it’s pretty safe to assume that new worlds to face brought new vitality to the fight. You did better against Kaineng and Blackgate (which had come down from Tier 1) then you were doing against Sanctum rail by the end of your 3rd week.

This explains what really happened to TC:
http://mos.millenium.org/matchups/evolution/na

Week 2 was against SBI, a server that had a mass exodus and is still sliding. SoR realized that SBI was weak and wiped SBI before turning their attention to TC. That’s why TC had less and less points from Week 2-4. SoR>TC when there wasn’t a third server to attack SoR. SoR got an influx of people to improve their coverage to push them from T2 to T1, going from 5th place to 2nd place. SoR went from 3rd to 12th and is still falling.

Week 5 was against BG, a consistent T2 server and FC, which until a recent influx from IoJ was bottom T3. BG stomped the weaker FA and kept TC in check. TC didn’t get better, the weaker opponent in FA was the easier server to beat and BG did what they were supposed to do, beat the server that was weaker so that they could then focus on a 1v1 against TC. In this matchup BG>TC>FA. BG is topT2/bottom T1 server, TC is a solid T2 server (pre Kaineg) and FA is top T3 server.

This is what your WULD would turn into. Green server wiping red server and then beating blue server. Blue server would also pick on red server and try to hold off green server. In the end it will be one server stomping (Green), one server holding on (Blue) until the red server was wiped and one server getting pushed back to their spawn point (Red).

Your point total analysis is flawed because of the one of the major flaws in WvW. Once a weaker server is wiped from a map , especially their own BL, they have a much more difficult task to just regain what they lost and usually just give up on trying to take anything from that map. You need to be better to defend paper walls than against fortified and if you were better you wouldn’t have been wiped from the map in the first place.

This then leads to a 1v1 against the other server who really needs the third server to take some of the pressure off. Again, the 2nd server gets pushed off the map.

This is why you are seeing so many lopsided scores. With the exception of PvD, once the map is out of balance, it stays out of balance.

Ruprect.7260:

Every week would be an even worse curb stomp with your system.

Why do I post fact if no one bothers to look at them?

Why do we bother with numbers if no one is going to read them?

I disproved this fallacy, this myth you cling to is just that, a myth, a fallacy, that the numbers I have shown have disproved time and time again.

This belief that moving out of tier is bad is backed up by nothing more then the weights and merits of old wives and their tales.

If you can show me how it will result in blows out, with cold hard numbers, I’ll look at them, but lets be real here, I am not going to wait for that to arrive in the mail, sort to speak.

Ungood.3054:

Ruprect.7260:

Every week would be an even worse curb stomp with your system.

Why do I post fact if no one bothers to look at them?

Why do we bother with numbers if no one is going to read them?

I disproved this fallacy, this myth you cling to is just that, a myth, a fallacy, that the numbers I have shown have disproved time and time again.

This belief that moving out of tier is bad is backed up by nothing more then the weights and merits of old wives and their tales.

If you can show me how it will result in blows out, with cold hard numbers, I’ll look at them, but lets be real here, I am not going to wait for that to arrive in the mail, sort to speak.

I’ve already told you why we ignore your numbers.
Your numbers have the same flaw that glicko does; they do not take transfers into account.

Furthermore.
Your numbers are not proof that WULD system would be better than glicko, they are only proof that there is a problem with Glicko.
Which, as I have said before, I don’t think anyone particularly disagrees with.

Hmm.

I think the “move up/down” per ranking (not per tier) isn’t a bad idea. It would reduce some of the raw volatility of the “winner up / loser down” system.

Either way, the general benefit of a more volatile system is that you’d have more variety.