Guild Wars 2

Truth be told it either happens: a lot more than most would think, or a lot less…Just depends on the type of people in the matchup, the bad blood if any, etc.

I tend to think that it does not happen all that much, just isolated cases/people.

We have had people transfer or have alts on other servers, more to see how life really is on that side of the fence, and usually to my knowledge these people have been fairly open about being there.

We have also had the same in terms of people from our opposition coming over, to get a judge of us first-hand, but we have also had some come over and legitimately try to “spy”, and even had some not transfer at all but just guest and join guilds to whatever end they saw fit at the time.

At the end of the day I do not type anything in chat without assuming it is being read by anyone on my team or the other….Truth be told I could care less, and unless it is some type of “covert operation” (IE: golem rush, etc) then there isn’t much that I think the enemy can realistically do to stop you if you go about it properly.

So in that sense, I kind of get a nice giggle knowing that people are quite possibly paying to come over to our server for virtually nothing…I would also like to know how many of them stay after they get here lol…

Tallis.5607:

On TC, we have reported persons over and over and over for sabotaging, such as building useless siege in EB, wasting supplies in keeps and taking golems from our keep and jump them off a cliff to destroy them, one by one.

We have sent screenshots, testimonies, videos…

ANet never did anything. Nothing. None. Nada.

I wish you all the best in your effort to make ANet do somthing about spies, when they don’t even do something about proven saboteurs.

This ^ should absolutely be bannable. It just sucks, because there is NOTHING that can be done to stop them. At least in other MMO’s if you see this behavior you can group kick them, but WvW isn’t set up to allow that…..sadly. >:(

Thor

lordkrall.7241:

Darek.1836:

Here’s what you’re missing.
If there was a way to counter spies on your own server I think I’d be fine with it, but ATM they cant die because you can’t attack them, and they can’t be forced to leave. It’s not hard to understand at all and I’m wondering if you even have an argument anymore.

There are ways to counter them.
A rather good way is to not shout out in map-chat where you are going with your zerg for one (many leaders tends to use the /say channel for that.)

Sure the spy can still see the tag, but it is quite easy to confuse them by running back and forth a bit and taking weird ways to the goal, and a scout can still get the very same information by simply following the zerg.
Do you think we should ban scouts as well?

@Lordkrall, you are reading what you want of the rules, and ignoring what you don’t want to see. What part of this allows room for spying:

“This also includes disrupting other people’s game experience by not actively participating in matches in good faith”

A spy is NOT “actively participating in matches in good faith” and is most definitely “disrupting other people’s game experience”. A scout, on the other hand, is doing exactly what a scout should be doing, which is following and reporting on enemy activity to HELP THEIR TEAM. A spy is someone who is on your team that is using chat, etc. to report what’s going on FOR THE OTHER TEAM. You don’t know who they are, you can’t kill them…….this is plainly NOT “actively participating in matches in good faith”.

If Anet ever decides to enforce these rules, all of you who spy are going to be in for a rude awakening…..

-Thor

Thorson.9218:

@Lordkrall, you are reading what you want of the rules, and ignoring what you don’t want to see. What part of this allows room for spying:

“This also includes disrupting other people’s game experience by not actively participating in matches in good faith”

A spy is NOT “actively participating in matches in good faith” and is most definitely “disrupting other people’s game experience”. A scout, on the other hand, is doing exactly what a scout should be doing, which is following and reporting on enemy activity to HELP THEIR TEAM. A spy is someone who is on your team that is using chat, etc. to report what’s going on FOR THE OTHER TEAM. You don’t know who they are, you can’t kill them…….this is plainly NOT “actively participating in matches in good faith”.

If Anet ever decides to enforce these rules, all of you who spy are going to be in for a rude awakening…..

-Thor

That does of course depend on how the spy works.
It is quite possible for a spy to actively participating in the match without disrupting people’s game experience. A good spy actually would make sure to do just that, since some commanders, at least on my server, uses the /say channel to talk about plans and spies that simply sits around in spawn would miss this information.

A good spy does after all work for both sides, directly by helping server X with fighting and indirectly by helping server Y (the spies homeserver) with intel.

Another thing to think about is HOW would it in anyway be possible for ArenaNet to decide who is a spy and who is not?
Unless they are stupid enough to use the ingame chats to give information getting proofs is completely impossible.

Spying is a form of griefing and therefore covered by the game rules, in my opinion.

Unfortunately, enforcing this is pretty much impossible so its down to each server to counter it the best way they can think of.

Accounts used for forums and voice comms are not easily linked to game accounts and the chance for misdirection is high. ArenaNet or any other game provider will not (can not) take the risk they would accidently ban legitimately playing players and potentially get themselves in hot water – the media would have a field day with this.

Short of someone coming onto the official forums and using their game account to admit they’ve been doing this kind of griefing, ArenaNet have nothing they can use as an admission of guilt.

And nobody is stupid enough to do that, right?

You can’t prove spying and TS/Mumble/Vent, obviously are 3rd party programs. If someone is really dedicated enough to transfer to another server or have a second account there, there’s no way to prove their intention. That’s just going to be their contribution to the cause.

Sabotage, on the other hand IS bannable. This was already officially stated in other threads (too lazy to find).

Maybe they can introduce some /voteban feature? Say maybe if 20 people on the wvw map vote to ban a certain individual, that person will be kicked from the wvw map and not able to enter for a certain period of time?

Marquiz.7625:

Maybe they can introduce some /voteban feature? Say maybe if 20 people on the wvw map vote to ban a certain individual, that person will be kicked from the wvw map and not able to enter for a certain period of time?

I am not sure this would be a good idea. A guild could actually try to vote another commander off this way and it would be too easy to use for griefing.

Ruprect.7260:

Marquiz.7625:

Maybe they can introduce some /voteban feature? Say maybe if 20 people on the wvw map vote to ban a certain individual, that person will be kicked from the wvw map and not able to enter for a certain period of time?

I am not sure this would be a good idea. A guild could actually try to vote another commander off this way and it would be too easy to use for griefing.

Exactly what I was thinking.

lordkrall.7241:

Thorson.9218:

@Lordkrall, you are reading what you want of the rules, and ignoring what you don’t want to see. What part of this allows room for spying:

“This also includes disrupting other people’s game experience by not actively participating in matches in good faith”

A spy is NOT “actively participating in matches in good faith” and is most definitely “disrupting other people’s game experience”. A scout, on the other hand, is doing exactly what a scout should be doing, which is following and reporting on enemy activity to HELP THEIR TEAM. A spy is someone who is on your team that is using chat, etc. to report what’s going on FOR THE OTHER TEAM. You don’t know who they are, you can’t kill them…….this is plainly NOT “actively participating in matches in good faith”.

If Anet ever decides to enforce these rules, all of you who spy are going to be in for a rude awakening…..

-Thor

That does of course depend on how the spy works.
It is quite possible for a spy to actively participating in the match without disrupting people’s game experience. A good spy actually would make sure to do just that, since some commanders, at least on my server, uses the /say channel to talk about plans and spies that simply sits around in spawn would miss this information.

A good spy does after all work for both sides, directly by helping server X with fighting and indirectly by helping server Y (the spies homeserver) with intel.

Another thing to think about is HOW would it in anyway be possible for ArenaNet to decide who is a spy and who is not?
Unless they are stupid enough to use the ingame chats to give information getting proofs is completely impossible.

Spying by it’s vary nature would disrupt other people’s game experience, because the spy is actually playing for the other team, thereby taking a slot on the server that could be taken by a bona fide team member. This was MUCH more of an issue when there were WvW queues (hence why the rule states “leeching”, because people would log in and just run around, filling up slots to prevent players for that team from getting in), but it’s still the same dynamic.

So…..at least now we’ve moved from “spying is OK” to an acknowledgement that spying is indeed against the rules, and now we’re down to “how would one prove a person is a spy”. :-) And you’re right, it would be incredibly difficult to prove, assuming the spy was smart enough to not just stand around (or run and hide) during fights and actually made a valid effort to defeat the other team. But then Anet never subscribed to the “incredibly difficult to prove” philosophy……. ;-)

-Thor

Ruprect.7260:

lordkrall.7241:

Ruprect.7260:

Personally I think the palyers should have control of this and anyone caught spying gets the stocks at spawn in the BL and everyone gets to throw rotten fruit at them just before their account is erased.

No I am not a spy. I am however fully aware that it is a very valid tactic and I accept that it will be used both by my and the enemies sides.
WvW is supposed to be a war after all, in wars there are spies.

Going by the logic that spying should be bannable would also require scouting to be bannable since they are doing more or less the same thing, but without having access to the chat and following the zerg instead of reading where it is.

Spying is hardly a valid tactic. I like the stocks idea.

And your logic is seriously flawed. If that’s what passes for logic I can see why some people make the crazy statements they do.

What is the flaw in that compare situations irl you’d kill a scout as fast as a dpy irl why not make banning the same

I would say spying, misinformation and sabotage is a valid part of any war game where parties play against each other. What I don’t like is that it is not possible to take action on individuals doing so. What I would like to see is that you could somehow tag some one as a spy (and when tagged enough) sending them to some sort of lock up. Preventing them from doing anything in WvW. I know this is to simplistic and prone to grieving but I think it would add to the experience.

lordkrall.7241:

urzen.7096:

There isn’t one. Which has nothing to do with war.

And yet this part of the game emulates war, therefore nothing should be against spying (which it isnt).
You were the one bringing up rules and being punished, which is quite pointless since said rules does not exist.

The point was there CAN be a rule, because this is a game, not reality.

What i find works best, is simply talk to the guild the spy is a part of.
If that guild is trying to be a respected WvW guild, than they won’t like the negative attention.

If it’ a loner, or a guild that doesn’t care… than there is little to nothing you can do.
And to be honest: Anet can’t have well defined controlable player actions that define if someone is a spy or not.
It would involve going through ALl communication of that player and reading between the lines.
A game like this can not do this. If it can’t be easily detectable and provable, than it can’ t be dealt with, i’m afraid.

Kimbald.2697:

And to be honest: Anet can’t have well defined controlable player actions that define if someone is a spy or not.

And why should they. Spying is a valid tactic, unlike griefing it doesn’t exploit game mechanics.

Preacher.9018:

>spying

Spying was part of metagame, still is to a degree, and is entirely normal.

It’s morons like this that ruin the game.

They justify cheating anyway they can.

They are dirty players.

Spies are for people who resort on other people’s skill for their lack of knowledge.

Spies are those who have no answer of their own but use other servers morals against them.

Spies are self righteous cheaters that have nothing better to do then try to be like those who they are spying on.

Spies are wannabes.

Spies are dirty and will always be shunned by real gamers.

Spies are like people who use aa or hacks and justify it by saying, everyone does it.

Judging by your post history, you are a very angry person… that’s not good for your heart dude, unless you’re the hulk.

Your definitions of cheating are odd and defy language spying is immoral yes cheating no

I’m not even sure how you can claim that’s not cheating, but sabotage isn’t. They are the exact same thing… impersonating somebody to gain advantage?

Not sure how you reach the crazy conclusion that scouting is similar to it at all, either…

One is like breaking into the other teams locker room and stealing a playbook.

The other is the team statistician noticing they just ran this play and for these reasons often run this play next…

I think unless the rules for a game say otherwise, you can assume impersonating a member of the other team to sabotage or steal from them is cheating, FYI! Just for future reference guys…

Zosk.5609:

Not sure how you reach the crazy conclusion that scouting is similar to it at all, either…

Totally agree, there is a difference between:

Scouts: Small zerg around 15 at south bay outer gate with 1 ram up, gate 90%.

Spy: The small group at south bay is a distraction, the rest of them are currently building 8 golems at BL WP and going to hit hills south gate in the next few mins.

Nothing similar at all.

I heard tc lost two of its bl keeps a few days ago due to spies giving wrong information o.o

Wow, game goes to this point, /bow to u all for ur dedications! :P

Preacher.9018:

>spyingSpying was part of metagame, still is to a degree, and is entirely normal.

Cheaters will cheat.

Losers will lose.

Truth always comes out, might not be now, but eventually it always comes out…

Energetik.6471:

Preacher.9018:

>spyingSpying was part of metagame, still is to a degree, and is entirely normal.

Cheaters will cheat.

Losers will lose.

Truth always comes out, might not be now, but eventually it always comes out…

Except we won We created and brought Europe least populated and worst ranked in BWE server to 1st place in WvW fighting most of the time as low/medium server against high/full – something no one else achieved in this game.

We spied, people spied of us – the only people that think spying is not part of metagame are clueless ones that never took part in real MMO pvp conflicts. Its not as useful in GW2, where its mostly diplomatic info (though some vital to victories info was present too). Just look at EVE online.

At one point however, we just decided to go opposite and open our site, with most extensible WvW knowledge database and tactical discussions existing at the point, team speak, even schedule turning the closed alliance to server wide community and open for all others to browse too. So before posting, you`d at least learn who you speak with.

Preacher.9018:

Energetik.6471:

Preacher.9018:

>spyingSpying was part of metagame, still is to a degree, and is entirely normal.

Cheaters will cheat.

Losers will lose.

Truth always comes out, might not be now, but eventually it always comes out…

Except we won We created and brought Europe least populated and worst ranked in BWE server to 1st place in WvW fighting most of the time as low/medium server against high/full – something no one else achieved in this game.

We spied, people spied of us – the only people that think spying is not part of metagame are clueless ones that never took part in real MMO pvp conflicts. Its not as useful in GW2, where its mostly diplomatic info (though some vital to victories info was present too). Just look at EVE online.

At one point however, we just decided to go opposite and open our site, with most extensible WvW knowledge database and tactical discussions existing at the point, team speak, even schedule turning the closed alliance to server wide community and open for all others to browse too. So before posting, you`d at least learn who you speak with.

Good to know being a coward and dodging implemented game mechanics to prevent this type of behavior is “taking part in real MMO PvP conflicts”.

Man it would be nice if people just played the game it was meant to be played for once instead of turning it into another Min/Max locust swarm grind fest operating solely on cheap and cheatworthy tactics.

You wanna know what happened to people who were proven to be spies or radar’d in RvR on DAoC? No one talked to them and they had to start over because everyone knew they were kitten.