Guild Wars 2

The purpose of the current PPK model (1 point per kill) was to provide a way for more fight oriented groups to contribute to the team’s success, I feel the amount provided is small. For current NA T1 servers, the difference between the lowest, and highest server kills is only about 5000 (Wednsday, 5pm est). 5000 thousand points ahead is not significant when the overall scores are around 150,000.

Conversely, the purpose of this proposal is to provide a more noticeable impact on scoring by increasing/decreasing the effectiveness of PTT by multiplying it with K/D ratio.

If the K/D ratio is a direct multiplier to PPT, this would reward smarter gameplay (in fights, or in siege war fair with efficient placements). This would punish throwing bodies in a stream to secure an objective. Ultimately this would provide a more noticeable affect to a team’s success, and encourage smarter plays in fights, or securing objectives.

Example assuming k/d maintains the same:

OverallScore(K/D ratio) = new amount

YB: 150,000 (0.8) = 120,000
BG: 150,000 (1.2) = 180,000
JQ: 150,000 (1.0) = 150,000

With the ratio multiplying into PPT, the contribution from fighting is more noticeable (you can change the effectiveness of this ratio as you see fit).

Furthermore, capping objectives should provide kills/deaths to affect this multiplier (this is so that objectives stay relevant). The tier of objects captured/lost should increase with value with tier (to reward capturing/holding harder objectives). Only the act of capturing/losing an objective should affect the ratio and not the tick itself.

Example, each tier increases the affect on K/D for the capturing, and losing teams:

Objective: Tier 1 amount, Tier 2 amount, Tier 3 amount (the amounts add kills to capturing team, and give deaths to holding team)

Camp: 2, 4, 8
Tower: 5, 10, 20
Keep: 15, 30, 60
SMC: 20, 40, 80

It is important to understand that I am from a guild that is “fight oriented” during NA timezone (9pm est – 11 pm est). I do however play in SEA (8am est – 10am est) and EU (1pm est – 5pm est) sometimes roaming or following “zergs” during those times if there are any.

Editions for easier read that have come up in the current topic:

Teams with the “outnumbered” buff will not receive any type of death penalty on their K/D or count as points for the “outnumbering” team. This is to hopefully alleviate concerns of blobs spawn camping smaller forces for easy points, or blobs greatly affecting K/D by capping ‘empty’ borderlands.

To avoid the fear of snow balling the K/D score, a threshold should be put in place for the min/max. Example: minimun of 1/2 and a maximum of 2/1 ( I have not seen any server on NA side to fall too far outside these numbers.

CONCLUSION:
It is not viable, because K/D ratio multiplying into the PPT is harder to display, and communicate effectively to the player base. Reduction/Editing to current PPT would be needed to make PPK significant, and perhaps increasing the static number for PPK itself.
I still believe that killing players with “outnumber” buff should not gain score for the outnumbering team.
I will not be making anymore posts in this topic, others are welcome to start another one to discuss changes to “PPT” or “PPK” or both. Cheers.

I don’t see the harm in this. Do they keep WvW kill/death data?

I don’t claim to know what Anet stores, but you can get K/D from http://wvwintel.com/. I would imagine they have it though.

Pick a server, and click the blue down arrow.

Great, reward staying in a fully sieged up tower and raining arrows down on the other servers that actually want to PvP.

Turtling doesn’t make a very fun WvW.

Swamurabi.7890:

Great, reward staying in a fully sieged up tower and raining arrows down on the other servers that actually want to PvP.

Turtling doesn’t make a very fun WvW.

You could put this in better terms, but this system simply rewards smarter plays. “Fully sieged” towers can be taken down, it just will take more than two rams.

The topic is not for in depth strategy discussion in my opinion. I can only speak from my time on NA T1, if the situation you describe is common I do not share the same experience (even with the notorious YB).

So essentially all of the servers that have less players than the servers they are fighting would lose twice. They lose the PPT battle because the server with more players can hold more keeps / towers / camps than they can, and then they lose again because the server with more players can win more fights (and therefore achieve a higher K/D ratio) due to their numbers advantage. A 40 man blob wiping a group of 10 while only losing 2 of their own would have a 5.0 K/D ratio, so I guess we should reward them for their skilled play by giving them more points.

Waffler.1257:

So essentially all of the servers that have less players than the servers they are fighting would lose twice. They lose the PPT battle because the server with more players can hold more keeps / towers / camps than they can, and then they lose again because the server with more players can win more fights (and therefore achieve a higher K/D ratio) due to their numbers advantage. A 40 man blob wiping a group of 10 while only losing 2 of their own would have a 5.0 K/D ratio, so I guess we should reward them for their skilled play by giving them more points.

Indeed, that is true if you take this system as it stands. If the smaller group continued to be caught by the larger group the K/D would inflate.

I can provide you a constructive solution, to lessen the effects the K/D scoring by gaining no “kills” on those with “outmanned” buff. This applies to the kills provided by capping the “outmanned” team’s objectives.

I can also provide another, you can place a threshold on the K/D ratio like minimun of 1/2 and a max of 2/1. Or whatever number you wish.

To reiterate the proposal, this system is for a more rewarding “PPK” not necessarily a solution to coverage or population imbalances. Feel free to suggest editions to this if you wish, just as I have.

You do know k/d is not just player on player kills/deaths right? I put 0 faith in those numbers – they are supposedly not even real time….. Look at them now just a few hours later for the same three servers…. Then look 10 minutes later and there are less k/d than before….

A better answer – award more for ppk. 2 3 4 who knows? Realize pirate ship just got worse with that change. maybe even just total bunker once you are in the lead.
An even better answer – fix ppt. In t1 we probably don’t have it as bad with a few people flipping everything off-hours, but that issue exists. Flip it once and it keeps ticking because no one is around to flip it back…..

This has the exact same critical issue as PPT – One point gained for a server is a point lost for the other, doubling the impact. The higher the multiplier… well you get the idea.

Its not viable.

I think k/d stuff would just encourage people to play as safe as possible. But I do think a risk/reward mechanic, like pips in sPvP leagues, could and should be added to spice things up.

getting tired saying this proposition to every thread that i come across to “balance” WvW

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/World-vs-World-Holiday-Sneak-Peek/page/11

ctrl F——— “redundant factor”

ive been on T7-T6-T5-T4 and currently im on a T1 server

now to those who say that lower populate server will lose twice reread th redundant factor notes and compare it to the current PPK model (1 point 1 kill) to the proposed one (on my link thread)

that smaller number MUST be good at fights “survival of the fittest” otherwise
git gud or git rekt~~~~
it is the -chance- of the lower populated server to take on the bigger ones

one guy was confused before on math so can you but those explanations are pretty solid which made him speechless afterwards

Liston.9708:

You do know k/d is not just player on player kills/deaths right? I put 0 faith in those numbers – they are supposedly not even real time….. Look at them now just a few hours later for the same three servers…. Then look 10 minutes later and there are less k/d than before….

A better answer – award more for ppk. 2 3 4 who knows? Realize pirate ship just got worse with that change. maybe even just total bunker once you are in the lead.
An even better answer – fix ppt. In t1 we probably don’t have it as bad with a few people flipping everything off-hours, but that issue exists. Flip it once and it keeps ticking because no one is around to flip it back…..

Considering it is a third party program utilizing whatever data is provided through ANET’s API, I wouldn’t expect the results to be in real time. Indeed there is an odd lag to # where initially smaller numbers are given, then a couple minutes later much larger numbers are shown. For T1, the k/d ratio remained similar between this laggy period for me. We can only assume that ANET does have true(er) statistics.

On to increasing PPK only. If we assume that my first numbers in the original post are true, the PPK would need to be increased significantly. I said that the difference in points provided by current PPK was 5000, and that the team’s overall scores were 150,000 – 180,000. That is to say, current PPK is only about 1/30 of the deciding factor for the team’s success.

By increasing the PPK only, we inflate the overall points to increase this “deciding factor.” Hard to say if that inflation is better or worse, because I dont believe all the numbers are given by said 3rd party software thing.

Example, higher the fraction the more relevant PPK is:
PPK at 2 = 2/30 or 1/15
PPK at 3 = 3/30 or 1/10 (probably the better number)
PPK at 4 = 4/30 or 1/5

I would also go on to say to double or triple the amount for stomping since it involves more risk, and rewards roaming where it can be safer to do so.

As for the current PPT for towers, I don’t think it is within this topic’s discussion for an in depth response. I do however favor points on capture/loss only, and not having it tick. You are welcome to start your own topic on the matter.

roamzero.9486:

I think k/d stuff would just encourage people to play as safe as possible. But I do think a risk/reward mechanic, like pips in sPvP leagues, could and should be added to spice things up.

I think initially people would play it safe, because it will be like an “unknown” to them. Without risking sounding romantic…as for the bold, and brave they will continue to perform normally, and in stride.

If you could elaborate how the PIPs system translates into wvw. Is “winning” or “losing” based on objectives? Is it based on killing? That sort of thing is very helpful, then say it is better than original post because of this, and that.

Norbe.7630:

getting tired saying this proposition to every thread that i come across to “balance” WvW

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/World-vs-World-Holiday-Sneak-Peek/page/11

---

ctrl F——— “redundant factor”

ive been on T7-T6-T5-T4 and currently im on a T1 server

now to those who say that lower populate server will lose twice reread th redundant factor notes and compare it to the current PPK model (1 point 1 kill) to the proposed one (on my link thread)

that smaller number MUST be good at fights “survival of the fittest” otherwise
git gud or git rekt~~~~
it is the -chance- of the lower populated server to take on the bigger ones

one guy was confused before on math so can you but those explanations are pretty solid which made him speechless afterwards

The purpose of this topic was not to “balance WvW” in it’s entirety. It was to make PPK more significant. I have seen some of your posts sporadically throughout that topic. I would have recommended to consolidate your efforts into your own topic to receive more focused attention, and save me the trouble of making mine. You too seemed to have wanted to institute K/D ratio as a multiplier as well.

You lose my interest when you want to reward more points based on killing “ranked” players. To me, this supports alienation because said players will be harassed, when (to be honest) rank in WvW is just attained by time, not necessarily skill. These are the long time players of WvW, who may be casual or hardcore, but still are willing to put time into a game mode they love. Why would you punish them?

If you changed your opinion on this, forgive me, because it would have been more helpful to locate as its own topic.

Chinchilla.1785:

Liston.9708:

You do know k/d is not just player on player kills/deaths right? I put 0 faith in those numbers – they are supposedly not even real time….. Look at them now just a few hours later for the same three servers…. Then look 10 minutes later and there are less k/d than before….

A better answer – award more for ppk. 2 3 4 who knows? Realize pirate ship just got worse with that change. maybe even just total bunker once you are in the lead.
An even better answer – fix ppt. In t1 we probably don’t have it as bad with a few people flipping everything off-hours, but that issue exists. Flip it once and it keeps ticking because no one is around to flip it back…..

Considering it is a third party program utilizing whatever data is provided through ANET’s API, I wouldn’t expect the results to be in real time. Indeed there is an odd lag to # where initially smaller numbers are given, then a couple minutes later much larger numbers are shown. For T1, the k/d ratio remained similar between this laggy period for me. We can only assume that ANET does have true(er) statistics.

On to increasing PPK only. If we assume that my first numbers in the original post are true, the PPK would need to be increased significantly. I said that the difference in points provided by current PPK was 5000, and that the team’s overall scores were 150,000 – 180,000. That is to say, current PPK is only about 1/30 of the deciding factor for the team’s success.

By increasing the PPK only, we inflate the overall points to increase this “deciding factor.” Hard to say if that inflation is better or worse, because I dont believe all the numbers are given by said 3rd party software thing.

Example, higher the fraction the more relevant PPK is:
PPK at 2 = 2/30 or 1/15
PPK at 3 = 3/30 or 1/10 (probably the better number)
PPK at 4 = 4/30 or 1/5

I would also go on to say to double or triple the amount for stomping since it involves more risk, and rewards roaming where it can be safer to do so.

As for the current PPT for towers, I don’t think it is within this topic’s discussion for an in depth response. I do however favor points on capture/loss only, and not having it tick. You are welcome to start your own topic on the matter.

My point was it is hard to make ppk more important when weighed against a broken ppt number. We would sort of need adjustments to both.

Granted a ppk adjustment would be easier to code for Anet if they wanted to. My guess is it is easier to add 2 points instead of 1 (or any fixed number of course) than using k/d as a factor (which we don’t even know how they get those numbers). I’d want to know the exact way k/d is accumulated before using that.

In the end, I doubt they do anything until the “soon” patch, but you are correct that ppk is pretty pointless as it exists right now.

Chinchilla.1785:

The purpose of this topic was not to “balance WvW” in it’s entirety. It was to make PPK more significant. I have seen some of your posts sporadically throughout that topic. I would have recommended to consolidate your efforts into your own topic to receive more focused attention, and save me the trouble of making mine. You too seemed to have wanted to institute K/D ratio as a multiplier as well.

You lose my interest when you want to reward more points based on killing “ranked” players. To me, this supports alienation because said players will be harassed, when (to be honest) rank in WvW is just attained by time, not necessarily skill. These are the long time players of WvW, who may be casual or hardcore, but still are willing to put time into a game mode they love. Why would you punish them?

If you changed your opinion on this, forgive me, because it would have been more helpful to locate as its own topic.

why thank you for noticing me senpai
and kudos to bringing this topic up
now lets get down to business…

as ive said before ive been on different tiers, one thing i noticed recently that the battles/fights on t5-t7 (or maybe t8) was like a massive GvG supertactical gameplay fights (i love it)
and on t1 (or maybe t2-t4) it was like an eotm zerg vs zerg mode where one zerg one pushes the other.

the purpose on giving higher ranked higher killed points was to gives the fights a more battle of wits than might to give it a more tactical gameplay to which upper tier lacks due to the PPT meta they embraced. “quality over quantity”

on my previous server ive seen 1vs10 and that guy can kill 2 atleast on that fight
his guardian/dragon hunter i give so much respect…..

when im on a lower tier before i said to myself that “why would i want to transfer to a higher tier, is it just for fights?, i could just go to EoTM if i just want fights”

now my nightmare has became a reality… that fights ive always wanted was like eotm on EB… so its safe to say that ive only transfered here out of curiosity.

*edit
https://youtu.be/jhbjG8lOKao?t=30
there you could see that guy in action

https://youtu.be/WgF1b1H1lvE?t=291
here if you want a tactical mode, luring enemy blob for an ambush

https://youtu.be/TDA-VlTq7v4?t=1
and i too also harass higher ranked players lol, spices up WvW life for me, makes WvW for me more enjoyable so i get your point

on the lower tier (where it lack man power to PPT) loosing a zerg/blob on fights would mean loosing a tick for your server so every player whether its a platinum ranked or a bronze rank is of equal importance to a server…
and to a zerg vs zerg battles it is hard to differentiate a platinum ranked to a bronze ranked one, what your instinct will tell you is that you have to kill every red labeled player on your screen

Liston.9708:

My point was it is hard to make ppk more important when weighed against a broken ppt number. We would sort of need adjustments to both.

Granted a ppk adjustment would be easier to code for Anet if they wanted to. My guess is it is easier to add 2 points instead of 1 (or any fixed number of course) than using k/d as a factor (which we don’t even know how they get those numbers). I’d want to know the exact way k/d is accumulated before using that.

In the end, I doubt they do anything until the “soon” patch, but you are correct that ppk is pretty pointless as it exists right now.

I have come to the conclusion that using K/D ratio to modify ppt in any manner would be poor to display to players. While it may have made “PPK” more significant, it is harder to communicate than static number increases.

It is harder to concisely say, “Your PPT is gained by objectives held every 15 minutes whereby K/D determines the percentage.” Ugly.

It is easier to say, “Your PPT is gained by objectives held every 15 minutes, and player kills.” Better-ish, although the first half about PPT is still ugly imo but that is the current system.

In my opinion, if I changed WvW it would be easiest to say, “Your score is gained by, capturing objectives, upgrading objectives, and by player kills.” Meaning the removal of a “tic” for points system that can occur in dead hours, and giving points on active plays (capturing, upgrading, and killing).

The issue I worry about increasing current PPK, to say 5 where it would be more significant, the current numbers would bloat up too much. I don’t believe ANET’s current PPT display supports numbers passed 999,999, and I wouldn’t want to find out in this manner (this isn’t to say numbers would even get close to 999,999).

We would indeed need to reduce the current PPT amount to make PPK viable, and avoid bloated numbers. I do not claim to know ANETs abilities, but I must assume they have the resources/man power/passion as a “AAA” company. That being said, skepticism is welcome, but I would personally avoid becoming a doomsayer. That is to say…passion lost of customers is passion lost of developers.

Now if only there was a viable way to support the favored game modes directly either financially, conceptually or otherwise. A discussion for another topic. This one is concluded in my opinion. Thank you everyone for participating.

now you know why didn’t make a thread about it last time.
but thank you for bringing this up anyway
/salute

how i wish i could make videos like this on T1 as ive done it on low tiers……….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tiYDLLe4Co