Guild Wars 2

Zikory.6871:

BrockMcCleery.9562:

It’s broken, no idea why anyone would argue against that. Stun locks are always bad for PvP game play. This is basically the same thing except it immobilizes. Those kind of mechanics make players leave PvP games.

If you can’t kill enemies without broken abilities you shouldn’t PvP and should definitely not come to the forums and defend something that is so stupidly broken.

I’m sorry but your generalization of the discussion is off. The fact that warriors on arrow carts can hold a assault on a keep or tower of long periods time is just imo. Why should it be easy for hordes of people to take a defended keep easily. The players defending should have the tactical advantage with defensive siege and choke points into the lord room. The arrow carts are powerful towards Rams and players trying to PvDoor there way in. The counter is to build catas or trebs out of arrow cart range and take doors or walls down. If the arrow carts are holding you from entering through a choke point, regroup and attack a different point.

Most choke points can be held with out a single arrow cart. It happens all the time…I see it first hand anytime JQ or SoR are attacking a BG keep I’m helping defend. I would bet JQ and SoR could say the same vs us.

Carts already filled all these niches without being able to immobilize indefinitely. They were fine as they were.

Pinko actually hit the balance issue on the head: for 12 silver (or 12 badges) and 60 supply two coordinated warriors can hold up to 50 people in the same spot indefinitely, assuming no condition removal is used (which would not be terribly uncommon for those who aren’t hardcore about wvw). Without that trait, they can maybe delay for 10 seconds while the enemy hobbles through. Because of the skewed balance (very little cost to very high reward), this is inherently a balance issue, not a l2play issue or a strat issue (though those certainly play into it somewhat).

Quickest solution IMO is to change how the trait operates with siege so it either does not immobilize at all or has a reduced duration (.5 or .25 seconds). IMO the trait as it is without siege is fine.

saiyr.3071:

Zikory.6871:

BrockMcCleery.9562:

It’s broken, no idea why anyone would argue against that. Stun locks are always bad for PvP game play. This is basically the same thing except it immobilizes. Those kind of mechanics make players leave PvP games.

If you can’t kill enemies without broken abilities you shouldn’t PvP and should definitely not come to the forums and defend something that is so stupidly broken.

I’m sorry but your generalization of the discussion is off. The fact that warriors on arrow carts can hold a assault on a keep or tower of long periods time is just imo. Why should it be easy for hordes of people to take a defended keep easily. The players defending should have the tactical advantage with defensive siege and choke points into the lord room. The arrow carts are powerful towards Rams and players trying to PvDoor there way in. The counter is to build catas or trebs out of arrow cart range and take doors or walls down. If the arrow carts are holding you from entering through a choke point, regroup and attack a different point.

Most choke points can be held with out a single arrow cart. It happens all the time…I see it first hand anytime JQ or SoR are attacking a BG keep I’m helping defend. I would bet JQ and SoR could say the same vs us.

Really, so we’re going argue for balancing siege around PvD odds now? I’m sorry, but if you’re facing PvD odds, the defenders should lose. This coming from one of the most frequently night capped servers in NA. If you try to enter a choke point held down by immobilizing carts and relatively even numbers, your zerg isn’t going to regroup and attack at a different point, it’s going to wipe in 5 seconds flat and then regroup. I’ve seen this happen over and over again. But I guess since I’m not in T1, I don’t know pro tactics, right?

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

wtf i played over 500 hours on my warrior with leg specialist almost all the time in wvw and used a ton on AC’s but I never knew this

It’s a relatively recent change.

Oh ok. So what they really need to do is implement a new system it checks how many people are attacking to how man defending. If the attackers out number them, the tower should just flip automatically. The defenders are suppose to lose, so why fight?

I am completely amazed by how blindingly incompetent some people in this thread are.

Serophous.9085:

saiyr.3071:

Zikory.6871:

BrockMcCleery.9562:

It’s broken, no idea why anyone would argue against that. Stun locks are always bad for PvP game play. This is basically the same thing except it immobilizes. Those kind of mechanics make players leave PvP games.

If you can’t kill enemies without broken abilities you shouldn’t PvP and should definitely not come to the forums and defend something that is so stupidly broken.

I’m sorry but your generalization of the discussion is off. The fact that warriors on arrow carts can hold a assault on a keep or tower of long periods time is just imo. Why should it be easy for hordes of people to take a defended keep easily. The players defending should have the tactical advantage with defensive siege and choke points into the lord room. The arrow carts are powerful towards Rams and players trying to PvDoor there way in. The counter is to build catas or trebs out of arrow cart range and take doors or walls down. If the arrow carts are holding you from entering through a choke point, regroup and attack a different point.

Most choke points can be held with out a single arrow cart. It happens all the time…I see it first hand anytime JQ or SoR are attacking a BG keep I’m helping defend. I would bet JQ and SoR could say the same vs us.

Really, so we’re going argue for balancing siege around PvD odds now? I’m sorry, but if you’re facing PvD odds, the defenders should lose. This coming from one of the most frequently night capped servers in NA. If you try to enter a choke point held down by immobilizing carts and relatively even numbers, your zerg isn’t going to regroup and attack at a different point, it’s going to wipe in 5 seconds flat and then regroup. I’ve seen this happen over and over again. But I guess since I’m not in T1, I don’t know pro tactics, right?

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

wtf i played over 500 hours on my warrior with leg specialist almost all the time in wvw and used a ton on AC’s but I never knew this

It’s a relatively recent change.

Oh ok. So what they really need to do is implement a new system it checks how many people are attacking to how man defending. If the attackers out number them, the tower should just flip automatically. The defenders are suppose to lose, so why fight?

i like how your sarcastic comment makes it painfully obvious just how much you missed my point

Edit:

I am completely amazed by how blindingly incompetent some people in this thread are.

At least try to be somewhat constructive, eh?

saiyr.3071:

Serophous.9085:

saiyr.3071:

Zikory.6871:

BrockMcCleery.9562:

It’s broken, no idea why anyone would argue against that. Stun locks are always bad for PvP game play. This is basically the same thing except it immobilizes. Those kind of mechanics make players leave PvP games.

If you can’t kill enemies without broken abilities you shouldn’t PvP and should definitely not come to the forums and defend something that is so stupidly broken.

I’m sorry but your generalization of the discussion is off. The fact that warriors on arrow carts can hold a assault on a keep or tower of long periods time is just imo. Why should it be easy for hordes of people to take a defended keep easily. The players defending should have the tactical advantage with defensive siege and choke points into the lord room. The arrow carts are powerful towards Rams and players trying to PvDoor there way in. The counter is to build catas or trebs out of arrow cart range and take doors or walls down. If the arrow carts are holding you from entering through a choke point, regroup and attack a different point.

Most choke points can be held with out a single arrow cart. It happens all the time…I see it first hand anytime JQ or SoR are attacking a BG keep I’m helping defend. I would bet JQ and SoR could say the same vs us.

Really, so we’re going argue for balancing siege around PvD odds now? I’m sorry, but if you’re facing PvD odds, the defenders should lose. This coming from one of the most frequently night capped servers in NA. If you try to enter a choke point held down by immobilizing carts and relatively even numbers, your zerg isn’t going to regroup and attack at a different point, it’s going to wipe in 5 seconds flat and then regroup. I’ve seen this happen over and over again. But I guess since I’m not in T1, I don’t know pro tactics, right?

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

wtf i played over 500 hours on my warrior with leg specialist almost all the time in wvw and used a ton on AC’s but I never knew this

It’s a relatively recent change.

Oh ok. So what they really need to do is implement a new system it checks how many people are attacking to how man defending. If the attackers out number them, the tower should just flip automatically. The defenders are suppose to lose, so why fight?

i like how your sarcastic comment makes it painfully obvious just how much you missed my point

Edit:

I am completely amazed by how blindingly incompetent some people in this thread are.

At least try to be somewhat constructive, eh?

No no. I got it. Numbers always win. We can just cut out the middle man now. I mean, in PvD situations, i can totally see it being unfair for the one team to keep at least one tower while the rest of the map turns the other color.

Serophous.9085:

saiyr.3071:

Serophous.9085:

saiyr.3071:

Zikory.6871:

BrockMcCleery.9562:

It’s broken, no idea why anyone would argue against that. Stun locks are always bad for PvP game play. This is basically the same thing except it immobilizes. Those kind of mechanics make players leave PvP games.

If you can’t kill enemies without broken abilities you shouldn’t PvP and should definitely not come to the forums and defend something that is so stupidly broken.

I’m sorry but your generalization of the discussion is off. The fact that warriors on arrow carts can hold a assault on a keep or tower of long periods time is just imo. Why should it be easy for hordes of people to take a defended keep easily. The players defending should have the tactical advantage with defensive siege and choke points into the lord room. The arrow carts are powerful towards Rams and players trying to PvDoor there way in. The counter is to build catas or trebs out of arrow cart range and take doors or walls down. If the arrow carts are holding you from entering through a choke point, regroup and attack a different point.

Most choke points can be held with out a single arrow cart. It happens all the time…I see it first hand anytime JQ or SoR are attacking a BG keep I’m helping defend. I would bet JQ and SoR could say the same vs us.

Really, so we’re going argue for balancing siege around PvD odds now? I’m sorry, but if you’re facing PvD odds, the defenders should lose. This coming from one of the most frequently night capped servers in NA. If you try to enter a choke point held down by immobilizing carts and relatively even numbers, your zerg isn’t going to regroup and attack at a different point, it’s going to wipe in 5 seconds flat and then regroup. I’ve seen this happen over and over again. But I guess since I’m not in T1, I don’t know pro tactics, right?

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

wtf i played over 500 hours on my warrior with leg specialist almost all the time in wvw and used a ton on AC’s but I never knew this

It’s a relatively recent change.

Oh ok. So what they really need to do is implement a new system it checks how many people are attacking to how man defending. If the attackers out number them, the tower should just flip automatically. The defenders are suppose to lose, so why fight?

i like how your sarcastic comment makes it painfully obvious just how much you missed my point

Edit:

I am completely amazed by how blindingly incompetent some people in this thread are.

At least try to be somewhat constructive, eh?

No no. I got it. Numbers always win. We can just cut out the middle man now. I mean, in PvD situations, i can totally see it being unfair for the one team to keep at least one tower while the rest of the map turns the other color.

no, you really don’t “got it” because with overwhelming odds they won’t keep that one tower anyway

saiyr.3071:

Serophous.9085:

saiyr.3071:

Serophous.9085:

saiyr.3071:

Zikory.6871:

BrockMcCleery.9562:

It’s broken, no idea why anyone would argue against that. Stun locks are always bad for PvP game play. This is basically the same thing except it immobilizes. Those kind of mechanics make players leave PvP games.

If you can’t kill enemies without broken abilities you shouldn’t PvP and should definitely not come to the forums and defend something that is so stupidly broken.

I’m sorry but your generalization of the discussion is off. The fact that warriors on arrow carts can hold a assault on a keep or tower of long periods time is just imo. Why should it be easy for hordes of people to take a defended keep easily. The players defending should have the tactical advantage with defensive siege and choke points into the lord room. The arrow carts are powerful towards Rams and players trying to PvDoor there way in. The counter is to build catas or trebs out of arrow cart range and take doors or walls down. If the arrow carts are holding you from entering through a choke point, regroup and attack a different point.

Most choke points can be held with out a single arrow cart. It happens all the time…I see it first hand anytime JQ or SoR are attacking a BG keep I’m helping defend. I would bet JQ and SoR could say the same vs us.

Really, so we’re going argue for balancing siege around PvD odds now? I’m sorry, but if you’re facing PvD odds, the defenders should lose. This coming from one of the most frequently night capped servers in NA. If you try to enter a choke point held down by immobilizing carts and relatively even numbers, your zerg isn’t going to regroup and attack at a different point, it’s going to wipe in 5 seconds flat and then regroup. I’ve seen this happen over and over again. But I guess since I’m not in T1, I don’t know pro tactics, right?

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

wtf i played over 500 hours on my warrior with leg specialist almost all the time in wvw and used a ton on AC’s but I never knew this

It’s a relatively recent change.

Oh ok. So what they really need to do is implement a new system it checks how many people are attacking to how man defending. If the attackers out number them, the tower should just flip automatically. The defenders are suppose to lose, so why fight?

i like how your sarcastic comment makes it painfully obvious just how much you missed my point

Edit:

I am completely amazed by how blindingly incompetent some people in this thread are.

At least try to be somewhat constructive, eh?

No no. I got it. Numbers always win. We can just cut out the middle man now. I mean, in PvD situations, i can totally see it being unfair for the one team to keep at least one tower while the rest of the map turns the other color.

no, you really don’t “got it” because with overwhelming odds they won’t keep that one tower anyway

So then, the arrow carts with the trait doesnt matter cause they will lose to the sheer odds

saiyr.3071:

Serophous.9085:

saiyr.3071:

Serophous.9085:

saiyr.3071:

Zikory.6871:

BrockMcCleery.9562:

It’s broken, no idea why anyone would argue against that. Stun locks are always bad for PvP game play. This is basically the same thing except it immobilizes. Those kind of mechanics make players leave PvP games.

If you can’t kill enemies without broken abilities you shouldn’t PvP and should definitely not come to the forums and defend something that is so stupidly broken.

I’m sorry but your generalization of the discussion is off. The fact that warriors on arrow carts can hold a assault on a keep or tower of long periods time is just imo. Why should it be easy for hordes of people to take a defended keep easily. The players defending should have the tactical advantage with defensive siege and choke points into the lord room. The arrow carts are powerful towards Rams and players trying to PvDoor there way in. The counter is to build catas or trebs out of arrow cart range and take doors or walls down. If the arrow carts are holding you from entering through a choke point, regroup and attack a different point.

Most choke points can be held with out a single arrow cart. It happens all the time…I see it first hand anytime JQ or SoR are attacking a BG keep I’m helping defend. I would bet JQ and SoR could say the same vs us.

Really, so we’re going argue for balancing siege around PvD odds now? I’m sorry, but if you’re facing PvD odds, the defenders should lose. This coming from one of the most frequently night capped servers in NA. If you try to enter a choke point held down by immobilizing carts and relatively even numbers, your zerg isn’t going to regroup and attack at a different point, it’s going to wipe in 5 seconds flat and then regroup. I’ve seen this happen over and over again. But I guess since I’m not in T1, I don’t know pro tactics, right?

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

wtf i played over 500 hours on my warrior with leg specialist almost all the time in wvw and used a ton on AC’s but I never knew this

It’s a relatively recent change.

Oh ok. So what they really need to do is implement a new system it checks how many people are attacking to how man defending. If the attackers out number them, the tower should just flip automatically. The defenders are suppose to lose, so why fight?

i like how your sarcastic comment makes it painfully obvious just how much you missed my point

Edit:

I am completely amazed by how blindingly incompetent some people in this thread are.

At least try to be somewhat constructive, eh?

No no. I got it. Numbers always win. We can just cut out the middle man now. I mean, in PvD situations, i can totally see it being unfair for the one team to keep at least one tower while the rest of the map turns the other color.

no, you really don’t “got it” because with overwhelming odds they won’t keep that one tower anyway

That’s not right to say, sadly WvW is a point game. If 2 warriors can hold 20 people trying to take a keep, then they are doing a great job. The point isn’t that the bigger force isn’t going to take the keep, the point is less is holding off more for longer, not only stopping them from getting extra PPT but stopping them from being productive else were.

Serophous.9085:

So then, the arrow carts with the trait doesnt matter cause they will lose to the sheer odds

it doesn’t matter in this case which is why it’s pointless to balance for pvd

Zikory.6871:

saiyr.3071:

Serophous.9085:

saiyr.3071:

Serophous.9085:

saiyr.3071:

Zikory.6871:

BrockMcCleery.9562:

It’s broken, no idea why anyone would argue against that. Stun locks are always bad for PvP game play. This is basically the same thing except it immobilizes. Those kind of mechanics make players leave PvP games.

If you can’t kill enemies without broken abilities you shouldn’t PvP and should definitely not come to the forums and defend something that is so stupidly broken.

I’m sorry but your generalization of the discussion is off. The fact that warriors on arrow carts can hold a assault on a keep or tower of long periods time is just imo. Why should it be easy for hordes of people to take a defended keep easily. The players defending should have the tactical advantage with defensive siege and choke points into the lord room. The arrow carts are powerful towards Rams and players trying to PvDoor there way in. The counter is to build catas or trebs out of arrow cart range and take doors or walls down. If the arrow carts are holding you from entering through a choke point, regroup and attack a different point.

Most choke points can be held with out a single arrow cart. It happens all the time…I see it first hand anytime JQ or SoR are attacking a BG keep I’m helping defend. I would bet JQ and SoR could say the same vs us.

Really, so we’re going argue for balancing siege around PvD odds now? I’m sorry, but if you’re facing PvD odds, the defenders should lose. This coming from one of the most frequently night capped servers in NA. If you try to enter a choke point held down by immobilizing carts and relatively even numbers, your zerg isn’t going to regroup and attack at a different point, it’s going to wipe in 5 seconds flat and then regroup. I’ve seen this happen over and over again. But I guess since I’m not in T1, I don’t know pro tactics, right?

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

wtf i played over 500 hours on my warrior with leg specialist almost all the time in wvw and used a ton on AC’s but I never knew this

It’s a relatively recent change.

Oh ok. So what they really need to do is implement a new system it checks how many people are attacking to how man defending. If the attackers out number them, the tower should just flip automatically. The defenders are suppose to lose, so why fight?

i like how your sarcastic comment makes it painfully obvious just how much you missed my point

Edit:

I am completely amazed by how blindingly incompetent some people in this thread are.

At least try to be somewhat constructive, eh?

No no. I got it. Numbers always win. We can just cut out the middle man now. I mean, in PvD situations, i can totally see it being unfair for the one team to keep at least one tower while the rest of the map turns the other color.

no, you really don’t “got it” because with overwhelming odds they won’t keep that one tower anyway

That’s not right to say, sadly WvW is a point game. If 2 warriors can hold 20 people trying to take a keep, then they are doing a great job. The point isn’t that the bigger force isn’t going to take the keep, the point is less is holding off more for longer, not only stopping them from getting extra PPT but stopping them from being productive else were.

My point was more that 2 warriors can’t hold 20 people trying to take a keep. Yes, they can immobilize all of them, but as has been pointed out many, many times, there are ways to get out of them and it is made much, much easier when there are no other defenders around to smash the zerg caught with its pants down.

saiyr.3071:

Serophous.9085:

So then, the arrow carts with the trait doesnt matter cause they will lose to the sheer odds

it doesn’t matter in this case which is why it’s pointless to balance for pvd

Zikory.6871:

saiyr.3071:

Serophous.9085:

saiyr.3071:

Serophous.9085:

saiyr.3071:

Zikory.6871:

BrockMcCleery.9562:

It’s broken, no idea why anyone would argue against that. Stun locks are always bad for PvP game play. This is basically the same thing except it immobilizes. Those kind of mechanics make players leave PvP games.

If you can’t kill enemies without broken abilities you shouldn’t PvP and should definitely not come to the forums and defend something that is so stupidly broken.

I’m sorry but your generalization of the discussion is off. The fact that warriors on arrow carts can hold a assault on a keep or tower of long periods time is just imo. Why should it be easy for hordes of people to take a defended keep easily. The players defending should have the tactical advantage with defensive siege and choke points into the lord room. The arrow carts are powerful towards Rams and players trying to PvDoor there way in. The counter is to build catas or trebs out of arrow cart range and take doors or walls down. If the arrow carts are holding you from entering through a choke point, regroup and attack a different point.

Most choke points can be held with out a single arrow cart. It happens all the time…I see it first hand anytime JQ or SoR are attacking a BG keep I’m helping defend. I would bet JQ and SoR could say the same vs us.

Really, so we’re going argue for balancing siege around PvD odds now? I’m sorry, but if you’re facing PvD odds, the defenders should lose. This coming from one of the most frequently night capped servers in NA. If you try to enter a choke point held down by immobilizing carts and relatively even numbers, your zerg isn’t going to regroup and attack at a different point, it’s going to wipe in 5 seconds flat and then regroup. I’ve seen this happen over and over again. But I guess since I’m not in T1, I don’t know pro tactics, right?

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

wtf i played over 500 hours on my warrior with leg specialist almost all the time in wvw and used a ton on AC’s but I never knew this

It’s a relatively recent change.

Oh ok. So what they really need to do is implement a new system it checks how many people are attacking to how man defending. If the attackers out number them, the tower should just flip automatically. The defenders are suppose to lose, so why fight?

i like how your sarcastic comment makes it painfully obvious just how much you missed my point

Edit:

I am completely amazed by how blindingly incompetent some people in this thread are.

At least try to be somewhat constructive, eh?

No no. I got it. Numbers always win. We can just cut out the middle man now. I mean, in PvD situations, i can totally see it being unfair for the one team to keep at least one tower while the rest of the map turns the other color.

no, you really don’t “got it” because with overwhelming odds they won’t keep that one tower anyway

That’s not right to say, sadly WvW is a point game. If 2 warriors can hold 20 people trying to take a keep, then they are doing a great job. The point isn’t that the bigger force isn’t going to take the keep, the point is less is holding off more for longer, not only stopping them from getting extra PPT but stopping them from being productive else were.

My point was more that 2 warriors can’t hold 20 people trying to take a keep. Yes, they can immobilize all of them, but as has been pointed out many, many times, there are ways to get out of them and it is made much, much easier when there are no other defenders around to smash the zerg caught with its pants down.

Well this is embarrassing…(I should really start paying better attention :-/)I completely agree with you. I don’t think the would be game changing.

saiyr.3071:

Serophous.9085:

So then, the arrow carts with the trait doesnt matter cause they will lose to the sheer odds

it doesn’t matter in this case which is why it’s pointless to balance for pvd

Zikory.6871:

saiyr.3071:

Serophous.9085:

saiyr.3071:

Serophous.9085:

saiyr.3071:

Zikory.6871:

BrockMcCleery.9562:

It’s broken, no idea why anyone would argue against that. Stun locks are always bad for PvP game play. This is basically the same thing except it immobilizes. Those kind of mechanics make players leave PvP games.

If you can’t kill enemies without broken abilities you shouldn’t PvP and should definitely not come to the forums and defend something that is so stupidly broken.

I’m sorry but your generalization of the discussion is off. The fact that warriors on arrow carts can hold a assault on a keep or tower of long periods time is just imo. Why should it be easy for hordes of people to take a defended keep easily. The players defending should have the tactical advantage with defensive siege and choke points into the lord room. The arrow carts are powerful towards Rams and players trying to PvDoor there way in. The counter is to build catas or trebs out of arrow cart range and take doors or walls down. If the arrow carts are holding you from entering through a choke point, regroup and attack a different point.

Most choke points can be held with out a single arrow cart. It happens all the time…I see it first hand anytime JQ or SoR are attacking a BG keep I’m helping defend. I would bet JQ and SoR could say the same vs us.

Really, so we’re going argue for balancing siege around PvD odds now? I’m sorry, but if you’re facing PvD odds, the defenders should lose. This coming from one of the most frequently night capped servers in NA. If you try to enter a choke point held down by immobilizing carts and relatively even numbers, your zerg isn’t going to regroup and attack at a different point, it’s going to wipe in 5 seconds flat and then regroup. I’ve seen this happen over and over again. But I guess since I’m not in T1, I don’t know pro tactics, right?

LieutenantGoogle.7326:

wtf i played over 500 hours on my warrior with leg specialist almost all the time in wvw and used a ton on AC’s but I never knew this

It’s a relatively recent change.

Oh ok. So what they really need to do is implement a new system it checks how many people are attacking to how man defending. If the attackers out number them, the tower should just flip automatically. The defenders are suppose to lose, so why fight?

i like how your sarcastic comment makes it painfully obvious just how much you missed my point

Edit:

I am completely amazed by how blindingly incompetent some people in this thread are.

At least try to be somewhat constructive, eh?

No no. I got it. Numbers always win. We can just cut out the middle man now. I mean, in PvD situations, i can totally see it being unfair for the one team to keep at least one tower while the rest of the map turns the other color.

no, you really don’t “got it” because with overwhelming odds they won’t keep that one tower anyway

That’s not right to say, sadly WvW is a point game. If 2 warriors can hold 20 people trying to take a keep, then they are doing a great job. The point isn’t that the bigger force isn’t going to take the keep, the point is less is holding off more for longer, not only stopping them from getting extra PPT but stopping them from being productive else were.

My point was more that 2 warriors can’t hold 20 people trying to take a keep. Yes, they can immobilize all of them, but as has been pointed out many, many times, there are ways to get out of them and it is made much, much easier when there are no other defenders around to smash the zerg caught with its pants down.

Oh ok. So it has to be case by case, with all these certain conditions and situations. So during PvD, the trait is fine cause they will to the zerg anyway.

But if seige isnt used (cause really, who could flash build anything with a zerg?), and no one has condition removers, no class using some teleport movemeny, or knock backs, or pulls, then i can see this trait being OP.

Yo have finally convinced me.

oh well maybe you guys should do less pvdooring and more sieging……

Holy crap. I actually agree with the Maguumans. And saiyr, no less.

I find it hard to believe that people are actually trying to defend this.

Yes. We know it can be countered. But for how stupidly easy it is to do, it has far too much of an impact on an attacking forces’ mobility.

Add a couple more defenders strafing that area with aoe/cc and the Zerg goes splat rather easily. Let’s not even talk about roughly even numbers on offense and defense. I know if my guild group came across a Zerg our size or larger, caught in these locks, we’d have a pain train field day.

Siege is vitally important in any engagement, if someplace is sieged and manned properly, it can stop zergs dead. But numbers do matter, and any force with overwhelming numbers should be able to win out. It’s simple math.

A lot of the defending here sounds like people who believe they’re good enough or smart enough to be able to beat a Zerg alone, or with a very small group. You’re not, and stop blaming a.net for making you incapable of doing so. Some people can, cause they actually are that good, but in your case, next time just call for help on team chat, mm’kay?

Every class has access to some form of ability to get out of the arrow cart’s circles of death while immobilized, and everyone can use siege to take the majority of arrow carts out ahead of time. There’s nothing OP about this, it’s just people getting caught in a situation they are unprepared for. That’s not to say it shouldn’t be changed, as the immobilize is a player ability the it should at least match the 5 person aoe cap.

Squibbles.8724:

Holy crap. I actually agree with the Maguumans. And saiyr, no less.

lolwut

I must be e-famous, cuz I have no recollection of who you are or what I said to earn that

I dont see why this trait doesnt have an internal cooldown. I went over my traits as Engineer and i find stuff like “applies cripple for a few seconds when you immobilize your target. (5sec cd)” “applies 2sec burn on crit. (3sec cd)” “gain 5 seconds of retaliation when crit (25sec cd)” "cripple enemies struck that are below 25% health ( 15sec cd) etcetc

And this trait for Warrior has zero internal cooldown? Really? Giving it even a 1sec internal cooldown would solve this issue, as it would immediatly only proc for 1 player instead of a whole zerg.

Terrahero.9358:

I dont see why this trait doesnt have an internal cooldown. I went over my traits as Engineer and i find stuff like “applies cripple for a few seconds when you immobilize your target. (5sec cd)” “applies 2sec burn on crit. (3sec cd)” “gain 5 seconds of retaliation when crit (25sec cd)” "cripple enemies struck that are below 25% health ( 15sec cd) etcetc

And this trait for Warrior has zero internal cooldown? Really? Giving it even a 1sec internal cooldown would solve this issue, as it would immediatly only proc for 1 player instead of a whole zerg.

It’s because it was designed to be used on weapon skills that apply cripple, which have far longer cooldowns than that of the arrow cart. Not a bad idea though, adding one.

Orikx.9671:

GrandmaFunk.3052:

Ya but in this extreme scenario of 5 holding down 200 indefinitely…. those 200 had to cram in a ball and go stand under the AoE to begin with… which sounds like a tactical failure on their part, whether this mechanic was in place or not.

Now the difference is they might actually pay for their overconfidence, rather than laugh it off thanks to the AoE cap.

When was the last time you looked at the size of the Arrow Cart AoE? It is far from a ball.

Churchill.8714:

How about you just run AoE retaliation and kill the Warriors?

Maybe try playing WvW before you comment. Retail hasn’t worked on siege for 6 months.

I’m not talking about the siege, I’m talking about the Warriors.

I was almost insta-downed the other day by a group doing this.

The problem here is that the change itself will affect the engineering population if the trait changes do get revoked.

Simply adding an ICD will damage the capability of warrior attacks with cripple in them, IF AND ONLY IF the cleave of said attacks that cripple and immobilize is intended. If it is intended, then a quick-fix, as they say, will damage professions which use bundles regularly (I’m looking at you, elementalists and engineers) since many traits might get borked and unusable.

For the meantime, using soft counters such as staff ele specced to provide cond cleanse on regen, null fielding mesmers, and bubble guards -should- work.

Arrow carts can do damage to at most 50 people in this circle but how many dumb people are going to be in that small red circle at the same time? Oh, I forgot there are dumb people, I should not dismiss this fact… sad to be dumb, huh?

Lol, looks like maguuma guys was owned pretty hard by this arrowcarts, so much whine.
BTW i think this should be baseline for arrowcarts, and other siege need serious anti-infantry buff too. In current state siege vs zerg are pretty much joke.

looks like you can’t read because i’ve never encountered them used against us but we’ve used them multiple times to run over other zergs

So you encounter stupid zergs? Too bad for them. In EU T1 even pug zergs already know how to counter this with mesmer ports and pre-assault siege cleaning.

Rednik.3809:

So you encounter stupid zergs? Too bad for them. In EU T1 even pug zergs already know how to counter this with mesmer ports and pre-assault siege cleaning.

Apparently it costs too much to be able to hit those arrow carts under the door overhang because we shouldn’t be using siege to counter siege and flash building siege to counter that siege is impossible to do with a zerg because no one is going to be able to get past that arrow cart range to build that siege because no one has condition removers to get past that warrior and his arrow cart.

Never mind that we could cat the door and/or wall or even the arrow cart manned by warriors on the wall without being in arrow cart range.

We all should just go play Carebares.

Wow, finally something that helps defense and instantly people want it removed. As if attacking towers/keeps with mega zergs should be even EASIER!

CreativeAnarchy.6324:

because we shouldn’t be using siege to counter siege

And this is modern zerg mentality. Why we should use siege for proper assault? Why we should perform countersiege AoE wall sweep? Why we should use ports? Or invis? Or aoe condi cleansing? Why siege became able to counter our zergball, this is not faaaaiiiir! I want facerub with my 40 buddies and take this reinforced tower for free!

BrockMcCleery.9562:

<sigh> This has nothing to do with how easy or hard it is to defend a keep or tower. It is simply not a good game mechanic to allow ONE class a massive advantage at using siege (in this case) over ALL the others. If the #2 AC ability immobilized for all classes, then we’d have balance and a more defensive game. BUT it only works that way for warriors which is going to kitten people off (I have a warrior, it is great and it also needs to be removed by not allowing it to work on siege).

I swear the players arguing for this to stay and (before/couple weeks back) those perma-stun PvE things are just out to troll or simply can’t PvP so they need to exploit.

Yes, I am saying you don’t understand competitive PvP, most likely because you suck at it.

<sigh> I swear the players saying that others suck at competitive PvP when trying to argue a point are just trolling like they claimed others are doing when arguing for the skill use on the arrow cart.

All arrow carts should have that immobolize added to them regardless of class. They could also offer a unique skill on each piece of siege depending upon the class manning the siege. They need a buff anyway.

Question Brock,

Can every class in the game 1v1 every other class in the game, given the same skill level, and win 50% of the time?

Since we know the answer to that, does every class bring something to group play that can be abused to an extent that people would cry about it?

Necro marks forever fear.

Hammer 3 skill chain immobilize for entire groups → chain earth shaker entire groups.

Glamour builds instant 25 stacks instakill low hp classes.

Warrior is the worst class in tower defense, and happens to be good on siege because of a trait that is easily countered in numerous ways if your brain has an on switch.

I don’t see the problem nor do I see the comparison to spikefruit or other items. No one is forcing you to run towards the arrow carts.

So whine about “why i must spend 300-400 supply to assault tower upgraded with ~10k supply? OMG SO OP NERF PLX!” is “competitive PvP” now? Sure…

eh, i’ll just bow out of this conversation and continue to farm badges with this totally balanced tactic easily countered by pug zergs. no point in two brick walls arguing with each other

saiyr.3071:

eh, i’ll just bow out of this conversation and continue to farm badges with this totally balanced tactic easily countered by pug zergs. no point in two brick walls arguing with each other

no no, dont go! What else would I read for luls?

Serophous.9085:

saiyr.3071:

eh, i’ll just bow out of this conversation and continue to farm badges with this totally balanced tactic easily countered by pug zergs. no point in two brick walls arguing with each other

no no, dont go! What else would I read for luls?

your blog

saiyr.3071:

Serophous.9085:

saiyr.3071:

eh, i’ll just bow out of this conversation and continue to farm badges with this totally balanced tactic easily countered by pug zergs. no point in two brick walls arguing with each other

no no, dont go! What else would I read for luls?

your blog

daw, someone finally noticed ^.^

And yay! you’re back!

That blog is all about pve so I’m not surprised the point in this thread is being missed entirely.

kfarb.6732:

That blog is all about pve so I’m not surprised the point in this thread is being missed entirely.

page view is a page view

I hope you have a lucrative video game blogging career. Godspeed on your noble pursuit.

kfarb.6732:

I hope you have a lucrative video game blogging career. Godspeed on your noble pursuit.

Daw thanks!

Hey, since we are talking about my blog now, can we change the title of this thread to it? It would be much appreciated.

saiyr.3071:

I think you’re being picky about numbers. I don’t think the goal should be that 5 people can take on “200”, and even if it is, that’s not the most common use case here. As the RET guy pointed out, zerg v zerg is all about mobility. Put one or two warriors on arrow carts and suddenly one zerg has no mobility and they’re all dead. You can theorycraft about counters all you want, but I think you should experience it before making a judgment call on its brokenness.

An important point to note here is that this OPness is being discussed in the context of stacked zergs (i.e. large organised groups that stack and have near constant swiftness and stability). Theorycrafting then, one way to overcome this issue is to not run in one zerg that all gets caught in the AoE of a cart.

Elsewhere on this board is a thread about how to get rid of the zerg. The obvious answer is to reduce their mobility and nullify their stability, which the AC leg specialist effectively does. Anything that might cause the stacked zerg meta to go away is good in my book.

saiyr.3071:

Chaba.5410:

Ravenor.3612:

Finally our condition removers (null field mesmers, shout warriors) go up there. We killed them, but it took a ridiculous amount of time for that to happen. Way too much influence for 3 people to have.

Add in engineers with Super Elixir and have everyone projectile finish (or whirl) thru it. Engineer with Kit Refinement on Elixir Gun and a Ranger shooting thru the field with Quickness, even better.

Your suggestion is to have the entire zerg be balled up into the size of a super elixir? Because I don’t see how they’re going to cure their immobilized if they aren’t already in that ball. And if they do, it’ll just be applied again in a second or two.

No, obviously not because you don’t need a zerg to be balled up to benefit from a projectile finisher. The condition removal occurs on anyone who is nearby the target of the projectile, or rather in the line of fire.

Anyone want to send me an executive summary of this thread? I know Engineers and Warriors can do this, and I know there are some meager counters like stability…

Can any other professions do stuns/knockdowns on arrow carts?

Waking.6052:

Anyone want to send me an executive summary of this thread? I know Engineers and Warriors can do this, and I know there are some meager counters like stability…

Can any other professions do stuns/knockdowns on arrow carts?

Warriors on arrow carts with a certain trait can immobilize for 5s (pulsing every 1s), which is a condition (not a stun, so stability isn’t a counter). Two warriors alternating fire can immobilize a 50-man zerg indefinitely. A mesmer could blink past the field of fire and drop a portal, but arrow cart fields are fairly large so 2+ arrow carts can lock down a pretty large area.

So, if you were to make a specialist arrowcart warrior, what traits would you get? equip? slot skills?

As for the slot skills, probably all banners.
Full condition duration spec?

So Anet makes changes
Those changes can easily be abused
People abuse it like mad

Last time I believe a lot of people were banned :P
Anet cant keep blaming players for their devs’ mistakes.
And how long will it be until this is fixed?!

kfarb.6732:

Warriors on arrow carts with a certain trait can immobilize for 5s (pulsing every 1s), which is a condition (not a stun, so stability isn’t a counter). Two warriors alternating fire can immobilize a 50-man zerg indefinitely. A mesmer could blink past the field of fire and drop a portal, but arrow cart fields are fairly large so 2+ arrow carts can lock down a pretty large area.

In addition to this, I think right now we’re still struggling with the common game play styles in T1 vs T3 and below. (Not sure where T2 would fit.) The problem I see with this is not in the areas where defeat is clear cut. (5 v 20). It’s in areas where skilled play would normally make a difference, such as a 15 man group defending against a 25 man group. This seems to be a relatively common scenario in Tiers 3/4, at least in non-peak hours. Without this trait involved, a skilled defending team (good siege placement, good timing) will be able to wipe even a skilled attacking team, as it should be. With this trait, even an unskilled defending team will be able to wipe a skilled attacking team. The only skill necessary to make this strategy successful are to have 2 arrow carts and 2 warriors with the trait, and for those two to make sure that if a mesmer blinks through, the next blast of immobilize goes on them.

Now, personally, I’m all for siege being more impressive. It’s pretty sad to me, when I put my condition ranger on a treb and all I see is 200 per tick. Hooray, I get to do enough damage per tick that a simple regen will counter, on a high-spec condi build! But, I think this pushes it too far out of balance.

It’s not overpowered until you’re the one that gets perma-glued to the ground unexpectedly in the open field because some server has a burr in their hair because they are losing and has decided that instead of trying to take objectives, they are going to grief people.

Sure, you can get a group and stay far far away and destroy them your own seige, but it’s a waste of time and effort on something that shouldn’t even be POSSIBLE to do. You can’t have 1 trait out of 100 apply to siege. Either they all do, or they all don’t.

And it’s hillarious that before this thread was created I’d run into this once. NOW it’s everywhere… it’s kinda sad that such a high percentage of the WvW population reads about this and instead of being against it, they hop into the game and immediately exploit it because it’s the only way they can get badges.

See, now this has to go. It’s a sickness. It’s invasive and will eat us all.

The key word in your post hex is unexpectedly. If you expect it isn’t not a problem at all in most areas (sure there’s a few towers/keeps that have an unavoidable choke point, but there are ways around that too).

One argument I’d like to say something against is that two warriors can cover a large area. In order to keep the immobilize up constantly both warriors have to drop their aoe onto a single spot, increasing the damage for that area but greatly cutting down in the overall area they can cover. A simple shadowstep, blocking skill, teleport, or other ability that works through immobilize should be more than enough to get out of the area they are focusing on.

Did we ever confirm if the confusion on interrupt trait works on catapults? My recollection was that it did and it was reported at least a month ago at this stage.

Another sad flaw in design to be abused by extremely skilled people..
Standing still at a gate for over 8 seconds while death rains upon you really is nice.

It’ll be nerfed just like Guard from Rangers was nerfed.