Guild Wars 2

So i was thinking would people still Zerg / Karma train if there where no / less rewards?

The thought is that an objective be worth X amount of WXP and Karma and the more people in the Area of the event such as taking a Camp and or tower receive a portion of the WXP / Karma. So the more people in the Zerg the less WXP and Karma an individual player would receive.

for example,

If a camp is worth 1000 WXP and 4 players take it they receive 250 WXP each
and if 20 players take the same camp they each only receive 50 WXP each

this could also roll over on to loot as well such as less players that kill a Lord better chance for higher tier loot.

Less reward for roaming thieves and warriors.

Probably not, it would probably just start a long list of complaint threads. This would also start to alienate pug players as guilds will be less likely to allow others to play with them because of loot/WXP.

I can kill alone the SM, keep and tower lords and NPC’s – why to share the rewards? Is this the end of WvW as a team game?

WvW is already slowly dying, day by day. Less and less people play, and the loot always was poor – make the loot/rewards even worse, so WvW players will have to PvE even more for gear?

When the game is in “karma train” mode, then usually it’s nothing to do there… game over. Remove the karma train too, and we can uninstall it as well.

As much as I don’t like the zerg meta, we don’t need less rewards for ANY part of WvW.. We already get the shaft anyways..

First, it sounds like most of you responding are the karma/wxp train hoppers. I think the idea of splitting a reward of karma/wxp is amazing, and could possibly and would be imo a great way of getting more solo/small group play. I can even understand the point of lower/higher rewards on lords depending on the amount of people in the area. To those that would have a problem with this idea. Go learn to roam or small group play and get away from the zergs if you want better rewards.
It might actually start to give a meaning to the wvw titles bronze,silver etc , as we have all seen that silver “blank” that is horrible and all there rank proves is they join those trains alot.

what are these thread of lesser this lesser that etc ? uh….

if you don’t like karma train, just roam with your buddies….

wopapers.3184:

First, it sounds like most of you responding are the karma/wxp train hoppers. I think the idea of splitting a reward of karma/wxp is amazing, and could possibly and would be imo a great way of getting more solo/small group play. I can even understand the point of lower/higher rewards on lords depending on the amount of people in the area. To those that would have a problem with this idea. Go learn to roam or small group play and get away from the zergs if you want better rewards.
It might actually start to give a meaning to the wvw titles bronze,silver etc , as we have all seen that silver “blank” that is horrible and all there rank proves is they join those trains alot.

You don’t need to be a non-karma trainer to see a bad idea when it crops up.

Is the karma train really more profitable than roaming? As a solo roamer, I usually kill tower or keep guards as I pass by to build stacks, get free wxp, contest waypoints, etc. If the karma train flips that objective later, I get credit for it. On top of that, I get to constantly flip camps, sentries, and get kills (although not as many as a zerg would get, obviously).

I’ve never really done much of anything in a large group, so I don’t really know, maybe the bag drops from other players are enough to make it way more profitable. But from where I’m standing, it feels like I’m getting more than a train player.

Eh, we don’t flip structures for wxp/karma. We flip it because it adds to our PPT.

Your idea is a great way to encourage animosity within servers

Love it how people are still on the WvW is dying bandwagon. With no knowledge about anything. Just plain stupid.

slamb.4781:

So i was thinking would people still Zerg / Karma train if there where no / less rewards?

The thought is that an objective be worth X amount of WXP and Karma and the more people in the Area of the event such as taking a Camp and or tower receive a portion of the WXP / Karma. So the more people in the Zerg the less WXP and Karma an individual player would receive.

for example,

If a camp is worth 1000 WXP and 4 players take it they receive 250 WXP each
and if 20 players take the same camp they each only receive 50 WXP each

this could also roll over on to loot as well such as less players that kill a Lord better chance for higher tier loot.

I find this to be highly obnoxious. Are you encouraging Anet to give us less reward?

I recall this post in similar wording, “It takes me an hour or even longer to cap a keep, but the rewards from taking it is 1 green and approximately 10 silvers (from a lvl up rank chest), along with 5-6 dragonite. This reward is absolutely horrible.”

Your post is encouraging a ridiculous notion that this attacking a keep, and getting terrible reward is acceptable. Are the OTHERS out there really encouraging OP’s topic? Karma train is a form of silent agreement between certain people pinning up, but if you’re trying to punish legitimate people running around to cap places, I would show you my puppy.

Instant contempt for SBI server guild [BÆST].

If you recall before the karma trains and WXP, WvW was about the fights and in some cases the ppt. People dont WvW for the loot. Making lesser rewards for the karma trains would bring back what WvW SHOULD be all about. Karma Trains and Ranks in this game have ruined servers. Mindless zerglings would protest this but if people really knew what roaming/havocing groups brought to a BL they would say otherwise.

rorynis.3218:

If you recall before the karma trains and WXP, WvW was about the fights and in some cases the ppt. People dont WvW for the loot. Making lesser rewards for the karma trains would bring back what WvW SHOULD be all about. Karma Trains and Ranks in this game have ruined servers. Mindless zerglings would protest this but if people really knew what roaming/havocing groups brought to a BL they would say otherwise.

You are completely missing the point, the source of your karma/wxp zerg stems from WXP, reducing the gain from WXP is only telling the zerg that you need to grind even harder to farm that “golden invader title.”

“It would” is too much of a strong word, no, it is probably, “would not change a thing”. Here’s the problem, if you get lesser WXP, then it means that the zerg will group up even more to get WXP from other people, or just drive up the frequency of capping something.

If you don’t like the zerging, please do your gvg inside the obsidian sanctum. You are ruining game modes.

I think people should actually read a post and think about it and understand what it says before they post. Or is that to much to ask

Reverence.6915:

Eh, we don’t flip structures for wxp/karma. We flip it because it adds to our PPT.

This.

Never been a part of a karma train in WvW.

Part of 4-man team that takes keeps and towers. Strategically.

Don’t agree with the suggestion at all to increase rewards in order to promote the things our guild does naturally as our contribution to the server, even if we’d benefit.

We don’t WvW for loot.

PS: any intuitive change to a complex system will inevitably leave that system worse off.

lol Lonewolfie. nobody said anything about a gvg. please take another look at my post. take another look at the inital post and try real hard to understand where the people who understand this are coming from. People can zerg, roam, havoc etc but the idea is to encourage a greater versatility on a borderland. And please Lonewolfie zerg harder cause you are so g00d at it!!

There’s nothing wrong with zerging. The zerg meta will form naturally in any large scale pvp mode. Regardless of mechanics. The idea that a zerg will be rewarded less than a few roamers goes against ANet’s philosophy for this game. It’s a bad idea that encourages selfish behaviour and reduces server cooperation.

Like I said earlier, we flip structures not for wxp or karma, but for PPT. Play to win, not for rewards.

rorynis.3218:

If you recall before the karma trains and WXP, WvW was about the fights and in some cases the ppt. People dont WvW for the loot. Making lesser rewards for the karma trains would bring back what WvW SHOULD be all about. Karma Trains and Ranks in this game have ruined servers. Mindless zerglings would protest this but if people really knew what roaming/havocing groups brought to a BL they would say otherwise.

You are completely missing the point, the source of your karma/wxp zerg stems from WXP, reducing the gain from WXP is only telling the zerg that you need to grind even harder to farm that “golden invader title.”

“It would” is too much of a strong word, no, it is probably, “would not change a thing”. Here’s the problem, if you get lesser WXP, then it means that the zerg will group up even more to get WXP from other people, or just drive up the frequency of capping something.

If you don’t like the zerging, please do your gvg inside the obsidian sanctum. You are ruining game modes.[/quote]

As a former guild member i thought you understood WvW but someone lied to me

Reverence.6915:

There’s nothing wrong with zerging. The zerg meta will form naturally in any large scale pvp mode. Regardless of mechanics. The idea that a zerg will be rewarded less than a few roamers goes against ANet’s philosophy for this game. It’s a bad idea that encourages selfish behaviour and reduces server cooperation.

Like I said earlier, we flip structures not for wxp or karma, but for PPT. Play to win, not for rewards.

Ok maybe you and you’re server don’t have problems that many other servers are having. I guess if you have seen as many times as many of us have, someone or groups saying oh let them take that don’t worry about it, we will just take it back and get more wxp/whatever. You would be just as sick from it. Is that not selfish behavior and reducing server cooperation.
Also, if you’re playing to win not for rewards, why are u even posting here what do you care.

Papers if there was a money spot you just hit it! Oo yeah good stuff man agreed

rorynis.3218:

rorynis.3218:

If you recall before the karma trains and WXP, WvW was about the fights and in some cases the ppt. People dont WvW for the loot. Making lesser rewards for the karma trains would bring back what WvW SHOULD be all about. Karma Trains and Ranks in this game have ruined servers. Mindless zerglings would protest this but if people really knew what roaming/havocing groups brought to a BL they would say otherwise.

You are completely missing the point, the source of your karma/wxp zerg stems from WXP, reducing the gain from WXP is only telling the zerg that you need to grind even harder to farm that “golden invader title.”

“It would” is too much of a strong word, no, it is probably, “would not change a thing”. Here’s the problem, if you get lesser WXP, then it means that the zerg will group up even more to get WXP from other people, or just drive up the frequency of capping something.

If you don’t like the zerging, please do your gvg inside the obsidian sanctum. You are ruining game modes.

As a former guild member i thought you understood WvW but someone lied to me [/quote]

I find this to be remarkably funny. If you actually are from my guild, you should bother to read my guild’s name. Likewise the ridiculous comments about ppt is silly. It is about server coverage and I find the idea of pvd to be silly.

Beating down the enemy, stealing cap points (fortified), causing enemies to lose their waypoints are my goals. Rewarding those people with a legitimate wxp karma reward is the least we should have.

LoneWolfie.1852:

rorynis.3218:

rorynis.3218:

If you recall before the karma trains and WXP, WvW was about the fights and in some cases the ppt. People dont WvW for the loot. Making lesser rewards for the karma trains would bring back what WvW SHOULD be all about. Karma Trains and Ranks in this game have ruined servers. Mindless zerglings would protest this but if people really knew what roaming/havocing groups brought to a BL they would say otherwise.

You are completely missing the point, the source of your karma/wxp zerg stems from WXP, reducing the gain from WXP is only telling the zerg that you need to grind even harder to farm that “golden invader title.”

“It would” is too much of a strong word, no, it is probably, “would not change a thing”. Here’s the problem, if you get lesser WXP, then it means that the zerg will group up even more to get WXP from other people, or just drive up the frequency of capping something.

If you don’t like the zerging, please do your gvg inside the obsidian sanctum. You are ruining game modes.

As a former guild member i thought you understood WvW but someone lied to me

I find this to be remarkably funny. If you actually are from my guild, you should bother to read my guild’s name. Likewise the ridiculous comments about ppt is silly. It is about server coverage and I find the idea of pvd to be silly.

Beating down the enemy, stealing cap points (fortified), causing enemies to lose their waypoints are my goals. Rewarding those people with a legitimate wxp karma reward is the least we should have.[/quote]
Your words make no sense but im going to bed. also this is dale, rorynis nighty night

wopapers.3184:

I think people should actually read a post and think about it and understand what it says before they post. Or is that to much to ask

I read it pretty well. He is proposing a blanket nerf to zergs, and I am saying no.

wopapers.3184:

Reverence.6915:

There’s nothing wrong with zerging. The zerg meta will form naturally in any large scale pvp mode. Regardless of mechanics. The idea that a zerg will be rewarded less than a few roamers goes against ANet’s philosophy for this game. It’s a bad idea that encourages selfish behaviour and reduces server cooperation.

Like I said earlier, we flip structures not for wxp or karma, but for PPT. Play to win, not for rewards.

Ok maybe you and you’re server don’t have problems that many other servers are having. I guess if you have seen as many times as many of us have, someone or groups saying oh let them take that don’t worry about it, we will just take it back and get more wxp/whatever. You would be just as sick from it. Is that not selfish behavior and reducing server cooperation.
Also, if you’re playing to win not for rewards, why are u even posting here what do you care.

If you have an issue with your server’s WvW style, perhaps it’s time to switch servers. Or else, organise your server’s WvW guilds together and hammer out your server’s core philosophies and fix your issues. Stop using other server’s successes as an excuse. Work our your own problems.

You are part of the problem. Not the solution.

slamb.4781:

So i was thinking would people still Zerg / Karma train if there where no / less rewards?

The thought is that an objective be worth X amount of WXP and Karma and the more people in the Area of the event such as taking a Camp and or tower receive a portion of the WXP / Karma. So the more people in the Zerg the less WXP and Karma an individual player would receive.

for example,

If a camp is worth 1000 WXP and 4 players take it they receive 250 WXP each
and if 20 players take the same camp they each only receive 50 WXP each

this could also roll over on to loot as well such as less players that kill a Lord better chance for higher tier loot.

It should have been a proportional reward from the start, but that would require more effort.

The argument that it would alienate pugs in that folks wouldn’t want others around is really a bogus argument when you consider the rally system. Huge reason for not wanting others around, but here we are with it still in the game.

slamb.4781:

So i was thinking would people still Zerg / Karma train if there where no / less rewards?

The thought is that an objective be worth X amount of WXP and Karma and the more people in the Area of the event such as taking a Camp and or tower receive a portion of the WXP / Karma. So the more people in the Zerg the less WXP and Karma an individual player would receive.

for example,

If a camp is worth 1000 WXP and 4 players take it they receive 250 WXP each
and if 20 players take the same camp they each only receive 50 WXP each

this could also roll over on to loot as well such as less players that kill a Lord better chance for higher tier loot.

If they take away rewards for capping things, they better make loot bags drop a green+ item every time. Right now, taking keeps/towers is the only thing propping up WvW in the sense that I would be broke if we didn’t get those rewards.

It would just force me to PvE to have money, which I wouldn’t do, I’d rather just leave the game.

Aeonblade.8709:

slamb.4781:

So i was thinking would people still Zerg / Karma train if there where no / less rewards?

The thought is that an objective be worth X amount of WXP and Karma and the more people in the Area of the event such as taking a Camp and or tower receive a portion of the WXP / Karma. So the more people in the Zerg the less WXP and Karma an individual player would receive.

for example,

If a camp is worth 1000 WXP and 4 players take it they receive 250 WXP each
and if 20 players take the same camp they each only receive 50 WXP each

this could also roll over on to loot as well such as less players that kill a Lord better chance for higher tier loot.

If they take away rewards for capping things, they better make loot bags drop a green+ item every time. Right now, taking keeps/towers is the only thing propping up WvW in the sense that I would be broke if we didn’t get those rewards.

It would just force me to PvE to have money, which I wouldn’t do, I’d rather just leave the game.

PRetty much took the words from my mouth.. As someone who only WvW’s I don’t want to see rewards reduced ANYWHERE across the board..

I am primarily a Roamer who don’t give a crap about PPT or WXP. – I DO care about the gold/karma/badges useful for actually having gear to WvW with on my toons.

They should boost the rewards for small teams and solo players rather than “nerfing” zerg rewards.

Straegen.2938:

They should boost the rewards for small teams and solo players rather than “nerfing” zerg rewards.

One sentence. Simple solution. I like it.

1- GW2 philosophy is that everyone participating in an event gets a reward
a) So no, Anet is not going to divide event rewards according to participants
b) So no, Anet is not going to give better rewards because less people took part in an activity

2- Karmatraining is a problem on certain servers at certain times
a) It’s up to players on that server/time to change it if they don’t like it
Reversing a PvD/Karmatrain mentality is not going to be easy. It will take time and effort. But it is up to the player to change it though outreach/explanations/formation of new players.

3- WvWers want rewards too
Made somewhat +10 gold pieces out of karma training a whole evening (6-7 hours)
Got -3 gold pieces out of defending a whole evening
a) the way defense is rewarded is way under attack rewards… not only in terms of WxP/Karma/loot, but also in the way it is awarded. (attacker get gold for jumping in the circle last minute, defender get nothing if they didn’t kill an ennemy or repair a wall/door during defense event)

4- This is a game. Play it as you want, find the server that answer your desires, and let others have fun with it the way they want. Even when rewards were low, we saw karma trains… More now than then, but still…

There’s already almost no reward for doing WvW as it is. Why in the world would you reduce it? WXP level? Ascended mats? Come on… who honestly cares?

What’s next? Cutting loot bag drops for guardians and necromancers because no other class can come close to tagging as many targets in a zerg?

More upgrades on a tower/keep = more of a reward for taking.

Lower rewards, let’s say… 50% of current for a “paper” tower. 150% of current for a t3 tower. Just examples here, the numbers could be changed to whatever, not here to do the math.

Harder the take, better rewards. Only makes sense right? It won’t stop trains, but it may slow them down.

There is a negative to nerfing them as well. Jim PvE Hero never does WvW, but hears a quick way to get levels on an alt. There is that small chance that he likes WvW and becomes a regular every day.

/shrug

People will still zerg regardless of the rewards. People zerg because it feels “safer”.

style.6173:

People will still zerg regardless of the rewards. People zerg because it feels “safer”.

People zerg because it’s effective. People zerg because it gets things done. People zerg for large scale fights.

WvW was much simpler when Golems and siege were not on the trading post and you didn’t expect a reward for sneezing on something.

Reverence.6915:

style.6173:

People will still zerg regardless of the rewards. People zerg because it feels “safer”.

People zerg because it’s effective. People zerg because it gets things done. People zerg for large scale fights.

This is true plus you need to zerg to counter the zerg.

dank.3680:

As much as I don’t like the zerg meta, we don’t need less rewards for ANY part of WvW.. We already get the shaft anyways..

Very much true, I have been running yaks for like an hour to upgrade a tower in EB to get it to T3 and just recently noticed I am getting nothing at all for doing it. No exp, No WxP, nothing at all for getting the yak safely to its destination, thanks for the shadow nerf Bnet.

WvW is truely dying in this game. Sad to since most players consider it the only real End Game.

Zikory.6871:

Probably not, it would probably just start a long list of complaint threads. This would also start to alienate pug players as guilds will be less likely to allow others to play with them because of loot/WXP.

This is exactly what I thought about. Complaining on the forums as well as guilds running tag/pinless.

I don’t want to be yelled at because of people wanting less numbers so they get better loot or more WXP. That discourages teamwork and hurts the community.

Reverence.6915:

Eh, we don’t flip structures for wxp/karma. We flip it because it adds to our PPT.

In the early days of WvW, people would try to defend captured objectives, for PPT. You rarely see that happen now. The invaders just leave and let the other side recap so they can take it again later for more WXP.

Visiroth.5914:

Reverence.6915:

Eh, we don’t flip structures for wxp/karma. We flip it because it adds to our PPT.

In the early days of WvW, people would try to defend captured objectives, for PPT. You rarely see that happen now. The invaders just leave and let the other side recap so they can take it again later for more WXP.

If you want to play defending, move up to T3 or above. Higher tier servers actively play defense.

The karma train usually only comes out at the end of the week in a blowout. I usually view it as a good time to reward people like the scouts who pour in a lot of time standing around scouting the enemy or refreshing siege, and have missed out on fights and captures during the week they get a little reward back at the end of the week at least.

Zerg train out every day if your server and time of day can support it, it’s not about karma gain, but either ppt gain or just looking for fights and trying to control the enemy zergs in the map.

The game supports other game play, roaming, solo, small havok group, if you don’t like zerg or karma train then don’t join them. I don’t understand people wanting to cut the rewards in wvw when it’s already less rewarding than pve, and they already did cut rewards in wvw before.

At the end of the day we also don’t want to drive players away from wvw, we need to drive more people into wvw (I don’t care what the elitist say about not wanting pve players, wvw is about filling the maps with numbers not their egos).

Reverence.6915:

The zerg meta will form naturally in any large scale pvp mode. Regardless of mechanics.

You forgot body blocking. Body blocking really hinders zerging cause you can’t bump through eachother and attack 1 guy with 20.

Sirendor.1394:

Reverence.6915:

The zerg meta will form naturally in any large scale pvp mode. Regardless of mechanics.

You forgot body blocking. Body blocking really hinders zerging cause you can’t bump through eachother and attack 1 guy with 20.

Everyone switches to their range weapon….

You were saying?

DivineBeing.2086:

Sirendor.1394:

Reverence.6915:

The zerg meta will form naturally in any large scale pvp mode. Regardless of mechanics.

You forgot body blocking. Body blocking really hinders zerging cause you can’t bump through eachother and attack 1 guy with 20.

Everyone switches to their range weapon….

You were saying?

No line of sight, because bodies are blocking the way… your point?

Sirendor.1394:

Reverence.6915:

The zerg meta will form naturally in any large scale pvp mode. Regardless of mechanics.

You forgot body blocking. Body blocking really hinders zerging cause you can’t bump through eachother and attack 1 guy with 20.

So you’ll have a group of 20 warriors running together…? It won’t kill the zerg meta at all. It’ll just kill the game.

Sirendor.1394:

DivineBeing.2086:

Sirendor.1394:

Reverence.6915:

The zerg meta will form naturally in any large scale pvp mode. Regardless of mechanics.

You forgot body blocking. Body blocking really hinders zerging cause you can’t bump through eachother and attack 1 guy with 20.

Everyone switches to their range weapon….

You were saying?

No line of sight, because bodies are blocking the way… your point?

No line of sight? Seriously? As if we don’t already have enough line of sight issues when there is a twig standing in front of you…. :/

Sirendor.1394:

No line of sight, because bodies are blocking the way… your point?

So who is going to calculate this? Server or your computer?

karmatrains a typical NA thingy not my cup of tea very boring and dont see the use of it ?