Guild Wars 2

I just came up with a solution!

Since the whole mega server thing in wvw is essentially just to fix the NA mess, why not move forward with that for NA and leave EU the way it is?

EU has its issues, but nowhere near the problems of NA.

Then people who prefer community-based wvw can go to EU and then the rest can stay with NA.

Win-win.

And over a period of time we can see which type is more robust.

Jayne.9251:

Since the whole mega server thing in wvw is essentially just to fix the NA mess….

How do you come to that conclusion?

I think that throwing more people ( = Megaservers) at the problems won’t solve them but inevitably lead to the complete death of that game mode.

How about we go back and make smaller but skilled groups count?
For that the tools have to work = siege, structures. Also stability changes need to be partly reverted, condis need to be looked at, OP skills need to be removed.
That is a lot of work but it would make wvw fun again.

ETA: Coverage problems would partly solve themselves when the bigger group wouldn’t automatically win.

zinkz.7045:

Jayne.9251:

Since the whole mega server thing in wvw is essentially just to fix the NA mess….

How do you come to that conclusion?

The bulk of the complaints about population disparity over the past three years have come from NA (and the whole stacking issue).

EU was/is fine — one server usually tries to stack, and the rest just don’t care enough about ppt and look for fights

And looking at the folks responding in these threads, it seems more EU players (that I recognize) are more server-oriented than NA servers.

EU is fine because the wvwer are spread out into multiple servers. its not the same with NA The gaps between tiers tend to be 100pts vs 25pts in EU. Swapping server will not fix the issues since everyone has friends/guilds tided to their server.

Maybe it’s because I started out on NA – but I do care for PPT !!
Well, what should I say?! I love stuff and a lot of numbers.

But honestly: I don’t mind losing our towers/keeps every day but not defending is karma train for me – best fights are mostly around objectives (with me on siege – I’m completely unselfish with that!!).

And yeah, servers matter to me as long as they’ve got character.

ETA: I once swore that as long as I’m on a server they won’t be ticking with 0 – that was no good idea; to flip camps for 6 hours straight as the only person from that server online But I did it – with 5 groups of 5 chasing me over all maps.

Oh I do defense. It’s my favourite aspect of wvw. But I don’t do it for ppt.

I do – PPT really matters to me but in an equal fight, kind of – don’t know if you know what I mean – usually if a server is better but has got no night cappers they will lose their stuff during the night but regain everything (PPT wise) during prime – but maybe that also had to do with bloodlust (warpoints per stomp) which is now gone.
So nightcappers didn’t mean too much in bronze/silver EU.
But honestly, if you want to know “how good” a server is look at the PPT during prime time. If they tick with <100 but win the whole week regardless they don’t really deserve that win in my opinion. But megaservers are no solution for that. EU will always have dead times – and we live with that.

ETA: We’re lucky that our tiers aren’t locked; it doesn’t matter that much what rank a server is.

Jayne.9251:

zinkz.7045:

Jayne.9251:

Since the whole mega server thing in wvw is essentially just to fix the NA mess….

How do you come to that conclusion?

The bulk of the complaints about population disparity over the past three years have come from NA (and the whole stacking issue).

EU was/is fine — one server usually tries to stack, and the rest just don’t care enough about ppt and look for fights

I see the opposite, NA especially T1 for a time, was the closest thing to a competitive matchup in this game, NA complained about stale matchups, EU complained about nightcapping, because for most of the game NA had better coverage and more stable matchups, whilst in EU it was far more common to have matches decided by servers ticking silly amounts off-peak.

I agree most don’t care about PPT, including me, but that is because the game is not fit for purpose, “winning” consists of PvDoor / Avoiding fights / getting up at 4am, rather than actual fighting in a supposed mass scale PvP mode, the reality is the game has lost many, many, more players than still play, in large part because of flawed the system is with the imbalanced populations/coverage, solving that is not an NA issue, over the history of the game it has been a bigger EU problem.

Jayne.9251:

And looking at the folks responding in these threads, it seems more EU players (that I recognize) are more server-oriented than NA servers.

These threads are not representative, the are a microscopic proportion of players, and as with every other thread of this type it is those who think they are going to lose something that are more inclined to post.

As for server-orientated, I don’t see it, I have three accounts, and on every server (EU) the number of WvW players who have been on that server the entire game is a minority, take FSP, there are many players from SFR & Deso, players from Piken, AG, Gunnars, etc (half of which were not at these servers originally either), most fighting guilds have swapped servers multiple times in this game, PPT zombies all bandwagon to whichever is number 1 zombie PPT server, server loyalty or community is for the minority.

Nor is “community” unique to a server type system like you seem to think, EVE Online has a megaserver with alliances, and its community is far stronger with much more depth than GW2’s will ever be.

I think the truth is inbetween.
Most people I knew on EU didn’t transfer to a higher PPT server. Or if they did they transfered to a lower ranked server soon after (that both NA and EU).
2 of the 3 servers I’ve been on (EU) had a community and a “character” – it’s hard to maintain that. But usually if not too many people transfer either to or away a community will build up. If done with an “alliance” system these guilds would have to get along with each other which can be tricky at times, so in the end the same guilds would form alliances over and over and we would basically have servers again.
Or did I get something wrong?

The Eu side has a choice of national and international servers, their tends to be more ‘pride’ from national servers, the international servers, can get all sorts of transfers from everywhere, compared to them.

Causing a lot of NA players transferring to EU is the perfect recipe for creating the nightcapping problem that we see right now in NA. And don’t forget the SEA and Oceanics transferring in.

It’s the global nature of the NA servers that makes it the way it is, and all this idea would do is make the EU servers global.

If you want EU to stay somewhat like it is now, it might be a good idea to delete the thread before Anet gets a look at it.

zinkz.7045:

I see the opposite, NA especially T1 for a time, was the closest thing to a competitive matchup in this game, NA complained about stale matchups, EU complained about nightcapping, because for most of the game NA had better coverage and more stable matchups, whilst in EU it was far more common to have matches decided by servers ticking silly amounts off-peak.

I think you might want to reevaluate your definitions.

Stale matches are not competitive. It means you’re getting the exact same match every week, which leads to the complaints and boredom.

EU was/still changes every week. Our former T1 EU server that was never moving from its top seat was recently unseated and is now down in T6 or so. When is the last time you saw that happening in NA?

Most of this centers on the community’s surrounding those matchups. Each has its own unique identity.

zinkz.7045:

in large part because of flawed the system is with the imbalanced populations/coverage, solving that is not an NA issue, over the history of the game it has been a bigger EU problem.

Disagree. If you’ve been around since launch, you know that the bulk of the complaints came from NA about stacking. There were thread upon thread asking people to join T1 NA servers. Guilds went down into the lower tiers and actively recruited good players, leaving the lower tiers barren.

That didn’t happen so much in EU. Yep guilds jumped from server to server, but it was mostly for fights and they self-organized.

People complained about nightcapping, yes, but we still saw a healthy and robust WvW scene in EU with changing matches each week.

You didn’t see that in NA .. at all.

zinkz.7045:

As for server-orientated, I don’t see it, I have three accounts, and on every server (EU) the number of WvW players who have been on that server the entire game is a minority, take FSP, there are many players from SFR & Deso, players from Piken, AG, Gunnars, etc (half of which were not at these servers originally either), most fighting guilds have swapped servers multiple times in this game, PPT zombies all bandwagon to whichever is number 1 zombie PPT server, server loyalty or community is for the minority.

Yup, you do get the ppt folks and the gvg guilds .. but if you talk to every one of those gvg guilds, you’ll find they identify at least one server as “home.”

If you haven’t discovered that each server has its own unique community then perhaps you haven’t spent time getting to know the people there and simply join the big blob on maps.

I know people from various servers all over EU tiers. Each of them love their server for various reasons.

I happen to like Piken because I know that even if we’re rank 2 or rank 10, there will be a set group of people who will continue to come out and play and make the community fantastic. There’s one thing that is funny about Piken and makes it unique: The more we’re winning, the less the vets show up. When we’re losing, our vets come out in droves. I adore that about Piken, keeps us scrappy

zinkz.7045:

Nor is “community” unique to a server type system like you seem to think, EVE Online has a megaserver with alliances, and its community is far stronger with much more depth than GW2’s will ever be.

And EVE has an incredible reputation for players who like to “game” others, so that in effect, the game is more than just pixels and more of a mind game. No thanks. I’ve seen enough of that effort tried here and it’s toxic.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Causing a lot of NA players transferring to EU is the perfect recipe for creating the nightcapping problem that we see right now in NA. And don’t forget the SEA and Oceanics transferring in.

It’s the global nature of the NA servers that makes it the way it is, and all this idea would do is make the EU servers global.

If you want EU to stay somewhat like it is now, it might be a good idea to delete the thread before Anet gets a look at it.

Ugh Mr. Kuru. You’re right. I hadn’t considered that most existing players love the old-style WvW and will flock to maintain it if changed on one side and not the other.

However, wouldn’t that speak volumes on player preference?

I think it might be a worthwhile test.

Jayne.9251:

I think you might want to reevaluate your definitions.

Stale matches are not competitive. It means you’re getting the exact same match every week, which leads to the complaints and boredom.

No thanks my definitions are fine, you can play the same matchup every week and if the sides are equally strong you get a competive matchup, as opposed to what has happened in EU a lot, where servers with vastly different off-peak coverage end up against each other, and most people simply take the view we play at primetime, then don’t bother we let them PvDoor.

Jayne.9251:

EU was/still changes every week. Our former T1 EU server that was never moving from its top seat was recently unseated and is now down in T6 or so. When is the last time you saw that happening in NA?

And look how “competitve” it is, T1,3,4,7,8,9 were done days ago, T5 is the only close matchup.

Jayne.9251:

Disagree. If you’ve been around since launch, you know that the bulk of the complaints came from NA about stacking. There were thread upon thread asking people to join T1 NA servers. Guilds went down into the lower tiers and actively recruited good players, leaving the lower tiers barren.

I didn’t mention stacking, I stated nightcapping/coverage which is not the same thing as the NA T1 stacking issue, for nightcapping/coverage EU have complained plenty, from the servers who became “number 1” becasue of it like Viz, SFR, Deso, etc, to those that only seem to appear at when everyone else is in bed like BB.

Jayne.9251:

Yep guilds jumped from server to server, but it was mostly for fights and they self-organized.

Yes because for most people server loyalty or server community is not of the importance you seem to place on it, guilds jumped servers based on fights, PPT zombies jumped servers to whichever server meant they could PvDoor in peace, PvE players jumped to servers they knew would finish top of their league in tournies to get skins to play Barbie, many roamers moved to wherever they thought they’d get decent fights and so on.

Jayne.9251:

People complained about nightcapping, yes, but we still saw a healthy and robust WvW scene in EU with changing matches each week.

You didn’t see that in NA .. at all.

Matches changing every week does not equate to being healthy, WvW has not been healthy for a very long time, the idea that a game mode that is basically so fundamentally flawed that most people consider it broken is ‘healthy’ is certainly a unique view.

As for Piken’s “fantastic” community, I guess that is in the eye of the beholder, I’m pretty sure if I asked certain members of AH what they thought of Piken it would not be complimentary.

Jayne.9251:

If you haven’t discovered that each server has its own unique community then perhaps you haven’t spent time getting to know the people there and simply join the big blob on maps.

I know people from various servers all over EU tiers. Each of them love their server for various reasons.

The majority of people who have played WvW on EU don’t really give a flying kitten about their server, a small minority like you do, that is the reality, and that is why so many are not on their original server or stopped playing WvW long ago.

Jayne.9251:

And EVE has an incredible reputation for players who like to “game” others, so that in effect, the game is more than just pixels and more of a mind game. No thanks. I’ve seen enough of that effort tried here and it’s toxic.

That is the nature of the game, now you may not like that, but it is in fact part of the depth of the gameplay there that is part of the reason why the community is much stronger than GW2 which is far more casual, where the gameplay has very litte consequence or meaning unlike EVE, which results in a community that works on a very shallow basis, sunshine, teddy bears & inane pleasantries does not equate to a community, but if you like that sort of thing fine, but the idea that servers are the only way to have a “community” is wrong.

I agree with zinz, servers don’t make communities, people make communities. Whether Anet keeps the servers or implements a WvW megaserver, it doesn’t matters, so long as they provide a way for players to group up and play together. That is all that is important here.

Players are claiming that servers are the only way communities will stay together and that they somehow provide a level of server pride unattainable any other way, but there is absolutely no proof of this. So long as players can join together and fight together, and have something to fight for (server, faction, whatever), then it doesn’t matter how it is implemented.

The fact of the matter is, the majority of servers do not have large WvW communitites, so most of the good fights only occur on the higher tier servers. And those on the lower tiers who are interested in WvW will likely transfer to the higher servers. So it is clear that this large selection of servers to choose from is not working.

So lets stop with this idea that the megaserver will destroy communities, that is rubbish. The problem is not the megaserver. If it was large PvE guilds would not be able to function at all. And lets stop with this server pride rubbish too. All the server does is represent the side you fight for, which can just as easily be replaced by a faction/alliance. So that pride will still be there.

Providing the megaserver can be implemented properly, allowing groups to join forces efficiently, and providing the WvW mechanics can be adjusted to fit a multi-instanced BL set up, I see no issue with changing to a megaserver system. I and others have said many times, EotM is not bad because of the megaserver, it is bad because of the mechanics in place there. If they implemented the megaserver into the current WvW borderlands as they are now, they too would end up the same as EotM, because the mechanics in place there are not suited for a megaserver set up. So implementing a megaserver would need substantial changes to the WvW mechanics.

I don’t care if they keep the server set up or change to a megaserver. What I care about is player population balance, which is a big issue for most servers right now. I also care about how rewards are given out in WvW, not for me but for how it affects player behaviour. And I care about how games are fought and won in WvW.

Population is not the only issue with WvW, but it is one of the biggest issues right now. Whatever Anet has planned for WvW, I hope it is enough. Because in my opinion the changes required, to make it the game mode what it should be, will be more than just a few small tweaks here and there.

Jayne…you know we don’t like each other very well, but I have to agree on this.

I’ve been on sfr for years now. A server that used to have the biggest influence caused by guilds. Before people left because they were tired of fighting blobs 3v1 all the time in t1 you could easily have 3 or 4 guild raids on EVERY border organising their stuff.
During normal pug raids you could easily have 75-80% players from organized WvW guilds, which made sfr insanely strong in fighting and the strongest server of all in my eyes; ppt or not. No matter where you went you could be sure that people knew how to play, how to follow, and how to fight with balls. Everyone worked together, helped each other and knew each other.
And this is the reason why it will always be my most loved community.
The fighting spirit is what made us strong. There is no challenge in rolling over your enemy 2v1. Or the good old “we don’t need siege, we simply kill them once they arrive”
And then there came the bandwagoners…but that’s another chapter

You could never ever have something that beautiful by mega servers or by forcing only a couple of guilds into one alliance.

So I say yes to server pride!

Better focus on how we can play the game and let us decide with whom. If you make the game work there won’t be a reason to care about too low population.
You have to work on the causes, not the consequences.

zinkz.7045:

As for Piken’s “fantastic” community, I guess that is in the eye of the beholder, I’m pretty sure if I asked certain members of AH what they thought of Piken it would not be complimentary.

Ahahhahahaha .. oh this single sentence explains everything.

There’s a reason why every server on EU has a definite impression of AH (edited to be more polite).

It also explains why you have no connection to your server’s community. I’m sorry for that, you’re missing a lot.

Entenkommando.5208:

Jayne…you know we don’t like each other very well, but I have to agree on this.

Lol we don’t? Sorry if I’ve made you upset by my posts, I really have no issue with you at all.

Rin.1046:

So lets stop with this idea that the megaserver will destroy communities, that is rubbish. The problem is not the megaserver. If it was large PvE guilds would not be able to function at all. And lets stop with this server pride rubbish too. All the server does is represent the side you fight for, which can just as easily be replaced by a faction/alliance. So that pride will still be there.

Do you do defense at all?

Jayne.9251:

zinkz.7045:

As for Piken’s “fantastic” community, I guess that is in the eye of the beholder, I’m pretty sure if I asked certain members of AH what they thought of Piken it would not be complimentary.

Ahahhahahaha .. oh this single sentence explains everything.

There’s a reason why every server on EU has a definite impression of AH (edited to be more polite).

It also explains why you have no connection to your server’s community. I’m sorry for that, you’re missing a lot.

I realise logic isn’t your strength, but it explains nothing, unless you like to make silly assumptions, I’m not in AH (nor have ever been) I was simply using them as an example that what you may consider as a “wonderful community” is rather subjective, I could of used what certain people from the one guild that can play on Piken have said about Piken on other servers TS, or why a certain ex-Piken player who scouted a lot left because the way they felt part of the “wonderful community” at Piken treated them and so on, or even the rather more general view that Piken is an example of what happens to the quality of a server that settled in Silver so long.

Jayne.9251:

Rin.1046:

So lets stop with this idea that the megaserver will destroy communities, that is rubbish. The problem is not the megaserver. If it was large PvE guilds would not be able to function at all. And lets stop with this server pride rubbish too. All the server does is represent the side you fight for, which can just as easily be replaced by a faction/alliance. So that pride will still be there.

Do you do defense at all?

Not sure why this is relevant, but yes I defend. I don’t play WvW for the loot, I play to help my side win.

Rin.1046:

Not sure why this is relevant, but yes I defend. I don’t play WvW for the loot, I play to help my side win.

Well that’s the thing.

How many defenders do you know in EoTM?

The group of people you’ve worked with to defend a map to help your side win will be randomized each week with the megaserver. There will be no guarantee you get on the same maps together. Even alliances will leave some of those players out, especially if they don’t belong to a big guild.

How many guilds do you know of that are defense only? How many detach a few players to actively scout? Your mileage may vary, but in my experience it’s the solo players and small guilds that do this — not the big ones. The big ones want their guild together to raid properly.

And if you’re placed into a megaserver model, you may be a trusted defender and scout on your server, but mashed in with a bunch of people who don’t know you? They won’t respond to your call outs, particularly as alliances shift and change. If nobody responds to scout call outs, people will just stop doing it. It’s unrewarding as it is to not have your “team” respond.

Lose scouts and you wind up getting EoTM 2.0.

It’s that simple really.

Anyhow, per my OP, if the megaserver IS really what the bulk of players want, then there’s no harm making NA the mega and keeping EU as is. And then over time the more successful model will emerge. Nothing to lose.

I agree with this idea. Except the other way around: make EU the megaserver.

Lord Kuru.3685:

I agree with this idea. Except the other way around: make EU the megaserver.

Naw it’s NA that has the population issues, not EU.

We’re fine in EU.

Jayne.9251:

Well that’s the thing.

How many defenders do you know in EoTM?

The group of people you’ve worked with to defend a map to help your side win will be randomized each week with the megaserver. There will be no guarantee you get on the same maps together. Even alliances will leave some of those players out, especially if they don’t belong to a big guild.

How many guilds do you know of that are defense only? How many detach a few players to actively scout? Your mileage may vary, but in my experience it’s the solo players and small guilds that do this — not the big ones. The big ones want their guild together to raid properly.

And if you’re placed into a megaserver model, you may be a trusted defender and scout on your server, but mashed in with a bunch of people who don’t know you? They won’t respond to your call outs, particularly as alliances shift and change. If nobody responds to scout call outs, people will just stop doing it. It’s unrewarding as it is to not have your “team” respond.

Lose scouts and you wind up getting EoTM 2.0.

It’s that simple really.

Anyhow, per my OP, if the megaserver IS really what the bulk of players want, then there’s no harm making NA the mega and keeping EU as is. And then over time the more successful model will emerge. Nothing to lose.

I understand your concern, but I do not believe that is down to the megaserver, I truly believe that is down to the way the EotM map works, its mechanics and what winning a match represents. You don’t earn PPT in EotM and the benefit of winning is not that great tbh, so most people go there to ktrain and not much else. Keeping locations in the borderlands is more important, as it has the biggest impact towards your server winning. It is this that makes the borderlands better, not because there is no megaserver.

Give the players something more meaningful to fight for, and a more noticable way to win the war, and they will do what is needed to win. There is no such mechanic in EotM, and victory there feels meaningless so people don’t bother. You will of course always get the ktrainers, you get them in the BL’s, but I do not think it will be that big an issue.

EU population is the lowest I’ve ever seen, barely any queues and outnumbered on all borders, apart from EB ofc.

I’m sure it’s similar elsewhere.
Deso has no prime time guilds, Commanders who only tag when they’re bored, only one GvG guild, no other scheduled WvW Guilds raiding, all that’s left is some zombie PPT Guild, but nobody cares about that anymore, other than maybe BB right now.

If Anet thinks implementing megaservers as the solution to fix the current wvw imbalance then we should expect to see a lot of problems in the near future.

CrimsonNeonite.1048:

EU population is the lowest I’ve ever seen, barely any queues and outnumbered on all borders, apart from EB ofc.

I’m sure it’s similar elsewhere.

If you are outnumbered everywhere it’s not like that on the other servers

Anatolian Turk.4057:

If Anet thinks implementing megaservers as the solution to fix the current wvw imbalance then we should expect to see a lot of problems in the near future.

We don’t know what Anet thinks yet, everything discussed here, related to the megaserver, is speculation.

As to the potential problems, yes, I suspect we will get a few bugs and issues to start with. That is to be expected. But we have problems now, and big problems at that, so something needs to be done. There is no guarantee the megaserver will be a good solution, but there is also no guarantee it will be a bad one either. It is just some peoples opinions that it may improve things.

Rin.1046:

As to the potential problems, yes, I suspect we will get a few bugs and issues to start with. That is to be expected. But we have problems now, and big problems at that, so something needs to be done. There is no guarantee the megaserver will be a good solution, but there is also no guarantee it will be a bad one either. It is just some peoples opinions that it may improve things.

Let me see, with Hot I shouldn’t be able to port in enemy structures owned by us anymore. on the borderlands that are the only waypoints that work for me though. That since HoT. It might seem like a minor annoyance but in fact it’s a big one and the main reason why I’m EB, although there the WPs are always contested as well since the NPCs love to attack mobs.
Don’t know if it’s really that hard to understand (for someone who doesn’t really play wvw) but stuff needs to work in wvw.

Edit: forgot to point out why I wrote this: bugs in wvw are for me thrice as bad as in any other game mode. By leaving them in place it’s another reason for me not to play that game mode.

Entenkommando.5208:

CrimsonNeonite.1048:

EU population is the lowest I’ve ever seen, barely any queues and outnumbered on all borders, apart from EB ofc.

I’m sure it’s similar elsewhere.

If you are outnumbered everywhere it’s not like that on the other servers

Players and Guilds are quitting the game, and most people don’t care about PPT at least.

Jayne.9251:

I just came up with a solution!

Since the whole mega server thing in wvw is essentially just to fix the NA mess, why not move forward with that for NA and leave EU the way it is?

EU has its issues, but nowhere near the problems of NA.

Then people who prefer community-based wvw can go to EU and then the rest can stay with NA.

Win-win.

And over a period of time we can see which type is more robust.

Oh hell no. None of the NA I’ve talked to wants megaservers either. It’s just that people on lower populated servers don’t want to pay to move so they’d rather have megaservers. And yet they lose their minds every time server merges are mentioned. Megaservers are server merges, but poorly done server merges.

EU servers are just as bad off as NA servers as far as I know? A friend of mine is on FSP and their population dropped incredibly aswell making WvW dead-ish so it’s not just low tier in EU.

Jayne.9251:

I just came up with a solution!

Since the whole mega server thing in wvw is essentially just to fix the NA mess, why not move forward with that for NA and leave EU the way it is?

EU has its issues, but nowhere near the problems of NA.

Then people who prefer community-based wvw can go to EU and then the rest can stay with NA.

Win-win.

And over a period of time we can see which type is more robust.

I’m in full agreement Jayne! This is a really really great idea!

@Jayne

Sorry to interrupt your discussion on your proposed solution, but did you get a chance to see my other Topic thread?

Reboot the Base Map Mechanic & Population

Read the first post…it’s been heavily modified since being 1st posted as an alternative solution to our Current Problems in WvW.

It’s not perfect, but at least it allows players to go where the fun is without sacrificing Server Pride & Team Identity.

Maybe you can take some ideas from that thread.

Now back to your discussion…sorry for interjecting.