Guild Wars 2

electronvolt.7541:

I can’t speak for all low pop. servers, but I know that basically everyone who does WvW on Crystal Desert regularly has a good amount of server pride (considering that we don’t do super well, you’d have to…); …

Good on you, CD. But the demographic that contributes a large dose of “pride” to your server is neither unique to the GW2 ecosystem (not contingent on server selection) nor dependent on game design.

An acknowledgement and a tip of the hat to the healthy (and well meaning) pride communities on Crystal Desert, but c’mon, very little of it has to do with the server, WvW, or anything remotely connected with the architecture or meta.

Don’t discount the guilds (some of which have external populations in the mid thousands). It’s the people… not the server.

Excellent point OP. But, there already is little to no server identity. You are correct at the harm this causes, but we have already passed the qualitative critical point, so the quantitative harm is minimal. We have diminishing returns on the damage done by decisions like this today.

Back in the ‘good old days’ (I’ll withhold the name of the one true RvR gem…), people picked a server and that was it. You never once communicated with the enemy. This allowed the imagination to build up your enemy and build a strong… VERY strong sense of server identity. And TBH this was half the fun. Really, for those that played the original RvR games think about it. All you knew the enemy by was their guild tag and play style. You could communicate with a selection of them in the forums (but it was 100% unmoderated trash talking).

This proves what this game has been outside of PvE (which is pretty strong—- MINUS the stupid RNG paradigm) is nothing more then a big giant Red team Blue team Halo match.

The old MMO days are long gone. The only hope currently is… well you can do the Google search!

ionix.9054:

<snipped>
Those days are long gone. Only hope is… well you can do the Google search!

Very well said. I liked your entire post.

I have already begun redirecting my planned expenditures for gems toward other things in my economic basket of suitable substitutes. And I do not think I am alone.

That said, after several weeks of consulting with my elders and reviewing ancient scrolls, I am not convinced that immediate solace has arrived.

On the other hand, I am hoping someday my desires will be unchained.

zortek.9607:

Good on you, CD. But the demographic that contributes a large dose of “pride” to your server is neither unique to the GW2 ecosystem (not contingent on server selection) nor dependent on game design.

An acknowledgement and a tip of the hat to the healthy (and well meaning) pride communities on Crystal Desert, but c’mon, very little of it has to do with the server, WvW, or anything remotely connected with the architecture or meta.

I agree completely that it isn’t unique or a special snowflake of a community. I think most other servers probably have something similar, especially the smaller ones.

However: communities exist in the ecosystem that they form in. You can’t make the claim, online /or/ offline, that a community exists separate of the architecture it forms around. They exist /because of/ the server system. As a counterpoint: my first MMO used a fluid server system (you chose every time you logged in), and there was nothing even remotely similar. Communities formed around external guide-sharing/discussion/etc. sites, guilds, and groups of friends.

With a server system, you basically are ensuring that people are interacting with the same group of people regularly. The megaserver system apparently will be pushing that, so I think ANet understands that fact: but I think the point people are making is that the current setup could cause a disconnect between the PvE community of a server and its WvW community. It doesn’t hurt PvE much because outside of very limited amounts of content, PvE doesn’t require a lot of consistent coordination of groups of more than 5. (Teq. and wurm are the exceptions) However, it hurts WvW because the communities are no longer 1-1: so a person can’t necessarily WvW with the people they PvE with, and WvW can’t draw on a larger community of people who don’t WvW much, but like doing it sometimes.

electronvolt.7541:

However: communities exist in the ecosystem that they form in. You can’t make the claim, online /or/ offline, that a community exists separate of the architecture it forms around. They exist /because of/ the server system.

Convincingly argued. I would posit that we have moved to violent agreement.

To bring this full circle, I venture that if the infrastructure is conceptually preserved or improved (that being an ecosystem or architecture that is nurturing or conducive to sustained community formation) then the form that it takes may not be relevant (setting aside expectations and resistance to change).

To expand on this point — we don’t yet know ANet’s plans for the creation or maintenance of a sustainable battle triumvirate. In theory, we currently have three color-coded factions that are populated by their rankings in the trebles. There have been rumors of a shakeup in the color assignments but nothing definitive has been published.

What we know of as “servers” today could very well morph into factions based upon the current trebles paradigm (and I believe there is suitable room for algorithmic support for instance preference that hinges up to what has been recently published).

Population distribution/density and coverage has long been a weakness of the present system. A faction based model would alleviate many of those concerns. That said, I fear (absent support for factional communications) we are robbing Peter to pay Paul.

If EotM is any indicator for future expectations, we may very well be witnessing a (poorly communicated) transition from one “community paradigm” to another.

Ultimately, given imperfect information and a cloudy crystal ball, I remain in opposition any “sky is falling” premise. That said, I would accept that the sky is illusory.

electronvolt.7541:

However: communities exist in the ecosystem that they form in. You can’t make the claim, online /or/ offline, that a community exists separate of the architecture it forms around. They exist /because of/ the server system. As a counterpoint: my first MMO used a fluid server system (you chose every time you logged in), and there was nothing even remotely similar. Communities formed around external guide-sharing/discussion/etc. sites, guilds, and groups of friends.

Well put. But it doesn’t have anything to do with servers as such. Servers dictate one thing, and one thing only: the size of the community. The community can only grow to the extent that the server lets it. Once the server runs out of space, the community peaks. If you had three factions playing against each other in WvW instead of a multitude of servers, those factions would essentially just be very large servers. The larger the server, the less likely significant differences in coverage across time zones are to occur, because the game draws upon a larger population to make up the difference. By contrast, each unnecessary division you create within the population makes the impact of differences in coverage across time zones that much more significant.

Servers have to do with size. And size does matter. But size has very little to do with the capacity for communities to develop. Take a look at EotM. Despite the supposedly large size of each “server” (i.e. all players from a single color), communities cannot form because of the random nature of the format. Community has to do with choice and incentives, not size. If you give the player the power to choose where to play and whom to play with, and provide proper incentives to remain there, strong communities form. If you don’t, you end up with EotM.

ionix.9054:

Excellent point OP. But, there already is little to no server identity. You are correct at the harm this causes, but we have already passed the qualitative critical point, so the quantitative harm is minimal. We have diminishing returns on the damage done by decisions like this today.

Back in the ‘good old days’ (I’ll withhold the name of the one true RvR gem…), people picked a server and that was it. You never once communicated with the enemy. This allowed the imagination to build up your enemy and build a strong… VERY strong sense of server identity. And TBH this was half the fun. Really, for those that played the original RvR games think about it. All you knew the enemy by was their guild tag and play style. You could communicate with a selection of them in the forums (but it was 100% unmoderated trash talking).

This proves what this game has been outside of PvE (which is pretty strong—- MINUS the stupid RNG paradigm) is nothing more then a big giant Red team Blue team Halo match.

The old MMO days are long gone. The only hope currently is… well you can do the Google search!

First rule of MMOs: the best experience is always in the distant past or the near future.

Epistemic.8013:

First rule of MMOs: the best experience is always in the distant past or the near future.

Ahh not really, just remember all those fights between Horde and Ally.
All those memes that were created. All those videos. With deleting of MU topics, Anet actually killed a chance that something like this will grow in GW2. Something Lege… wait for it… dary. (see what I did?)

Naz.2607:

gennyt.3428:

If you have server pride you need to step away from the computer for a while.

It’s the same concept as a sports team. Of course there’s going to be server pride….

If there’s something that makes even less sense than server pride it’s pride in a local sports team. At least with your server you can affect the outcome.

Hule.8794:

All those memes that were created. All those videos.

All that homophobia and bigotry.

Basket of Boxes.1976:

Server pride? When Anet introduces free transfers or a new season people hop from server to server like the world select menu is a bouncy castle.

I don’t think that the Mega Server will effect WvW that much but I hope I am wrong and it somehow helps smaller or dead servers recruit. Sometimes people don’t want to play on the bottom because PvE is empty, well that isn’t a problem any more.

Actually, several people have never left their server, and the people hopping servers are usually the people who have already hopped servers in the past. So yes, there is a thing as server pride.

On SBI, we have had a core group stay through 2 exodus now. If there wasn’t any server pride, would we have survived either of them?

Andrew Clear.1750:

On SBI, we have had a core group stay through 2 exodus now. If there wasn’t any server pride, would we have survived either of them?

SBI has always been my favorite opponent. As an enemy, SBI was (on balance) free-spirited and jovial while at the same time classy and serious.

Of course, I remember when we could (and would) id and chat up our opposition.

We had our tense moments but the rivalry never felt toxic or hateful — even when random plebs would spoil about with their trollish nonsense. The JQ/SBI rivalry always felt sporting and good humored.

Just waxing nostalgic…

loquacious.2915:

I would like to see them add server chat so people could still coordinate things for WVW in PVE.

Yeah a lot of people are nervous about doing map calls in LA (or wherever) when the possibility exists that there are 20 people from the opposing server there. This would be an easy solution.

Skroo.1560:

loquacious.2915:

I would like to see them add server chat so people could still coordinate things for WVW in PVE.

Yeah a lot of people are nervous about doing map calls in LA (or wherever) when the possibility exists that there are 20 people from the opposing server there. This would be an easy solution.

Even if you had /m go to everyone in the map and /t go to everyone in your “server”, there’s plenty of conversations now that one person is in map chat and the other in team chat, we’ve all gotten used to the fact that /m and /t do the same thing in PvE and WvW

When my guild, which recently transferred servers to avoid the boredom of silver league, runs in WvW, we don’t talk about the other servers playstyle and how to counter it. We talk about the other servers’ GUILDS and how to beat them, at least those that don’t hide behind walls.

Andrew Clear.1750:

On SBI, we have had a core group stay through 2 exodus now. If there wasn’t any server pride, would we have survived either of them?

A better question: if servers weren’t the pivotal mechanic in WvW, would that exodus have taken place to begin with?

electronvolt.7541:

zortek.9607:

Good on you, CD. But the demographic that contributes a large dose of “pride” to your server is neither unique to the GW2 ecosystem (not contingent on server selection) nor dependent on game design.

An acknowledgement and a tip of the hat to the healthy (and well meaning) pride communities on Crystal Desert, but c’mon, very little of it has to do with the server, WvW, or anything remotely connected with the architecture or meta.

I agree completely that it isn’t unique or a special snowflake of a community. I think most other servers probably have something similar, especially the smaller ones.

However: communities exist in the ecosystem that they form in. You can’t make the claim, online /or/ offline, that a community exists separate of the architecture it forms around. They exist /because of/ the server system. As a counterpoint: my first MMO used a fluid server system (you chose every time you logged in), and there was nothing even remotely similar. Communities formed around external guide-sharing/discussion/etc. sites, guilds, and groups of friends.

With a server system, you basically are ensuring that people are interacting with the same group of people regularly. The megaserver system apparently will be pushing that, so I think ANet understands that fact: but I think the point people are making is that the current setup could cause a disconnect between the PvE community of a server and its WvW community. It doesn’t hurt PvE much because outside of very limited amounts of content, PvE doesn’t require a lot of consistent coordination of groups of more than 5. (Teq. and wurm are the exceptions) However, it hurts WvW because the communities are no longer 1-1: so a person can’t necessarily WvW with the people they PvE with, and WvW can’t draw on a larger community of people who don’t WvW much, but like doing it sometimes.

This^^

I realize that a lot of you are calling for the end of servers all together. I’ve also noticed a reoccurring theme with these people: they don’t like the community they are in (AKA they have nothing to lose.)

If you feel like the current communities are invalid or failures, then sure, why not destroy them?

I believe quite the opposite. There are many servers that have built up strong communities, that bridge PvE and WvW. To reject these communities because you deem them to be failures is your prerogative, but don’t expect the members of these communities to agree with you.

These communities have a very legitimate gripe. The thing that brings them together (server identity across PvE and WvW) is getting damaged. Megaservers will encourage PvE to develop in a way incompatible with WvW, and incompatible with the existing server communities.

Now, Anet could keep Megaservers AND maintain server identity in PvE. They just need to design some systems to do such (like server mates get a different color tag, or PvE goals that servers work towards together). I just hope they are willing to make the effort to do that.

loquacious.2915:

I would like to see them add server chat so people could still coordinate things for WVW in PVE.

THAT is a really good idea. I don’t see any problems with identification due to megaserver technology. That feeling of identification with my server was build in WvW and not in PvE. All servers are the same in PvE, not regarding population, but WvW really gives you this community sense. Serverchat would be great for withdrawing new soldiers from PvE for your homeworld or organising events without the enemy knowing.

titanlectro.5029:

I realize that a lot of you are calling for the end of servers all together. I’ve also noticed a reoccurring theme with these people: they don’t like the community they are in (AKA they have nothing to lose.)

If you feel like the current communities are invalid or failures, then sure, why not destroy them?

Come on now, you have to allow people to express their point of view, regardless of their situation. Accusing people of being biased – even if they are – is a terrible argument and it cuts both ways. It’s just as easy to claim that the server pride folk have an interest in maintaining the current infrastructure because they’re the ones who profit from it – which of course goes doubly if you’re on a winning server and have “beastgate” or some such written in your signature (or GoM, like yourself, which has also been winning as of late if I’m not mistaken). Regardless of which side of the fence you’re on, it’s a nonsense argument that doesn’t get you anywhere.

I also don’t accept the premise that existing communities would be destroyed wholesale if a “serverless” system was implemented. Or that there are no compromises between that and the current system. That, essentially, is an assumption on your part. It’s easy to get attention by shouting that the sky is falling, but it doesn’t make for a good argument.

ManaCraft.5630:

Come on now, you have to allow people to express their point of view, regardless of their situation.

How was I telling people that they were not allowed to express their their opinion? Perhaps you should have quoted more of my post because this is what I actually said:

titanlectro.5029:

To reject these communities because you deem them to be failures is your prerogative, but don’t expect the members of these communities to agree with you.

Some communities have put a lot of hard work over many months into their communities, and don’t want to see that work threatened. Other servers have fallen apart and literally anything else would be an improvement.

Everyone is always biased, it is a fact of life. However we still try to communicate and make arguments. My argument is simple: Some of us have over a year of hard work that could be lost due to this change, and therefore we are against it. We like our community, yes that is a bias, but that does not make it invalid.

ManaCraft.5630:

I also don’t accept the premise that existing communities would be destroyed wholesale if a “serverless” system was implemented. Or that there are no compromises between that and the current system. That, essentially, is an assumption on your part. It’s easy to get attention by shouting that the sky is falling, but it doesn’t make for a good argument.

When did I say that no compromises would be possible? In fact that is what I was arguing for!

titanlectro.5029:

Now, Anet could keep Megaservers AND maintain server identity in PvE. They just need to design some systems to do such (like server mates get a different color tag, or PvE goals that servers work towards together). I just hope they are willing to make the effort to do that.

It is easy to call things nonsense if you misrepresent them.

titanlectro.5029:

Everyone is always biased, it is a fact of life. However we still try to communicate and make arguments.

Exactly my point. Since everyone is on a server, everyone has “skin in the game” to at least some degree. Since we seem to agree on that, I can only add that I wish you were as upfront about acknowledging your own bias as you are about pointing out that of others.

ManaCraft.5630:

Andrew Clear.1750:

On SBI, we have had a core group stay through 2 exodus now. If there wasn’t any server pride, would we have survived either of them?

A better question: if servers weren’t the pivotal mechanic in WvW, would that exodus have taken place to begin with?

Yes, there would have been.

Do you think that people who play ESO are going to sit in the same campaign the entire time? Nope, they will transfer to.

Some people think the grass is greener, some want to get away from large zergs, etc.

SBI used to be top tier. Did people transfer from us to Kaineng because it was a better server? Nope.

The rankings are the pivotal mechanic. FA lost a lot of guilds right before the season, because they didn’t want to roll the lower tiered servers. Rankings are based on coverage.

If they would’ve locked you into a server permently when you created a character (like FFXI did when it launched) then what would have happened?

Andrew Clear.1750:

SBI used to be top tier. Did people transfer from us to Kaineng because it was a better server? Nope.

Sure it was. Or rather, the prospects of a more vibrant WvW community were better, with many guilds, including large ones like WM, announcing their intent to transfer there. If WvW hadn’t been server based, and you could play on the same maps regardless of which world you were on, many of the transfers that occurred from SBI to other servers – including my own – would simply have been unnecessary.

Andrew Clear.1750:

The rankings are the pivotal mechanic.

You mean the server based rankings?

Andrew Clear.1750:

If they would’ve locked you into a server permently when you created a character (like FFXI did when it launched) then what would have happened?

I honestly don’t know. But I think locking transfers entirely is perhaps a bit extreme – although I do agree that players need incentives to fight for whatever server they are on, given that that’s the system we currently have.

ManaCraft.5630:

Andrew Clear.1750:

SBI used to be top tier. Did people transfer from us to Kaineng because it was a better server? Nope.

Sure it was. Or rather, the prospects of a more vibrant WvW community were better, with many guilds, including large ones like WM, announcing their intent to transfer there. If WvW hadn’t been server based, and you could play on the same maps regardless of which world you were on, many of the transfers that occurred from SBI to other servers – including my own – would simply have been unnecessary.

So, they transfered to the bottom, because the grass was greener? Or they had this thought, that they were so kitten good, they could take a low tier server and take them to t1? Which, is what they really wanted to do. They wanted that challenge, and they failed at it, but they got pretty close.

Andrew Clear.1750:

So, they transfered to the bottom, because the grass was greener?

Well that’s one way of putting it. Another would be that they (and many others, including myself) transferred off of SBI because there no longer was any grass. With larger “serverless” populations, a few guilds moving around from time to time only equates to a few patches disappearing here and there. By contrast, with the population being divided across a multitude of servers, each population subset is small enough that a few guilds leaving can literally undermine the entire field.

The result? Snowball exodus. All this has happened before, and will happen again.

@Andrew Clear.1750 & @ManaCraft.5630:
Concerning the Warmachine move to Kaineng, you are both babbling nonsense.

From the outside, you are entitled to your nonsense. But your nonsense is myopic, ill-informed, and do not correlate with insider facts or the events at the time.

Your argument is not bolstered by your misrepresentation of Warmachine.

That’s fair enough of course. The point isn’t to speculate about the motivations of any one guild in particular, and it’s irrelevant to the discussion anyway. Rather, the only point that needed to be made is that communities in general do not willingly pull themselves apart. External circumstances often play a role, and the infrastructure is part of what makes some of those circumstances possible (or at least more so than they would have been otherwise).

Krumbotor.9064:

loquacious.2915:

I would like to see them add server chat so people could still coordinate things for WVW in PVE.

THAT is a really good idea. I don’t see any problems with identification due to megaserver technology. That feeling of identification with my server was build in WvW and not in PvE. All servers are the same in PvE, not regarding population, but WvW really gives you this community sense. Serverchat would be great for withdrawing new soldiers from PvE for your homeworld or organising events without the enemy knowing.

if you think this is a good idea you might like to up vote my Reddit on the same topic http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/22c3gn/world_chat_useful_when_megaservers_kick_in/

All extra visibility of this issue!

I always considered PvE to be the war-effort in support of WvW.

The megaserver completely wipes this concept and make PvE seem like a way to boost myself and not “friends” on the map. In fact, if I can gain something without friends gaining it, too, that helps my world in WvW.

So I’ve only read 1 page of this. And admittedly skipped through a bit of the megaserver stuff…so forgive me if this was mentioned, but couldn’t this be solved if there were separate chat channels for your home server? would be like map chat but only seen by people on your specific server.

ehjhey.1894:

So I’ve only read 1 page of this. And admittedly skipped through a bit of the megaserver stuff…so forgive me if this was mentioned, but couldn’t this be solved if there were separate chat channels for your home server? would be like map chat but only seen by people on your specific server.

I believe it is inevitable that the whole “server” concept will disappear. There will be no “select a world” at account startup, eventually. It will just randomly allocate one but it won’t matter because it won’t have any effect in the game.

The trick is how will they get this to make sense WvW-wise?

amberlin.5124:

@Andrew Clear.1750 & @ManaCraft.5630:
Concerning the Warmachine move to Kaineng, you are both babbling nonsense.

From the outside, you are entitled to your nonsense. But your nonsense is myopic, ill-informed, and do not correlate with insider facts or the events at the time.

Your argument is not bolstered by your misrepresentation of Warmachine.

Well, why would WM transfer off? For the fights? Doubtful. Kaineng sure wasn’t facing anyone with good coverage in WM’s play time.

Look, guilds are jumping ship, and normally its for stupid reasons. SBI was T1, we had a strong population. People started leaving (and WM went to a tier that was dead, why? They wanted no competition? They wanted the challenge of moving it up? Plus, I never specifically mentioned WM in a post, so something I said must’ve been true about them, since you accused me of talking about 1 certain guild (which I wasn’t even referencing)), and then free transfers were ending and a lot of people jumped ship.

Guess where almost all of those people ended up at eventually? T1 again. Go figure.

FA just didn’t lose a ton of guilds because their community was weak. Hell, they should’ve stayed cause HoD was gonna give them a fight. Maybe they actually left because they knew they might not get 1st, and didn’t want to work kitten it and would just rather get those fights in t2, without have to fight so hard for ppt. (and yeah, HoD is stacked, they might have been able to beat FA before FA lost its guilds).

But, people have the right to switch servers, but it does affect both servers involved. And, it is normally the same guilds that keep jumping servers.

So much overreacting.

Jocksy.3415:

Main problem is that many people send message in their PvE server about upcoming WvW events, which helps get new players in WvW.

Would I go on PvE megaserver map to say : “big rush from ABC on XYZ borderland at 10 today! Hope to see you there!” or “Introduction to WvW for ABC server on X map on [date and time]”. No Wouldn’t want the ennemy to know we are getting ready for something.
Sometimes we have a keep attacked, not enough to defend, send a few people on the PvE maps to gather troops, and people do come and help out.

This ability to easily reach out to PvE population is going to be taken from us.

Even without megaserver, u can have players from other servers guest into your server.
The only solution to the issue u pose is to add “Server chat”
Only the players from the specific server can chat within it.

ehjhey.1894:

So I’ve only read 1 page of this. And admittedly skipped through a bit of the megaserver stuff…so forgive me if this was mentioned, but couldn’t this be solved if there were separate chat channels for your home server? would be like map chat but only seen by people on your specific server.

Wouldn’t it be fun for gold sellers to be able to target the entire server at once. There’s isn’t anything I’d like more. And a constant stream of useless chatter from everyone else on the server. Won’t that be simply amazing?

Svarty.8019:

ehjhey.1894:

So I’ve only read 1 page of this. And admittedly skipped through a bit of the megaserver stuff…so forgive me if this was mentioned, but couldn’t this be solved if there were separate chat channels for your home server? would be like map chat but only seen by people on your specific server.

I believe it is inevitable that the whole “server” concept will disappear. There will be no “select a world” at account startup, eventually. It will just randomly allocate one but it won’t matter because it won’t have any effect in the game.

The trick is how will they get this to make sense WvW-wise?

They won’t. WvW as it is now is on it’s deathbed. It’s just a matter of time. In a year, once megaserver has rolled out, how will anyone be able to tell what server they’re on? For instance, a low population server like Kaenig is probably going to end up seeing mostly people from other servers. How can they maintain a server identity?

Hello Andrew,

I was in Warmachine 2012/2013. Served as a commander before I left.

Jang wanted to bring a T8 server to T1. This was exactly what he said in guild meetings and forum. Many times, before leaving SBI and arriving in Kaineng.

He moved to Kaineng, formed a coalition of NA, OCX and SEA forces to do that. Kaineng went to T2 at its height.

FW

Andrew Clear.1750:

ManaCraft.5630:

Andrew Clear.1750:

SBI used to be top tier. Did people transfer from us to Kaineng because it was a better server? Nope.

Sure it was. Or rather, the prospects of a more vibrant WvW community were better, with many guilds, including large ones like WM, announcing their intent to transfer there. If WvW hadn’t been server based, and you could play on the same maps regardless of which world you were on, many of the transfers that occurred from SBI to other servers – including my own – would simply have been unnecessary.

So, they transfered to the bottom, because the grass was greener? Or they had this thought, that they were so kitten good, they could take a low tier server and take them to t1? Which, is what they really wanted to do. They wanted that challenge, and they failed at it, but they got pretty close.