Guild Wars 2

Rangers have nice water fields.. :p

Eng should be higher on your roaming/small group lists. Good in 1vX, very fast camp flipper, great dual support (cond removal/healing/cc) and aoe cond for small groups.

Hard countered by necro but the rest of the classes are at the very least an even fight.

WvW just has a lot… and I mean a LOT of bad engineers running around. That’s kinda to be expected though. Hardest class to learn in an environment full of zerglings/outnumber or run types and all…

Engie should be higher. Many classes depend on how big the zerg/group warfare is on your server. I seriously think that when designing classes, ANet thought WvW would be a whole lot less populated (and SPvP a whole lot more populated).

Here is what makes the Engie so useful especially in smaller groups and roaming. The issue with the engineer and most classes is that they were not designed to scale to zerg sized warfare.

1. Versatility. You can always send an engie to handle most any “I need someone to volunteer” jobs. They have tools for just about any small encounter. You will have skill scarcity even in 12-16 man zergs and that is where the engineer shines in bigger combat. In smaller combat, you are guaranteed to have skill scarcity and your small team never quite knows what combination of characters it will face. The engineer is phenomenal at being able to adapt and bring skills the team needs to face different small teams.
2. Fields. You will get a lot of fields out of a single toon and a lot of combos: from heal, might, weakness, and stealth. Greatly improves utility in small groups.
3. Perma weakness. Extremely good in small groups to weaken targets as you take them out 1 by 1.
4. Vulnerability. Ditto. Engie is the best (or one of the best) at laying down vulnerability on one or two targets.
5. TEAM condition cleansing. Done right, the engineer can cleanse conditions of backline much better as they can place turrets, have a nice AE fumigate on the e-gun etc. Not great at cleansing their OWN conditions but quite good for others. Scaling is an issue but it works great for small teams.
6. Solid Healing Help. The bigger the zerg the more blasting off water is how you heal, but in smaller settings the engineer can really keep a group up with elixir filled bombs, a mobile water field (short), healing turret and the e-gun field. A LOT of GROUP healing but it doesn’t scale as well when you zerg.
7. Pulling/Immobilizing. Engie is quite effective in small groups at “catching” runners, pulling people off walls and otherwise creating favorable situations for quickly killing a single player with toolkit.
8. 3x AE. People often forget that the engineer can hit 15 targets an attack with grenades specced with grenadier. In an outnumbered small zerg v larger zerg that is extremely useful especially for poison and chill. Engies are great at “clearing the trash” of AI oriented pets, minions etc so the other AE can hit players.
9. Blindness. In small groups, I can’t tell you how many times having so many ways to put blind on an opponent has made a slightly unbalanced fight winnable.
10) 1500 range grenades. Don’t underestimate the ability to launch grenades that hit 15. Again, it works very well up to about 16 people per side. If you can’t immediately cleanse my slowing you down, I can often split a team or catch one of the essential people in your team and send them running back from base.

Engie should rank higher for roaming and small zerg. Big zerg and well you have 4 classes that scale and the rest don’t.

Again, the engineer is exceptional in smaller group fights because it can react to so many different types of enemy makeup and provides a lot of utility in a single class. It does not scale as well to larger zergs (most classes really don’t and that is the fundamental design flaw leading to these rankings). BUT, in even 12-16 person zergs, a good engineer is going to be high on my list of things I want because they pack so many options in and you still have scarcity in those numbers.

Current Meta zerg:
The biggest issue with the hammertrain meta is once the driver (or maybe alt driver) is defeated the fight is effectively over against all but the best guild groups.
Guardian
Warrior
Mesmer (veil bot)
Ele (staff support)
Necro
No thieves/rangers/engineers allowed

Current anti-meta zerg:
Generally the anti-meta zerg is much less reliant on a single driver since the primary focus of the group is to sidestep the hammer train dropping soft cc and dps until they gas out of stability then hard CC and drop big nukes.
5-7 Ele (staff dps)
1 per group Guardian (empower/cleanse/stab bot), not really needed except against extremely well coordinated groups that can keep their own stab up a long time.
1-2 Thieves (venomshare and shortbow blast bot)
2-3 Necros (boom removal, dps)
Warrior (banner bot), not needed against bad groups. Could run a backline zerker longbow to fit in, but generally much less effective than the other very mobile ranged dps
Mesmers (veils and nulls)
Nade engineers could be ok, but facing the retal that organized groups bring really limits them.
Rangers not required

Current anti anti-meta zerg
Ranged condi builds of all types
D/D thieves
Mesmers for pulls and nulls

Solo/small group roam (outnumbered against bad, equal numbers against good players)
Mesmer
Thief
Engineer
Ranger

Havoc (camp flipping, yakslapping)
Thief
Everyone else can do this as well, but they are way behind thieves.

The Maguuma anti-meta strategy relies too much upon superior positioning. It involves giving up territory to lure enemies into perfect spots for it to be most effective.

uhm, if you want spammage of soft CC in a AOE manner, then rangers are one of the better choices out there. Especially since most pets can easily apply 5-7sec chill and dogs can apply chill+cripple.

If Rangers make any part of a players list, they have lost all credibility in my opinion. The Ranger class in WvW is grossly under powered in almost all play styles. It boggles my mind that some players can continue on about how good the class is in the face of overwhelming disbelief from the majority of WvW players.

Prysin.8542:

uhm, if you want spammage of soft CC in a AOE manner, then rangers are one of the better choices out there. Especially since most pets can easily apply 5-7sec chill and dogs can apply chill+cripple.

Warriors have by far the best CC spam in the game. Even eles and engis have better CC spam than a ranger. Pet abilities are useless in large scale fights. They die too quickly to AoE and their activated ability often takes several seconds to fire off.

KeeZee.7312:

Meglobob.8620:

I am surprised no one, not even for just a laugh has organised a 30 strong zerg of pure Necro Minion Mancers.

Ie… 30 Necro’s with 6 minions each, so that would be a 180 strong minion army.

Could face off with 30 Rangers and there 150 spirits + 30 pets (and a another 30 to swap too)

It would probably make a amusing, funny youtube video.

Necro Army!

Could you imagine your zerg coming across a enemy zerg like that in WvW, it would be like WTF?!?

It was done on JQ. The necro minions were melted and then we watched in horror as the class with no escapes tried to run away only to be quickly caught and killed.

If you blinked you would have missed it.

Sounds like they should have gone 30 Lich Powermancer and staggered their autos to run a steady stream at the blob.

Everyone always forgets the butterscotch ripple.

Bombsaway.7198:

Engie should be higher. Many classes depend on how big the zerg/group warfare is on your server. I seriously think that when designing classes, ANet thought WvW would be a whole lot less populated (and SPvP a whole lot more populated).

Here is what makes the Engie so useful especially in smaller groups and roaming. The issue with the engineer and most classes is that they were not designed to scale to zerg sized warfare.

1. Versatility. You can always send an engie to handle most any “I need someone to volunteer” jobs. They have tools for just about any small encounter. You will have skill scarcity even in 12-16 man zergs and that is where the engineer shines in bigger combat. In smaller combat, you are guaranteed to have skill scarcity and your small team never quite knows what combination of characters it will face. The engineer is phenomenal at being able to adapt and bring skills the team needs to face different small teams.
2. Fields. You will get a lot of fields out of a single toon and a lot of combos: from heal, might, weakness, and stealth. Greatly improves utility in small groups.
3. Perma weakness. Extremely good in small groups to weaken targets as you take them out 1 by 1.
4. Vulnerability. Ditto. Engie is the best (or one of the best) at laying down vulnerability on one or two targets.
5. TEAM condition cleansing. Done right, the engineer can cleanse conditions of backline much better as they can place turrets, have a nice AE fumigate on the e-gun etc. Not great at cleansing their OWN conditions but quite good for others. Scaling is an issue but it works great for small teams.
6. Solid Healing Help. The bigger the zerg the more blasting off water is how you heal, but in smaller settings the engineer can really keep a group up with elixir filled bombs, a mobile water field (short), healing turret and the e-gun field. A LOT of GROUP healing but it doesn’t scale as well when you zerg.
7. Pulling/Immobilizing. Engie is quite effective in small groups at “catching” runners, pulling people off walls and otherwise creating favorable situations for quickly killing a single player with toolkit.
8. 3x AE. People often forget that the engineer can hit 15 targets an attack with grenades specced with grenadier. In an outnumbered small zerg v larger zerg that is extremely useful especially for poison and chill. Engies are great at “clearing the trash” of AI oriented pets, minions etc so the other AE can hit players.
9. Blindness. In small groups, I can’t tell you how many times having so many ways to put blind on an opponent has made a slightly unbalanced fight winnable.
10) 1500 range grenades. Don’t underestimate the ability to launch grenades that hit 15. Again, it works very well up to about 16 people per side. If you can’t immediately cleanse my slowing you down, I can often split a team or catch one of the essential people in your team and send them running back from base.

Engie should rank higher for roaming and small zerg. Big zerg and well you have 4 classes that scale and the rest don’t.

Again, the engineer is exceptional in smaller group fights because it can react to so many different types of enemy makeup and provides a lot of utility in a single class. It does not scale as well to larger zergs (most classes really don’t and that is the fundamental design flaw leading to these rankings). BUT, in even 12-16 person zergs, a good engineer is going to be high on my list of things I want because they pack so many options in and you still have scarcity in those numbers.

Your description is correct, but you should remember that a limited number of traits and utility skills are available. In fact, you have to choose one or two of the points listed above.

Moreover, engi isn’t much effective in roaming because he lacks good escape (=/= perma swiftness). The only skill for this purpose is rockets boots, and you need to burn a slot for it. Unlike War, Mes (with clones) and Thief, engi has almost no escape.

And I strongly disagree on the efficiency of grenades vs zerg.

Why ?

Grenades are useful to spamm conditions ; but in the current meta, rune of melandru are very popular, and with the -40% condi duration, your dps is very low.

Ret is very, very dangerous against engi. You’re right, you can hit up to 15 ppl on one hit. But remember that the damage of each grenade is about 300/400. And ret hits between 200 and 300. So you deal more damage to you than to your opponents

When I try to play grenades, it’s like : “hit” “hit” “hit” “heal” "**wait for hp regen** “hit” “heal”. It’s not that effective…

Straegen.2938:

If Rangers make any part of a players list, they have lost all credibility in my opinion. The Ranger class in WvW is grossly under powered in almost all play styles. It boggles my mind that some players can continue on about how good the class is in the face of overwhelming disbelief from the majority of WvW players.

Prysin.8542:

uhm, if you want spammage of soft CC in a AOE manner, then rangers are one of the better choices out there. Especially since most pets can easily apply 5-7sec chill and dogs can apply chill+cripple.

Warriors have by far the best CC spam in the game. Even eles and engis have better CC spam than a ranger. Pet abilities are useless in large scale fights. They die too quickly to AoE and their activated ability often takes several seconds to fire off.

People like this and the rest of the majority who think Rangers are underpowered make me lol. I’ll keep chasing groups of 3 or 4 away solo while I think to myself “and Rangers are ‘underpowered’.”

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Straegen.2938:

If Rangers make any part of a players list, they have lost all credibility in my opinion. The Ranger class in WvW is grossly under powered in almost all play styles. It boggles my mind that some players can continue on about how good the class is in the face of overwhelming disbelief from the majority of WvW players.

Prysin.8542:

uhm, if you want spammage of soft CC in a AOE manner, then rangers are one of the better choices out there. Especially since most pets can easily apply 5-7sec chill and dogs can apply chill+cripple.

Warriors have by far the best CC spam in the game. Even eles and engis have better CC spam than a ranger. Pet abilities are useless in large scale fights. They die too quickly to AoE and their activated ability often takes several seconds to fire off.

People like this and the rest of the majority who think Rangers are underpowered make me lol. I’ll keep chasing groups of 3 or 4 away solo while I think to myself “and Rangers are ‘underpowered’.”

Rangers are fine for solo roaming even though I haven’t lost to one yet. The problem with them is that when you are running with an organized group they have no synergy. Whatever little benefit they can bring, whether it’s offensive/defensive boons, heals, or just pure damage, warriors, eles, guardians, and necros can do so much better.

Julie Yann.5379:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Straegen.2938:

If Rangers make any part of a players list, they have lost all credibility in my opinion. The Ranger class in WvW is grossly under powered in almost all play styles. It boggles my mind that some players can continue on about how good the class is in the face of overwhelming disbelief from the majority of WvW players.

Prysin.8542:

uhm, if you want spammage of soft CC in a AOE manner, then rangers are one of the better choices out there. Especially since most pets can easily apply 5-7sec chill and dogs can apply chill+cripple.

Warriors have by far the best CC spam in the game. Even eles and engis have better CC spam than a ranger. Pet abilities are useless in large scale fights. They die too quickly to AoE and their activated ability often takes several seconds to fire off.

People like this and the rest of the majority who think Rangers are underpowered make me lol. I’ll keep chasing groups of 3 or 4 away solo while I think to myself “and Rangers are ‘underpowered’.”

Rangers are fine for solo roaming even though I haven’t lost to one yet. The problem with them is that when you are running with an organized group they have no synergy. Whatever little benefit they can bring, whether it’s offensive/defensive boons, heals, or just pure damage, warriors, eles, guardians, and necros can do so much better.

I am sure you’re talking about ~15-25 man group but in a ~5man they can bring a lot synergy.

Our ranger gives us perma +~27% crit chance, perma swiftness, ~50% protection uptime (big deal for glassy burst make up), 4 AoE immobilizes, the ability to stick to targets with longbow + pierce and good persistent damage, and the ability to draw conditions from the whole group. It’s probably one of the hardest builds to play with all the different micromanaging but once their comfortable it’s quite amazing group synergy.

Julie Yann.5379:

Rangers are fine for solo roaming even though I haven’t lost to one yet.

See the problem right… fine for roaming but one has never beat you which makes them by admission not fine.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

People like this and the rest of the majority who think Rangers are underpowered make me lol. I’ll keep chasing groups of 3 or 4 away solo while I think to myself “and Rangers are ‘underpowered’.”

3-4 scrubs maybe… MAYBE. Two or more decent roamers will roll that ranger so fast you won’t even have a chance to think about running. I have NEVER seen a Ranger able to roll one of our group much less 3 or 4. In fact, few class/build/player combinations are capable of such destruction against decent players. I have not seen a recent ranger video pull that off. I have to say it… video or it didn’t happen.

aathomas.4638:

Our ranger gives us perma +~27% crit chance, perma swiftness, ~50% protection uptime (big deal for glassy burst make up), 4 AoE immobilizes, the ability to stick to targets with longbow + pierce and good persistent damage, and the ability to draw conditions from the whole group. It’s probably one of the hardest builds to play with all the different micromanaging but once their comfortable it’s quite amazing group synergy.

Spirit Build and/or warhorn?

I will be looking for your guild and rangers on the battlefield. First pro-Ranger that I know of to speak up in my tier… I thought we had punished them into oblivion.

necro aoe lasts longer and are more effective than the 1trick pony ele is currently.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Too clear up some confusion I would like to point out that when I named this post I had assumed people would take as in a ZvZ or 15+ vs 15+.

When it comes to small group roaming I strongly believe class does not matter, individual skill trumps all.

But a ZvZ is not a type of battle where your team needs just you to focus target but rather stick to your role and use specific skills when called for them. It is a test of group synergy and micromanagement, and there is simply no denying that some classes can do those specific roles better (and easier) then others.

ex) guardian vs ranger for support

Julie Yann.5379:

MrFluffy.9307:

1) guardian – best AoE support/sustain (group stability, protection, empowers, heals, AoE condition removal), forms the backbone of any solid group

2) warrior – best offensive support, FGJ gives AoE 3 stacks of might and fury, warhorn bug removes conditions from up to 10 people rather then 5, best CC in game with hammer. Also has access to best group revive (warbanner). Also best faceroll class in game, easily can be called most passive play-style class with auto stability, healing signet, etc.

3) elementalist – best backline class in general, meteor shower -> tornado massive = AoE crits, easy access to waterfields, great CC: static field and unsteady ground

(I say better then necro because cantrips give ele’s much more sustain and more room for error, also better mobility)

4) necromancer – in zergs the most common build seems to be power wells, great for holding chokes as well as AoE boon removal and blinds

5) mesmer – every guild group carries atleast 1-2 of these, mainly for veils, time warps, and nullfield. Mesmers lack in group support and DPS

6) thief – with venom share being buffed recently thieves have gotten more useful for offensive support but it’s still situational and since other classes can provide better support without having to give up as much traits/utility-wise I put thiefs as number 6. Thieves are also prone to CC as they are a class that has almost 0 stability.

7) engineer – light CC and grenades is about all they’ve got, conditions spamming a hammer-train is pointless since it gets cleared almost instantly. Engineers are prone to CC as they are a class that has almost 0 stability.

8) rangers – pet’s die in a heartbeat to AoE, rangers do no DPS and lack group support abilities

I’m looking forward to the responses, I feel my list is pretty accurate but let me know if you disagree lol! :P

That is the order of importance we look for when we assemble with our guild. Those defending Necro over Ele need to remember that giving your frontline water fields to blast will keep your group alive and ready to push again. That is the only reason Necro is below the Ele. As for rangers being last, I feel sorry for all you ranger folk out their but it is true. Your profession is less that useless in group fights, stick to solo roaming.

everything like that.

1. Wardian
2. Mesmalist
3. All other classes

Rangers, rangers, please no reason to get upset. Rather than be mad at others for pointing out the classes shortcomings, send feedback to Anet! The bottom line is, whether you are an excellent player or not, Ranger is just not that useful in the current WvW meta.

I don’t fault anyone for playing them, because they are fun to play, but an excellent ranger player would most likely be better off playing an excellent class as well imo.

Please continue to underestimate roaming necros, we appreciate all the free kills from overconfident opponents =)

GrandmaFunk.3052:

Please continue to underestimate roaming necros, we appreciate all the free kills from overconfident opponents =)

i refuse to estimate necros ever. They die, easily, all the time.

GWEN lol I just got it. Joke by Anet? I think so. Good one Anet, good one..

GWEN is the best at WvW.

Hammer trains are bad and simple to deal with. Roll through their pushes, kill backline, and then ruin the frontline. If the backline are silly enough to run with the frontline, force bombs on the edges of the frontline and watch as low sustain backliners die. Remember that a Hammer/Staff guardian has 0 leaps, so if you catch them in a bomb they’re in serious trouble. Literally every single hammer train dies in the exact same way. There’s also a difference between hammer train and balanced comp. A difference that the vast majority of players seem to misunderstand.

There’s a lot of posts misunderstanding the purpose of thieves, too. They’re a lot like necros in the sense that you focus backline when your group support isn’t necessary. As for what this support is, it typically consists of blast finishers in water fields and constant poison field coverage on regroups/down clumps. Venom share being more viable lately is a side bonus, although we haven’t tested it all that extensively.

Lot of people building their mesmers wrong, from what I can see thus far. I’ll give you a hint, there’s a LOT more that a mesmer brings to the table than veil, null, and time warp. Best examine their traits and weapon skills.

I would almost place backliners ahead of frontliners on the list. In the current meta, your backline needs to be absolutely rock-solid to succeed against the best guilds. The skill ceiling is also ridiculously high for those classes.

Flamu.2319:

ITT: Rangers trying to convince people they aren’t useless in a zerg

so true and sad

GrandmaFunk.3052:

Please continue to underestimate roaming necros, we appreciate all the free kills from overconfident opponents =)

The condi-bunker ones are a handful until players learn to manage them. Power ones are less scary than several other power built classes. Due to their lack of mobility it is really easy to gain distance and reset if a fight goes south.

Boonprot.6274:

Hammer trains are bad and simple to deal with. Roll through their pushes, kill backline, and then ruin the frontline. If the backline are silly enough to run with the frontline, force bombs on the edges of the frontline and watch as low sustain backliners die. Remember that a Hammer/Staff guardian has 0 leaps, so if you catch them in a bomb they’re in serious trouble. Literally every single hammer train dies in the exact same way. There’s also a difference between hammer train and balanced comp. A difference that the vast majority of players seem to misunderstand.

There’s a lot of posts misunderstanding the purpose of thieves, too. They’re a lot like necros in the sense that you focus backline when your group support isn’t necessary. As for what this support is, it typically consists of blast finishers in water fields and constant poison field coverage on regroups/down clumps. Venom share being more viable lately is a side bonus, although we haven’t tested it all that extensively.

Lot of people building their mesmers wrong, from what I can see thus far. I’ll give you a hint, there’s a LOT more that a mesmer brings to the table than veil, null, and time warp. Best examine their traits and weapon skills.

I would almost place backliners ahead of frontliners on the list. In the current meta, your backline needs to be absolutely rock-solid to succeed against the best guilds. The skill ceiling is also ridiculously high for those classes.

if the mesmer can manage to keep their clones up (which in a zerg setting is impossible) then it is possible for them to buff the zerg and do boon rip etc.

I’ve also seen some reflection builds work nicely but it’s nothing special.

Straegen.2938:

GrandmaFunk.3052:

Please continue to underestimate roaming necros, we appreciate all the free kills from overconfident opponents =)

The condi-bunker ones are a handful until players learn to manage them. Power ones are less scary than several other power built classes. Due to their lack of mobility it is really easy to gain distance and reset if a fight goes south.

If you have condi immunity then yes. Otherwise,I can apply a wild amount of chill.

But yeah, being underestimated owns. Stealth thieves are my biggest issue, but otherwise I can fairly easily go toe to toe with other classes and builds.

Thaddeus.4891:

6-8) Engineer, Thief, Rangers : They don’t bring something specific to the zerg. Everybody is welcome, but i don’t think that any guild group with specific build and profession would bring any of those.

A thief is essential for a good and organized guild group, like running way ahead of zerg and scouting. Primary casterkiller during GvGs, but needs to be a good kitten thief.

Cogbyrn.7283:

But yeah, being underestimated owns. Stealth thieves are my biggest issue, but otherwise I can fairly easily go toe to toe with other classes and builds.

I do know that when an unsuspecting player gets hit with SoS, the speed at which they die is staggering. Even better when they are with friends and Epidemic wipes the lot. I have seen necro/engi skirmish teams lay waste to very skilled players. Stack 2 or more condi builds in a group and even the best condi removal can be useless.

Im just returning to the game.
I never got into wvw, and I am trying now.

I have a guardian with full exotic, a zerker set and a soldier set.
full zerker trinkets.

I never found wvw rewarding enough, I am not sure what I can do to get more bags, and feel my time in there is worth it.

please help.

Skills, Gear, Weapon, and playtype would help me a lot.

Thanks.

Enyeez.2049:

Im just returning to the game.
I never got into wvw, and I am trying now.

I have a guardian with full exotic, a zerker set and a soldier set.
full zerker trinkets.

I never found wvw rewarding enough, I am not sure what I can do to get more bags, and feel my time in there is worth it.

please help.

Skills, Gear, Weapon, and playtype would help me a lot.

Thanks.

You don’t play WvW for rewards. That’s all.

Enyeez.2049:

Im just returning to the game.
I never got into wvw, and I am trying now.

I have a guardian with full exotic, a zerker set and a soldier set.
full zerker trinkets.

I never found wvw rewarding enough, I am not sure what I can do to get more bags, and feel my time in there is worth it.

please help.

Skills, Gear, Weapon, and playtype would help me a lot.

Thanks.

traits: 0/0/30/30/10
weapons: staff/hammer
utility skills: Stand your Ground, Hold the Line, and 3rd one is optional (wall of reflection isn’t a bad choice)
armour: PVT mixed with cleric’s w/ soldier runes equipped

^standard zerg guardian build

G > W > N > E > T = M > Eng > R

Thief should be higher – spammable AOE poison, spammable AOE weakness, spammable blast finisher, frequent blinds, boon strips, & caster killing machine even when tanky.

I haven’t even built for roaming and have solo’d numerous rangers, thieves, mesmers and warriors on my necro who is built for zerg fights. I think it’s hard to tell whats good at roaming as loads of people suck at roaming if i can beat them on a wellomancer zerg build (and im not that good) then how can you tell what is op and underpowered. Personally i think in the right hands and against average people all classes can roam some are just better at escaping.

Zerg is the most usefull class in the game, if you can have an even larger zerg also known as the blob. You are fine, can take the whole map without caring what professions are in it.