Guild Wars 2

UCF Knight.8095:

Queue this up as another fairly non-issue that will be complained about endlessly.

And I hope everyone with their personal solutions realize if they were implemented, there would be a new group of you on this site to complain about that.

Svarty.8019:

The solution to the downed state problem that doesn’t exist is to make it so banner doesn’t rez the lord.

..no. This is another tactic somewhat intelligent players use to their advantage, but people want taken out because they don’t know how to counter it.

Have a somewhat organized, intelligent group with you and this is never a problem.

Kryyg.8576:

Get rid of downed state in WvW, period.

This will allow smaller mans to fight large groups.

If everything is equal, a larger group should take down a smaller group. Everyone complaining wants everything to be equal and balanced so that no advantage can be acquired whatsoever, but small groups should be able to defeat large groups given the same skill?

That makes no sense.

Our group of 15-20 takes on larger groups of 40-50 all the time. We usually can hold those groups up for a good 10 minutes if not more easily before we are finally widdled down or are forced to retreat. On the opening engagement we can down about 10-15 of them while not losing a single person ourselves. The problem is that of those 10-15 we are able to only down a couple of them while the rest are power rezzed up by their back lines. The current downed state plays to the massive zerg right now. Smaller groups can’t keep up with the ability of the zerg to rez players.

I think allowing only out of combat players to res/heal downed players is a good start. Keep the rally mechanic though.

UCF Knight.8095:

TogoChubb.3984:

UCF Knight.8095:

Queue this up as another fairly non-issue that will be complained about endlessly.

And I hope everyone with their personal solutions realize if they were implemented, there would be a new group of you on this site to complain about that.

Anyone see the irony in this or is it just me? Oh well, have a nice day guys and good luck at reset tonight!!!!

No, feel free to share the irony with the rest of us.

Complaining about complainers…I chuckled a little…sorry nothing personal. You are right about the forum warriors are never going to be happy with any change even if it is exactly what they ask for. Case and point WxP….The FW’s kept pushing for a progression system and when it was implemented it caused massive zerging and then they complained about the zerging. FW’s need to stop and think about what they are complaining about versus just belly aching about everything.

Kryyg.8576:

This change would allow small groups to be competitive against large groups and allow the skilled small groups to beat dumb large groups.

This is already possible via rallying. An organized group will have their mesmers place stacks of confusion, eles place static fields, everyone else range for a few secs, and then move in.

By this point everyone has tagged so many people, the chances of rallying are much greater than it is for the opposing group.

Besides, when people are reviving those in the downed state, they are completely vulnerable. If a small group is organized, they should be able to move together and inflict damage on those reviving, while killing those downed in the process.

What we’re discussing here is how a small group with no organization can run into a larger group and somehow stand a chance. They shouldn’t. When we get rolled in our guild with lower numbers we blame ourselves for not staying on the commander, not dropping fields appropriately, not placing good portals. No skilled group of players has ever lost to another group simply because of the downed state, I’ll put it that way.

Even if the downed state is completely removed, giant zergs will still be able to stack on people and revive this mid-battle. Are we going to completely remove reviving near battle then? Because there will be a lot more of you angry at that, then you are angry at this.

Downed state is fine. If the small man team is truly better than the larger group downed shouldn’t be a problem. Voice com teamwork and you should be able to win. 3 v 8. You down 1 person that means another goes to Rez not doing damage. It then becomes 3v5. With 2 people basically not doing significant damage and sitting ducks.

If your small man is organized then the only people attempting to stomp are those that can stomp the best with the lowest risk of dying, thieves, Mesmers, warriors with stability, engi etc.

Burl.9567:

I think allowing only out of combat players to res/heal downed players is a good start. Keep the rally mechanic though.

Removing reviving would be punishing groups for organization. Small groups are capable of sticking together and reviving their downed. The winning group will focus on attacking while keeping their guys alive, which takes skill and should be rewarded.

The rally mechanic favors the smaller group, as I explained above, so you’re asking for an advantage to be given to the smaller group.

I think all of this stems from the fact people don’t like zergs, which I can sympathize with, but tweaking the game’s mechanics is not the way to go about this. Likely why Anet has yet to find a perfect solution.

Hmm ucf knight puts it perfectly

oZii.2864:

Downed state is fine. If the small man team is truly better than the larger group downed shouldn’t be a problem. Voice com teamwork and you should be able to win. 3 v 8. You down 1 person that means another goes to Rez not doing damage. It then becomes 3v5. With 2 people basically not doing significant damage and sitting ducks.

If your small man is organized the the only people attempting to stomp are those that can stomp the best with the lowest risk of dying, thieves, Mesmers, warriors with stability, engi etc.

3v8 fights is not where the glaring problems are with the downed state. It’s with the 20v60 fights where the problem becomes clearly visible.

I’d rather see underwater combat balances take priority over downstate issues. I usually flat out kill people instead of try to spike them. Even from atop a tower wall. An ele can kill a downed player with a staff faster than they can using any piece of siege other than a ballista. And sometimes faster than a ballista. Drop static field before his buddies can try to get near him, fire off a knockback on anyone you missed, and spam fire with stability up. If you fail, dodge back, drop water 5 and blast it. If rooted, earth aura, teleport.

Treb cond. dam. cowing, + ballistas, and leg. spec. warriors on carts is the best siege defense you can get right now vs 60+ zergs. Block the entirety of incoming treb-fire. Failing to zerg bust for keep defense is usually the lack of most of the above setup.

Now that I’m way off topic, I’ll add that reflect damaging siege for 3k+ per tick of an arrowcart on the cart and not the user is annoying and stupid. Why cap quaggans when you can create lightning, with 10x the damage, yourself?

Burl.9567:

3v8 fights is not where the glaring problems are with the downed state. It’s with the 20v60 fights where the problem becomes clearly visible.

If you’re fighting 20v60, you’re going to get rolled no matter what.

You can remove all of the mechanics that you want. The only thing that will save you at that point is the port home, assuming you haven’t removed that as well.

“20v60, you’re going to get rolled no matter what.”

That’s not true at all. You can win the rally game in open field. Utilize group stealth, flanking, have heavy AoEs, and co-ordinated CC. Blast those heals.

Another thing is that downed state is a gating mechanism. If you overkill a target, the excess damage you deal over zero health is wasted. Conditions do not persist from live state to downed state so a player that goes down and can expect to rally pretty much gets a free cleanse condition and a free +25% health bonus.

If you are running with a big numbers advantage it is usually beneficial to tag as many enemies as possible with aoe and to play highly offensively, to the point of being reckless.

The only solution I can see is to remove the ability to rally in WvW. At least if people are forced to rez up downed in the middle of combat, they are rezzing, not killing you.

Its just the worst when you go 15 vs 40, you have superior mobility, positioning and coordination. You down 20 players putting your entire team wide burst damage and condition pressure on cooldown.

The other team still has more players on their feet than yours. All they need to do is to kill one of your players and its over. Half their players (or more) will rally instantly with all conditions cleansed. More if they play aggressively and understand that when using multiple shot (bounce) projectiles and aoe, rallying is the quickest, safest way to recover from a bad opening.

If players are forced to rez downed instead of waiting for a rally, they aren’t hurting you, giving you the time and space to finish or regroup, buy time to run out cooldowns and spike again.

UCF Knight.8095:

Burl.9567:

3v8 fights is not where the glaring problems are with the downed state. It’s with the 20v60 fights where the problem becomes clearly visible.

If you’re fighting 20v60, you’re going to get rolled no matter what.

You can remove all of the mechanics that you want. The only thing that will save you at that point is the port home, assuming you haven’t removed that as well.

There is clearly a skill gap then between tier 1 and tier 2 if that is your thought process because that is NOT what happens when a coordinated guild group goes up against the zerg in tier 1.

DevonCarver.5370:

We believe there is some room for improvement in the way that downed works in WvW. That being said we haven’t settled on a version that we think doesn’t create more problems than it solves. Rest assured we are looking at the way it works and as soon as we can, we will improve it.

Thanks for the acknowledgement. One thing that would immediately go a long way is removing:
1. Pve creatures rallying people
2. Guy from realm 1 kills guy from realm 2 which rallies guy from realm 3

Burl.9567:

UCF Knight.8095:

Burl.9567:

3v8 fights is not where the glaring problems are with the downed state. It’s with the 20v60 fights where the problem becomes clearly visible.

If you’re fighting 20v60, you’re going to get rolled no matter what.

You can remove all of the mechanics that you want. The only thing that will save you at that point is the port home, assuming you haven’t removed that as well.

There is clearly a skill gap then between tier 1 and tier 2 if that is your thought process because that is NOT what happens when a coordinated guild group goes up against the zerg in tier 1.

Maybe you’re facing poor zergs?

There are a lot of great guilds in TC and KN (or were in this case). When they have 60 people rolling in one tight little ball, I would like to see anyone take them down with 20 people.

The only time we can take on 40+ additional people is when it’s just a giant pugball, which is never. An organized group of 60 should never lose to a group of 20, no matter how good we are.

If you have ranged AoEs going, there’s probably only a 1-3s gap on downstate where the player doesn’t have new conditions on them yet. Where a thief/necro might open with conditions, an ele would finish with them. Lava font lands on down players every time I see them.

Rallying from pve is creatures should stay it adds a element. If we down a thief and people a Dps we say in comma make sure to not kill the Moa. It’s like fighting a p/d condi thief around mobs , or a Mesmer underwater, it’s small but it adds a bit of variety to it. Next is remove terrain and make everything flat so it’s just people vs people open field battles?

Maybe a compromise solution is to only allow two people to try and rez someone. It is kind of crazy that you can rez a guy in a down state before a ballista can finish them off. This has nothing to do with how big or small the zerg is as long as they can max out the allowed healers. Arrow carts can’t finish anyone off either while the enemy piles on and max healer rezzes someone while the others absorb all the AoE due to the cap. Seriously having to use a catapult to knock people off b/c of the AoE cap at 5 people exposes how powerful rezzing currently is in this game. The greater than group of 5 can rez anyone before siege can kill them. To me the number of healers allowed is the issue more than trying to make it where 20 can beat 60. It is possible for 20 to beat 60 but very unlikely unless there are a lot of arrow carts with leg lock and extreme organization which IMO is correct. However, the number of healers that can rez someone is too high for the current damage cap and siege DPS.

As the zergs you are killing grow in numbers you eventually hit a point where people come back from the dead faster than you can stomp the next guy. This gives a distinct feeling of winning but making no progress. Its not just fighting a zerg, its fighting a zerg and a time limit where you have to kill so many people per minute or you eventually get overwhelmed.

DevonCarver.5370:

We believe there is some room for improvement in the way that downed works in WvW. That being said we haven’t settled on a version that we think doesn’t create more problems than it solves. Rest assured we are looking at the way it works and as soon as we can, we will improve it.

THANKS, please fix it as quickly as you can!

TogoChubb.3984:

Maybe a compromise solution is to only allow two people to try and rez someone. It is kind of crazy that you can rez a guy in a down state before a ballista can finish them off. This has nothing to do with how big or small the zerg is as long as they can max out the allowed healers. Arrow carts can’t finish anyone off either while the enemy piles on and max healer rezzes someone while the others absorb all the AoE due to the cap. Seriously having to use a catapult to knock people off b/c of the AoE cap at 5 people exposes how powerful rezzing currently is in this game. The greater than group of 5 can rez anyone before siege can kill them. To me the number of healers allowed is the issue more than trying to make it where 20 can beat 60. It is possible for 20 to beat 60 but very unlikely unless there are a lot of arrow carts with leg lock and extreme organization which IMO is correct. However, the number of healers that can rez someone is too high for the current damage cap and siege DPS.

Or just force the healing amount to be reduced even further. Rather than healing for 600 per tick, decrease it to 200 per tick. As it is now, 6 people stack on the guy and he is rezed in 2-3 seconds or picked up from the downed state almost immediately.

Another possibility is a debuff when rezing a player. Damage to you is increased 100% or something along those lines.

The issue with the downed state is that it rallies multiple players if anything they tagged gets killed.

SO!
=> NPCs don’t rally
=> 1 player killed = 1 player rallied, not many
=> once rallied from a killed player you get a 5 minute debuff that keeps you from being rallied from player kills

I say this because as is, good fights look like complete crushing victories for a side because of the snowball effect. Second, everyone tags so many and wisely so. I can recall rallying off of player kills 8 times in under a 2 minutes in a really big fight.

Stopping and rallying a downed player is part of the game but just keep kill rallies in check and many issues will go away.

oZii.2864:

Rallying from pve is creatures should stay it adds a element. If we down a thief and people a Dps we say in comma make sure to not kill the Moa. It’s like fighting a p/d condi thief around mobs , or a Mesmer underwater, it’s small but it adds a bit of variety to it. Next is remove terrain and make everything flat so it’s just people vs people open field battles?

Way to straw man bro. I just think a PvP setting should mostly consist of pvp

I can’t kill this player, but if I can just kill the Skale that was aoe’d down to 10% during the fight, I might have a chance….

CHEESE

Burl.9567:

TogoChubb.3984:

Maybe a compromise solution is to only allow two people to try and rez someone. It is kind of crazy that you can rez a guy in a down state before a ballista can finish them off. This has nothing to do with how big or small the zerg is as long as they can max out the allowed healers. Arrow carts can’t finish anyone off either while the enemy piles on and max healer rezzes someone while the others absorb all the AoE due to the cap. Seriously having to use a catapult to knock people off b/c of the AoE cap at 5 people exposes how powerful rezzing currently is in this game. The greater than group of 5 can rez anyone before siege can kill them. To me the number of healers allowed is the issue more than trying to make it where 20 can beat 60. It is possible for 20 to beat 60 but very unlikely unless there are a lot of arrow carts with leg lock and extreme organization which IMO is correct. However, the number of healers that can rez someone is too high for the current damage cap and siege DPS.

Or just force the healing amount to be reduced even further. Rather than healing for 600 per tick, decrease it to 200 per tick. As it is now, 6 people stack on the guy and he is rezed in 2-3 seconds or picked up from the downed state almost immediately.

Another possibility is a debuff when rezing a player. Damage to you is increased 100% or something along those lines.

One other thing is that I don’t think you should be able to rez someone while in stealth (WvW only). Some use mass invis or shadow refuge (use this on guardians or tanky condition eating necros and it’s impossible to kill them before they rez two or three people) a group to go in and start rezzing people and by the time you see the life bar going up it’s way too late to counter that since you can’t target someone in stealth and AoE is way too slow to stop the max healer rez once it is started. Once they get two or three rezzed then the AoE cap raises it’s ugly head.

Rallying off NPCs is a must go, it is out-and-out stupid in WvW. Only ones that can be argued are guards, but mob NPCs shouldn’t rally in WvW.

katniss.6735:

I can’t kill this player, but if I can just kill the Skale that was aoe’d down to 10% during the fight, I might have a chance….

CHEESE

Well, it’s not PvP. NPCs are part of WvW. A smart player would take them into account.

Then I’ve seen people getting a bunch of enemies to an inch of their health and having another player keeping tabs on them, then they’ll go attack a neary supply camp.
I think it was a bunch of wolves.

Whenever anyone was near defeat after being downed or about to be finished, the guy keeping tabs would kill one of the enemies, reviving them.

I found quite surprising that something like that would work, and I don’t think it should.
Fortunately, I haven’t seen many people doing something like that.

Maybe getting out of combat after fighting with anyone should remove the possibility to get rallied by their deaths, so you can only revive from defeats of enemies within the current “combat” session?

Being too far from them should also prevent revival.

BrockMcCleery.9562:

Rallying off NPCs is a must go, it is out-and-out stupid in WvW. Only ones that can be argued are guards, but mob NPCs shouldn’t rally in WvW.

But it adds to the strategy!! (sarcasm)

I really disagree with quite a few posts in here, rallying off NPC’s is fine. It makes you aware of your surroundings. It’s also not like it provides an advantage because you can do the same thing.

This is not PvP, it’s WvW; there are PvE and PvP elements for a reason.

Don’t want them rallying off of the NPC? Kill it before they do. Being aware of your surroundings is a perfectly valid tactic, don’t get mad because you were outplayed. There is enough EZMode as it is.

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

There is enough EZMode as it is.

Amen. If everything that got complained about was removed, this would be the easiest, most boring MMO out there.

If you’re fighting someone in the same ballpark as you skill wise and you spend time killing an NPC you’re going to get tooled.

2 people plus a mob…advantage to whoever gets downed first. Nothing like a free 50% heal. Its cheese sandwich and the only reason I can guess people arguing for it is because you need it to beat people.

So work the fight over to another mob after he rez’s so you can do the same thing. It’s not like there’s only one mob in each map.

You’re right, I’m convinced, pve rallying is the epitome of fun and fairness in PvP. How could I have been so blind.

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

I really disagree with quite a few posts in here, rallying off NPC’s is fine. It makes you aware of your surroundings. It’s also not like it provides an advantage because you can do the same thing.

This is not PvP, it’s WvW; there are PvE and PvP elements for a reason.

Don’t want them rallying off of the NPC? Kill it before they do. Being aware of your surroundings is a perfectly valid tactic, don’t get mad because you were outplayed. There is enough EZMode as it is.

It adds elements, the problems are that some classes have great attacks and evasions from downed states and can easily kill mobs from a downed state. 2nd, some classes have amazing amounts of annoyance (in-out stealth thieves, mesmers), this just doubles their annoyance.

Everyone wonders why there isn’t a lot of ‘small grp fights’, well, there you have it. IT IS VERY ANNOYING. Why should I bother with a thief or mesmer in mobs, ever? I fought one on my warrior for 10+ minutes, there is no point to it. None. I will just run with 10+ and only fight at objectives, since you can just run away from those classes. Open field small group fighting is a total waste of time, changing rally would make it possibly ok. It isn’t even worth cutting off reinforcements without a very good group or 10+. Some will say they can but killing upgraded players is not really cutting off reinforcements. Almost doing the enemy a favor, that is some lvl 20 who won’t be getting the blob AOE boon buffs.

Fact: Current downed state favors larger numbers, not skill.
Fact: Rallying off a PvE mob favors the first to be downed.
Fact: If you like the current downed state in wvw you might live under powerlines, maybe, probably, most likely.

BrockMcCleery.9562:

The issue with the downed state is that it rallies multiple players if anything they tagged gets killed.

SO!
=> NPCs don’t rally
=> 1 player killed = 1 player rallied, not many
=> once rallied from a killed player you get a 5 minute debuff that keeps you from being rallied from player kills

I say this because as is, good fights look like complete crushing victories for a side because of the snowball effect. Second, everyone tags so many and wisely so. I can recall rallying off of player kills 8 times in under a 2 minutes in a really big fight.

Stopping and rallying a downed player is part of the game but just keep kill rallies in check and many issues will go away.

I had to log in just to quote you. This is by far the BEST idea I’ve seen in regards to downed state mechanics in WvW. It doesn’t completely eliminate this “unique feature”, but it does limit it so it isn’t in it’s current OP state. (1 v 4s where the 4 keep rallying off PvE mobs ftl)

Gazden.5479:

Fact: Current downed state favors larger numbers, not skill.
Fact: Rallying off a PvE mob favors the first to be downed.
Fact: If you like the current downed state in wvw you might live under powerlines, maybe, probably, most likely.

1. If you are really downing massive numbers and they res off a creature simultaneously, and this actually happens frequently, this is the exception that proves my case. Yes, it could be a legitimate argument, but it sounds rather silly, and I am anecdotally biased as it has never happened to me.
2. Only if there is one mob, when does this ever happen?
3. So?

Seriously though, ad hominems over legitimate arguments? That’s just tacky. I entirely understand the concerns, I just don’t agree with most of them. But thanks for writing me off for a differing viewpoint.

Things should be fixed to a degree (i.e. if I kill a mob an enemy that tagged it shouldn’t rally the enemy), but I don’t agree with the functionality being removed altogether.

^ Seriously.

Gazden.5479:

Fact: If you like the current downed state in wvw you might live under powerlines, maybe, probably, most likely.

As if someone hasn’t said this for every aspect of the game.

I don’t have any issues with the downed state as it is. That “second chance” can be exciting and adds a nice element to WvW. Hopefully ANet doesn’t feel compelled to make unnecessary changes. The needs of the many should outweigh the tears of the few.

katniss.6735:

I can’t kill this player, but if I can just kill the Skale that was aoe’d down to 10% during the fight, I might have a chance….

CHEESE

Lol, yeah. And especially since that Skale decided to attack 30 people with magic and bombs and guns and explosions going off everywhere around. Lol, at the sound of the first shot all these animals would scatter for cover anyway.

Res Sickness…..This has been in a lot of other games to limit the effectiveness of chain ressing.

And no..the “downed” res sickness you get its good enough, If you res in this game you’re basically 100% where you were before getting downed.

Hell sometimes you’re better off because it instantly removed all your conditions when you got downed.

My suggestion would be, if you get downed and ressed, -20% to all stats for the next minute.

Have it happen against, -40% for the next minute.

The issue for us as a guild here is the ability for huge blobs to just mass res as they go. We cannot push through 60-80 guys in 1 go, survive and down all of them(understandably), so we have to pull off and heal, and in the time it takes us to do that, every enemy we downed is back on their feet.

It forces people to get larger and larger groups just to get the necessary damage, and forcing people to group and zerg is not healthy for the game.

Because of a few mechanics, this being the main one in my opinion, the game currently favours numbers before skill which is bad in a PvP/RvR enviroment.

UCF Knight.8095:

Kryyg.8576:

Get rid of downed state in WvW, period.

This will allow smaller mans to fight large groups.

If everything is equal, a larger group should take down a smaller group. Everyone complaining wants everything to be equal and balanced so that no advantage can be acquired whatsoever, but small groups should be able to defeat large groups given the same skill?

That makes no sense.

I agree, and I think Arenanet would be foolish to bend over for the whiners here.

Kind of funny that I uploaded this movie last night.

AoE cap fail.
Downed state fail.

Players who don’t pay attention and/or are easily led into traps need to be punished.

Snowstorm.3897:

The issue for us as a guild here is the ability for huge blobs to just mass res as they go. We cannot push through 60-80 guys in 1 go, survive and down all of them(understandably), so we have to pull off and heal, and in the time it takes us to do that, every enemy we downed is back on their feet.

It forces people to get larger and larger groups just to get the necessary damage, and forcing people to group and zerg is not healthy for the game.

Because of a few mechanics, this being the main one in my opinion, the game currently favours numbers before skill which is bad in a PvP/RvR enviroment.

Who is this “we” of which you speak? Is it “we” as in 60 – 80 of your own servers people or are you talking 20 – 30 or so? Equal numbers, no, you shouldn’t “push through”, it should be one heck of a fight with both sides trying to rez and all that. If you’re 20 – 30 and expect to push through 60 – 80… well, it’s not rezzing that’s the problem… it’s your expectations.

If everything is equal, a larger group should take down a smaller group. Everyone complaining wants everything to be equal and balanced so that no advantage can be acquired whatsoever, but small groups should be able to defeat large groups given the same skill?

That makes no sense.

What makes no sense is you. Here is some reality for you. If a larger group is winning because of the downed state mechanic then they are not “equally skilled” to the smaller group.

That should be obvious.

Svarty.8019:

UCF Knight.8095:

Kryyg.8576:

Get rid of downed state in WvW, period.

This will allow smaller mans to fight large groups.

If everything is equal, a larger group should take down a smaller group. Everyone complaining wants everything to be equal and balanced so that no advantage can be acquired whatsoever, but small groups should be able to defeat large groups given the same skill?

That makes no sense.

I agree, and I think Arenanet would be foolish to bend over for the whiners here.

No one is saying that smaller groups should be able to wipe larger groups of the same skill level. But if my smaller group of 20 has more skill than your group of 60, I should have a chance to wipe you. As of right now, this isn’t the case.

If you want to break the zerg up and stop the current meta, you need to give the organized smaller groups the ability to wipe the massive blob. That does NOT exist currently. Everyone complains about the zerg, but they offer no solutions to break it up. Maps won’t be getting bigger and the AoE cap won’t be removed, what else is there to do besides giving the organized smaller groups the tools and ability to wipe the unorganized mass.

I’m speaking 20-30, and like I said, I have no issue with not pushing and killing 60-80 in 1 go, I’d be an idiot to think we could do that. Whats stupid is that because of the ressing mechanic, we can’t do any damage to that group as a whole because they just res whoever we down. You suddenly make it so that downed state is removed, and you go straight to defeated. We push, kill 30, and the larger disorganised grou kitten lowly wittled down by a smaller more organised group, and is thus punished due to superior skill.

In some fights we probably down total players in the enemy blobs literally hundreds of times, I’m talking 10 minute fights vs 60-80, multiple pushes, 20-30 downed every push, but we can’t ever make a dent in the blob because of the ressing mechanic.

Again, like I said, the game currently is numbers > skill

Apparently I can’t edit my posts, so here’s an edit, 5th line.

‘We push, kill 30, and the larger disorganised blob is slowly wittled down….’

Snowstorm.3897:

I’m speaking 20-30, and like I said, I have no issue with not pushing and killing 60-80 in 1 go, I’d be an idiot to think we could do that. Whats stupid is that because of the ressing mechanic, we can’t do any damage to that group as a whole because they just res whoever we down. You suddenly make it so that downed state is removed, and you go straight to defeated. We push, kill 30, and the larger disorganised grou kitten lowly wittled down by a smaller more organised group, and is thus punished due to superior skill.

In some fights we probably down total players in the enemy blobs literally hundreds of times, I’m talking 10 minute fights vs 60-80, multiple pushes, 20-30 downed every push, but we can’t ever make a dent in the blob because of the ressing mechanic.

Again, like I said, the game currently is numbers > skill

So, you kill 20-30 of them, they kill 20-30 of you, you respawn, they rez the defeated anyhow. What dent?

I feel like the downed system is a great mechanic, especially in WvW. Players who are trying to save other downed players are often easy prey. Plus, if you can’t finish off downed players even with the downed penalty and finisher mechanics, you don’t deserve the kill.

That being said, I respect your complaints, but propose a different solution:
1. Elementalists in Mist Form can’t pass through gates.
2. Finishers can’t be used on Outmanned players.