Guild Wars 2

Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365:

1. Just because none of the people that you know didn’t vote for it, does not mean that the majority of voter actually did not vote for it.

2. The reason why you feel like people are leaving the game might be because those of your friends that play it are actually taking a break for Legion in the first place.

If you are involved in a wvw community you know your players because you play with them every day, talk to them on TS or in chat. If you are a wvw guild you have a lot of contacts around you on all servers talking to the players that also are devoted to the game mode. Most of those also have several accounts placed on several servers in NA and EU. So being inside of this, you have more knowledge about wvw overall then the average player who drops in every now and then to follow a commander for loot.

So with that said, all those players that voted for dbl don’t seem to show up. My sever have a community guild were you find most of the wvw players. Most of us are not repping but we have the chat open so when need of help you can call it out in the chat of that guild and you know there will be people outside of wvw dropping what they are doing and join to defend. Last week we had DBL for a few days. And a few to noone responded. After reset we were back on alpine and now people responding as usual. This because the players inside of wvw, the group i wrote about above, mostly did not vote for DBL and dislike the map.

Talking to other players or check other accounts you see the same thing on other servers. Outnumberd and no response and garrison on dbl have a spinning door.
Now there are ofc a few here and there no doubt, roamers seem to run the map since no groups are on it so they can roam and fight other roamers, but i wonder were are those other 55% that voted for the map? I mean it is a really big group that wanted it, so why do we lack people on dbl? Why do we lack commanders and defenders on dbl? 55% is a big number, the dbl map should be over populated, so were are they?

they must be t3 and t4 NA where there has been plenty of action since it came back. Not 5-10 man roaming groups either – at times near que #s…..

IndigoSundown.5419:

As to “self-selecting sample,” how would you suggest polling players who are no longer active and have no interest in keeping current? I get that you think there were issues with the polling. How would you fix it?

I don’t suggest that they poll players who are no longer active, the point is when people make claims like the poll shows what “the WvW community” really thought about the DBL they are talking nonsense because “the community” back when we had 150 man queues on EB when we had 3 desert borderlands is not the same as now, the poll was also open to everyone in the game not merely WvW players, there were threats from devs about future content if the poll did not go a certain way, etc.

Sarrs.4831:

zinkz.7045:

Do you have any evidence to show that the polls included only WvW player votes, included no troll votes, included every WvW player that played on HoT release and that the statement by a dev on Reddit that more maps would be unlikely if the DBL got voted out, had no effect on the votes?

Tu quoque fallacy. Out out out.

I realise logic isn’t your strength, but it is basically the point you attempted to make, in reverse, so what is sauce for the goose..

Sarrs.4831:

So it’s a pretty basic tautological problem you’ve got here. You’re assuming that someone who has completely cut ties with the game such that they are paying no attention to any of their news releases or even the emails that ANet are sending them can still be considered a member of the ‘WvW community’.

Maybe you should read things properly, maybe if you try hard you’ll work out why the above is not relevant to what I wrote.

Sarrs.4831:

Considering they aren’t server merges and they’ve explicitly stated what the intent of world linking is- to provide you with more variation in opponents and allies- this statement seems bizarre.

They are effectively server merges and they would not have been possible for many of the servers when the game was in a healthier state, as you apparently missed it, the number of full/very high servers reached an all-time-low in the months after HoT, WvW hemorrhaged players, but please keep making excuses it is funny.

Sarrs.4831:

If you have so little faith in ANet, it begs the question of why you’re even here. Lazy emotional arguments aren’t going to win you much progress with anyone.

If you can’t cope with opposing views then why are you are even here, as for lazy arguments, the irony & hypocrisy is strong with you.

When it comes to “making progress” it is an internet forum on a gaming site with white knights, etc, you must be new if you think I have the slightest inclination, delusion or care about “making progress” here, and really there is no “progress” to be made, nothing written on this subforum will influence Anet on anything major, the only sort of thing that will do that are things like their lowest ever quarterly results for the game that NCSoft reported recently.

Leaa.2943:

I still ask were all those voters are, because i never see them on a dbl map. And i have accounts in both EU and NA and every server that have dbl are struggling to get people on it. So were are you voters? You have your chance to really shine now and pick up dbl and make new tactics, tag up and run your thing and enjoy your map. But i never see you, i only see the outnumbered buff on each server i check.
So were are you?

The outmanned icon should have given it away. We’re on the other servers.

Choppy.4183:

Honestly, with the amount people whine about wvw I’m surprised Anet hasn’t told us all to go kitten ourselves by now.

They have, many times. But only if you, like me, are one of the ones who keeps posting complaints.

All I can say: thank god for polling. Otherwise you’d be lead to believe other things.

Ben K.6238:

Leaa.2943:

I still ask were all those voters are, because i never see them on a dbl map. And i have accounts in both EU and NA and every server that have dbl are struggling to get people on it. So were are you voters? You have your chance to really shine now and pick up dbl and make new tactics, tag up and run your thing and enjoy your map. But i never see you, i only see the outnumbered buff on each server i check.
So were are you?

The outmanned icon should have given it away. We’re on the other servers.

Well that means you are on the alpine map, so ofc you have more players on it, that is the whole point of the post -.-

Leaa.2943:

Ben K.6238:

Leaa.2943:

I still ask were all those voters are, because i never see them on a dbl map. And i have accounts in both EU and NA and every server that have dbl are struggling to get people on it. So were are you voters? You have your chance to really shine now and pick up dbl and make new tactics, tag up and run your thing and enjoy your map. But i never see you, i only see the outnumbered buff on each server i check.
So were are you?

The outmanned icon should have given it away. We’re on the other servers.

Well that means you are on the alpine map, so ofc you have more players on it, that is the whole point of the post -.-

If your server is outnumbered on the desert border it means the opposite servers have at least the tripple amount of players on that border. You wont get the outnumbered buff when they playing on one of the two alpine maps

The DBL is the same piece of junk it was when it was released. Their updates amounted to little more than perfume on a dung heap. My first preference is to scout/roam around the home bl, but for this week, its EB or one of the opponents borderlands. To those people who like the DBL, have fun.

Typical human nature: I have 2 of the 3 but I want ALL 3!

Love, love, love DBL.

Jeknar.6184:

misterman.1530:

As smart people mentioned before, if you do not have the numbers, there’s no way you can successfully defend/take the DBL. My server has it this week. We aren’t doing well. We can’t. We are habitually outnumbered on any BL we enter. It’s doubly bad on the DBL.

If you don’t have the numbers you’re not going to defend anything anyway. This isn’t a map problem.

It most certainly is. If we are outnumbered in an alpine bl 2 to 1, we can still get to a disputed objective in time…and if we have siege, successfully defend. If you are outnumbered 2 to 1 and you have no one anywhere near an objective, good luck getting there in time.

misterman.1530:

It most certainly is. If we are outnumbered in an alpine bl 2 to 1, we can still get to a disputed objective in time…and if we have siege, successfully defend. If you are outnumbered 2 to 1 and you have no one anywhere near an objective, good luck getting there in time.

I don’t know … the base tower from DBL is about the same distance as an offensive ABL base tower to run to from spawn. It’s really not that far from spawn at all, and the spawn is more open and shorter on DBL than ABL. Now running from that tower to the keep ‘feels’ a little farther than running from the base tower to keep in ABL.

Ok, maybe one change they could do for DBL is to allow us to go down to North Camp straight from spawn like it is on ABL. The Lab is right on top of the camp anyway, we could have a teleporter to go down. Other than that, the run distance to the towers are about the same (DBL towers have back entrances) and running from spawn to a side keep takes long even on ABL.

Jeknar.6184:

Ok, maybe one change they could do for DBL is to allow us to go down to North Camp straight from spawn like it is on ABL. The Lab is right on top of the camp anyway, we could have a teleporter to go down. Other than that, the run distance to the towers are about the same (DBL towers have back entrances) and running from spawn to a side keep takes long even on ABL.

They could add a gate/portal that is active when that servers owns the camp, imo that would be fine.

I don’t like DBL at all, but in T2, its the only place you can even find people roaming anymore. My guild runs 3-5 people and we went to Green BL, nothing but blobs, then to Blue BL, nothing but blobs, then EBG, mostly just blobs or pugs running back to their blobs. In Red though, roamers. People just running around, flipping camps and towers with small numbers. So I mean, I appreciate that about the map – zergs don’t want to be there, which is nice for roamers. The issue is that it is such a pain to do anything in the map because its huge and WAY TOO GIMMICKY..

Tired of the gimmicks, walls popping up in front of me for no reason, people being in stealth for no reason in the center, the whole entire center area being 100% pointless. They need to drop the gimmicks with the monuments there and copy the ruins style from Alpine for the center area.

The map over all looks nice, but its just such a pain to play on.

Knob.6835:

My whole guild of 80 actives voted for it and we like that you don’t like it. Keep the zergs out. The small scale fights are incredible.

Irony folks, get it while it’s hot!

Nuzt.7894:

Knob.6835:

My whole guild of 80 actives voted for it and we like that you don’t like it. Keep the zergs out. The small scale fights are incredible.

Irony folks, get it while it’s hot!

I’d laugh if it wasn’t hurting so much…

XTR.9604:

They need to drop the gimmicks with the monuments there and copy the ruins style from Alpine for the center area.

I agree with the rest of your post but: Do we really need the ruins thingy anymore? It’s usually no struggle to get it, you just have to have 2 people who run around – no real accomplishment.
I like the buff and gaining ppk is important, I just don’t think the ruins are.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Nuzt.7894:

Knob.6835:

My whole guild of 80 actives voted for it and we like that you don’t like it. Keep the zergs out. The small scale fights are incredible.

Irony folks, get it while it’s hot!

I’d laugh if it wasn’t hurting so much…

Must be T1 roamers.

Leaa.2943:

Ben K.6238:

Leaa.2943:

I still ask were all those voters are, because i never see them on a dbl map. And i have accounts in both EU and NA and every server that have dbl are struggling to get people on it. So were are you voters? You have your chance to really shine now and pick up dbl and make new tactics, tag up and run your thing and enjoy your map. But i never see you, i only see the outnumbered buff on each server i check.
So were are you?

The outmanned icon should have given it away. We’re on the other servers.

Well that means you are on the alpine map, so ofc you have more players on it, that is the whole point of the post -.-

Mind sharing what servers you are playing on? As I said, SBI T3 NA have seen full queues over the weekend on DBL and also saw what looked like a full enemy queue of CD on Sunday and large numbers from SoS at various times. Have seen 0 queues on ABL but a normal sized queue for EBG over the same period.

In either case, if DBL was an issue (no one on it), then that should mean more activity on other maps. Some of us are seeing plenty of activity on DBL so how is the mixed borderlands not working out for people?

TheGrimm.5624:

Leaa.2943:

Ben K.6238:

Leaa.2943:

I still ask were all those voters are, because i never see them on a dbl map. And i have accounts in both EU and NA and every server that have dbl are struggling to get people on it. So were are you voters? You have your chance to really shine now and pick up dbl and make new tactics, tag up and run your thing and enjoy your map. But i never see you, i only see the outnumbered buff on each server i check.
So were are you?

The outmanned icon should have given it away. We’re on the other servers.

Well that means you are on the alpine map, so ofc you have more players on it, that is the whole point of the post -.-

Mind sharing what servers you are playing on? As I said, SBI T3 NA have seen full queues over the weekend on DBL and also saw what looked like a full enemy queue of CD on Sunday and large numbers from SoS at various times. Have seen 0 queues on ABL but a normal sized queue for EBG over the same period.

If you are on SBI that means your red this week right? So dbl is your HOME map, and dbl just came back so people are checking it out not to mention your talking about the weekend which always has the most people on. If you want a better comparison, wait until colors change in your matchup then see how many people in your server play on dbl.

Jeknar.6184:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Nuzt.7894:

Knob.6835:

My whole guild of 80 actives voted for it and we like that you don’t like it. Keep the zergs out. The small scale fights are incredible.

Irony folks, get it while it’s hot!

I’d laugh if it wasn’t hurting so much…

Must be T1 roamers.

Seems like the only explanation.

sample size of one: I have played exclusively on DBL since it was brought back.

Having great, fun fights against people who don’t know the where the portals go

Nothing makes me happier than seeing Alpine fans get salty because of the mere existence of Desert. You people have TWO Alpine maps to go to, yet topics like these pop up.

/facepalm

Ralesk.3215:

Nothing makes me happier than seeing Alpine fans get salty because of the mere existence of Desert. You people have TWO Alpine maps to go to, yet topics like these pop up.

/facepalm

Yes, we have other maps to go to – maybe that’s one of the reasons why people complain?
It is a competitive game mode after all and if there’s no one to defend or attack or if attacking/defending is made impossible by how the map is set up…

Jana.6831:

It is a competitive game mode after all and if there’s no one to defend or attack or if attacking/defending is made impossible by how the map is set up…

First point “if there’s noone to defend or attack” yes there are people there who are able to defend or attack. Whether they’re willing depends on how willing they are to win the match. This also assumes that DBL preferences are not broadly uniform which is not a fair conclusion; if you have any evidence that supports the assertion that DBL+2ABL+EBG is having a significant impact on scoring compared to 3ABL+EBG, especially with variations based on individual servers (it stands to reason that some servers have more DBL-ready players, and some have less) I would love to see it.

Second point is simply untrue, and it’s frankly more true of EBG and ABL than it is of DBL.
-Indefensible objectives are far more prevalent on EBG and ABL because you can often protect your siege using your own objectives. Case in point, Hills trebbing SET is extremely difficult to stop with anything other than numerical superiority being used to knock down the treb.
-All DBL objectives are larger and are therefore less defensible by massed siege. The only exception to this in my experience is Fire Inner.

Sarrs.4831:

First point “if there’s noone to defend or attack” yes there are people there who are able to defend or attack. Whether they’re willing depends on how willing they are to win the match.

You have a point, but I ragequit when I force myself to be on the DBL – so maybe you don’t have a point and this map would be better suited as an adon for EotM.

Sarrs.4831:

-Indefensible objectives are far more prevalent on EBG and ABL because you can often protect your siege using your own objectives. Case in point, Hills trebbing SET is extremely difficult to stop with anything other than numerical superiority being used to knock down the treb.

You can have an ele getting it out or use field siege – it’s not impossible but that’s one of the reasons why the pre HoT maps are better. Not really sure what your point in this case is though.

-All DBL objectives are larger and are therefore less defensible by massed siege. The only exception to this in my experience is Fire Inner.

Same with this: What is your point?

ETA: My point is that the DBL is a) not a strategic map b) has got a lot of “bugs” which makes defending sometimes really hard/impossible. It could be used as a wvw map, although only few would be there – we’ve had that but it shouldn’t be used as a third map which is worth as much as the other 2 as that is an unbalanced MU.

I’d be fine if we had 2 months of all alpine BLs followed by 2 weeks of all DBLs or something like that.

And still I would ragequit but at least that would be fair.

Jana.6831:

You have a point, but I ragequit when I force myself to be on the DBL – so maybe you don’t have a point and this map would be better suited as an adon for EotM.

So you recognize that there’s a distinction between your personal preference and whether the map is objectively suited to be a WvW map or not.

I personally don’t enjoy EBG at all but I do think that it is, objectively, suitable to be a WvW map. I see all these people coming and bashing on the DBL, and besides the number of people doing it, they’ve about all the weight behind them that I would have if I came in and said “delete EBG it is bad for WvW”.

Jana.6831:

You can have an ele getting it out or use field siege – it’s not impossible but that’s one of the reasons why the pre HoT maps are better. Not really sure what your point in this case is though.

Those positions are some of the strongest places to have your siege in WvW. That’s not necessarily good or bad, that’s strategic variation, but to make the assertion that DBL offensives are as easy or easier to defeat than ABL offensives from superior locations does not seem accurate to me.

Jana.6831:

Same with this: What is your point?

You said that attacking or defending objectives is impossible because of how the map is set up. This is incorrect.

Jana.6831:

a) not a strategic map

This is no argument, and I mean that in the strictest terms. You haven’t provided any definition for strategic, and you haven’t provided any of the qualities that would suggest it is strategic or non-strategic.

Jana.6831:

b) has got a lot of “bugs” which makes defending sometimes really hard/impossible.

Are you reporting these bugs?
Why is this in quotation marks? Are they actual bugs or just map quirks?

Jana.6831:

I’d be fine if we had 2 months of all alpine BLs followed by 2 weeks of all DBLs or something like that.

And still I would ragequit but at least that would be fair.

This simply all seems like personal preference which you’re trying to dress up with an objective argument, to get what you want at the cost of what other people want (and voted for, on two separate occasions, with majorities).

Sarrs.4831:

So you recognize that there’s a distinction between your personal preference and whether the map is objectively suited to be a WvW map or not.

No, I was referring to your “depending how hard they want to win”.

Sarrs.4831:

I personally don’t enjoy EBG at all but I do think that it is, objectively, suitable to be a WvW map. I see all these people coming and bashing on the DBL, and besides the number of people doing it, they’ve about all the weight behind them that I would have if I came in and said “delete EBG it is bad for WvW”.

Those saying the old maps are better usually have a point and explain why they’re better.
Why do you think the DBL is a better wvw map than EB or ABL?

Sarrs.4831:

Those positions are some of the strongest places to have your siege in WvW. That’s not necessarily good or bad, that’s strategic variation, but to make the assertion that DBL offenses are as easy to defeat as ABL offensives from superior locations does not seem accurate to me.

I didn’t, you spoke of hills and lake. I was referring to that.

Sarrs.4831:

You said that attacking or defending objectives is impossible because of how the map is set up. This is incorrect.

You can’t defend fire keep against catapults set up on the north end. The static siege in earthkeep tries to destroy itself, you can’t get catas out at air keep as the range of the acs doesn’t match and so on. Tell me where exactly I’m wrong.

Sarrs.4831:

This is no argument, and I mean that in the strictest terms. You haven’t provided any definition for strategic, and you haven’t provided any of the qualities that would suggest it is strategic or non-strategic.

Strategic: I want to keep green keep, therefore I have to defend Jerri and Aldons, otherwise attackers might have an easy cap.
I want to keep WC and Klov, so I better get SM or at least make sure they can’t attack these towers – that goes for every colour. I’m still not happy about red keep and SM and also not so happy about the recent changes made to the walls of WC and Jerri.

Sarrs.4831:

Are you reporting these bugs?
Why is this in quotation marks? Are they actual bugs or just map quirks?

Bad layout.

Sarrs.4831:

This simply all seems like personal preference which you’re trying to dress up with an objective argument.

Of course it is, so? Am I required to bow and nod because some PvE players want their karma train?

Edit: Secondary issue: When did you start to play wvw?

Jana.6831:

Those saying the old maps are better usually have a point and explain why they’re better.
Why do you think the DBL is a better wvw map than EB or ABL?

I don’t know if I think DBL is a better WvW map than EBG or ABL. I haven’t done the legwork involved to know for sure.

I personally prefer it because it favors small group play because
-Shrines give solo/small team roamers something to do that will contribute to larger groups
-the size of the map means that small team fights are of greater consequence
-coordinated small teams can better outmaneuver blobs
-there is a higher level of technical ability in understanding how you can move around the map (including in respect to shrines, haybales, fall distances)

I ultimately don’t think any arguments that revolve around whether DBL is better or “worse” really make any sense because the variation is so small that it doesn’t have that much of an impact. It doesn’t need to be as good a map so long as it conforms to a baseline level.

I do think that earlier, while barricades were still in the game, that the map was unnecessarily obnoxious and in that state of the map I would not have drastically minded removing it from rotation entirely- but it was changed, and the map still can be changed.

Jana.6831:

I didn’t, you spoke of hills and lake. I was referring to that.

You did.

Jana.6831:

It is a competitive game mode after all and if there’s no one to defend or attack or if attacking/defending is made impossible by how the map is set up…

Attacking and defending are not made impossible by how the map is set up; not any more than attacking or defending are made impossible by how ABL and EBG are set up.

Jana.6831:

You can’t defend fire keep against catapults set up on the north end. The static siege in earthkeep tries to destroy itself, you can’t get catas out at air keep as the range of the acs doesn’t match and so on. Tell me where exactly I’m wrong.

Against catapults set up on the ridge next to the camp, on the plateau near the shrine or right next to the wall? The last two can be dealt with. The ridge is difficult but it’s far from impossible, and that’s why you have inner; Fire’s inner is probably the hardest point to attack IMO.

Static siege in Earth keep trying to destroy itself sounds like a bug. You should get more details on that and make a report.

“You can’t get catas out at air keep”, what does this mean? That the good catapult positions on the staircases are difficult to attack? On the spot on inner which is about 10 meters beneath where the actual wall is?

Jana.6831:

Strategic: I want to keep green keep, therefore I have to defend Jerri and Aldons, otherwise attackers might have an easy cap.
I want to keep WC and Klov, so I better get SM or at least make sure they can’t attack these towers – that goes for every colour. I’m still not happy about red keep and SM and also not so happy about the recent changes made to the walls of WC and Jerri.

So it’s about objective interdependency, and you don’t think DBL has much if any objective interdependency. I don’t really think that objective interdependency is that important and that it’s an interesting point of divergence for a map but to each their own. To say that means that DBL involves no strategic element because of this, though, seems far-fetched.

Jana.6831:

Of course it is, so? Am I required to bow and nod because some PvE players want their karma train?

Yes. I am the god of karma and I demand you kneel before me. Receive my obsidian shardly goodness and wear my temple gear or be banished from my realm.

Jana.6831:

Edit: Secondary issue: When did you start to play wvw?

I had my first poke I think in the second-to-last beta weekend.

You have a very different idea of what wvw should be like – it sounds as if you want a large 5 vs 5 pvp map and that is what the DBL is.
We could argue a few days about this – I have already said everything I think about the ABLs, EB and DBLs. It’s ok if you disagree but I think you know why I don’t think the DBLs are a wvw map. And yes there’s a lot of bugs which add to that but I’m not writing bug reports, sorry. The why (because you seem to love to ask me why I’m doing things) : They decided to bring in first person view and with that kittened with the AC range and they didn’t just bring in one camera fix but a new with every minor patch. So every time you built an AC you couldn’t know where it would hit aas it was different with every new patch. Just thinking of it makes me mad. So; if any siege is wonky so be it – I’m done trying to improve anything in that regard.

ETA: At least for stuff like that they should have some kind of testserver – it doesn’t matter for most PvE players but for pvp/wvw players it’s crucial and super annoying.

Sarrs.4831:

I personally prefer it because it favors small group play because
-Shrines give solo/small team roamers something to do that will contribute to larger groups
-the size of the map means that small team fights are of greater consequence
-coordinated small teams can better outmaneuver blobs
-there is a higher level of technical ability in understanding how you can move around the map (including in respect to shrines, haybales, fall distances)

Jana.6831:

You have a very different idea of what wvw should be like – it sounds as if you want a large 5 vs 5 pvp map and that is what the DBL is.

Really? I don’t see where else you could be getting that impression but… really?

Even if these two quotes were somehow saying the same thing, and that’s quite a massive if, there should be room in wvw for multiple playstyles. Maps that favour alternate playstyles is a good thing. Leads to player retention.

Rashagar.8349:

Really? I don’t see where else you could be getting that impression but… really?

Even if these two quotes were somehow saying the same thing, and that’s quite a massive if, there should be room in wvw for multiple playstyles. Maps that favour alternate playstyles is a good thing. Leads to player retention.

You seem to be a bit confused. Sarrs and I are different people so yes the quotes were saying the same thing – really. I wasn’t in the mood to answer to everything he wrote and that’s why I shortened it to that sentence you quoted of me. Yes a wvw map should hold stuff for solo roamers, havoc, zergs, blobs because that is what wvw is and the vanilla maps fit these roles perfectly fine – although it’s getting harder and harder since last June/Hot. But surprise – we’ve discussed all of this lengthy.

Jana.6831:

Rashagar.8349:

Really? I don’t see where else you could be getting that impression but… really?

Even if these two quotes were somehow saying the same thing, and that’s quite a massive if, there should be room in wvw for multiple playstyles. Maps that favour alternate playstyles is a good thing. Leads to player retention.

You seem to be a bit confused. Sarrs and I are different people so yes the quotes were saying the same thing – really. I wasn’t in the mood to answer to everything he wrote and that’s why I shortened it to that sentence you quoted of me. Yes a wvw map should hold stuff for solo roamers, havoc, zergs, blobs because that is what wvw is and the vanilla maps fit these roles perfectly fine – although it’s getting harder and harder since last June/Hot. But surprise – we’ve discussed all of this lengthy.

I’m not confused, I did notice that you are different people haha! Maybe my post wasn’t clear enough, the point I was making is that the quotes aren’t saying the same thing at all and I assumed that no one could really believe that they were. If you honestly believe that they are the same then… yeah there’s not much left for you to say.

I know it’s useless but:

Sarrs: “I like the DBLs more because they prefer smaller group play”

Which is true and which is one reason why it’s unsuitable for wvw as we have it

Me: “You seem to want a pvp map”

That isn’t the same?

Jana.6831:

I know it’s useless

Well at least one part of this post is factual

Jana.6831:

Sarrs: “I like the DBLs more because they prefer smaller group play”

Which is true and which is one reason why it’s unsuitable for wvw as we have it

So you throw in a little shot at karmatrainers up there but you don’t think solo/small group play should be an option? Should WvW just automatically dump you into a blob and off you go?

Jana.6831:

Me: “You seem to want a pvp map”

That isn’t the same?

Are you joking?

Sarrs.4831:

Jana.6831:

Me: “You seem to want a pvp map”

That isn’t the same?

Are you joking?

Then tell me why I would be joking – otherwise you can just continue this endlessly and tell me that I’m wrong but not why. So?

Jana.6831:

Then tell me why I would be joking – otherwise you can just continue this endlessly and tell me that I’m wrong but not why. So?

Why are you joking? I don’t know. I’m asking because you’ve made a simply outlandish statement which I can’t see any other explanation for.

Why are you wrong? Because you’re conflating personal preference for what you like to do in WvW with objective criteria for what makes a WvW map.

Sarrs.4831:

Why are you wrong? Because you’re conflating personal preference for what you like to do in WvW with objective criteria for what makes a WvW map.

And you don’t? And no one on the forums does? And that isn’t the purpose of forums?

Sarrs.4831:

Why are you joking? I don’t know. I’m asking because you’ve made a simply outlandish statement which I can’t see any other explanation for.

*facepalm

Have fun

Jana.6831:

And you don’t? And no one on the forums does? And that isn’t the purpose of forums?

I’ve already said that I don’t like EBG yet I wouldn’t demand its deletion.

Jana.6831:

*facepalm

Have fun

Sulk as much as you like, I’m not the one who turned “DBL has more to do for small groups” into “you just want a 5v5 map”.

Sarrs.4831:

I’ve already said that I don’t like EBG yet I wouldn’t demand its deletion.

Where did I demand the DBLs to be gone forever? Hint: I didn’t.

Sarrs.4831:

Sulk as much as you like, I’m not the one who turned “DBL has more to do for small groups” into “you just want a 5v5 map”.

Adults usually explain things and don’t just insult – so in case you discover how to discuss things – otherwise all we’re doing is filling the internet with more junk.

ETA: And btw: You listed all the stuff solo roamers can do on the DBL and said yourself that it’s not much different to what solo roamers can do on EB, the map you hate – so I assumed that you realized yourself that you had no point.

Jana.6831:

Where did I demand the DBLs to be gone forever? Hint: I didn’t.

Removing them from active play or sending them to EotM is practically the same thing as deleting them.

Jana.6831:

Adults usually explain things and don’t just insult – so in case you discover how to discuss things – otherwise all we’re doing is filling the internet with more junk.

I’ve explained repeatedly the difference between personal preference and objective criteria. It didn’t work.

I do appreciate the irony in you saying that adults don’t insult people, and immediately turning around and insulting people, though.

Jana.6831:

ETA: And btw: You listed all the stuff solo roamers can do on the DBL and said yourself that it’s not much different to what solo roamers can do on EB, the map you hate – so I assumed that you realized yourself that you had no point.

No, there’s a point. You’re just missing it.
I don’t like EBG. I’m allowed to dislike EBG. You’re allowed to dislike DBL. Everyone’s allowed to like or dislike whatever they please. That’s personal preference. There are no points to be made here.
The point is personal preference is not grounds for asking for a map to be removed.

Sarrs.4831:

Removing them from active play or sending them to EotM is practically the same thing as deleting them.

No – You have a weird logic, really – just to be right? See I made plum jam the other day and the season is nearly over, so there won’t be any more plums for this year but they’re not deleted, they will come again next year.

Sarrs.4831:

I’ve explained repeatedly the difference between personal preference and objective criteria. It didn’t work.

You didn’t and I didn’t know that I should explain to you: You can do more solo on EB than you can do on the DBL. You can flip: 6 camps, kill the ogres, dredge and hyleks or get them as allies – they have more use than anything on the DBL. Is that objective enough? (I really thought you realized this yourself and I didn’t need to explain it once more).

Sarrs.4831:

I do appreciate the irony in you saying that adults don’t insult people, and immediately turning around and insulting people, though.

I told you that repeating nothing else than “you’re joking, you’re not allowed to have an opinion” while not explaining how you came to that conclusion is childish, yes.

Sarrs.4831:

No, there’s a point. You’re just missing it.
I don’t like EBG. I’m allowed to dislike EBG. You’re allowed to dislike DBL. Everyone’s allowed to like or dislike whatever they please. That’s personal preference. There are no points to be made here.
The point is personal preference is not grounds for asking for a map to be removed.

You are asking to keep the DBLs because of your personal preference.

ETA: You can solo roam, small scale, zerg, blob on the vanilla maps – it’s pretty hard to do anything but 3-15 on the DBL. So a huge part of the wvw players are excluded from that map. That is my point which I repeated multiple times. So basically one map is wasted and only a few can make use of it. That was intended but it shouldn’t be, especially not if anets goal seems to be to cramp as many people as possible onto “one” server.

Jana.6831:

No – You have a weird logic, really – just to be right? See I made plum jam the other day and the season is nearly over, so there won’t be any more plums for this year but they’re not deleted, they will come again next year.

Disputing the exact verbiage is a waste of time.

Jana.6831:

You didn’t and I didn’t know that I should explain to you: You can do more solo on EB than you can do on the DBL. You can flip: 6 camps, kill the ogres, dredge and hyleks or get them as allies – they have more use than anything on the DBL. Is that objective enough? (I really thought you realized this yourself and I didn’t need to explain it once more).

How many objectives there are to flip on EBG is completely irrelevant to my personal preference.
If you are making the case that DBL should be deleted because there are less objectives for comfortable soloing than EBG, then you should be deleting ABL first.

Jana.6831:

I told you that repeating nothing else than “you’re joking, you’re not allowed to have an opinion” while not explaining how you came to that conclusion is childish, yes.

>"you’re joking, you’re not allowed to have an opinion"
>boils down someone’s opinions on the DBL to “you just want a big 5v5 map”

okay friendo

Jana.6831:

You are asking to keep the DBLs because of your personal preference.

No, I’m asking that they not be deleted for someone else’s personal preference.
If there is a strong reason that isn’t fundamentally rooted in personal preference why they should be deleted, then I’ll agree with it. But there isn’t, so I don’t.

Jana.6831:

ETA: You can solo roam, small scale, zerg, blob on the vanilla maps – it’s pretty hard to do anything but 3-15 on the DBL.

I’ve solo flipped everything on DBL except Garri. Sorry, no, it isn’t hard to do anything solo there if you’re competent. That you think you need 3 people to be able to do anything on DBL just makes it seem like you’ve no idea what you’re doing.

Using uncommon words doesn’t make you smarter or more mature
I never said that map should be deleted, I just think it’s unfair to have only 1 DBL as the server who’s it assigned to either has an advantage or disadvantage. I also said it’s an unsuitable wvw map for the wvw we have.
No one ever said the DBLs should be deleted – try to get that into your head, ok? =)

If you have been able to solo flip a whole BL then there wasn’t a single enemy around. You can solo everything on the vanilla maps as well – In fact I soloed everything there and duo-loed all keeps including SM. If you have enemies then solo roaming is a pain on the DBL.

About SBI and the queues on our home DBL: if our favorite commander is there, there will be a queue, but he could be in the jumping puzzle and there would be a queue there

I personally don’t really like the DBL, because it is too much pve for wvw, distracting special buffs/debuffs, rarely any open zergfights happening and too much running time to get to any action. But I agree that we have EBG and the ABL for this already and if people like undistracted PPTing with roamers, then it surely is fun for them. So let them have it.

I came back to wvw with alpine BL and mostly stay on EBG and ABLs unless a commander needs more people on DBL.

Jana.6831:

I know it’s useless but:

Sarrs: “I like the DBLs more because they prefer smaller group play”

Which is true and which is one reason why it’s unsuitable for wvw as we have it

Me: “You seem to want a pvp map”

That isn’t the same?

Ok Jana, not trying to get between whatever’s going on here with you and Sarss but you did ask so I’m going to attempt to answer coherently, I’d appreciate it if you put similar effort into trying to understand what I’m saying and where I’m coming from.

You equated “I like having multiple coordinated small groups being capable of outmaneuvering a blob” with “I want a 5v5 pvp map”, where it would be literally impossible on a 5v5 pvp map to have more than two tiny groups vs one slightly larger group. So no, they’re not the same.

The bolded bit, however, is the part I find most disagreeable.
The way I see it:
Alpine borderlands have been essentially “solved” for a very long time, by which I mean people know the most optimal ways to do most things.
A certain play style has arisen around this solution. Not just where to place siege and routes between objectives but encompassing everything from zergs to havoc to solo roamers, where they act and what they do.
The desert borderlands are a different map, ie a different puzzle, with a slightly different solution.
Where I disagree with some people is when they say dbl is unsuitable for “wvw play”, because invariably what they mean is that the alpine borderland solution isn’t the most optimal solution there, but that’s a good thing! I know that the alpine solution is comfortable and widely understood and has the weight of nostalgia behind it, but that’s not enough in the long term for a lot of people. Variety and options are needed.

“DBL is not a strategic map”. If by that you mean that the strategies that are most optimal on alpine aren’t most optimal on desert then we agree, but you seem to be saying that the strategies that are most optimal on desert aren’t strategies and don’t belong in wvw as an equally valid play style, which is where I disagree. Strongly.

Apologies if this still isn’t as clear as I would have liked, it’s the first thing in the morning here.