Guild Wars 2

I came to this game because it was marketed as focusing on skills and not gear/stats in terms of World PvP. I figured I had found my permanent MMO home and it started out great, however, since release we have had the following carrots added:

-Ascended trinkets, +160 stats
-Ascended backpiece, ??
-Guard Leech, +200 stats
-Applied Fortitude, +2500 hps
-Bloodlusts, a maximum of +900 stats
*Five pieces of ascended armor are in the works. Who knows what stats they will have.

Now individually they don’t mean much but cumulatively they make a substantial difference.

Please for the love of all that is holy….. stop with the dam carrots in WWW!

The metaphor is about a donkey, not a rabbit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrot_and_stick

I think Ascended gear is a bad idea, PvE doesn’t need it (why couldn’t you just infuse your gear for agony resistance like GW1) and WvWvW sure as kitten doesn’t need it. And guard stacks on top of that, they added an insidious power creep.

For the reasons mentioned here and the general wvw situation stated in other threads I actually stopped playing, just waiting for Camelot Unchained now (or some miracle that restores the fun).
I’m just curious how many other players did the same.

Sureshot.6725:

I came to this game because it was marketed as focusing on skills and not gear/stats in terms of World PvP. I figured I had found my permanent MMO home and it started out great, however, since release we have had the following carrots added:

-Ascended trinkets, +160 stats
-Ascended backpiece, ??
-Guard Leech, +200 stats
-Applied Fortitude, +2500 hps
-Bloodlusts, a maximum of +900 stats
*Five pieces of ascended armor are in the works. Who knows what stats they will have.

Now individually they don’t mean much but cumulatively they make a substantial difference.

Please for the love of all that is holy….. stop with the dam carrots in WWW!

Yet all of that < coverage/population. Skill is meaningless in this game and PPT is the biggest carrot of them all.

Antiriad.7160:

I’m just curious how many other players did the same.

I quit playing after the ascended crafting update.

It seems that the argument against power creep in WvW held no sway whatsoever. I’m still hopeful though that once the ascended treadmill exhaust itself and the league fails miserably that anet might go in a different direction. There’s too much potential left in this game to let it all be flushed down the toilet.

I haven’t quit playing but I’m ignoring ascended stuff. If I get it as a drop ok, otherwise, meh. Not getting on that hamster wheel.

Oh yeah? Ignore ascended and be disappointed. Ascended weapons+trinkets net you about 15% more damage, and with a full set of ascended armor, that number will rise to around 25% more damage. Have fun in WvW and being at a 25% disadvantage against people who got the gear!

Unfortunately, ANet caved in to the grinders and the people who feel they need to “achieve” something in a virtual environment by sitting at a crafting station and running champ trains. I probably will never get into WvW (and I’ve been considering it previously). And the moment they buff the world/dungeons to compensate for ascended gear is the moment I’m done. I will NOT grind because if I wanted to keep doing that, I would’ve stuck with my previous MMO.

Whether you NEED Ascended gear or not is irrelevant, It was added for the sole purpose of keeping people grinding for longer and spending more RL money to buy gems or convert to gold.

Despite what Anet says, Once people have achieved all that they will without doubt add more useless stuff to keep you grinding like a robot and dipping into your wallet.

Want to know what beats Ascended gear?

Another person...

Antiriad.7160:

For the reasons mentioned here and the general wvw situation stated in other threads I actually stopped playing, just waiting for Camelot Unchained now (or some miracle that restores the fun).
I’m just curious how many other players did the same.

I partially did. Another reason was the spammy-meta.
At least two of my friends have left for that same reason as well.
I tried logging back in, took 30 minutes roaming around in WvW and even Blobaddons Borderland was totally deserted.
People have left sPvP and WvW. Wonder how the PvE-population thrives. Pretty bad I assume, since I just saw a thread stating that nobody does Tequatl anymore.

Teq: deserted
Pvp: deserted
WvW: deserted
average of 20 people doing medium bosses and around 50 doing dragons.

Just loaded up Baldur’s gate.. and,.. the tutorial is more interesting then gw2 storyline. :S

Treadmill.. I’m not sure why people keep using this term in GW2. Cause if this is truly a gear treadmill it must be set at a 1mph pace, over a year and we JUST got to weapons, armor hasn’t even made it.

How about you fatties just get up and walk on it. It’s not that hard.

Noah Blackheart.1904:

Treadmill.. I’m not sure why people keep using this term in GW2. Cause if this is truly a gear treadmill it must be set at a 1mph pace, over a year and we JUST got to weapons, armor hasn’t even made it.

How about you fatties just get up and walk on it. It’s not that hard.

A threadmill nonetheless. And here are some funfacts for you.

Arenanet specifically promised they would not do this. Once you got your max tier gear that would be it. Your progression would be cosmetic.
At this rate we’ve got a mighty big powercreep in WvW as it is. A new player in freshly acquired exotic gear will be at a considerable disadvantage when fighting someone in ascended with the WXP stat boosts.

And while we’re going with the whole insidious thing. Here’s another funfact. Suppose you bought skins. You spend real money to get some skins, a lot of people did.
Now, with ascended gear showing up, if you want to keep those skins and move up to the new gear plateau you need to spend more money to keep the skins you already payed for.

And who says it ends at ascended? Arenanet never did, not that anyone would even believe them if they did. This way they can not only keep you grinding new gear over and over, especially if you got alts. But also keep you paying for the skins you already bought again and again.

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

Teq: deserted
Pvp: deserted
WvW: deserted
average of 20 people doing medium bosses and around 50 doing dragons.

Just loaded up Baldur’s gate.. and,.. the tutorial is more interesting then gw2 storyline. :S

Pouring loads of money into a game does not equal quality. Who would have thought that? I, for one, expected a lot more out of this game. Sad to say with Living Story, WvW, and “Special” PvP, I am utterly disappointed. * sigh *

A full set, as far as the stuff goes, that has been implemented yet, is achievable as a WvW player. But ONLY if you are ready to sidetrack. Go gather T6 recourse nodes in PvE (takes about 20-30 mins for cursed shore, malcor’s leap and frostgorge sound) and do some CoF (takes about 10-15 mins in P1, that’s what I am doing). It is still a compromise, and dare you go for alternative gear or multiple characters, then you are screwed.

Maybe it was thought to give the PvE Scrubs a fighting chance in WvW, for they have it way easier to gather the stuff. However it is still a power creep and that was not what was promised by Anet.

If the ascended armor, they are about to introduce, will be super easy to get even for a WvW player (like just a bit harder to get than exotic gear), then the trinket bonus might be okay to live with, if you don’t have it. But best would be imho, they would introduce ways to get all ascended stuff via WvW batches and laurels, maybe some gold too.

Antiriad.7160:

For the reasons mentioned here and the general wvw situation stated in other threads I actually stopped playing, just waiting for Camelot Unchained now (or some miracle that restores the fun).
I’m just curious how many other players did the same.

I haven’t quit yet only because I’m not paying a subscription and I’m still competitive. However, I will not be forced to run fractals or craft to remain competitive so the moment I notice I’m no longer competitive that’s when I stop playing.

It sure is fun stomping another group of players just ‘cause you’ve got Superior Borderlands Bloodlust, is it not?

Make me farm dungeons, Anet, I want moar grinding in my PvP.

come to spvp, 0 gear earning, only thing u can farm up is appearance.

daydream.2938:

come to spvp, 0 gear earning, only thing u can farm up is appearance.

Come to SPvP and oh btw everything’s broken there. No thank you. Return to your hole of a forum. Lol

Terrahero.9358:

Noah Blackheart.1904:

Treadmill.. I’m not sure why people keep using this term in GW2. Cause if this is truly a gear treadmill it must be set at a 1mph pace, over a year and we JUST got to weapons, armor hasn’t even made it.

How about you fatties just get up and walk on it. It’s not that hard.

A threadmill nonetheless. And here are some funfacts for you.

Arenanet specifically promised they would not do this. Once you got your max tier gear that would be it. Your progression would be cosmetic.
At this rate we’ve got a mighty big powercreep in WvW as it is. A new player in freshly acquired exotic gear will be at a considerable disadvantage when fighting someone in ascended with the WXP stat boosts.

And while we’re going with the whole insidious thing. Here’s another funfact. Suppose you bought skins. You spend real money to get some skins, a lot of people did.
Now, with ascended gear showing up, if you want to keep those skins and move up to the new gear plateau you need to spend more money to keep the skins you already payed for.

And who says it ends at ascended? Arenanet never did, not that anyone would even believe them if they did. This way they can not only keep you grinding new gear over and over, especially if you got alts. But also keep you paying for the skins you already bought again and again.

Those aren’t facts, I’m pretty sure you just overheard on vent in guild chat, random postings but never bothered to look for yourself since it’s more convenient to just believe whatever anyone says so long as it backs you up. People have falsely laid claim to Anet stating in their Manifesto about no gear treadmill in their Manifesto, at first I believed it when the topic of having exotic gear was too overpowering to those who did not own them (yep that’s right, people complained Exotic gear is way too hard to get). When I searched for the manifesto I read it through and it basically had nothing remotely close to Anet saying there would be no gear “treadmill”. In fact here is a post which has close to everything related to the Manifesto:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/The-Manifesto-Word-for-Word

There is perhaps 2 things they have said in there that might, if bent at a 90 degree angle could be considered them stating there’s no treadmill in the game.

As for updating your look once you’ve acquired Ascended gear, well. I still have a decent amount of Transmute Stones from dailies long ago, and I’m not sure if I still get them since I just throw them in my bank tab and not really think much about it. But Anet provides a means without spending money, if you want to spend real money on cosmetics, that’s on you.

Katz.5143:

I haven’t quit playing but I’m ignoring ascended stuff. If I get it as a drop ok, otherwise, meh. Not getting on that hamster wheel.

This^^

If Ascended gear becomes an issue for me and I can’t get it by normal play (i.e. fighting in WvW) – then I’ll just quit. There are other games.

Contiguous.1345:

Katz.5143:

I haven’t quit playing but I’m ignoring ascended stuff. If I get it as a drop ok, otherwise, meh. Not getting on that hamster wheel.

This^^

If Ascended gear becomes an issue for me and I can’t get it by normal play (i.e. fighting in WvW) – then I’ll just quit. There are other games.

Same. But I actually already have quit, ascended won’t make much difference in the huge imbalance WvW is at this moment… zergfest, gah.

Noah Blackheart.1904:

.

Im not actually basing this on one single video.

http://www.warcry.com/news/view/127267-Guild-Wars-2-State-of-the-Game-WarCry-Interview.2

“Guild Wars 2 isn’t about vertical gear progression. It’s about being out in the world. We don’t want the gear grind. The gear grind prevents players from playing together, and fragments the community. We would rather give people more different things to do and give them non-mechanical rewards.”

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/

Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.

It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.

Along with the video and its entirely reasonable for people to believe no gear threadmill. And this is what Anet was laureled for by the community, and they sure as hell made no effort to correct anyone. Untill ascended gear came along and it turned out to be a stat increase.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/11/15/arenanet-guild-wars-2-ascended-backlash/

Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from Exotic up to Legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two.

That was the idea behind Ascended, atleast the official version of it. But, as the article also pointed out, this does not explain why there is suddenly a stat increase.

O’Brien comments

“I hope we’ve been clear that Guild Wars 2 is not a game with virtually no stat progression in it like Guild Wars was,”

Well obviously not. Or the community wouldnt hit them with such a severe backlash, or praise them before all this for not having a gear progression. And when looking through the earlier sources (pre-release/shortly post release) it was never stated that they even considered a gear progression. Infact, it the exact opposite was lead to believe.

And this still doesnt wipe away my second concern of how skins are going to keep costing you money for continued use.

They still have not allowed vial essence, the required mat for ascended backpacks, outside their miserable fractals. They promised they would do it within a few months after they launched the despicable fractals. This was a lie.

Shady of them, but once again they did not say there would be no gear treadmill and thus far the treadmill isn’t much of a grind (jump in with the "it’s still a grind). For those who chose so, yes it is, but if we are specifically talking about WvW, the stat differences makes little to no difference unless you are doing 1v1 or small man fair fights (not even gvg should the ascended gear matter). As for new player argument, that is completely out. If a new player is in the game and just got to 80 he’s not going to have exotic gear, gear properly, or the experience. Feel free to name a few people who have, but they are the exception not the norm.

So far the only game mode that requires a gear grind, is PvE, specifically Fractals where you need AR to progress, outsdie of that everything else doesn’t require Ascended gear to be successful, unless you are part of the extremely small 1v1 5v5 groups who are constantly running into other 1v1 and 5v5 groups and for some reason the other group has full ascended and you have exotics only (which is pretty hard consdiering you can get most of the Ascended gear without “grinding” (back piece and weapons not obtainable atm).

As for the backlash from the community, it’s been like this since the beggining with Exotic gear as I have said, and everyone pointed out to the manifesto as “proof”. Sure maybe you might be one of the few who have been here “before the start”, but I doubt the large community has, because everytime this is brought up everyone just points to the manifesto, and when someone does read it and pointed out that it does not say anything about no treadmilling, people just go on and ignore it. I am not saying you don’t have a point, I am saying the backlash was based on an assumption, not facts, in most cases it was just based on word of mouth, no one even bothered to verify. It’s not about ascended being a stat increase, because this is just a matter of lazy people perceiving some grand advantage Ascended gear is giving them. I say lazy because when Ascended wasn’t around people cried about exotics.

Only kitting my Ranger out in ascended crap b/c it’s the only class that’s so far behind all other classes that it actually needs it. Guardian is such cheese that I feel like I’m completely over-geared by comparison in just exotics…

Noah Blackheart.1904:

As for the backlash from the community, it’s been like this since the beggining with Exotic gear as I have said, and everyone pointed out to the manifesto as “proof”. Sure maybe you might be one of the few who have been here “before the start”, but I doubt the large community has, because everytime this is brought up everyone just points to the manifesto, and when someone does read it and pointed out that it does not say anything about no treadmilling, people just go on and ignore it. I am not saying you don’t have a point, I am saying the backlash was based on an assumption, not facts, in most cases it was just based on word of mouth, no one even bothered to verify. It’s not about ascended being a stat increase, because this is just a matter of lazy people perceiving some grand advantage Ascended gear is giving them. I say lazy because when Ascended wasn’t around people cried about exotics.

I categorically disagree with your assertion that players who don’t want to go for ascended equipment are lazy. There are legitimate reasons not to waste your time playing the gear game. In my case, I would probably bite the bullet and do it if I was certain that a time investment in an ascended piece would be the last for that slot, but it won’t be without stat selection or a guarantee against another round of stat creep down the road.

I’m not really mad about it though. Rewards and persistent “bunnies chasing rabbits” as the OP stated it have become the norm and expectation in most games. My fondest memories of gaming were dumb games like UT that you simply loaded and started playing. Progression was your perceived improvement at the game. The excitement of a close game against good competition was the intoxicating addiction. I’ve been playing the BF4 beta the last few days and what now…gun unlocks that are almost like MMO character leveling time wise and cash shop / level RNG rewards…oh boy.

I think you are the type of player that needs to take a break and examine whether this is really worth your time, or if you’ve only become a lab rat hitting buttons and spending money on the game.

Noah Blackheart.1904:

It’s not about ascended being a stat increase, because this is just a matter of lazy people perceiving some grand advantage Ascended gear is giving them. I say lazy because when Ascended wasn’t around people cried about exotics.

All you’re arguing is PvPers are “lazy” because they would rather PvP then be forced to grind PvE or TP. Ok then…

Its a mmo. Regardless of what was stated by them, it can and will change. Especially with gear. To think it won’t change is foolish. Mmo games have carrots and almost always will. They could however make wvw more like spvp when it comes to gearing up.

how hard is it to allow vial essences to be obtained via wvw? seriously. that’s not a change, it’s a lie.

this – http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/08/29/guild-wars-2-a-grind-by-any-other-name/

and this -

So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun;

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/

Oh no the “the manifesto is a lie” ghouls spawned again!

almost makes you wonder about bait and switch and all the abuse people take on the forum trying to say pvp’rs shouldn’t have to grind for stats.

Ricky.4706:

almost makes you wonder about bait and switch and all the abuse people take on the forum trying to say pvp’rs shouldn’t have to grind for stats.

Hm you kept posting the manifesto trailer. Did you forgot about the Dev Blogpost about WvW were they said that people will have “unfair” advantages ?

overpopulated servers have nothing to do with grinding for pvp gear. you are mixing apples and horses.

Terrahero.9358:

Noah Blackheart.1904:

.

Im not actually basing this on one single video.

http://www.warcry.com/news/view/127267-Guild-Wars-2-State-of-the-Game-WarCry-Interview.2

“Guild Wars 2 isn’t about vertical gear progression. It’s about being out in the world. We don’t want the gear grind. The gear grind prevents players from playing together, and fragments the community. We would rather give people more different things to do and give them non-mechanical rewards.”

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/

Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.

It all gets back to our basic design philosophy. Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward. Our games are designed to be fun from moment to moment.

Along with the video and its entirely reasonable for people to believe no gear threadmill. And this is what Anet was laureled for by the community, and they sure as hell made no effort to correct anyone. Untill ascended gear came along and it turned out to be a stat increase.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/11/15/arenanet-guild-wars-2-ascended-backlash/

Our goal is to ensure we have a proper progression for players from Exotic up to Legendary without a massive jump in reward between the two.

That was the idea behind Ascended, atleast the official version of it. But, as the article also pointed out, this does not explain why there is suddenly a stat increase.

O’Brien comments

“I hope we’ve been clear that Guild Wars 2 is not a game with virtually no stat progression in it like Guild Wars was,”

Well obviously not. Or the community wouldnt hit them with such a severe backlash, or praise them before all this for not having a gear progression. And when looking through the earlier sources (pre-release/shortly post release) it was never stated that they even considered a gear progression. Infact, it the exact opposite was lead to believe.

And this still doesnt wipe away my second concern of how skins are going to keep costing you money for continued use.

My hero! has every single promise laid out piece by piece.

That kind of dedication in making sure that trolls have no leg to stand on is why I keep coming back to the forums.

Your comments are not falling on ALL deaf ears. WvW is a gear grind. When I get my necro to 80 with exotics, as you say, I will be severely disadvantaged, so much so that I will need to spend laurels, gold and more to get geared so I don’t end up, again, running from the waypoint over and over and OVER again – and then giving up on WvW altogether ’cause I, like many, are tired of the grinding and the “I am so much more geared than you, so I can one-shot or half-hit you and you will be dead, not just downed.” overgeared monsters who dance on our dead bodies and tell us how useless we are.

atheria.2837:

Your comments are not falling on ALL deaf ears. WvW is a gear grind. When I get my necro to 80 with exotics, as you say, I will be severely disadvantaged, so much so that I will need to spend laurels, gold and more to get geared so I don’t end up, again, running from the waypoint over and over and OVER again – and then giving up on WvW altogether ’cause I, like many, are tired of the grinding and the “I am so much more geared than you, so I can one-shot or half-hit you and you will be dead, not just downed.” overgeared monsters who dance on our dead bodies and tell us how useless we are.

It is not a gear grind. If you play the game, all of those things come to you in time. It is only a grind if you want it immediately. Further this game favors zerglets/casuals so much that it spoon feeds you the gear a lot faster then those of us that spend no time doing PvE or running around in zergs.

Bottom line is most people in this game play at such a low level the fact that they have WXP abilities, ascended gear and 3 stacks of blood lust just means they take 10 seconds longer to kill. All you folks crying about this stuff likely fall into that crowd.

In 1v1 it makes a bit of a difference, but in a 30-70v30-70 it will always equal out and that is how most of you play anyways.

Ricky.4706:

overpopulated servers have nothing to do with grinding for pvp gear. you are mixing apples and horses.

W-what? I was quoting your on the subject of “statgrinding”

Why do people misuse “treadmill” every time?

Treadmill is what WoW/Rift/Aion/etc does: Raid to get new iLvl gear to be able to do new Raid to get new iLvl gear to be able to do new Raid…

The state of this game is just alt unfriendly to some degree. The ascended crafting is probably the least alt unfriendly since once its leveled, you can churn out the items if you have the coin/supply stock.

Vena.8436:

Why do people misuse “treadmill” every time?

Treadmill is what WoW/Rift/Aion/etc does: Raid to get new iLvl gear to be able to do new Raid to get new iLvl gear to be able to do new Raid…

The state of this game is just alt unfriendly to some degree. The ascended crafting is probably the least alt unfriendly since once its leveled, you can churn out the items if you have the coin/supply stock.

I think MMOers have some weird fetish for their own Jargon. A treadmill is merely a device that for walking or running while staying in the same place. As applied to games, I view it as the illusion of progression. For each bit of increased damage is offset by a countering increase in armor or vitality.

So far this does not apply to PVE. Ascended weapons just make easy content easier.

It does apply to WvW. For ascended trinkets, defensive stat allocations can compensate for offensive stat allocations. One person gets more power, the other gets more toughness. At best, fights end sooner cause everyone uses zerker trinkets.

Ascended weapons also increase damage by an extra 5% through increased weapon power. Once ascended armor comes out, I bet we see that armor is increased by 5% to compensate. Net effect. Nothing changes, but we do a lot of work to have nothing change.

That, to me, is a treadmill.

well said, and a most eloquent explanation!