Guild Wars 2

Thieves are a lot of fun.
Recommend them for everyone =D

Running into another all thief havoc team can be some really fun fights.

Anyone defending Thieves and saying that they’re not overpowered and that people just need to learn to play is ignoring one vital fact:
In creating a purchasable consumable that is basically for combating one particular class, ArenaNet themselves have admitted that Thieves are overpowered.
After all, do you need to buy a special consumable item in order to beat Warriors reliably in WvW?

Mungrul.9358:

Anyone defending Thieves and saying that they’re not overpowered and that people just need to learn to play is ignoring one vital fact:
In creating a purchasable consumable that is basically for combating one particular class, ArenaNet themselves have admitted that Thieves are overpowered.
After all, do you need to buy a special consumable item in order to beat Warriors reliably in WvW?

That might have been the case but Anet also rolled out that supply trap which works best through thieves. I think the two were meant to balance each other out.

The stealth trap wasn’t meant for thieves. It was meant for mesmers. Veil doesn’t have a target limit, and having 3 mesmers drop veils can stealth an entire zerg for a scary amount of time.

Thief burst is high due to downed state.

This poorly designed down state mechanic is tied to almost everything. Balancing decisions are based on the idea that you can still fight back and rally while downed.

Almost all roamers out there are thieves (myself included) and though it’s sort of hilarious, it’s slowly getting dull.

Those who think thieves aren’t op have to be quite bad players themselves, or just don’t know a single good thief.

I generally start any thief fight by throwing down my longbow burst fire field combined with pin down when the thief reveals themselves. I follow that up with my burst AoE, and when that rotation is on cooldown and the thief stealths, I dodge after a second or so and follow it up with endure pain since the thief is guaranteed to use backstab within that time. By that point I can use eviscerate and my whirl attacks timed right to mess up a backstab again.

Longbow warrior against a thief ? Whahahahahhah

I dodge after a second or so and follow it up with endure pain since the thief is guaranteed to use backstab within that time

Really? Well I just laugh in my perma stealth when you pop your endure pain at nothing. Oh, unless if I’m on my p/d build. Then I just use sneak attack xD.

roamzero.9486:

Mungrul.9358:

Anyone defending Thieves and saying that they’re not overpowered and that people just need to learn to play is ignoring one vital fact:
In creating a purchasable consumable that is basically for combating one particular class, ArenaNet themselves have admitted that Thieves are overpowered.
After all, do you need to buy a special consumable item in order to beat Warriors reliably in WvW?

That might have been the case but Anet also rolled out that supply trap which works best through thieves. I think the two were meant to balance each other out.

Yeah, cause I totally gonna spend 5 seconds of my time being stunned to lay down the trap, 15 badges and 10 supply to have a chance of the thief getting the debuff.

Why a chance?
Well, if the enemy already got the debuff on him, the effect wont stack or refresh. So basicly you wasted 5 seconds, 15 badges and 10 supply for nothing.

BlackDevil.9268:

Why a chance?
Well, if the enemy already got the debuff on him, the effect wont stack or refresh. So basicly you wasted 5 seconds, 15 badges and 10 supply for nothing.

That’s not how it works, if an enemy walks over a stealth trap and is not in stealth then the trap will trigger but will have absolutely no effect. It has nothing to do with the thief already having the revealed debuff on him.

Master of Timespace.2548:

Almost all roamers out there are thieves (myself included) and though it’s sort of hilarious, it’s slowly getting dull.

Those who think thieves aren’t op have to be quite bad players themselves, or just don’t know a single good thief.

I generally start any thief fight by throwing down my longbow burst fire field combined with pin down when the thief reveals themselves. I follow that up with my burst AoE, and when that rotation is on cooldown and the thief stealths, I dodge after a second or so and follow it up with endure pain since the thief is guaranteed to use backstab within that time. By that point I can use eviscerate and my whirl attacks timed right to mess up a backstab again.

Longbow warrior against a thief ? Whahahahahhah

I dodge after a second or so and follow it up with endure pain since the thief is guaranteed to use backstab within that time

Really? Well I just laugh in my perma stealth when you pop your endure pain at nothing. Oh, unless if I’m on my p/d build. Then I just use sneak attack xD.

Thieves are easy. Telling me I’m not a good player because I can easily take down a thief just shows how ignorant you really are as thieves, just like high-burst greatsword warriors. I haven’t lost a single fight to a thief in months, and it’s obviously not because I’m a bad player. I’ve done my research. I’ve played your class. I have a level 80 thief with full ascended. I know your tricks and I know how to kill you. Plain as that. There have been times just in the past week where two burst thieves try to hank me and they end up dead, so I do take some offense when you tell me I don’t know anything.

I do know ONE good thief that I’ve deemed “good”, and he doesn’t play high burst. He runs apothecary gear, never dies and melts people with conditions. Even s/p warriors with tons of condition removal can’t cleanse the amount that he throws down, and I’ve seen him take down a small zerg on his own simply by conditions. His build is also more powerful the more players he’s up against because all they do is proc his healing. That’s a good thief. High burst, fail, run away thieves are not. If you think that you can last in a fight as a burst thief you’re sorely mistaken. The philosophy behind zerker gear is to DPS them down before they DPS you down. If you fail to do that you either run away or die. This is true for all DPS builds, thieves and all other classes alike, unless you’re too useless in the head to retreat, in which case you must be tired of constantly dying.

You mustn’t have ever met a good warrior, and I don’t blame you. Most of them are just as kitteny and ignorant as high burst thieves.

Waffler.1257:

BlackDevil.9268:

Why a chance?
Well, if the enemy already got the debuff on him, the effect wont stack or refresh. So basicly you wasted 5 seconds, 15 badges and 10 supply for nothing.

That’s not how it works, if an enemy walks over a stealth trap and is not in stealth then the trap will trigger but will have absolutely no effect. It has nothing to do with the thief already having the revealed debuff on him.

Wrong, if someone walks over it without being stealthed or already having the revealed debuff on him it still gives 30 seconds of revealed debuff. I’m 100% sure about that since I had it myself a couple of times with a full raid walking over it, having 30 seconds revealed debuff.
It would, after all, make the trap kinda difficult to design if (since it’s aoe revealed) the effect of the activation of the trap is only being triggered if someone in stealth would walk over it.

Trying to kill a permstealthed thief reminds me of trying to counter Dark Templar in Starcraft without any anti-cloaking unit/tech..haha.

Honestly the numbers speak for themselves, and anyone who does a significant amount of WvW has seen it. Roaming is almost the “fight thieves” mode of the game at this point. Which exacerbates the problem even further.

Fighting a thief 1v1 isn’t that horrific if you know their mechanics (play one, if only to learn), yes they can reset but most give up if you brush them off 2/3 times and many will get greedy and die. But many players who could handle a 1v2 against other classes will get wrecked by a pair of even somewhat competent thieves.

If the cause were all other Thief builds sucking, their population wouldn’t have ballooned like this. Don’t get me wrong, they need more build diversity (like a lot of classes) but stealth is out of control at this point. Bring back 4s revealed at least, that should thin their numbers a bit.

Oh and make it so that if you hit someone with the Heartseeker through Black Powder the stealth fails with revealed.

BlackDevil.9268:

Waffler.1257:

BlackDevil.9268:

Why a chance?
Well, if the enemy already got the debuff on him, the effect wont stack or refresh. So basicly you wasted 5 seconds, 15 badges and 10 supply for nothing.

That’s not how it works, if an enemy walks over a stealth trap and is not in stealth then the trap will trigger but will have absolutely no effect. It has nothing to do with the thief already having the revealed debuff on him.

Wrong, if someone walks over it without being stealthed or already having the revealed debuff on him it still gives 30 seconds of revealed debuff. I’m 100% sure about that since I had it myself a couple of times with a full raid walking over it, having 30 seconds revealed debuff.
It would, after all, make the trap kinda difficult to design if (since it’s aoe revealed) the effect of the activation of the trap is only being triggered if someone in stealth would walk over it.

I have fought plenty of thieves 1v1 while using stealth traps on them. I have seen them run over the trap while visible triggering it and then stealth a couple seconds later on many occasions because the revealed debuff didn’t apply. I think a 1v1 is more conclusive than running around in a big raid because I know exactly who triggered the trap and I know whether they were in stealth or not at the time they triggered it.

full toughness armor, and i got surprised by this thief, dont even have time to WT happen? compare my damage, and hes damage.

Viking Jorun.5413:

The philosophy behind zerker gear is to DPS them down before they DPS you down. If you fail to do that you either run away or die. This is true for all DPS builds, thieves and all other classes alike, unless you’re too useless in the head to retreat, in which case you must be tired of constantly dying.

I just wanna take that part and i wanna really look at the line “DPS them down Before They DPS you down If you fail to do that you run or die”
i would say that’s pretty true but again not with a thief i roll a Zerker thief its my only zerker class just for some fun now and then, i also took it on my self to try not to use HS in fights and i found very quick as a Zerker thief i had no need for it CnD with the right gear dose amazing damage for it job a High damage melee cloak that gives Vulnerability that’s just crazy and then just BS till i down my target then CnD on them and finish ( i have blind on cloak) i have no need to run away when i can run around and CnD off my target walk away (or shadow step) and steal right back (i cloak on steal) and by doing this im applying Vulnerability + doing large damage and i can just run past my target and run away a little and come back BS and CnD again the more people im fighting the easier this is till it becomes a zerg then i have to change play style but against 1-5 people maybe a few more its not hard to kill a few of them before they start to run away then its just a matter of killing the slowest

My hole point is the Majority of people have this tunnel vision on not just how a class should be build but how they should be played again not everyone is like that just allot of people or there scared to play out of the box.

Mesmer Vs thief in the end is just Skill level really for me anyways a good mesmer will kill or drive off a low skill thief even i can drive away low skill thieves with my mesmer and im horrible with mesmer lol i also fined that moving around allot helps but again if your a mesmer i hope your moving allot lol

kishter.9578:

full toughness armor, and i got surprised by this thief, dont even have time to WT happen? compare my damage, and hes damage.

I’m not sure what build you’re going for but those stats seem pretty terrible and I’m not sure how you managed them. The attached pic shows the stats of one BM ranger variant I use in sPvP which has 100 more attack, 150 more healing power, 300 more condition damage, and 500 more armor than your ranger. The crit chance and life is a little lower, but not near enough to make up for what you’re missing. Not to mention these are sPvP stats, so you can stack more stats with PvE gear especially with the availability of ascended gear and infusions. Moreover, you can get 25 stacks from weapon modifiers giving you another +250 stats and you can get another +260ish stats from using food buffs. All of this however is irrelevant as you said you were surprised by the thief, in which case yeah, if you aren’t paying attention then you will get hit for lots of damage by thieves. You have 2 dodge rolls (more if you run energy sigils), an evade on your short bow, more evades on a sword or gs or dagger, and lightning reflexes for yet another evade. Thieves are one of the easiest classes to take out as a ranger, so by all means try to get better.

Stealth is just too good in WvW, in sPvP you have to take points, and hold them, bunkers really have a purpose here and whilst stealthed you are not considered to be contesting a point but this is not the case with WvW.

If you want to roam and kill people some classes are just far and away better than others at doing it, most notably thieves and mesmers, although mesmers are slow as hell. Thieves for WvW have it all, mobile, crazy burst, and so much stealth they are only visible for a few seconds at a time and if played well can reset the fight over and over until they get the upper hand. Some paltry extra toughness classes have for heavy armour is absolutely no substitute for stealth and lolclones(with stealth also).

There are so many thieves and mesmers in WvW because they are just too good people will tire of being trolled by shatter/phantasm mesmers, either is pretty godly and thieves(pick a spec, unload wild bill style, massive burst backstab).

Taking a 12k shatter(come on what mesmer doesnt illusionary leap, dodgeroll/mirror images shatter) to the face or insta dieing from backstab is not overly a fun mechanic to deal with. Add this to the frustration of dealing with a class thats only visible for a few seconds at a time to try and get a target on or keeps popping out clones and also has stealth and you can understand why people are complaining.

In 1v1’s its kind of alright, you know the thief is out there, u just seen him stealth so you are ready for the steal c’n’d and backstab or the unload. But this is rarely the case, it’s usually engaged in a fight and the attack comes out of nowhere, a second of lag and you are gone.

Having said all that, i rolled a thief and mesmer, and until they are nerfed(which for the good of the game they should be)i will continue to faceroll my keyboard and kill people.

Ultravalefor.5038:

Just ignore them—don’t feed and it’ll go away and look for responses elsewhere. Roaming WvW thieves are looking to feed on your rage. Thief is the Troll class, anet got completely carried away making them and people have taken that to the next level, as the players always take things further than the devs can envision.

Mesmers are pretty slow, at least from what I’ve seen/heard, so maybe you should roll a class more suited to escaping from others, like a… oh yeah, have you tried a Thief?

Isn’t that showing that something is Terribly wrong with the class,if people say Just ignore them…If even Developers say “Just ignore the thief”…Anet fix Thiefs allready,and if you got no clue on how to fix them,come out and say so….So the players will fix the class for you….

Coming from a mesmer this is quite laughable. Spec phantasm get 3 zerkers out, thiefs eats burst as soon as he leaves stealth from 3 zerkers everytime. If he keeps CnDing ur zerkers down just recast, thief wont be damaging you if he decides to kill ur phantasms

kishter.9578:

full toughness armor, and i got surprised by this thief, dont even have time to WT happen? compare my damage, and hes damage.

Are you sub 80? Full toughness armor and that’s your defense rating? I don’t even run full primary toughness stat armor and have like 3100 armor on my Engineer (which is also a medium armor profession).

Waffler.1257:

I’m not sure what build you’re going for but those stats seem pretty terrible and I’m not sure how you managed them. The attached pic shows the stats of one BM ranger variant I use in sPvP which has 100 more attack, 150 more healing power, 300 more condition damage, and 500 more armor than your ranger. The crit chance and life is a little lower, but not near enough to make up for what you’re missing. Not to mention these are sPvP stats, so you can stack more stats with PvE gear especially with the availability of ascended gear and infusions. Moreover, you can get 25 stacks from weapon modifiers giving you another +250 stats and you can get another +260ish stats from using food buffs. All of this however is irrelevant as you said you were surprised by the thief, in which case yeah, if you aren’t paying attention then you will get hit for lots of damage by thieves. You have 2 dodge rolls (more if you run energy sigils), an evade on your short bow, more evades on a sword or gs or dagger, and lightning reflexes for yet another evade. Thieves are one of the easiest classes to take out as a ranger, so by all means try to get better.

Velron.3729:

Are you sub 80? Full toughness armor and that’s your defense rating? I don’t even run full primary toughness stat armor and have like 3100 armor on my Engineer (which is also a medium armor profession).

running a full Apothecary gear set, trinkets, armor, weapon, everything. also my weapon boots wast up yet since i was just joining the WvW, and i think i wants using food yet ether

and yea its time to find what im doing wrong, i have a feeling long time ago something is no right in my build.

edit: some modifications and now this is my stats.
edit3: i make a test, the 1st pic was my stats in dead state, the new pic is my real stats alive. I just suicide in LA to see what wrong.

Really all they need to do is nerf the stealth and the rest is fine, longer cool downs or whatever.

kishter.9578:

Waffler.1257:

I’m not sure what build you’re going for but those stats seem pretty terrible and I’m not sure how you managed them. The attached pic shows the stats of one BM ranger variant I use in sPvP which has 100 more attack, 150 more healing power, 300 more condition damage, and 500 more armor than your ranger. The crit chance and life is a little lower, but not near enough to make up for what you’re missing. Not to mention these are sPvP stats, so you can stack more stats with PvE gear especially with the availability of ascended gear and infusions. Moreover, you can get 25 stacks from weapon modifiers giving you another +250 stats and you can get another +260ish stats from using food buffs. All of this however is irrelevant as you said you were surprised by the thief, in which case yeah, if you aren’t paying attention then you will get hit for lots of damage by thieves. You have 2 dodge rolls (more if you run energy sigils), an evade on your short bow, more evades on a sword or gs or dagger, and lightning reflexes for yet another evade. Thieves are one of the easiest classes to take out as a ranger, so by all means try to get better.

Velron.3729:

Are you sub 80? Full toughness armor and that’s your defense rating? I don’t even run full primary toughness stat armor and have like 3100 armor on my Engineer (which is also a medium armor profession).

running a full Apothecary gear set, trinkets, armor, weapon, everything. also my weapon boots wast up yet since i was just joining the WvW, and i think i wants using food yet ether

and yea its time to find what im doing wrong, i have a feeling long time ago something is no right in my build.

edit: some modifications and now this is my stats.

Hey man the stats look much improved.

With that much armor and that much healing power you should be able to tank through almost any thieve’s damage really. Will just be a matter of learning how to play it to its strengths.

A lot of beating thieves though really comes down to making them miss really important attacks (cloak and daggers for example)or knocking them out of their refuge, etc.

D/P will be the hardest to finish off bc they have the easy stealth and get away combo, but them actually killing you should be extremely difficult as well. It uses a ton of initiative to put down that smoke screen, just move away from it, force them to blow a couple of those for stealths and they will be waiting on initiative to do anything more. When they go stealth you should be moving around quickly, dodging, blocking, etc…if you can avoid the backstab until they reveal that can really mess up the game plan. Especially if you’ve already made them blow most of their initiative.

The amount of healing power you have should allow you to significantly recover from any damage they actually do land on you while exposed. D/P really relies on you not being able to recover the damage between the bursts, there’s a lot of in stealth time where the enemy can easily be healing up if they have the ability to do so.

Oh and if you have AOEs you can be dropping around yourself, this is a big issues for them as well. I’m usually running bombs on my Engi, funny how badly those mess them up.

Thieves really are a troll class in GW2 when it comes to WvW. The fact that I can go in a group with 3 or 4 other guildies and a thief wipes out 3 or 4 of us is pretty bad. And I admit I am not the best at PvP/WvW, but still 1 thief wiping out 3-4 people? Avoid thieves as best you can. Honestly, I’d be fine if I didn’t have to retarget them every time they exit stealth.

Stramatus.5219:

Thieves really are a troll class in GW2 when it comes to WvW. The fact that I can go in a group with 3 or 4 other guildies and a thief wipes out 3 or 4 of us is pretty bad. And I admit I am not the best at PvP/WvW, but still 1 thief wiping out 3-4 people? Avoid thieves as best you can. Honestly, I’d be fine if I didn’t have to retarget them every time they exit stealth.

If you are running a group of 4-5 people and a thief comes and wipes out 3 or 4 of you, that just means you all need to learn how to PVP on your professions better. GW2’s combat system rewards skill and that sounds like a kitten good thief vs 5 bad players or lowbies. Thieves should not suffer additional nerfs just bc they have the potential to really wreck bad players.

I’ll try to stay as objective as possible, but as a thief, I can admit some mechanic are a little over the top, but stealth is not one of them.

I can only advise you to play a thief for a while, to understand the mechanic, they way of thinking and their weaknesses. Stealth is the only way for thieves to avoid damage, they have no access to an invul skill, block or protection and at the time is mandatory for dmg-purpose. Thief tend to have low HP pool, and therefore, further nerf would shut down the class.

Don’t forget that thief is the only class with a “energy” system aka initiative : that’s why switching weapons is not as efficient as other classes and this tend to make them keep one weapon set => build variety is greatly reduced.

IMO HS spam should be tuned down a bit, but AFAIK, the class is pretty balanced now with the usual DMG vs Stealth/Regen/HP tradeoff.

What is really annoying with the “OMG nerf Thieves” thread is that they forget that all thieves are not samely built/specced :
=> a “troll” build can indeed perma-stealth and be a PITA to kill but will have very little killing power
=> A GC-orientated one can dish out high burst, but have low-HP and will melt quickly even in stealth.

People took 10k from backstab and then see a godmode thief trolling 10people, they come here and say : OMG, thief have huge burst and still have high-HP/mitigation power……..

@Stramatus : if a single thief can kill 3-4 people of the same group and stomp them, sorry to say it but that’s clearly means you have a build/skill/coordination issue.
I can 2v1 sometimes, but often I tend to reset fight because I cannot finish them.

Yggdrasil.7940:

=> a “troll” build can indeed perma-stealth and be a PITA to kill but will have very little killing power

This is completely untrue. I’m running a permastealth build right now and against non tanky targets kills are a simple matter, and when I happen to get outplayed I simply escape. No risk, potential high reward.

In fact, when I run with my guild I’m the one routinely downing players and stomping safely.

Xillllix.3485:

capmasterflash.5690:

False. An ele with decent toughness and skills can hold their own against a thief 1v1.

… Sure some bunker D/D ele can survive a thief, but about 5% of experienced eles can bring one down – and only sometimes. Meanwhile a relatively unexperienced thief can bring down any fully ascended-gear non-bunker ele in 2 seconds.

That same inexperienced thief can easily be brought down by one or two ele aoe skills.
I think your point may have something to do with relative skill floors and caps for both eles and thieves? I haven’t played as ele, but I’ve heard that it has a pretty high skill floor, meanwhile, you’re right that thief has a relatively low skill floor. So there is probably a noobish-mid skill level where thieves outperform eles. Then they both have high skill-caps. And at that high level (that I’m certainly not on-so I could be wrong) I believe eles are superior – hence their relative population in pvp (also stealth doesn’t help a thief as much when trying to cap a point). Personally, as a moderately skilled thief, I’m pretty good at surviving in general, by running away and choosing my battles but in a comitted duel, I tend to lose to eles.

After reading this thread I have come to the conclusion they should buff thieves =D
There are still 1 or 2 builds that can give thieves a hard time.
Fix this!

Stealth not breaking on damage??

How did that even make it past the alpha stage of this game??

Stealth should break on damage, but not grant the revealed status.

Had a “fun” fight today where i outplayed a thief so hard, every other prof would have lost. I launched, kicked, stunned, immobalized and pulled him more then a dozen times and he still could get away each time. No matter how you play if he is half decent he can get away always and if you decide to leave the battle you cant because he can catch up.

Thief is so dominant that it forces every other class to build for it. If i create WvW builds for any of my 4 80s i have to build them against thiefs. The whole spec has to be thiefprooved or its unvailable.
Its just 1 single profession here that forces me to take certain gear and traits.

Jes i like to solo roam in WvW but atm its just not fun because of just 1 single class and no its not the op bm-ranger, not the so popular staff-mesmer and surely not the D/D-ele.

I read the thief complaints up to “but I’m a mesmer” and stopped right there.

I have no problem with the thief profession, and I’ve enjoyed some fantastic duels with some thieves. I can generally counter them pretty well, and can often down them if they stay and fight. When they do get me… they have to work for it.

My problem is with some people who play thieves just to troll. That’s the one issue with the profession. It allows someone to be a pain in the kitten and extremely annoying if that’s what they choose to do. Sure, they aren’t accomplishing anything useful, and the best course is just to ignore them and go on about your business…but those players are the problem, not the profession. They give the profession a bad name. No other profession allows for the ease of trolling that you get with a perma-stealth thief.

I agree with those who posted that if you find it impossible to counter a profession, roll one. Not only will you likely enjoy it, but you’ll learn the profession and suddenly find you have a much easier time fighting thieves, regardless of what profession you’re using. Once you know the tricks to a profession, you’ll see things coming and fights will really slow down for you (be less hectic and more in control, I mean).

Thread after thread on these boards whining about thieves, and all it ever boils down to is, “I don’t like stealth….just because! Nerf it!”

Yes, thieves are annoying and very hard to pin down sometimes, but there’s not a whole lot else to them. Other classes are far more beneficial for most WvW purposes.

IMO, the main problem with thieves is they can endlessly reset a fight until they get the desired outcome.

RAIN.1238:

Not here to whine about thieves or to argue about them; so please read and leave and comments/thoughts/suggestions you think would add to the post.

Just getting tired of thieves with their near perma-stealth, and huge burst damage. It’s almost to the point if I see a thief I just go the other way rather than wasting my time with them. Even if I better them in a fight, they have the stealth AND speed to easily out distance me. I’ve read through a lot of posts about them, and besides conditions and pure tanks, I don’t see much that can handle a well played thief.

I would just like people to look at the balance of the class in WvW. Yes, I know that they have to sacrifice a substantial amount of survivability to have such high burst damage, and that would be perfectly fine, if I could attack them. With the near perma-stealth of a well played thief, it’s nearly impossible to ever get a lock on them long enough to do any substantial damage. Even if I do enough damage to the point of killing them, then they simply stealth and run. It’s pretty hard to keep up with a thief, especially when you can’t see them to know which direction they’re going.

I know aoe’s and conditions deal with thieves pretty well, but I’m a Mesmer; with confusion cut in half and not really any other viable condition builds, its pretty difficult to do much. Regardless of that, anet seems to be so focused on the balance of classes as they continue to buff/debuff skills; but what other class can avoid/take as much damage as a thief, while still being able to put out the enormous burst damage as one.

As far as the argument for my gear being to blame, and I’m just whining because I can’t roll full zerker. I have 2.6k armor, 20.3k hp, and about a 6-8k heal depending on clones. Sure it’s not a face-tank build, but it holds its own. I can survive a burst attack from a thief, but by the third come at me, I’m hard pressed to keep it up. No other class has caused me so much trouble, and I’m pretty confident in any other 1v1 or 1v2 situation, as long as a thief isn’t present.

It just seems to me that Anet is relying on people’s lack of ability to balance the thief class out. As it does take considerable skill to be able to play the style necessary to keep the perma-stealth and keep the damage output peaked.

Please keep comments civil, this is not a post to beg for a thief debuff; I would just like to see other’s thoughts on the class, and possibly help me to better myself against them.

I can’t remember the last time I died to a thief in WvW. I really do not understand the concern here. WvW by nature is a zerg battle. I rarely even see thieves in that area. The current OP classes for WvW are warriors, guards, and eles. Those the ones to watch for.

thief dagger/dagger build is a bit more bearable despite the higher burst vs d/p spec. I think the main issue is the amount of survivability a d/p thief has… I’ve trolled 10+ easily with it but I find d/d to be more skill based because you actually have to hit something (npc animals and clones/pets are excellent for this) to stealth from it. D/P on the other hand you can just stealth all day long without even having to use your utils. I main a mesmer, but after playing thief I can see why they have to be the way they are.

Low health pool and very easily dmg’d by conditions make it hard to fight without stealth.

My recommendation for OP is use staff until you get an opening to burst with sword and shatter. Usually you have to have the right utils to fight a thief and it’s hard to respec on the fly incase you run into them.

oh and the stealth traps will help as well you should give those a shot.

The class needs an overhaul.

It has:

Low build diversity
Limited use outside of a narrow role (PvP Roaming)
A playstyle that only functions at the expense of everyone else’s fun
Depends on a core mechanic that has no counter

I’m not saying “OMG Nerf Thief!” I’m saying “Make Thief a Versatile, Fun Class.”

And by “Fun,” I mean fun for everyone and not just the Thief. In PvP, if I get my tail beat by most classes (e.g. a Ranger) I can think, “Wow, that guy’s a great player” or “Holy cow, how’d he get so much cleansing in his build?” Those are rewarding experiences, even if I lose! With a Thief I can’t really do that, mostly because I can’t see them for much of the fight and can’t keep them targeted long enough to get any information about boons/food/sigils. I can’t develop any respect for their skill or build because I usually have only a sketchy idea of what’s going on in most Thief fights. I might get a glimpse of what weapons they’re running, but that’s about it.

And, to the OP, if you want more info on how to fight Thieves in WvW you should go to sPvP and tPvP. Spectate on matches with Thieves in them, check out their builds, and watch how the good ones play. Until I did this, I assumed all Thief players were simply abusing stealth and that the class was totally OP. Now that is not the case. With spectator mode I can observe their gameplay, whereas in WvW it’s invisible. There are some very talented Thief players out there (and lots of bads). The class isn’t OP. It’s actually poorly designed in a few key areas, and needs some work to make it an fun addition to the game in general, instead of just a tool to troll or gank people.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone realize that thieves can be insanely strong in support roles in 20v20 sized fights?

If 95% of thieves play d/p or d/d roaming builds, does that mean there isn’t enough build diversity, or does it simply mean there is a lack of creativity in thief players? I’ve had a lot of fun in WvW as a thief, never playing a common build. That doesn’t make me special, but before you jump to conclusions about build diversity, be a little creative and try a new style.

PinCushion.7390:

The class needs an overhaul.

It has:

Low build diversity
Limited use outside of a narrow role (PvP Roaming)
A playstyle that only functions at the expense of everyone else’s fun
Depends on a core mechanic that has no counter

I’m not saying “OMG Nerf Thief!” I’m saying “Make Thief a Versatile, Fun Class.”

And by “Fun,” I mean fun for everyone and not just the Thief. In PvP, if I get my tail beat by most classes (e.g. a Ranger) I can think, “Wow, that guy’s a great player” or “Holy cow, how’d he get so much cleansing in his build?” Those are rewarding experiences, even if I lose! With a Thief I can’t really do that, mostly because I can’t see them for much of the fight and can’t keep them targeted long enough to get any information about boons/food/sigils. I can’t develop any respect for their skill or build because I usually have only a sketchy idea of what’s going on in most Thief fights. I might get a glimpse of what weapons they’re running, but that’s about it.

And, to the OP, if you want more info on how to fight Thieves in WvW you should go to sPvP and tPvP. Spectate on matches with Thieves in them, check out their builds, and watch how the good ones play. Until I did this, I assumed all Thief players were simply abusing stealth and that the class was totally OP. Now that is not the case. With spectator mode I can observe their gameplay, whereas in WvW it’s invisible. There are some very talented Thief players out there (and lots of bads). The class isn’t OP. It’s actually poorly designed in a few key areas, and needs some work to make it an fun addition to the game in general, instead of just a tool to troll or gank people.

This is an extremely well written post and explains what the actual problem is and unfortunately with the core mechanic being part of the real problem and having no counter, I doubt aNet will ever be able to balance it unless they give players viable options to counter stealth.

My thief is only level 45, there are limited builds, but honestly if I’m bored and just want to annoy people in WvW, I go out with my C/D + Pistol condition thief and can kill any level 80 player, just by using a few abilities, a little bit of timing and some basic knowledge of dodging. It’s a very boring playstyle to be honest, but extremely effective. I’ve been able to 2v1 full level 80’s (80 warrior and 80 guardian just the other day) purely by using stealth + shadowstep. If I ever find myself in a situation where I might lose, I simply use stealth to get away or just shadow refuge to get some health back and keep going at them. Something has to tell you a profession is wrong when you can take on full 80’s when your not even levelled nor geared yourself.

Players need to be able to either a) Track thieves in stealth by using some sort of debuff that makes them slightly more visible or b) Be able to debuff a thief so he cannot stealth for 10 seconds.

DrWhom.3105:

Honestly the numbers speak for themselves, and anyone who does a significant amount of WvW has seen it. Roaming is almost the “fight thieves” mode of the game at this point. Which exacerbates the problem even further.

Fighting a thief 1v1 isn’t that horrific if you know their mechanics (play one, if only to learn), yes they can reset but most give up if you brush them off 2/3 times and many will get greedy and die. But many players who could handle a 1v2 against other classes will get wrecked by a pair of even somewhat competent thieves.

If the cause were all other Thief builds sucking, their population wouldn’t have ballooned like this. Don’t get me wrong, they need more build diversity (like a lot of classes) but stealth is out of control at this point. Bring back 4s revealed at least, that should thin their numbers a bit.

Oh and make it so that if you hit someone with the Heartseeker through Black Powder the stealth fails with revealed.

Why do people feel they’re entitled to win 1v2s?

Honestly, if 2 thieves can’t kill 1 player they need to l2p. You should not be able to win against 2 assassin type characters.

Literally, I am becoming physically sick by roaming thieves. After all these months of being instagibbed on my staff Ele, I really want to punch a dev every time I die from one. It’s like a Pavlovian response now. Because we all know, if a Thief stealth’s in behind a staff Ele, we’re dead on the spot. Backstab, Heartseeker, Heartseeker, and there’s all my HP gone in 2 seconds. Dodging is only a delay. Mist form, without any ability to use skills, is only a delay. Heck, I’ve been vital shot down, pew pew pew pew, unable to escape or win with staff.

All this is why the dev’s really need an ear full, all day long. Players have been posting thread after thread since launch about this profession. Which seems to be purpose built to grieve. Sadder is when a Dev has in his WvW video that he runs havok with 2 Thieves and 2 Mesmers. Doubling down on the two most annoying classes in the game.

Still, I have a lot fun in WvW. But, this designed in instagibbing and grieving makes it highly frustrating and sucks the life out of it.

Thief restealthing in GW2 is one of the more abusive abilities I have played in an mmo.

It is one of the better defensive classes in the game. It can get a lil glitchy at times, but man when you are on with a thief, you can roll groups of people. And as much as I love my thief, that should never happen.

What I don’t understand is the need for newer mmos to try and remove permanent stealth from the game and add in something like restealthing on a short timer. You get crap classes like the ones in Rift and WAR or you get abusive stuff like the Thief in GW2. When I say abusive, I don’t mean overpowered. I mean everything stealth gives you. Damage mitigation, to initiative in the fight (meaning you will always strike first) to escaping the fight.

I love my thief. A permanent stealth rebuild would serve wvw better and make those crappy destealth traps worth laying. What a load of crap those things are.

ps – My thought process was very segmented in this post as I wrote it between customers at work over the course of an hour.

My guard rotflstomps thieves… so does my eng… and my mesmer. They aren’t built to specifically take on thieves. They do have ways to deal with CC and burst damage though (hardly thief specific). It’s very much a learn to play issue.

Excalibur.9748:

DrWhom.3105:

Honestly the numbers speak for themselves, and anyone who does a significant amount of WvW has seen it. Roaming is almost the “fight thieves” mode of the game at this point. Which exacerbates the problem even further.

Fighting a thief 1v1 isn’t that horrific if you know their mechanics (play one, if only to learn), yes they can reset but most give up if you brush them off 2/3 times and many will get greedy and die. But many players who could handle a 1v2 against other classes will get wrecked by a pair of even somewhat competent thieves.

If the cause were all other Thief builds sucking, their population wouldn’t have ballooned like this. Don’t get me wrong, they need more build diversity (like a lot of classes) but stealth is out of control at this point. Bring back 4s revealed at least, that should thin their numbers a bit.

Oh and make it so that if you hit someone with the Heartseeker through Black Powder the stealth fails with revealed.

Why do people feel they’re entitled to win 1v2s?

Honestly, if 2 thieves can’t kill 1 player they need to l2p. You should not be able to win against 2 assassin type characters.

And why should you not be able to win vs 2 enemies,no matter the class ? That would be nonsense.Also never seen thiefs doing the same vs other people? Why would any class except thiefs be unable to do this ?

I have rolled a theif.

Unfortunately its only level 22.

Anyways, most thieves are free loot bags, but every now and then you get one that’s a real kitten. Steal > heartseeker > heartseeker and my ele loses 17k health, that’s really quite annoying. Sure I can dodge or use a cantrip but normally it only delays the inevitable.

DeWolfe.2174:

Literally, I am becoming physically sick by roaming thieves. After all these months of being instagibbed on my staff Ele, I really want to punch a dev every time I die from one. It’s like a Pavlovian response now. Because we all know, if a Thief stealth’s in behind a staff Ele, we’re dead on the spot. Backstab, Heartseeker, Heartseeker, and there’s all my HP gone in 2 seconds. Dodging is only a delay. Mist form, without any ability to use skills, is only a delay. Heck, I’ve been vital shot down, pew pew pew pew, unable to escape or win with staff.

All this is why the dev’s really need an ear full, all day long. Players have been posting thread after thread since launch about this profession. Which seems to be purpose built to grieve. Sadder is when a Dev has in his WvW video that he runs havok with 2 Thieves and 2 Mesmers. Doubling down on the two most annoying classes in the game.

Still, I have a lot fun in WvW. But, this designed in instagibbing and grieving makes it highly frustrating and sucks the life out of it.

Buy real gear then. Because that must do like 12k dmg at most with 100% crit and good power (aka full zerker thief).
If you’re also running full zerker, don’t complain about dying. Same if you have 0 armor.

Caedmon.6798:

And why should you not be able to win vs 2 enemies,no matter the class ? That would be nonsense.Also never seen thiefs doing the same vs other people? Why would any class except thiefs be unable to do this ?

Because that’s 2 against 1. If they know how to play and are both 80, you should stand no chance. Of course when they’re noobs or underleveled it’s another matter but i don’t see why you should be able to win vs 2 enemies at same gear level, same level and same skill level.
This is insane.

Myst.5783:

I have rolled a theif.

Unfortunately its only level 22.

Anyways, most thieves are free loot bags, but every now and then you get one that’s a real kitten. Steal > heartseeker > heartseeker and my ele loses 17k health, that’s really quite annoying. Sure I can dodge or use a cantrip but normally it only delays the inevitable.

Please tell me how a steal and 2 heartseekers do 17k damage without your hp already being low. I would love to know.

Babayum.9204:

Coming from a mesmer this is quite laughable. Spec phantasm get 3 zerkers out, thiefs eats burst as soon as he leaves stealth from 3 zerkers everytime. If he keeps CnDing ur zerkers down just recast, thief wont be damaging you if he decides to kill ur phantasms

3 zerkers?erm… im not phantasm mesmer at all, but zerkers have a long enough cd for your thief to backstab him within seconds as most of the phantasm mesmers are glasscannons.

A good player can beat any other player. Thieves are easily predictable, just roll one and find out. The burst damage from D/D thieves is probably higher than it should be in some cases but you also should’t be running around WvW with low toughness/vitality either. Just do like all the less talented players do and spam your AoEs like your spreading a wild fire