Guild Wars 2

I’m amazed that nothing has been done about the ratings system for tier 8 yet. The math is fundamentally broken for the following reasons:

1. rating points within each tier are almost entirely a zero-sum game
2. the farther above the tier average a team gets, the harder it is to take even more points from the other teams
3. the delta between tier 7 and tier 8 is over 50% higher than any of the other tier gaps

All of these things together make tier 8 essentially a black hole, that is impossible to escape without ridiculous victories week after week after week. It probably didn’t start out that way, but the tier averages have shifted around since launch as a result of teams moving up & down, and this is what we’re left with today. Take a look at the current scores for tier 8:

http://mos.millenium.org/matchups#NA

As of this writing, SF has more points than the other two teams combined, and yet is on track to lose 50+ rating points this week because they aren’t beating ET and FC hard enough.

To further illustrate, take a look at last week’s average rating for each tier, along with the delta to the next higher tier:

tier average delta
1 2170.63 —
2 1966.56 204.08
3 1789.33 177.23
4 1622.01 167.32
5 1401.75 220.25
6 1233.47 168.29
7 1062.41 171.06
8 730.90 331.50

The gap from 8 to 7 is over 50% higher than any of the other gaps.

Based on this analysis, and on personal experience, I’m really disappointed in the recent server transfer policy as well. In addition to doing nothing to solve the fundamental math problem, the allowance of transfers into tier 7 has damaged the population balance there as well (in what was previously the most balanced tier.)

Fixing tier 8 would have taken exactly two steps:

1. Normalize ET and FC upward by ~165+ points each, to improve the tier 8 average to 840+. I know this is unprecedented, but if you want to keep the current rating formulas, that’s pretty much the only way to make it reasonable to move between 7 and 8 (without 8 being the kiss of death.) This is the difference between theory and practice: the ratings system is fine in theory, but in practice it leaves the gaps between tiers entirely to chance, which has resulted in the 3rd tier 8 team being unfairly punished. The correct response is to fix the problem, and move on. (Bonus points if you can invent a method to keep the gaps between tier averages permanently normalized, going forward.) This is a “learning experience”.
2. Allow free server transfers to ET and FC only. The current policy could even make things worse for tier 8, before all is done. Considering that the transfer policy does nothing to fix the tier 8 math problem, if I were down there it would be entirely rational to escape from 8 to 7 if given a chance like this.

If any tier 8’ers are taking the jump to 7, flip a coin and come to NSP or GOM — HOD already got a ton of folks, and I’d love to see some balance come back into 7 again.

Can’t transfer to ET or FC anymore by the way they are now high population servers after a bunch of tier 1 and tier 2 guilds came down to try to pull another kaining. And as if it doesn’t show that SF really needs to be moved up we’re still winning by double the next person’s score granted we were winning by double both other teams combined before. Although the tier is more interesting and fun for SF with the transfers, It’s still a 1 sided fight 85% of the time. It does really need to be fixed when you have people from T1/T2 saying you’re at worst a tier 5 server yet you’re stuck on tier 8.

SF had about *DOUBLE* ET and FC’s combined scores for like 2 weeks straight. this comes on the tail of 2 months of ROFLstomping... if that isn’t an indication something is wrong, i don’t know what is... however, there has been a post recently indicating that Anet is looking into fixing and adjusting the issue... somehow. woot.

and as for your #2. transfers will NOT fix the problem... they created the problem in the first place

Nice to hear that you got some new folks down there. It wouldn’t surprise me at all to see SF rocket up through the ranks if they break out. It’s just ridiculous that they have to work that hard, though, without getting any tier increases to show for it.

indeed. kinda crazy. we’ve all been saying that for a couple months now

katz.8376:

#2. transfers will NOT fix the problem… they created the problem in the first place

This is true but you did just get at least 2 T1 guilds in ET as well as several others did you not?

on SF we don’t mind the transfers though it’s understandable why ET and FC have such a bad taste for it after kaining starting the whole problem by stomping and setting the ranking so low for you guys. Here on sorrow’s furnace we aren’t willing to let some tier 1/2 guilds stop our party train it’s just a speed bump.

If you were a cynic (and I am!!!!!) and suspicious (I am not) consider the following hypothesis. . . .

Just as SF was on the cusp of beating the system (as opposed to beating actual opponents) the “man” opened up free transfers to ensure that SF remains in the ghetto.

Seems that we can not learn from the recent past. Free xfer broke the system. Free xfer doesn’t fix anything. SF appears to be the most despised server.

There is no fixing tier 8 without fixing the rating system. The key is that the point gaps between tiers are left up to chance, and not rebalanced each week as part of the new ordering.

If they had fixed that alone, then SF would have risen up in the next week, and we’d find out pretty quickly against their new opponent(s) whether ET and FC really need the population help or not (though I suspect yes). Anyway, to clarify my point #2 above, if I were doing it, I would have implemented the rating fix first and then waited a couple or three weeks to see if population transfers to ET and FC were needed as well.

It really doesn’t help anything to open up the population transfers without fixing the fundamental issue first. You have the exact same math problem as before, and now a few new problems as well. (I.E. SF will have even more trouble escaping 8 now, and tier 7 which was fine before is now imbalanced as well.)

Sadistis.4257:

katz.8376:

#2. transfers will NOT fix the problem… they created the problem in the first place

This is true but you did just get at least 2 T1 guilds in ET as well as several others did you not?

on SF we don’t mind the transfers though it’s understandable why ET and FC have such a bad taste for it after kaining starting the whole problem by stomping and setting the ranking so low for you guys. Here on sorrow’s furnace we aren’t willing to let some tier 1/2 guilds stop our party train it’s just a speed bump.

you misunderstand me, i think. i hold no ill will toward SF. they’re stuck here as surely as we are, by the PREVIOUS free transfers trashing the system and artificially jacking the numbers far out of alignment. i’m glad we got some more people… it evens out the fights a bit and makes it actual fun instead of just a ROFLstomp… BUT… just throwing more free transfers at the problem does not fix it.

SF has been in T8 for 12 weeks straight now (3 months, a solid quarter of the year) and has dominated for 10 weeks straight. As of last Friday, SF has won by 75K to 296K margins (with an average of 206K and a median of 225K) each match for the 10 weeks of domination. However, this isn’t “adequate” enough to Glicko for SF to progress from T8 to T7 (yet other tiers aren’t held to such standards). We lost -52 rating on March 1st for "underperforming, even though we won by a 126K margin. This week, a similar rating decrease is projected to occur for this week’s match because we’re “underperforming” again (even though we’re doubling the second place score).

The free server transfers hasn’t fixed anything, just prolonged our stay in T8 for who knows how much longer. Now, I DO think free server transfers are something that does need to happen to help populate the underpopulated servers. Because let’s be honest, FC and ET do need more WvWers so they can be competitive with whoever they are facing in T8. But that fix should have come at the same time as a fix to the rating system. Doing it before a rating fix just screws things up even more.

Now, we do know that it’s been officially been confirmed that ANet IS looking at the WvW server rating issue. Hopefully a fix comes soon. It’s starting to feel too little too late. :-/

Not to be rude or anything, but, this has all be talked about before. Did we really need yet another topic?

Manoa.5897:

Now, we do know that it’s been officially been confirmed that ANet IS looking at the WvW server rating issue. Hopefully a fix comes soon. It’s starting to feel too little too late. :-/

I had never heard of the Glicko-2 system when I first started playing WvW, so I looked it up on WikiPedia and also read the description of ANet’s particular implementation of it on the GW2 official forum. It was immediately apparent to me that this wasn’t going to work and I and others have been posting about the inherent flaws for months now. The Glicko-2 system was never intended to be used in a tiered environment because of the isolation it breeds and it certainly isn’t valid to pretend that red-vs-blue, red-vs-green, and blue-vs-green are all independent matches as ANet does.

If those of us who aren’t statisticians or mathematicians were able to see this coming months ago after just a few minutes of thought it’s truly disappointing that ANet could not. Even now all we have from them is an indication that they are “looking into it”.

All that being said, ANY ranking system isn’t going to fix the fundamental problem of unbalanced matches. Server populations don’t equate to WvW populations, and server populations certainly don’t indicate 24/7 coverage. I personally do not see how server-based matches will ever give the kind of balanced game play we all want, and I think the entire system is going to have to change to some sort of instanced matchup. Just my opinion …

It is unfortunate but brutally obvious that Arena Net has all but abandoned T8 or they would’ve fixed things months ago.

If you are a guild that wants a shot at real hardcore WvW on a server with a strong commander community try Blackgate.

Don’t believe the poo you hear about T1 servers using hacks because its not true. We are just very competitive and when exploits are caught the person is working alone.

Contact me about moving your guild to T1 for a server wideWvW community with frequent communication between guilds and commanders.

We can also see about minimizing cost.

Bedstain.6735:

It is unfortunate but brutally obvious that Arena Net has all but abandoned T8 or they would’ve fixed things months ago.

If you are a guild that wants a shot at real hardcore WvW on a server with a strong commander community try Blackgate.

Don’t believe the poo you hear about T1 servers using hacks because its not true. We are just very competitive and when exploits are caught the person is working alone.

Contact me about moving your guild to T1 for a server wideWvW community with frequent communication between guilds and commanders.

We can also see about minimizing cost.

It’s interesting how most people who moved out actually were at Blackgate…

No thank you… I don’t want to have to be a puppet on the big “hardcore WvW” guilds master plan and I’m sure many down here share the same.

Super easy fix ANet, almost no changes are needed to the scoring system using the following:

Separate the server ranking list, from the match line-up list. Done. I’ll explain:

The list of servers rank by glicko score will not change. This will still be the ordered list of 1st to last place.
The list of server match-ups though would now be determined by winner move up loser move down. This will keep match-ups from going stale and tiers becoming out of scale with each other. This means that the list of current match-ups will be close, but not equal to the list of server ranking in order.

NO NO NO! Don’t come with WULO! that will keep some servers stuck on a cycle where you roflstomp a week and get roflstomped on the next. Without a chance of ever changing your rank.

Jeknar.6184:

Bedstain.6735:

It is unfortunate but brutally obvious that Arena Net has all but abandoned T8 or they would’ve fixed things months ago.

If you are a guild that wants a shot at real hardcore WvW on a server with a strong commander community try Blackgate.

Don’t believe the poo you hear about T1 servers using hacks because its not true. We are just very competitive and when exploits are caught the person is working alone.

Contact me about moving your guild to T1 for a server wideWvW community with frequent communication between guilds and commanders.

We can also see about minimizing cost.

It’s interesting how most people who moved out actually were at Blackgate…

No thank you… I don’t want to have to be a puppet on the big “hardcore WvW” guilds master plan and I’m sure many down here share the same.

At least I offer a solution. I give an opportunity and get slapped in the face.

I guess it’s easier to whine on forums than to be proactive and move.

If we thought moving was a solution we would have moved to HoD (like many did).

Manoa.5897:

SF has been in T8 for 12 weeks straight now (3 months, a solid quarter of the year) and has dominated for 10 weeks straight. As of last Friday, SF has won by 75K to 296K margins (with an average of 206K and a median of 225K) each match for the 10 weeks of domination. However, this isn’t “adequate” enough to Glicko for SF to progress from T8 to T7 (yet other servers in other tiers aren’t held to such standards).

Win harder. Since there’s been a bit of Kaineng bashing going on here, let’s go ahead and look at Kaineng’s departure from T8 – to break out of T8, we needed multiple 500k weeks. SF is barely breaking 300k, and that’s not even a given. Although that would definitely qualify for a blowout, it’s not enough to get out of T8. Especially now.

Then roll around in the void that is t8.

Personally, the people on SF who wanted out of T8, should have taken the chance to jump to HoD or some other T7 server when the door was opened for you.

Jeknar.6184:

NO NO NO! Don’t come with WULO! that will keep some servers stuck on a cycle where you roflstomp a week and get roflstomped on the next. Without a chance of ever changing your rank.

But glicko would still dictate your server ranking, so this allows you to improve or lose server ranking. Without WULD, you get stuck in tier lock, where the scores within the tier you are in become further and further out of tough with other tiers, since no server ever got bumped up to sow how bad they would get stomped by the tier above.
Think about our tier, tier 8. This system would let SF play 2 servers in T7 above them and find out if we really belong where we are, or if we were stuck in a tier lock in T8. This would keep the tiers in the same score scale, as opposed to now where any tier that repeats the same match-up more than a couple times, will become out of sync with the scores from the other tiers.
Right now, if ET and FC got enough transfers to become mega powers, and SF stepped up to the same skill level, we would all 3 be good enough to move up multiple tiers, but since we are only compared to each other, we would still be stuck in T8, because with a tiered environment, glicko causes tier lock by only comparing your performance to the servers in the same tier as you.

Ungood.3054:

Personally, the people on SF who wanted out of T8, should have taken the chance to jump to HoD or some other T7 server when the door was opened for you.

Why should we have to leave our home? I’ve been on SF since head start.
Let’s solve the issue, not work around it with server transfers (which caused the issue in the first place… well that and glicko in a tiered environment).

Honestly- FC and ET just need more players, there needs to be incentive to transfer to them.
Also if you want to look at an even worse matchup- look at T9 EU :P

Yes Tier 9 EU is worse than Tier 8 NA but somehow they manage to move between T8 and T9 all the time.

My first thought for this was to keep a rating system, but normalize the scores every week to keep a fixed difference in the average score between all adjacent tiers. That would get rid of the chance element which results in semi-random gap distribution for the middle ranks, and bad artifacts on the low end that allow tier 8 to fall 330 average below tier 7.

However, if they wanted to go for a simpler solution, I’d still prefer winner up, loser down to what we have today. Every team in the middle 20 would see 2 new opponents every week, and the ratings would be completely irrelevant. Perhaps they would live on as a means of seeding green/blue/red within each tier, but they wouldn’t have any affect on gameplay. I think it’d be interesting to see more mobility in the matchups.

Bedstain.6735:

It is unfortunate but brutally obvious that Arena Net has all but abandoned T8 or they would’ve fixed things months ago.

If you are a guild that wants a shot at real hardcore WvW on a server with a strong commander community try Blackgate.

Don’t believe the poo you hear about T1 servers using hacks because its not true. We are just very competitive and when exploits are caught the person is working alone.

Contact me about moving your guild to T1 for a server wideWvW community with frequent communication between guilds and commanders.

We can also see about minimizing cost.

If you are actually serious about Blackgate, you would be better off contacting me. In all seriousness, though, people should be moving down the ranks to balance some of the middle tiers where things aren’t as competitive as they should be.

Jeknar.6184:

It’s interesting how most people who moved out actually were at Blackgate…

No thank you… I don’t want to have to be a puppet on the big “hardcore WvW” guilds master plan and I’m sure many down here share the same.

2 Guilds with a combined number of maybe 50 if they are lucky. They did what was in the best interest of their individual gaming communities, and I respect them for it.

Dhampyr.2104:

Manoa.5897:

SF has been in T8 for 12 weeks straight now (3 months, a solid quarter of the year) and has dominated for 10 weeks straight. As of last Friday, SF has won by 75K to 296K margins (with an average of 206K and a median of 225K) each match for the 10 weeks of domination. However, this isn’t “adequate” enough to Glicko for SF to progress from T8 to T7 (yet other servers in other tiers aren’t held to such standards).

Win harder. Since there’s been a bit of Kaineng bashing going on here, let’s go ahead and look at Kaineng’s departure from T8 – to break out of T8, we needed multiple 500k weeks. SF is barely breaking 300k, and that’s not even a given. Although that would definitely qualify for a blowout, it’s not enough to get out of T8. Especially now.

I should have posted “yet other tiers aren’t held to such standards.” Yes, other servers have been held to high standards. And those servers who were held to such standards were those who were stuck in T8 for way too long as well.

Sadly, SF never got nearly the number of transfers that Kain did to make breaking out of T8 a reality for us. But my argument stands…no server should have to roflstomp by such ridiculous margins for so long just to break out of their tier. Whether DR, Kain or SF. Or anyone unfortunate to drop into the tier in the future (if we’re ever actually able to break out).

Jeknar.6184:

Bedstain.6735:

It is unfortunate but brutally obvious that Arena Net has all but abandoned T8 or they would’ve fixed things months ago.

If you are a guild that wants a shot at real hardcore WvW on a server with a strong commander community try Blackgate.

Don’t believe the poo you hear about T1 servers using hacks because its not true. We are just very competitive and when exploits are caught the person is working alone.

Contact me about moving your guild to T1 for a server wideWvW community with frequent communication between guilds and commanders.

We can also see about minimizing cost.

It’s interesting how most people who moved out actually were at Blackgate…

No thank you… I don’t want to have to be a puppet on the big “hardcore WvW” guilds master plan and I’m sure many down here share the same.

I would like to add here that the transfers out of blackgate in no way should reflect bad on the server. The transfers were due to the state of the top tiers and how we felt our play style fit there. We still have the utmost respect for BG and I would personally recommend anyone looking for a top tier server to check them out first.

Ungood.3054:

Personally, the people on SF who wanted out of T8, should have taken the chance to jump to HoD or some other T7 server when the door was opened for you.

No. SF has been my home since BWE1. And server transfers doesn’t do anything to actually solve the rating issue. It just further compounds it.

D W.5179:

Super easy fix ANet, almost no changes are needed to the scoring system using the following:

Separate the server ranking list, from the match line-up list. Done. I’ll explain:

The list of servers rank by glicko score will not change. This will still be the ordered list of 1st to last place.
The list of server match-ups though would now be determined by winner move up loser move down. This will keep match-ups from going stale and tiers becoming out of scale with each other. This means that the list of current match-ups will be close, but not equal to the list of server ranking in order.

That’s a really dumb idea as dozens of players have pointed out in other threads. It just makes blowouts happen more often.

Cactus.2710:

D W.5179:

Super easy fix ANet, almost no changes are needed to the scoring system using the following:

Separate the server ranking list, from the match line-up list. Done. I’ll explain:

The list of servers rank by glicko score will not change. This will still be the ordered list of 1st to last place.
The list of server match-ups though would now be determined by winner move up loser move down. This will keep match-ups from going stale and tiers becoming out of scale with each other. This means that the list of current match-ups will be close, but not equal to the list of server ranking in order.

That’s a really dumb idea as dozens of players have pointed out in other threads. It just makes blowouts happen more often.

I’d prefer to have a blowout every other week rather than every single week.
I understand why you call it “dumb”, but I think it’s a better alternative than the current.
There are plenty of examples and scenarios that show why glicko fails in a tiered environment. This options mixes the tiers more often (more blowouts, you’re correct), and the reason for this would be to keep the tiers in the same score scale with other tiers. I don’t expect everybody to understand and/or agree with this, I just think it’s better than what we currently have. I’d love to hear a solution that is the best of both worlds; minimal blowouts, but tiers don’t get off scale with each other in regards to glicko score.

Math we dont need no stinking math.

bonus points hell yeah

put a hard cap/floor on rating
do a soft reset when a 200+ rating point gap appears between 2 servers

we dont care about a servers rating. we care about what place were in, we care about what color we are. neither will change with either of these ideas. therefore manipulating the ratings can be used to our advantage to prevent tier locking and continuously bad pairings.

Theres another way to fix it but ANET will not do whats needed no company likes to admit their product just isn’t as popular as they’d hope for closing stores in this case servers just begs for negative press but lets face it why even have servers competing in something they obviously cant compete in tiers 6,7,8 should just be closed down.

D W.5179:

Cactus.2710:

D W.5179:

Super easy fix ANet, almost no changes are needed to the scoring system using the following:

Separate the server ranking list, from the match line-up list. Done. I’ll explain:

The list of servers rank by glicko score will not change. This will still be the ordered list of 1st to last place.
The list of server match-ups though would now be determined by winner move up loser move down. This will keep match-ups from going stale and tiers becoming out of scale with each other. This means that the list of current match-ups will be close, but not equal to the list of server ranking in order.

That’s a really dumb idea as dozens of players have pointed out in other threads. It just makes blowouts happen more often.

I’d prefer to have a blowout every other week rather than every single week.
I understand why you call it “dumb”, but I think it’s a better alternative than the current.
There are plenty of examples and scenarios that show why glicko fails in a tiered environment. This options mixes the tiers more often (more blowouts, you’re correct), and the reason for this would be to keep the tiers in the same score scale with other tiers. I don’t expect everybody to understand and/or agree with this, I just think it’s better than what we currently have. I’d love to hear a solution that is the best of both worlds; minimal blowouts, but tiers don’t get off scale with each other in regards to glicko score.

You will have at least as many blowouts, not fewer, but you are correct that WULD helps break tier locking.

The real problem is that it will be impossible to make WvW matches that are both balanced and fresh under the current server vs server vs server format. It simply cannot be done. ANet can’t control server populations and WvW population doesn’t track server population anyway … and it certainly doesn’t around the clock. We’re going to keep arguing and complaining about WvW matches until either ANet gets a clue and changes the match format to some sort of instanced system … or until we all get so tired of it we just leave.

Cactus.2710:

D W.5179:

Super easy fix ANet, almost no changes are needed to the scoring system using the following:

Separate the server ranking list, from the match line-up list. Done. I’ll explain:

The list of servers rank by glicko score will not change. This will still be the ordered list of 1st to last place.
The list of server match-ups though would now be determined by winner move up loser move down. This will keep match-ups from going stale and tiers becoming out of scale with each other. This means that the list of current match-ups will be close, but not equal to the list of server ranking in order.

That’s a really dumb idea as dozens of players have pointed out in other threads. It just makes blowouts happen more often.

as pointed out in other threads, this is not true. The WvW system is not capable of balanced matches. Nearly every match is a blowout. WULD won’t change that.

I hope arenanet doesnt’ share your misguided view as someone on a server who’s only won maybe 2 games in 3 or 4 months I would love to go down a tier now and then and win a game here and there. I like winning sometimes.

Pretty simple fix, just make a winner moves up rule for Tier 8. The other tiers seem fine.

fivekiller.1432:

as pointed out in other threads, this is not true. The WvW system is not capable of balanced matches. Nearly every match is a blowout.

According to the current Europe WvW scores, every tier but T9 is well-balanced, many tiers even perfectly so. So your “other threads” appear to be talking nonsense, as do you.

If you look at the current t8 score, the first place server is losing points. That seems completely unfair for them. Let these poor kittens escape to the next tier.

Would like to point out that the xfers actually screwed you guys. You were on your way up to T7 slowly but you were and after the transfers you are currently on your way back down separating the gap. All you can do now is really cheer for the people you wanted everyone to push down for you, HoD. And hope we just target one server so they begin to drop significantly. Ahhhh karma got to love it.

Furiousbeard.7602:

If you look at the current t8 score, the first place server is losing points. That seems completely unfair for them. Let these poor kittens escape to the next tier.

This isn’t the first time we’ve lost rating while still winning by a landslide.

Devon.9061:

Would like to point out that the xfers actually screwed you guys. You were on your way up to T7 slowly but you were and after the transfers you are currently on your way back down separating the gap. All you can do now is really cheer for the people you wanted everyone to push down for you, HoD. And hope we just target one server so they begin to drop significantly. Ahhhh karma got to love it.

Haha, indeed, and it’s looking like the new hopeful victim is GoM.

D W.5179:

Devon.9061:

Would like to point out that the xfers actually screwed you guys. You were on your way up to T7 slowly but you were and after the transfers you are currently on your way back down separating the gap. All you can do now is really cheer for the people you wanted everyone to push down for you, HoD. And hope we just target one server so they begin to drop significantly. Ahhhh karma got to love it.

Haha, indeed, and it’s looking like the new hopeful victim is GoM.

Sad that our only chance to escape this tier is to wait for another server to stumble and drop into the tier. Absolutely ridiculous that the rating system is so broken that we can’t escape on our own steam.

Devon.9061:

Would like to point out that the xfers actually screwed you guys. You were on your way up to T7 slowly but you were and after the transfers you are currently on your way back down separating the gap. All you can do now is really cheer for the people you wanted everyone to push down for you, HoD. And hope we just target one server so they begin to drop significantly. Ahhhh karma got to love it.

It doesn’t really matter… Now that the balance is broken, HoD will send someone down eventually, want you or not… No need for “cheers”. Everything will happen naturally…

fivekiller.1432:

Cactus.2710:

D W.5179:

Super easy fix ANet, almost no changes are needed to the scoring system using the following:

Separate the server ranking list, from the match line-up list. Done. I’ll explain:

The list of servers rank by glicko score will not change. This will still be the ordered list of 1st to last place.
The list of server match-ups though would now be determined by winner move up loser move down. This will keep match-ups from going stale and tiers becoming out of scale with each other. This means that the list of current match-ups will be close, but not equal to the list of server ranking in order.

That’s a really dumb idea as dozens of players have pointed out in other threads. It just makes blowouts happen more often.

as pointed out in other threads, this is not true. The WvW system is not capable of balanced matches. Nearly every match is a blowout. WULD won’t change that.

I hope arenanet doesnt’ share your misguided view as someone on a server who’s only won maybe 2 games in 3 or 4 months I would love to go down a tier now and then and win a game here and there. I like winning sometimes.

I never said that WvW is capable of even matches, with or without WULD. If you read my post just above yours you’ll see that I said exactly the opposite.

It is true, however, that WULD would generate even more blowouts. If all the servers in Tier A are evenly matched and all of those in Tier B are as well, all six servers enjoy a reasonably equitable match. WULD means that the following week four out of the six servers are likely to experience a blowout. The server that got bumped up to Tier A likely loses big, the server that got bumped down likely wins big, and the other two servers in Tier B likely lose big. This scenario is GUARANTEED to play out like that any time there are significant differences in populations from one tier to another … in other words, pretty often.

At least in my “misguided view” I can understand that four is more than zero.

I would almost prefer that they did a mash up once in a while in order to cause chaos. Wipe all scoreboards!!

There would be some incredible blow outs, and some extremely close matches, but at least there would be some variation.

More likely HoD is going to move up and pull someone into T7 (Looking Like DR atm). Unless the world ends, T8 is staying as is.

airstu.2579:

More likely HoD is going to move up and pull someone into T7 (Looking Like DR atm). Unless the world ends, T8 is staying as is.

If HoD swaps with DR, before SF can swap with GoM, then it’s likely the new T7 will have DR tossing GoM down to T8 quickly.
I see light at the end of the tunnel [sarcasm]unless for some reason it is decided that free transfers will solve the problem that free transfers to fix free transfers has caused… hmm, I think the only way to solve this issue is more free transfers.[/sarcasm]

Or DR will continue their amazing journey to T8 and back. That in itself will be worth the price of popcorn.