Guild Wars 2

Handin.4032:

lLobo.7960:

Before nerf one or two mesmers could take down a zerg…
Now you can take the zerg halfway down and leave the other half for a hammer warrior (boon hate + SoM) to have fun too…

There you go, everyone can help, everyone gets bags… much more fun…

If one mesmer could actually kill an entire zerg…you have an issue. Most of the damage I get from my glamour fields are actually from the feedback reflects. I, as a single mesmer, can only stack high confusion on a single target basis. It is quite funny when I throw a feedback on a stacked zerg, and they stand there shooting while in the feedback!

Now, I agree that confusion needed a slight nerf, and people, they didn’t reduce the TOTAL damage by 50%, they just nerfed the efficiency. 15 stacks of confusion can still deal ~3k per tick. The issue in my mind is that it doesn’t act like all the other conditions when it comes to scaling, damage, duration, etc, and yet they try to balance it against the other conditions.

Not any single Mesmer can, but throw in 4 Glamour Mesmers who use portal on the stairs, creating two fields from portal from each Mesmer for players to go through, along with having 1 Epidemic Necro spreading larger stacks of Confusion in an AE every 10 seconds, and you’ve got a single group that can kill an entire zerg as they’re coming up the stairs, easily.

I’ve done it with my Mesmer, and I know more of the bigger guilds are beginning to utilize this tactic as well.

Put 4 Mesmers, 1 Necro in a group, and utilize two Arrow Carts with Leg Specialist, and no amount of players could ever make it through a choke point, or up stairs, and will die in groups of 5-10, virtually instantly.

It’s silly, and that is why we use it, until they fix it.

Entropy.4732:

I’m sure Anet has many noble intentions. The problem is that their intended results will not come to pass by nerfing confusion into the ground and rendering glam mesmers extinct in WvW. The reason is that we actually SLOW DOWN the zerg clashes considerably. Confusion was never a good killer, how it worked effectively was as a pause button that would make zergs back off a bit and decrease their rate of mindless button mashing. Massive zerg balls are the problem in WvW. Confusion was one of their only counters. A recent battle NSP had with SF lasted 3 hours at our keep because we were able to prevent them from dominating through sheer force of numbers. Not solely due to confusion, but without glam mesmers they would have taken our keep immediately. Is that what Anet wants? WvW teams to win not through skill but just force of numbers? Zerg wars are fast, ugly, laggy, and not a good model for new players. Confusion served to get zergs to back up, break off into smaller, roaming groups, etc. So if their intention was to slow down the game, they just went the opposite way.

That doesn’t change the fact that it’s extremely inconsistant. Mesmers being the only solid option to slow down a big zerg is problematic because it makes WvW revolve around mesmers. Confusion can still slow things down. You didn’t get your glam spec removed any more than portals got removed when they were capped at 20 players. It’s still a very powerful and useful spec in WvW, just like GC backstab is still a powerful bust damage spec, turtle guardians are still a very powerful support spec, etc.

The difference is that it’s not so good you need it to compete, and that there’s significantly more counterplay. Four or five glam mesmers are still going to slow down and break up that zerg. The difference is they’re not going to be able to rack up as many free kills on the first blast. I’ve been on the recieving end of that and it’s unlike any other AoE spike in the game. You’re in the middle of a channel, confusion bomb hits, and you’re dead well before you can cancel your own channel. Glam mesmers controlling a fight isn’t a problem. That’s what confusion is for. Glam mesmers ending fights before anyone can react is a problem, the same way the mug crit chain was a problem in 1v1. Again, GC backstab is still top tier bust damage, just as confusion is still top tier control. The difference is that it brings the time window for counterplay against the strategy to a point that’s reasonable. if four confusion mesmers can rake in more “reaction failure” kills in two seconds than four staff eles of four good hammer warriors, that’s a problem. All three specs revolve around AoE punishment. The counterplay for confusion is to stop attacking, the counterplay for AoEs is to move. That doesn’t change the fact that under similar conditions, the enemy should have a similar reaction window to avoid the spike and actually be controlled rather than just being dead.

Mesmers being the only solid option to slow down a big zerg is problematic because it makes WvW revolve around mesmers.

Elementalists are much, much better at this. It’s just that the meta hasn’t caught on yet. Static field has no target cap. If 3 elementalists chain it while dropping meteor shower, you can can wipe a zerg.

It’s obvious that there are a lot of sPvPers and people who don’t understand aspects of WvW. Glamor mesmers played an hugely important role. They could do massive damage by doing lots of little damage to a lot of people. Most of the enemy would only get 2-4 ticks of confusion on them for a few seconds. that would average out to lets say 1000K a tick. This really isn’t that much damage all by itself. Any good team would have lots of clenses. It wasn’t reliable, because the enemy has to use their skills, unlike poison, bleed, and fire, which always tics for x amount of damage. A nicely specced necro should get ticks of bleed around 150-180. That’s a lot more deadly.

My point, however, is that if this is reduced 50%, then a team will just focus on classes that do aoe damage better. This is why you hardly see some classes in WvW, like rangers, because another class just does nearly the same thing, but better. Why should a team run a mesmer when that same player can run a necro and do more damage? To anyone who thinks shatter build is viable in WvW, you are wrong, unless you are fighting in small skirmishes. Clones die before you can press an F key. If you’re specced for that much burst damage, you’re glass and will die very quickly. Is anyone gonna play a mesmer just for veil and maybe a rare portal? I doubt it. I sure don’t. It just ruins the class diversity of WvW. Right now, it seems that WvW is turning into warriors, guardians, necros, else. Engineers are great, but rarely played. I can see thieves making a comeback.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Mesmers have always been common in WvWvW and after these “nerfs” I am sure they will still remain among top 5 professions.

Since there are only 8 professions that is hardly a feat :/

Also I dont know what server you play on/with but I always see at least 30-40 Guardians and Warriors for every Mesmer.

greyblue.4962:

Mesmers being the only solid option to slow down a big zerg is problematic because it makes WvW revolve around mesmers.

Elementalists are much, much better at this. It’s just that the meta hasn’t caught on yet. Static field has no target cap. If 3 elementalists chain it while dropping meteor shower, you can can wipe a zerg.

Oh for sure, but the thing there is that its a much easier counterplay on the individual level and doesn’t generally kill people quite as fast (you’ve got to hit the field, not mobile stunbreak, and stay in the shower long enough to go down), not only that, as a field effect you can “retreat forward” while mitigating it. Staff has always been solid in WvW when properly supported and really good in zerg fights. However, staff also doesn’t have the potential to kill in less than a second before you have a shot to mitigate it by cancelling a channel. There’s a much larger counterplay window against that type of tactic. Bringing down confusion creates a similar counterplay window. You’re still going to lose a massive amount of HP if a few mesmers coordinate as well as a few eles, but there aren’t any situations, Like ranger or mad King birds, fire and forget AoE effects, etc. Where the staff burst can leave you with zero ability to effectively react.

This is what you mesmers get for not sticking up for the thieves. Once the nerfs start, they dont stop. I cant wait til everyones favorite class is nerfed to dirt so my thief doesnt look as bad anymore.

wish.1027:

This is what you mesmers get for not sticking up for the thieves. Once the nerfs start, they dont stop. I cant wait til everyones favorite class is nerfed to dirt so my thief doesnt look as bad anymore.

Umm reveal debuff is going back to 3s smart guy lol.

Anyway if the 50% goes through just see how it goes if it is to bad anet could move it back or just do a 25% nerf or something.

The reveal buff was moved to 4s and they are reverting that change and that is a huge change for a class just like this one is for mesmers. So even if the change comes at 50% if it is really that big of a hit its not as if all is lost and it won’t go back. You just might have to wait a month’ish make good threads on the forums and they possibly will revert it.

The reveal debuff change had its initial backlash of threads but it wasn’t in all honestly a ton of those threads. They still are moving it back to 3’s. So what probably will/has to happen is the change goes through testing etc people see how it goes then feedback from the community. Its happened in the past and I can’t see why its any different here.

I plan to still run my rabid on my mesmer see how it goes. Application is easy so stacks isn’t a problem neither is kiting until the people kill themselves so I don’t feel like it will be impossible to kill people.

Confusion is all about intensity anyway which isn’t terribly hard in WvW when you can add +60% duration with pizza and 2 givers weapons which you cannot do in sPvP.

So even if you test what its like in sPvP you can’t accurately test it because you can’t get +60% duration anyway. So what you see in sPvP is not what you will see in WvW not even close.

oZii.2864:

wish.1027:

This is what you mesmers get for not sticking up for the thieves. Once the nerfs start, they dont stop. I cant wait til everyones favorite class is nerfed to dirt so my thief doesnt look as bad anymore.

Umm reveal debuff is going back to 3s smart guy lol.

Are the skills getting their damage pushed back up too? Are they allowing mug to crit again? Is caltrap cripple duration being extended to what it originally was again? etc, etc, etc, etc…

wish.1027:

oZii.2864:

wish.1027:

This is what you mesmers get for not sticking up for the thieves. Once the nerfs start, they dont stop. I cant wait til everyones favorite class is nerfed to dirt so my thief doesnt look as bad anymore.

Umm reveal debuff is going back to 3s smart guy lol.

Are the skills getting their damage pushed back up too? Are they allowing mug to crit again? Is caltrap cripple duration being extended to what it originally was again? etc, etc, etc, etc…

The damage nerfs where sPvP dancing dagger still does more damage in WvW, if I remember off top of my head the only WvW damage nerfs was to Cluster Bomb and CnD. Tactical strike got a 10% damage increase in all aspects of the game and Cloak and Dagger was never touched. The mug change is new it makes it maybe a desirable to a non crit build like pistol/dagger. Nothing wrong with making it versatile.

Is it a nerf to crit and crit damage builds yup if thats what you want.

Is it a buff to 20 points in deadly art if you build 20/0/30/20 yes. I would rather have that than a stack of might on popping venoms cause venoms is meh.

In my damage build I dont even run Mug when I go S/D with D/P offhand. I have no points in deadly arts at all. It still does damage if you spec power it will still do damage. Also I think someone said that they said they are going to boost damage up just a bit on some of the weapons. Can’t confirm that part though.

around 26:00 on the SoTG base damage brought up on some of the weapon skills so you dont have to go all the way into da or critical and can spec some defense if you chose. They didnt say it was going to be in this patch but thats what they plan to do with thief.

I tried glamour recently with 1100 condition dmg, It did seem OP against zergs, back to shatter like everyone else

oZii.2864:

The damage nerfs where sPvP dancing dagger still does more damage in WvW, if I remember off top of my head the only WvW damage nerfs was to Cluster Bomb and CnD.

I’m sorry, but the top of your head needs a tune-up; Dancing Dagger’s nerf was not an sPvP-exclusive change:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-November-15-2012/first#post808152

Dancing Dagger: This skill’s damage has been reduced by 50%.

PopeUrban.2578:

Entropy.4732:

I’m sure Anet has many noble intentions. The problem is that their intended results will not come to pass by nerfing confusion into the ground and rendering glam mesmers extinct in WvW. The reason is that we actually SLOW DOWN the zerg clashes considerably. Confusion was never a good killer, how it worked effectively was as a pause button that would make zergs back off a bit and decrease their rate of mindless button mashing. Massive zerg balls are the problem in WvW. Confusion was one of their only counters. A recent battle NSP had with SF lasted 3 hours at our keep because we were able to prevent them from dominating through sheer force of numbers. Not solely due to confusion, but without glam mesmers they would have taken our keep immediately. Is that what Anet wants? WvW teams to win not through skill but just force of numbers? Zerg wars are fast, ugly, laggy, and not a good model for new players. Confusion served to get zergs to back up, break off into smaller, roaming groups, etc. So if their intention was to slow down the game, they just went the opposite way.

That doesn’t change the fact that it’s extremely inconsistant. Mesmers being the only solid option to slow down a big zerg is problematic because it makes WvW revolve around mesmers. Confusion can still slow things down. You didn’t get your glam spec removed any more than portals got removed when they were capped at 20 players. It’s still a very powerful and useful spec in WvW, just like GC backstab is still a powerful bust damage spec, turtle guardians are still a very powerful support spec, etc.

The difference is that it’s not so good you need it to compete, and that there’s significantly more counterplay. Four or five glam mesmers are still going to slow down and break up that zerg. The difference is they’re not going to be able to rack up as many free kills on the first blast. I’ve been on the recieving end of that and it’s unlike any other AoE spike in the game. You’re in the middle of a channel, confusion bomb hits, and you’re dead well before you can cancel your own channel. Glam mesmers controlling a fight isn’t a problem. That’s what confusion is for. Glam mesmers ending fights before anyone can react is a problem, the same way the mug crit chain was a problem in 1v1. Again, GC backstab is still top tier bust damage, just as confusion is still top tier control. The difference is that it brings the time window for counterplay against the strategy to a point that’s reasonable. if four confusion mesmers can rake in more “reaction failure” kills in two seconds than four staff eles of four good hammer warriors, that’s a problem. All three specs revolve around AoE punishment. The counterplay for confusion is to stop attacking, the counterplay for AoEs is to move. That doesn’t change the fact that under similar conditions, the enemy should have a similar reaction window to avoid the spike and actually be controlled rather than just being dead.

The problem with your logic is that confusion in big zergs was already accomplishing what you’re describing without the 50% nerf. When I drop my glams (did more testing last night) this huge swath of death you’re talking about DOESN’T happen. Confusion is still not good at downing or killing a large number of players. Most of the time the massive group cleanses deal with it fast. It simply pushes people back now, before the nerf. It’s not a kill factory in any stretch of the imagination. Perhaps in some hypothetic laboratory if 6 glam mesmers all manage to drop confusion on the exact same spot and some poor fool in there has just started their channel ability, then yes. They would be dead. But 95% of the time this doesn’t happen. The majority of my experience as a mesmer is simply as a zerg slower / warder off for a time. What bugs me about this nerf is that it feels like Anet is balencing for these extreme situations where some group of 20 mesmers in T1 has been camping a cliff for days. Then the rest of us, the vast majority that players in said class get punished and drastically nerfed (50% is DRASTIC. That’s an “Oh my god the ship is about to crash into the rocks” move on anything. Cutting 50% of sugar in a cake, drastic. 25% woulda been measured.) I brought a level 14 ele into WvW yesterday and I was doing more damage than my glam mesmer in half the time. The reason people want the 50% nerf is that they don’t like the concept of confusion. They don’t like having to stop mashing their buttons and think. They want it gone from the game. This nerf is the expression of that.

One thing I AM rather curious about is after the nerfpocalypse tomorrow if confusion will simply disappear from the game except as a random proc through certain abilities. If that happens, players will REALLY have no idea what that condition is about and be caught unawares.

Xirin.8593:

oZii.2864:

The damage nerfs where sPvP dancing dagger still does more damage in WvW, if I remember off top of my head the only WvW damage nerfs was to Cluster Bomb and CnD.

I’m sorry, but the top of your head needs a tune-up; Dancing Dagger’s nerf was not an sPvP-exclusive change:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-November-15-2012/first#post808152

Dancing Dagger: This skill’s damage has been reduced by 50%.

yup that is true but its not like your entire build deals 50 percent less dmg, because u speced into condition build.it is 1 skill that was nerfed.what would u say if the said everyone using daggers deals now 50 per cent sell dmg?

selan.8354:

Xirin.8593:

oZii.2864:

The damage nerfs where sPvP dancing dagger still does more damage in WvW, if I remember off top of my head the only WvW damage nerfs was to Cluster Bomb and CnD.

I’m sorry, but the top of your head needs a tune-up; Dancing Dagger’s nerf was not an sPvP-exclusive change:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-November-15-2012/first#post808152

Dancing Dagger: This skill’s damage has been reduced by 50%.

yup that is true but its not like your entire build deals 50 percent less dmg, because u speced into condition build.it is 1 skill that was nerfed.what would u say if the said everyone using daggers gdals now 50 per cent sell dmg?

I’m not arguing anything. I’m simply correcting his incorrect statement regarding Dancing Dagger’s damage/nerf.

And once again the community Knee Jerks to an upcoming change.

Daemonne.5018:

And once again the community Knee Jerks to an upcoming change.

There is no knee jerk. There is no question that conf will be useless in WvW. It was weak before but it was the only real option for a Mesmer running with the zerg. It was possible to do some damage to another zerg, as far as im concerned it was weaker than my necros wells AoEwise. Against one single target you could get a fairly large stack, and if that idiot kept attacking with that many stack they deserved to die. It is pretty east to not run into the huge feedback bubble on the ground, it is easy to dodge the incredibly slow Mesmer clones, the scepter skill takes a very long time to get 5 stacks on a person and it is also dodgeable. This nerf is nothing but a way for anet to keep bad players playing. They can now spam there skills unchecked. If I do play my Mesmer it will just be back in small groups again in my shatter spec. I feel that spec is far more OP and it will get nerfed next because bad players will cry they cannot handle getting downed by one 3 clone mind wrack.

Influx of 5 signet warriors and thieves incoming.