Guild Wars 2

As it stands, the outnumbered buff may as well be called, the ‘You have zero chance of winning, so please leave the server now’, buff.
It gives 20% magic find—33% experience—10% world experience—and no armor damage on death.

All very well and good, but you have to have a chance of actually winning something to make use of the buff in the first place, and as the buff only comes into effect roughly when the enemy is outnumbering you three to one, the buff is practically redundant, as you will be dead pretty quick in any pitched battle (roamers aside).

Personally, I would much rather have an Outnumbered buff that would actually even the score in fight, or would actually be useful—what you guys and gals say?

The devs have a strange sense of humor, as evidenced in the tiers-apart matching system alone. This is just icing on the cake.

why we wont see a useful outnumbered buff:

scenario — player enters map where his server has outnumbered. server loses outnumbered. other players harass him to leave so server can be stronger.

No, they would rather add stat buffs that favor the team that can field greater numbers.

When a team gets the Outnumbered buff, they should also get 5 supply coming out of the spawn. Otherwise – what? – raid the reinforced enemy keep with no siege and no ability to build or repair?

We went through this on Darkhaven last night. When we weren’t bottlenecked into our spawn, we were tapping on the reinforced doors with no siege… until we got pushed back to spawn, that is.

ClaraFee.2579:

When a team gets the Outnumbered buff, they should also get 5 supply coming out of the spawn. Otherwise – what? – raid the reinforced enemy keep with no siege and no ability to build or repair?

We went through this on Darkhaven last night. When we weren’t bottlenecked into our spawn, we were tapping on the reinforced doors with no siege… until we got pushed back to spawn, that is.

Siegerazer will supply you up at spawn.

I think I’d like to see something more automated though. Just an idea. Trying to figure out why everyone avoids Siegerazer… /shrug

DevonCarver.5370:

insanemaniac.2456:

why we wont see a useful outnumbered buff:

scenario — player enters map where his server has outnumbered. server loses outnumbered. other players harass him to leave so server can be stronger.

Correct. The idea behind the buff is to incentivize you to show up even if you are outnumbered by pulling out some of the disincentive for losing a lot, but if we put anything too good on it, it will cause serious problems between players. We don’t want it to be something that people fight over, harass each other over, or generally cause a worse play experience because someone takes away the buff because it is our goal for the maps to be full and for no one to have the buff.

I do not buy that at all. It should still always be more valuable to have more people than a higher strength buff.

You could also make 2-3 gradients to the strength of outnumbered to alleviate this.

DevonCarver.5370:

insanemaniac.2456:

why we wont see a useful outnumbered buff:

scenario — player enters map where his server has outnumbered. server loses outnumbered. other players harass him to leave so server can be stronger.

Correct. The idea behind the buff is to incentivize you to show up even if you are outnumbered by pulling out some of the disincentive for losing a lot, but if we put anything too good on it, it will cause serious problems between players. We don’t want it to be something that people fight over, harass each other over, or generally cause a worse play experience because someone takes away the buff because it is our goal for the maps to be full and for no one to have the buff.

Then couldn’t you just NOT use a binary formula for the buff? Make it scale the more thoroughly outnumbered you are.

It still doesn’t look as a good reason to leave Outnumbered useless while supplying the Outnumbering server with Bloodlust.

DevonCarver.5370:

insanemaniac.2456:

why we wont see a useful outnumbered buff:

scenario — player enters map where his server has outnumbered. server loses outnumbered. other players harass him to leave so server can be stronger.

Correct. The idea behind the buff is to incentivize you to show up even if you are outnumbered by pulling out some of the disincentive for losing a lot, but if we put anything too good on it, it will cause serious problems between players. We don’t want it to be something that people fight over, harass each other over, or generally cause a worse play experience because someone takes away the buff because it is our goal for the maps to be full and for no one to have the buff.

Make it scale with the player diffrence…
We are 1 to 10 = +50 to all stats
We are 1 to 8 = +45 to all stats
We are 1 to 5 = +30 to all stats
We are 1 to 2 = +15 to all stats
We are 1 to 1.999 = +0 to all stats

How does that sound?

DevonCarver.5370:

insanemaniac.2456:

why we wont see a useful outnumbered buff:

scenario — player enters map where his server has outnumbered. server loses outnumbered. other players harass him to leave so server can be stronger.

Correct. The idea behind the buff is to incentivize you to show up even if you are outnumbered by pulling out some of the disincentive for losing a lot, but if we put anything too good on it, it will cause serious problems between players. We don’t want it to be something that people fight over, harass each other over, or generally cause a worse play experience because someone takes away the buff because it is our goal for the maps to be full and for no one to have the buff.

Well then, how about this: you get “outnumbered” (+100/every stat) when an enemy server on the map(or both enemies/2, pick one) has 3 times or more of your server’s players for more than 5-10 minutes? And you lose the buff, when your numbers become less than 1:2 in their favor, after the numbers hold steady for 5 minutes.
Let me explain why it takes time to get/lose it:
1 – when you lose the buff you know you have the numbers to try to compete against them.
2 – other players won’t be able to harass newcomers, since a lot will have to leave to make it back to 1:3 ratio(since losing the buff = 1:2 for a while) and even after that they need to wait 5-10 mins for the buff to appear, not sure if they have(miss) the numbers to get the buff, or not.
3 – you know that when the buff disappears your numbers are 1:2 at least > meaning you have a fighting chance > meaning whining is disgraceful.

^It took me 5 minutes to think about that, I am sure if you tried just a bit more you could do even better.

If you are outnumbered, your enemy should skip downed state. No more rally bots.

If they had done it right NPCs could have helped outnumbered players without giving reason to not bother showing up and just let the NPCs do all the work.

Of course that would have taken a massive amount of tweaking and balancing and they did have bigger issues. Like culling. Nevertheless, it’s a shame they didn’t put resources into that.

You can’t make losing worth showing up for in a blowout, you just can’t. Well, maybe for treadmill hamster muppets who just show up for shinies, but not for anyone who really enjoys a challenge in PvP.

DevonCarver.5370:

insanemaniac.2456:

why we wont see a useful outnumbered buff:

scenario — player enters map where his server has outnumbered. server loses outnumbered. other players harass him to leave so server can be stronger.

Correct. The idea behind the buff is to incentivize you to show up even if you are outnumbered by pulling out some of the disincentive for losing a lot, but if we put anything too good on it, it will cause serious problems between players. We don’t want it to be something that people fight over, harass each other over, or generally cause a worse play experience because someone takes away the buff because it is our goal for the maps to be full and for no one to have the buff.

in the bottom of the ratings, it is typical for all 3 servers to have outnumbered on (at least) 2 of the 4 maps at all times. the looming threat of season 1 and the “omg pick your server!” mentality/hype has done and will do nothing to change this. if it is your goal to fill our maps, you need to step in and provide different incentives to encourage players not to just stack certain servers as has happened for the last year and will continue to happen through season 1.

as for outnumbered, i dont like it. it feels bad. but i understand it. and i think you could probably do better, but i think its a low priority compared to other things like ridiculous population imbalances, glitches, sabotage, and defense rewards vs attack rewards.

DevonCarver.5370:

insanemaniac.2456:

why we wont see a useful outnumbered buff:

scenario — player enters map where his server has outnumbered. server loses outnumbered. other players harass him to leave so server can be stronger.

Correct. The idea behind the buff is to incentivize you to show up even if you are outnumbered by pulling out some of the disincentive for losing a lot, but if we put anything too good on it, it will cause serious problems between players. We don’t want it to be something that people fight over, harass each other over, or generally cause a worse play experience because someone takes away the buff because it is our goal for the maps to be full and for no one to have the buff.

Unfortunately, this same harassment/bad experience can happen to players that die when the other team has the new orb buff .

DevonCarver.5370:

insanemaniac.2456:

why we wont see a useful outnumbered buff:

scenario — player enters map where his server has outnumbered. server loses outnumbered. other players harass him to leave so server can be stronger.

Correct. The idea behind the buff is to incentivize you to show up even if you are outnumbered by pulling out some of the disincentive for losing a lot, but if we put anything too good on it, it will cause serious problems between players. We don’t want it to be something that people fight over, harass each other over, or generally cause a worse play experience because someone takes away the buff because it is our goal for the maps to be full and for no one to have the buff.

People already harass each other over enough stuff. Whether it be builds, what profession they are running, what food they are running, and so on. I’d suggest removing the idea of controlling that from consideration when making these decisions.

DevonCarver.5370:

insanemaniac.2456:

why we wont see a useful outnumbered buff:

scenario — player enters map where his server has outnumbered. server loses outnumbered. other players harass him to leave so server can be stronger.

Correct. The idea behind the buff is to incentivize you to show up even if you are outnumbered by pulling out some of the disincentive for losing a lot, but if we put anything too good on it, it will cause serious problems between players. We don’t want it to be something that people fight over, harass each other over, or generally cause a worse play experience because someone takes away the buff because it is our goal for the maps to be full and for no one to have the buff.

You’re already causing conflict in lower WvW pop servers which constantly have this “buff” since they are going back and forth with the PvE community about fielding numbers since your buff means nothing. And now, this buff will mean even less when lower populated servers go against high populated servers and they’ll get buffs from the new islands anyway, to counteract the “outnumbered buff”.

And it wasn’t even hard to reach to that conclusion…

DevonCarver.5370:

insanemaniac.2456:

why we wont see a useful outnumbered buff:

scenario — player enters map where his server has outnumbered. server loses outnumbered. other players harass him to leave so server can be stronger.

Correct. The idea behind the buff is to incentivize you to show up even if you are outnumbered by pulling out some of the disincentive for losing a lot, but if we put anything too good on it, it will cause serious problems between players. We don’t want it to be something that people fight over, harass each other over, or generally cause a worse play experience because someone takes away the buff because it is our goal for the maps to be full and for no one to have the buff.

Do you guys do any kind of research before making such statements?

First, if you actually cared about this, explain the fact that rally exists in WvW? I see more rage directed at walking rally points then anything else in the game, people telling others to stop following them, telling uplevels to leave WvW, people following on purpose to troll them, etc, etc. This is ok, but outnumbered buff rage would be horrible?

Second, Warhammer had a desired out numbered buff, you just switched maps when you lost it on one map and found a fight elsewhere, you didn’t start frothing at the mouth and yelling at someone for entering the zone.

I see enough PvE rage in LA to make WvW look downright civilized.

Niim.9260:

DevonCarver.5370:

insanemaniac.2456:

why we wont see a useful outnumbered buff:

scenario — player enters map where his server has outnumbered. server loses outnumbered. other players harass him to leave so server can be stronger.

Correct. The idea behind the buff is to incentivize you to show up even if you are outnumbered by pulling out some of the disincentive for losing a lot, but if we put anything too good on it, it will cause serious problems between players. We don’t want it to be something that people fight over, harass each other over, or generally cause a worse play experience because someone takes away the buff because it is our goal for the maps to be full and for no one to have the buff.

Do you guys do any kind of research before making such statements?

First, if you actually cared about this, explain the fact that rally exists in WvW? I see more rage directed at walking rally points then anything else in the game, people telling others to stop following them, telling uplevels to leave WvW, people following on purpose to troll them, etc, etc. This is ok, but outnumbered buff rage would be horrible?

I have to agree here, you should NOT be able to rally off kills in PvP. It’s just so ridiculously flawed and problematic. Hell, rallying from kills doesn’t need to exist in the game, period. If removing it just from PvP/WvW is so hard.

AndrewSX.3794:

It still doesn’t look as a good reason to leave Outnumbered useless while supplying the Outnumbering server with Bloodlust.

I fear that as well. I hope my fears are unfounded.

Outmanned does already have a tactical buff to it, you know your out numbered now so why are you going to run full charge into a tower/keep knowing your outnumbered, so instead why not use this to your advantage and use small numbers of people to distract aLlarger force ( that you know about thanks to out numbered) so your server can better fight the enemy, the only problem is as the game is now, using something like this to your advantage won’t work because everyone favors zerging for the rewards over actually defending or holding anything, I did post on another topic that making repeatable wvw achievements for rewards (like spend 100supply or repairs or escorting 10 dolyaks gives you a reward) instead of rewards for killing champions taking locations and such would make people want to do other things rather then blobing, and that’s how using something like outnumbered would be effective to utilize if wvw rewards favored every activity equally instead of zerging being the best reward system for wvw

Yeah when getting the outnumerbed buff you will now not only face double the enemy` s but they will also have the bloodlust buff. What a nice suprise for the lower populated servers.
Outmanned buff should be the bloodlust buff.
Bloodlust can be similar to current outmanned ( more wxp, karma, loot, gold, etc). To keep everyone intrested in the bloodlust buff just give the opponent servers a debuff with reduction in wxp, karma, loot,etc. Guilds, zergs will want the bloodlust before capping things and the others want to get rid of the debuff.

ukuni.8745:

Outmanned does already have a tactical buff to it, you know your out numbered now so why are you going to run full charge into a tower/keep knowing your outnumbered, so instead why not use this to your advantage and use small numbers of people to distract aLlarger force ( that you know about thanks to out numbered)

Distract may seem nice on paper but how do you distract? Have you been spawn camp before? The spawn camper build siege to hold people in . Therefore OUTNUMBERED side need MORE people than the campers to have a successful breakout.
Also using the PvE breakout may seem good for low-pop server, for high pop server, the siege champ will get taken out within 1-2min after leaving spawn along with whoever is with him. Bad idea is bad.
This will get worst when the new system comes in as the greater number will want the losing side to stay in spawn .
And Distract don’t win battle. You can’t pull everyone from the spawn-camping and trust me, you will still die with zero reward.
In WvW,reward do play a part.

KOK.2650:

ukuni.8745:

Outmanned does already have a tactical buff to it, you know your out numbered now so why are you going to run full charge into a tower/keep knowing your outnumbered, so instead why not use this to your advantage and use small numbers of people to distract aLlarger force ( that you know about thanks to out numbered)

Distract may seem nice on paper but how do you distract? Have you been spawn camp before? The spawn camper build siege to hold people in . Therefore OUTNUMBERED side need MORE people than the campers to have a successful breakout.
Also using the PvE breakout may seem good for low-pop server, for high pop server, the siege champ will get taken out within 1-2min after leaving spawn along with whoever is with him. Bad idea is bad.
This will get worst when the new system comes in as the greater number will want the losing side to stay in spawn .
And Distract don’t win battle. You can’t pull everyone from the spawn-camping and trust me, you will still die with zero reward.
In WvW,reward do play a part.

I tend to go out the other 2 entrances when getting spawn camped, maybe you should see how fast that zerg leaves the entrance and there siege when you cap the side camps and move on from there they only want them kills stop entertaining them, it’s like you think there’s only one option, you ever thought how small groups beat zergs? It’s called player skill and tactics, try learning some and lets not also forget the option of tactical retreat, obviously that zerg camping your spawn doesn’t want you taking there border lands so go somewhere else if you are unable to do anything on that particular

DevonCarver.5370:

This argument boils down to “Well it’s happening already. So let’s just do whatever.” I agree that people harass other people and part of what we try and do is mitigate that. So, we wouldn’t make a change that would exacerbate that, unless it had a major pay off. This doesn’t fit that criteria.

A change that would make WvW so much more enjoyable for servers that are completely outnumbered should entirely fit the criteria you just mentioned.

You don’t have to make it such an overpowering buff that there would be an advantage in having less players. Something to help level the playing field a bit would be nice though.

DevonCarver.5370:

insanemaniac.2456:

why we wont see a useful outnumbered buff:

scenario — player enters map where his server has outnumbered. server loses outnumbered. other players harass him to leave so server can be stronger.

Correct. The idea behind the buff is to incentivize you to show up even if you are outnumbered by pulling out some of the disincentive for losing a lot, but if we put anything too good on it, it will cause serious problems between players. We don’t want it to be something that people fight over, harass each other over, or generally cause a worse play experience because someone takes away the buff because it is our goal for the maps to be full and for no one to have the buff.

20% magic find
33% experience
10% world experience
No armor damage on death.

This is no incentive at all.
How many players go to the WvW to farm, to have more experience when outnumbered? Going outnumbered, players are simply food for cannons, and actually prefer to move to other borders/out of wvw due to this fact.

Outnumbered should be a tool for regulating and minimizing the difference. The way it is now do quite the opposite.

My suggestion, create a scale of outnumbered:

Borderline Outnumbered- as it is now
Lightly Outnumbered – Previous, cost to upgrade – 20%, + 5 supplies carried;
Outnumbered – Previous , wall /gate received damage -20%;
Heavily Outnumbered – Previous, Dolyaks damage received -10%, Able to pick supplies @ Border’s/Eternal spawn zone.
Insanely Outunumbered – Previous, Guards/Lords damage received – 10% and damage dealt +10%.

This way it will not provide players for an unwealthy advantages (roamers and zergs), and it will boos the defensive capabilities of the zone until more players arrive. Less players can defend for more time (more supplies, harder doors and wall, tougher guards and dolyaks).

What do you think? Would this be bad for the purpose of harassment?

Problem with Bloodlust I see now, and will be worse when League will start(people will transfer)
You have server A stomping server B and C (EU fight tier 1,3,5 this week, check score on mos from last week EU)

Server A will stomp other servers with their numbers and servers B and C will have a problem to even get the closest tower for a while.
Server B will make havoc squard of 5 people and go to other bl for bloodlust buff.
Server A will be noticed about loosing buff, so they will send 10 people to defend it.

While server B send half of his army(on lower servers, dont count pugs,because hey they follow only dorito and no dorito with common sense will show in this situation) and will be even more disadvantaged on home borderland. They send that havoc squad to only one objective because they dont have people to capture and hold 3 buffs, not even 2 buffs. And hardly 1 buff.

Server A will send half on his army too, but that will be 30 people in total, distributed to each on the borderlands to protect buffs.

Final situation:
Server B have now only 5 people and still no buff. Server A have 30 people and 3 buffs.

How can this help to improve fights?
And because of League Season 1, people are changing servers, so coverage will be even bigger difference.

ukuni.8745:

I tend to go out the other 2 entrances when getting spawn camped, maybe you should see how fast that zerg leaves the entrance and there siege when you cap the side camps and move on from there they only want them kills stop entertaining them, it’s like you think there’s only one option, you ever thought how small groups beat zergs? It’s called player skill and tactics, try learning some and lets not also forget the option of tactical retreat, obviously that zerg camping your spawn doesn’t want you taking there border lands so go somewhere else if you are unable to do anything on that particular

In case you wonder, the only way you can run back (if you are discovered) is from the main spawn entrance(where the enemies zerg are) or you can port back and try again(ROFL). Side camp is often guarded, the only camp that is not guarded is half way across the map and you do it for what? Slighty more wxp and loot ?
Sorry friend, most people don’t like to run 4-5min with risk from being discovered just for some laughable reward.
All in all small group never beat zerg that is more than twice their number. They can only hold them off for a while because zerg don’t charge in at the same time. I have never seem any of these great small group and that is from someone who has a lvl 98 ranger and lvl 63 necro (WvW rank).

Borderline Outnumbered- as it is now
Lightly Outnumbered – Previous, cost to upgrade – 20%, + 5 supplies carried;
Outnumbered – Previous , wall /gate received damage -20%;
Heavily Outnumbered – Previous, Dolyaks damage received -10%, Able to pick supplies @ Border’s/Eternal spawn zone.
Insanely Outunumbered – Previous, Guards/Lords damage received – 10% and damage dealt +10%.

This way it will not provide players for an unwealthy advantages (roamers and zergs), and it will boos the defensive capabilities of the zone until more players arrive. Less players can defend for more time (more supplies, harder doors and wall, tougher guards and dolyaks).

What do you think? Would this be bad for the purpose of harassment?

Main Problem : When you are getting blown-out, you will have
NO keep
NO tower
NO camp
NO Dolyaks to defend
All your buff is useless .

KOK,

I don’t say i got the perfect solution, but it’s a pretty good start point. Those example were examples on how outnumbered can have some buffs and at the same time, don’t be an advantage to the players.

Giving +x% to guards/lords/guards/structures and receiving -y% damage from lords and guards and getting more/faster supplies are ways of delaying the opposing sides and therefor gaining extra advantages.

Indeed we can say 1 – 10 in the battlefield is still a disadvantage, but no buff increase should be handed down to players.

By this method outnumbered players:
- Can take down towers faster (even the nearest tower to border spawn), due to having more supplies and doing more damage;
- Can spend more time defending cause the walls/gates endure more.
- Spend less money cause the upgrades cost less.
- Get help from guards (better atk and defense).

Obviously a big zerg will get their way, but it’s still a valid point!

/cheers

I don’t really mind the current outnumbered – when I get it, I know I’m going on a death wish trip, but it doesn’t cost me any repairs and will get me more from the ones I manage to get down.

Swapping bloodlust – outnumbered? nah – I hate bloodlust in the 1st place, so will be hypocritical of me to want it when it suits me.

Could it be better? yeah, always – and quite like the +5 supply idea – the times a small team can’t build more than 1 ram to try and reclaim something are countless – with only 1 ram up, the zerg has time to respond and thwart your effort :P

DevonCarver.5370:

insanemaniac.2456:

why we wont see a useful outnumbered buff:

scenario — player enters map where his server has outnumbered. server loses outnumbered. other players harass him to leave so server can be stronger.

Correct. The idea behind the buff is to incentivize you to show up even if you are outnumbered by pulling out some of the disincentive for losing a lot, but if we put anything too good on it, it will cause serious problems between players. We don’t want it to be something that people fight over, harass each other over, or generally cause a worse play experience because someone takes away the buff because it is our goal for the maps to be full and for no one to have the buff.

DevonCarver.5370:

timidobserver.7925:

People already harass each other over enough stuff. Whether it be builds, what profession they are running, what food they are running, and so on. I’d suggest removing the idea of controlling that from consideration when making these decisions.

This argument boils down to “Well it’s happening already. So let’s just do whatever.” I agree that people harass other people and part of what we try and do is mitigate that. So, we wouldn’t make a change that would exacerbate that, unless it had a major pay off. This doesn’t fit that criteria.

What!? I am going to refrain from actually saying something mean to you and be constructive…..

I like it now when i’m roaming and I get free repairs from the buff, but I don’t yell at people to leave when I lose that…..sure maybe some people do

You argument for NOT BALANCING things is that you afraid people are going to HARASS others?!?! THIS is the basis of your reasoning?! Oh boy my friend you guys won’t be doing much then….

Are there better ways to implement some sort of buff? Are there other methods to try to balance things out when your outnumbered? Or is it more you’re saying JUST LIVE WITH IT…its part of the game….

If the last part is your guys stance…then just get rid of some of the lower tier servers…allow everyone the ability to transfer and just allow WvW on like 8 servers or so, so that the matchups become more balanced.

DevonCarver.5370:

timidobserver.7925:

People already harass each other over enough stuff. Whether it be builds, what profession they are running, what food they are running, and so on. I’d suggest removing the idea of controlling that from consideration when making these decisions.

This argument boils down to “Well it’s happening already. So let’s just do whatever.” I agree that people harass other people and part of what we try and do is mitigate that. So, we wouldn’t make a change that would exacerbate that, unless it had a major pay off. This doesn’t fit that criteria.

Um…. In hundreds of hours playing I’ve NEVER seen that happen. First, NO ONE is keeping track of who’s on the map, second, no one knows the exact outnumbered math, and third NO ONE really assumes they have a right to be on the map and another player doesn’t. Forth, if the buff were scaled with numbers, no one would care about losing 1-2 stats at a time, or even notice. Edit: Particularly since it’s all dependent on the enemy team’s size which is out of everyone’s control.

Meanwhile it would actually have a real effect on creating a more balanced battlefield which everyone would appreciate.

If you don’t play the game, at least listen to the people who do. People only harass each other over stupidity like bad siege placement or claiming a keep without using buffs. And that’s because it’s deserved.

I have to disagree with Mr. Carver on this one. Looking at a minority instead of the Majority of regulars disheartens me.

Without a proper handicap system, the new league system will be detrimental to the small wvw servers.

Without a doubt, simply sticking buffs on the outmanned system is not the way to go, and the fix would have to be much more extensive and would take a considerable amount of time, but I do feel it is needed.

A player shouldn’t be forced to pick between staying with his/her server and continue to loose week by week, or leave his/her friends to enjoy the fruits of WvW.

Some servers really have a great WvW system, and yes it’s because of the wvw community on said server. However, it really appears that the lower/loosing server have not been taken into consideration by the WvW team.

A scaling system that levels the playing field regardless of numbers would make WvW fun, competitive, and challenging.

But maybe I’m seeing this all wrong.

Easy fix. (Keep everything the outmanned buff currently does, but add the following)

Tier the outmanned buff 3 ways (cause it is WvWvW)
1st tier: Your server needs to capture 3 objectives per BL to get Bloodlust buff.
2nd tier: Your server needs to capture 2 objectives per BL to get Bloodlust buff.
3rd tier: Your server needs to capture 1 objective per BL to get Bloodlust buff.

1st = no outmanned buff (high population)
2nd = outmanned buff (medium population)
3rd = outmanned buff (lowest population)

Is this dynamic?

Zephyrus.9680:

DevonCarver.5370:

timidobserver.7925:

People already harass each other over enough stuff. Whether it be builds, what profession they are running, what food they are running, and so on. I’d suggest removing the idea of controlling that from consideration when making these decisions.

This argument boils down to “Well it’s happening already. So let’s just do whatever.” I agree that people harass other people and part of what we try and do is mitigate that. So, we wouldn’t make a change that would exacerbate that, unless it had a major pay off. This doesn’t fit that criteria.

Um…. In hundreds of hours playing I’ve NEVER seen that happen. First, NO ONE is keeping track of who’s on the map, second, no one knows the exact outnumbered math, and third NO ONE really assumes they have a right to be on the map and another player doesn’t. Forth, if the buff were scaled with numbers, no one would care about losing 1-2 stats at a time, or even notice. Edit: Particularly since it’s all dependent on the enemy team’s size which is out of everyone’s control.

Meanwhile it would actually have a real effect on creating a more balanced battlefield which everyone would appreciate.

If you don’t play the game, at least listen to the people who do. People only harass each other over stupidity like bad siege placement or claiming a keep without using buffs. And that’s because it’s deserved.

There’s that as well. Assuming Carver’s scenario actually even occurred , how would people know the buff did not disappear because the other side lost players? And even without that factor, not having any way of knowing WHO just joined, does he really think people are just going to start yelling at random people to leave?
That’s not even harassment at that point since it’s not directed at any particular person, it’s just someone being a moron and probably getting themselves reported by multiple others.

Zephyrus.9680:

DevonCarver.5370:

timidobserver.7925:

People already harass each other over enough stuff. Whether it be builds, what profession they are running, what food they are running, and so on. I’d suggest removing the idea of controlling that from consideration when making these decisions.

This argument boils down to “Well it’s happening already. So let’s just do whatever.” I agree that people harass other people and part of what we try and do is mitigate that. So, we wouldn’t make a change that would exacerbate that, unless it had a major pay off. This doesn’t fit that criteria.

Um…. In hundreds of hours playing I’ve NEVER seen that happen. First, NO ONE is keeping track of who’s on the map, second, no one knows the exact outnumbered math, and third NO ONE really assumes they have a right to be on the map and another player doesn’t. Forth, if the buff were scaled with numbers, no one would care about losing 1-2 stats at a time, or even notice. Edit: Particularly since it’s all dependent on the enemy team’s size which is out of everyone’s control.

Meanwhile it would actually have a real effect on creating a more balanced battlefield which everyone would appreciate.

If you don’t play the game, at least listen to the people who do. People only harass each other over stupidity like bad siege placement or claiming a keep without using buffs. And that’s because it’s deserved.

There’s that as well. Assuming Carver’s scenario actually even occurred , how would people know the buff did not disappear because the other side lost players? And even without that factor, not having any way of knowing WHO just joined, does he really think people are just going to start yelling at random people to leave?
That’s not even harassment at that point since it’s not directed at any particular person, it’s just someone being a moron and probably getting themselves reported by multiple others.
Besides, if the outnumbered buff disappears, logically that should mean your side is no longer heavily out-numbered by the enemy, and you no longer even need the buff.

Grimwolf.7163:

Zephyrus.9680:

DevonCarver.5370:

timidobserver.7925:

People already harass each other over enough stuff. Whether it be builds, what profession they are running, what food they are running, and so on. I’d suggest removing the idea of controlling that from consideration when making these decisions.

This argument boils down to “Well it’s happening already. So let’s just do whatever.” I agree that people harass other people and part of what we try and do is mitigate that. So, we wouldn’t make a change that would exacerbate that, unless it had a major pay off. This doesn’t fit that criteria.

Um…. In hundreds of hours playing I’ve NEVER seen that happen. First, NO ONE is keeping track of who’s on the map, second, no one knows the exact outnumbered math, and third NO ONE really assumes they have a right to be on the map and another player doesn’t. Forth, if the buff were scaled with numbers, no one would care about losing 1-2 stats at a time, or even notice. Edit: Particularly since it’s all dependent on the enemy team’s size which is out of everyone’s control.

Meanwhile it would actually have a real effect on creating a more balanced battlefield which everyone would appreciate.

If you don’t play the game, at least listen to the people who do. People only harass each other over stupidity like bad siege placement or claiming a keep without using buffs. And that’s because it’s deserved.

There’s that as well. Assuming Carver’s scenario actually even occurred , how would people know the buff did not disappear because the other side lost players? And even without that factor, not having any way of knowing WHO just joined, does he really think people are just going to start yelling at random people to leave?
That’s not even harassment at that point since it’s not directed at any particular person, it’s just someone being a moron and probably getting themselves reported by multiple others.
Besides, if the outnumbered buff disappears, logically that should mean your side is no longer heavily out-numbered by the enemy, and you no longer even need the buff.

Yep….utterly preposterous someone would use that as a valid argument for trying to balance a game or game mode…

we don’t want people to harass each other…lets just implement a bunch of updates nobody asked for so they can harass the developers instead! 0.o

DevonCarver.5370:

insanemaniac.2456:

why we wont see a useful outnumbered buff:

scenario — player enters map where his server has outnumbered. server loses outnumbered. other players harass him to leave so server can be stronger.

Correct. The idea behind the buff is to incentivize you to show up even if you are outnumbered by pulling out some of the disincentive for losing a lot, but if we put anything too good on it, it will cause serious problems between players. We don’t want it to be something that people fight over, harass each other over, or generally cause a worse play experience because someone takes away the buff because it is our goal for the maps to be full and for no one to have the buff.

With that logic, why would you buff the already strong team with stat boosts then (bloodlust)? Why would the outnumbered people even log on when they get magic find, while the opposite server gets buffs that helps them to spawn camp and make sure no one leaves the base other than by logging off and forgetting about wubwub alltogether?

I agree the outnumbered buff is useless in its current state everything you get from it doesn’t help when you are out manned 3 to 1 because you are going to be getting rolled. Honestly you really think people are going to get mad they lost the outnumbered buff if you change it to a stat buff that is just crazy. Outnumbered should be something that evens the ground for the dedicated wvw players not just well at least I don’t have pay for repairs and if I happen to get this camp/tower ill get more wxp.

FrouFrou.4958:

DevonCarver.5370:

insanemaniac.2456:

why we wont see a useful outnumbered buff:

scenario — player enters map where his server has outnumbered. server loses outnumbered. other players harass him to leave so server can be stronger.

Correct. The idea behind the buff is to incentivize you to show up even if you are outnumbered by pulling out some of the disincentive for losing a lot, but if we put anything too good on it, it will cause serious problems between players. We don’t want it to be something that people fight over, harass each other over, or generally cause a worse play experience because someone takes away the buff because it is our goal for the maps to be full and for no one to have the buff.

With that logic, why would you buff the already strong team with stat boosts then (bloodlust)? Why would the outnumbered people even log on when they get magic find, while the opposite server gets buffs that helps them to spawn camp and make sure no one leaves the base other than by logging off and forgetting about wubwub alltogether?

Bloodlust is neutral and easy to neutralize. If you’re getting outnumbered, why would you want to go against an even more populated server next round?

Dual.8953:

FrouFrou.4958:

DevonCarver.5370:

insanemaniac.2456:

why we wont see a useful outnumbered buff:

scenario — player enters map where his server has outnumbered. server loses outnumbered. other players harass him to leave so server can be stronger.

Correct. The idea behind the buff is to incentivize you to show up even if you are outnumbered by pulling out some of the disincentive for losing a lot, but if we put anything too good on it, it will cause serious problems between players. We don’t want it to be something that people fight over, harass each other over, or generally cause a worse play experience because someone takes away the buff because it is our goal for the maps to be full and for no one to have the buff.

With that logic, why would you buff the already strong team with stat boosts then (bloodlust)? Why would the outnumbered people even log on when they get magic find, while the opposite server gets buffs that helps them to spawn camp and make sure no one leaves the base other than by logging off and forgetting about wubwub alltogether?

Bloodlust is neutral and easy to neutralize. If you’re getting outnumbered, why would you want to go against an even more populated server next round?

I’ll wait until they implement it before we go saying it will be easy to neutralize…in theory it doesn’t take a lot to cap it….

The point he is making is that they don’t want to give a stat buff to the outnumbered server to help balance things out….

but instead, they’ll give a stat buff to the strongest/most populated server, since they are the one’s that will more than likely hold the objective more than everybody else…..

Oh but, the real reason is they don’t want players harassing players for losing the outnumbered buff…..makes sense…

Some ideas:

1. How about adding a speed boost to the Outnumbered stat? Something that stacks with the player’s current boosts. This would help with a couple of problems. It doesn’t have to be large, maybe 10%. Enough that someone using sigils can outrun someone using a speed booster. This would make it easier to break out when spawncamped, and give you time to race to a supply camp etc to raid it.

2. Grant extra supply carrying capacity, or make each supply count 2x as much when used. Smaller teams could then build siege faster.

3. Grant the buff with a certain minimum amount of time, with a timer requirement before applying and a cooldown when it expires. So you must be outnumbered for at least 2 minutes before you get a guaranteed minimum 30 minute buff. At the same time post a message to the server similar to the banner we get when Scarlett’s minions attack, saying that you’re outnumbered in WvW and need help. Once your timer expires or the pop limit is hit, put it on cooldown for at least 30 minutes. This would discourage servers mass-leaving just to get the buff. This would also limit the maximum the banners would show up to once per hour worst-case.

moronwmachinegun.3815:

Some ideas:

1. How about adding a speed boost to the Outnumbered stat? Something that stacks with the player’s current boosts. This would help with a couple of problems. It doesn’t have to be large, maybe 10%. Enough that someone using sigils can outrun someone using a speed booster. This would make it easier to break out when spawncamped, and give you time to race to a supply camp etc to raid it.

2. Grant extra supply carrying capacity, or make each supply count 2x as much when used. Smaller teams could then build siege faster.

3. Grant the buff with a certain minimum amount of time, with a timer requirement before applying and a cooldown when it expires. So you must be outnumbered for at least 2 minutes before you get a guaranteed minimum 30 minute buff. At the same time post a message to the server similar to the banner we get when Scarlett’s minions attack, saying that you’re outnumbered in WvW and need help. Once your timer expires or the pop limit is hit, put it on cooldown for at least 30 minutes. This would discourage servers mass-leaving just to get the buff. This would also limit the maximum the banners would show up to once per hour worst-case.

Doesn’t sound too bad. I might add the measure: Exsess supplies dissappears if you leave the map.

You cannot punish a server for having a higher population than another. Even a simple speed boost does that. The outnumbered buff is not the issue. Making WvW not a numbers game is the issue.

EchenSketch.9142:

You cannot punish a server for having a higher population than another. Even a simple speed boost does that.

This isn’t a good reason to reward it with Bloodlust tho, or do not help in a meaningful way (instead of karma/exp boosts) the outnumbered side.

Any side with an outnumbered buff should have a longer amount of time before a target, like a tower or castle, shows crossed swords, around 1 minute.

Fade.7658:

Any side with an outnumbered buff should have a longer amount of time before a target, like a tower or castle, shows crossed swords, around 1 minute.

That suggestion is really good to be honest