Guild Wars 2

I for one, hate the downed state in wvw as a solo player, even if you do win, you loose because people can rez each other so fast and easy.

This game in wvw is a very unfriendly solo / small scale. As soon as you meet larger numbers, you suffer on a quite high scale, regardless of your skill as a player. Don’t forget that some of us do not want to play in a zerg. Some of us prefer the small scale / solo option.

And no, I do not want to play spvp.

Find another mmo then, this game thought outside the box and created a game without healers and rezzing class’s. Downed state is a part of this system. You don’t like this system I can’t help you, WvW is not 1 v 1 experience, yes you can find duels I do all the time but they are few and far in between and don’t expect it of my gaming experience. I also don’t expect to change every other players gaming experience to suffice my wants.

Dredrum.2563:

Find another mmo then, this game thought outside the box and created a game without healers and rezzing class’s. Downed state is a part of this system. You don’t like this system I can’t help you, WvW is not 1 v 1 experience, yes you can find duels I do all the time but they are few and far in between and don’t expect it of my gaming experience. I also don’t expect to change every other players gaming experience to suffice my wants.

Believe me, if there was a proper hardcore world pvp game. A lot of us would go there. Unfortunately, there is none. I would be one of the first to switch.

It’s true that as it is now, wvw isn’t about the 1 v 1 experience. That doesn’t change the fact that a lot of us enjoy it more than zerging.

Arenanet has stated that they wanted to make a game for everyone, so I’m simply stating that downed state needs to be checked upon for those of us who enjoy small scale more than zergs. Not that I believe anything will happen of course.

Downed state in it’s own factor is a nice mechanic, but it doesn’t belong in wvw at the current easy mode state it’s in. It could at least be nerfed a bit, so you can’t rez someone in two seconds after they are downed. It’s way to easy currently to rez people up when they are downed.

Dying should have some consequence, it’s far to forgiving as it is now. And we who do small scale, suffer from it.

I don’t mind the downed state at all. What I do find annoying is being able to revive someone completely dead in WvW.

I think revive allies should be tone down a little.. It’s easy to drop any cc and ress someone without getting a reward for downing him.
I had fights of 2v1 or 3v1 when I need to kill the person more than 3 times in order to put them out.. Maybe make finisher 1 second less.

xKedge.5493:

I think revive allies should be tone down a little.. It’s easy to drop any cc and ress someone without getting a reward for downing him.
I had fights of 2v1 or 3v1 when I need to kill the person more than 3 times in order to put them out.. Maybe make finisher 1 second less.

I agree with you, at least something like that wouldn’t hurt the rest of the people so much, but it would improve the small scale quite a lot as you wouldn’t be putting yourself in such a horrible spot trying to stomp someone for two seconds.

It’s quite silly tbh. That a game, that has been said to be one of the most mobile pvp games of our time. Is one of the least mobile when it comes to terms of finishing people off.

please go to spvp and stop asking to polish WvW for your small-scale/solo needs. It feels like you are crying because you cant finish off the 3 upscaled noobs that you encountered and put to downstate with a few swings.. those are not kills btw, nonono.

Steelo.4597:

please go to spvp and stop asking to polish WvW for your small-scale/solo needs. It feels like you are crying because you cant finish off the 3 upscaled noobs that you encountered and put to downstate with a few swings.. those are not kills btw, nonono.

Now I’m wondering where the hostility is coming from tbh. Anyways I won’t jump on that train.

I stated earlier that I do not wish to do spvp, probably you didn’t read my entire post, I’m hoping you will read this one though.

Simply because we have different play styles Steelo, doesn’t mean that you can tell others how to play. We all play differently and enjoy the game in different ways. We all bring something to the table regardless.
In the current status of wvw, you can of course offer more to the realm by playing as a zerg than as small scale. But small scale can quite easily take everything except keeps if they play correctly.

I’m guessing that you enjoy the game by playing with your guild as a Commander. In which the downed state has a different setup, if you die as a Commander or as a guildie, you want your guild to get you up fast so you can continue, it’s a whole tactic in it self. I can understand that.

But please, at least offer proper arguments and ideas instead of jumping on the flame train straight away.

If enemies are trying to ress a downed player just throw a random CC and start stomping right away, you’ll probably finish the enemy before his mate recovers.

If you are afraid of having your stomp interrupted just cast an invulnerability/stability/barrier/whatever right before (or during) the stomp and the enemy will be as good as dead.

If you don’t have any of the above on you skill/utility bar, or you just spam them mindlessly during the combat leaving you off guard when you have to finish of the enemy, you still have to learn how to play in WvW/PvP.

The downed mechanic is a part of this game, so please stop whining about it.

just saying you dont spvp because its hard there and you just want to kill upscaled newbs and failing to finish them so you QQ, i know it because i do it myself, i roam solo with my warrior and i have the same issues as you. only i dont count putting someone to downstate as “winning” and i would be in deep shame to ask to remove downstate so i can kill newbs by the dozen. if you are a skilled played and looking to demonstrate your skill, you have no place in WvW, your place is in spvp. “I dont want to spvp, please make WvW for small-scale” is just this: I want to kill upscaled newbs in WvW because i get rickrolled in spvp by people with the same gear.

Easy fix to this: Start targeting the rezzers. I always do (I am a ranger so I usually can do this from safety). The rezzers either back off or they need a rez themselves. Rezzers make themselves prone.

Can’t say there aren’t situations where a zerg can overpower dmg. But usually there is something much worse going on in those situations besides a few rezzed invaders.

I don’t think it is a big deal…

Melkiah.2496:

If enemies are trying to ress a downed player just throw a random CC and start stomping right away, you’ll probably finish the enemy before his mate recovers.

If you are afraid of having your stomp interrupted just cast an invulnerability/stability/barrier/whatever right before (or during) the stomp and the enemy will be as good as dead.

If you don’t have any of the above on you skill/utility bar, or you just spam them mindlessly during the combat leaving you off guard when you have to finish of the enemy, you still have to learn how to play in WvW/PvP.

Enjoy

While this sounds good in practice, wasting a survival utility or cc to get a stomp off. Isn’t always ideal, as there is no forced release in WvW. The time it takes to rez someone even finished off, isn’t very high. When facing a larger number off opponents, timing and use of utilities is crucial to your own survival.

Using a survival utility to get a stomp off works fine in 1vs(1-3), 2vs(2-5) and so on. But as soon as the numbers increase even more, those survival utilities becomes so much more valuable. More so when facing good opponents, we shouldn’t be forced to use survival skills to get a stomp off. At least not without some kind of forced release. We have killed them once already after all, the game is to nice in pvp.

That’s only my own opinion of course.

Steelo.4597:

just saying you dont spvp because its hard there and you just want to kill upscaled newbs and failing to finish them so you QQ, i know it because i do it myself, i roam solo with my warrior and i have the same issues as you. only i dont count putting someone to downstate as “winning” and i would be in deep shame to ask to remove downstate so i can kill newbs by the dozen. if you are a skilled played and looking to demonstrate your skill, you have no place in WvW, your place is in spvp. “I dont want to spvp, please make WvW for small-scale” is just this: I want to kill upscaled newbs in WvW because i get rickrolled in spvp by people with the same gear.

No, I don’t play spvp because it’s “hard there”. I don’t play spvp because I enjoy open world combat. If you don’t understand what I mean, feel free to ask. But don’t try to assume something that isn’t true.

Killing “upscaled newbs” as you put it, isn’t even intressting, I for the most part simply wave to them if they are solo. Unless they have annoyed me in some part. I’m doing wvw for the long fights with skilled players (with full gear). In an open world pvp environment. If you enjoy stomping “upscaled newbs” then that’s your enjoyment. I don’t share it, so don’t assume it please.

I also never asked to remove downed state, I simply stated that something should be done about it.

Removal of downed state would drastically change play of wvw, how would you rez a keep lord after pushing a zerg out of the keep, but yet one person above suggested the removal of rezzing killed players. (keep lords are npc players but players still) Rezzing a downed player also takes a while so that person rezzing is a sitting duck.

Rezzing in a downed state can be done very fast unless that person is trying to be rezzed through a swarm of aoe’s! I think the downed state is actually very balanced for play in wvw.

After leaving Rift which over tweeked and over nerfed everything that was complained about before looking at the Big Picture of how tweeks and nerfs can affect playstyle of a game, I would really hate to see that start to happen here. So posts like this wanting change the game to affect a few vs the many really get annoying, because there isn’t consideration for the balance that is already in place.

Dredrum.2563:

Removal of downed state would drastically change play of wvw, how would you rez a keep lord after pushing a zerg out of the keep, but yet one person above suggested the removal of rezzing killed players. (keep lords are npc players but players still) Rezzing a downed player also takes a while so that person rezzing is a sitting duck.

Rezzing in a downed state can be done very fast unless that person is trying to be rezzed through a swarm of aoe’s! I think the downed state is actually very balanced for play in wvw.

After leaving Rift which over tweeked and over nerfed everything that was complained about before looking at the Big Picture of how tweeks and nerfs can affect playstyle of a game, I would really hate to see that start to happen here. So posts like this wanting change the game to affect a few vs the many really get annoying, because there isn’t consideration for the balance that is already in place.

I was going to write a post about comparing GW2 to Rift, but in the end. That’s not what you are stating.

Like I stated, I’ve never said that downed state should be removed, simply that something should be done. It’s quite balanced for large group pvp, I agree on that. It’s however not balanced at all for those who don’t do large scale pvp.

What I’m asking for, is an option. For instance, in gear runes you can a + added bonus to healing someone while in downed state. Which is passive, it’s not a utility or anything. Same that there are some traits that give you bonuses to rezzing someone spread out among the professions.

But we don’t have anything for stopping rezzing for instance, except using cc or utilitys like stated earlier. Or increased help for stomping. Perhaps in a realm rank we could get something for easier stomping.

I’m simply saying that it should still be done something about it, not game breaking.

I wonder where this impression comes from?

I think, in 1v1 its pretty balanced, whoever gets downed first is more likely to die first, except maybe for rangers with their OP #3 skill. If you manage to down someone in 1v1 its not really an issue to also finish him with either bursting down or finishing move since none of the downed skills really gives the possibility to escape, ele vapor form maybe when you down the elementalist near a door to his safe-citadel (at towers/keeps its barely a 1v1 situation anymore due npc guards).

at small scale groups (up to 5) its pretty much the same because you can CC the 5 and finish off your enemy, if you have a person with you that has the ability to use a quickening skill then finishing off someone is not a problem… or be organized enough that not all 5 of you start the finishing move, have 1 do it and the other 4 protect you.

I personally dont really complain about the downed state other than that some classes skills are better than others imo (why can a thief target his teleport location and a mesmer not for example), if there’s any problem with the downed state its in large-scale fights because only in these fights you can get rezzed up quickly either by an enemy dieing or by getting rezzed, reducing the numbers in large scale is really tricky due to downed state, tough in small scale I dont really see an issue here?

Melkiah.2496:

If enemies are trying to ress a downed player just throw a random CC and start stomping right away, you’ll probably finish the enemy before his mate recovers.

If you are afraid of having your stomp interrupted just cast an invulnerability/stability/barrier/whatever right before (or during) the stomp and the enemy will be as good as dead.

If you don’t have any of the above on you skill/utility bar, or you just spam them mindlessly during the combat leaving you off guard when you have to finish of the enemy, you still have to learn how to play in WvW/PvP.

The downed mechanic is a part of this game, so please stop whining about it.

No one is whining.

We paid our money based on the promise that in GW2 you could “play it your way”.

But at the moment, for many reasons including the Downed State, small group play is almost impossible in WvW. Sure you can PvE a camp, but good luck finding another 5-6 man group to test yourself against. A zerg will be arriving in 2 minutes, thank you very much.

Now, it might be that Anet designed WvW to make small group play impossible. Fair enough, but then that is a case of false advertising. And they should come clean and admit it.

False Advertising? Really? Yeah Anet didn’t design an entire 5 v 5 design called spvp for the small scale fighting at all did they? I run solo constantly man there times where I wish I had a 5 man crew to run with but it doesn’t stop me. Keep living up to your sig man.

Cruzyo.7304:

I wonder where this impression comes from?

I think, in 1v1 its pretty balanced, whoever gets downed first is more likely to die first, except maybe for rangers with their OP #3 skill. If you manage to down someone in 1v1 its not really an issue to also finish him with either bursting down or finishing move since none of the downed skills really gives the possibility to escape, ele vapor form maybe when you down the elementalist near a door to his safe-citadel (at towers/keeps its barely a 1v1 situation anymore due npc guards).

at small scale groups (up to 5) its pretty much the same because you can CC the 5 and finish off your enemy, if you have a person with you that has the ability to use a quickening skill then finishing off someone is not a problem… or be organized enough that not all 5 of you start the finishing move, have 1 do it and the other 4 protect you.

I personally dont really complain about the downed state other than that some classes skills are better than others imo (why can a thief target his teleport location and a mesmer not for example), if there’s any problem with the downed state its in large-scale fights because only in these fights you can get rezzed up quickly either by an enemy dieing or by getting rezzed, reducing the numbers in large scale is really tricky due to downed state, tough in small scale I dont really see an issue here?

In small scale, fighting on even terms, 1vs1 – 2vs2 – 3vs3 and so on. Is a luxory far and in between. Normally when fighting in small scale, you face a larger number of opponents. This is where the issue for downed state comes in.

If you fight on even terms, downed state doesn’t matter nearly as much, if at all. So it doesn’t apply there. But the game is far to zergy to expect to have fights on even terms. If we had set groups of five vs five etc in wvw. Like it was in daoc and so on. Then it wouldn’t be a problem. Or the fact that group fights were actually something people enjoyed more and looked down on people who zerged.

On even terms in a perfect world. No, downed state isn’t an issue.

Downed state is annoying, but is not that bad. Rez could be a little slower, just that.

On the other hand, I do think there should be no way to rez a dead player. It would make the zerg strategy way more interesting.

The only thing I dislike about downed state is the fact that someone can use it to scout the oppositions movements during and after a fight. Them actually being in a downed state is fine with me, in fact I farm so many kills by using dead players as bait that I want to keep the downed state.

Sansarah.3076:

This game in wvw is a very unfriendly solo / small scale.

Yes, by design. It is a military style scenario and running around a raging battlefield by yourself with no idea what’s going on is an unfriendly situation and should be.

Sansarah.3076:

Some of us prefer the small scale / solo option.

Then WvW is just not for you. Try fallout 3.

Dredrum.2563:

Find another mmo then, this game thought outside the box and created a game without healers and rezzing class’s. Downed state is a part of this system. You don’t like this system I can’t help you, WvW is not 1 v 1 experience, yes you can find duels I do all the time but they are few and far in between and don’t expect it of my gaming experience. I also don’t expect to change every other players gaming experience to suffice my wants.

Instead they created a game where EVERYONE is a healer and EVERYONE has battlerezzes.

Solo roaming absolutely should be viable and I’m 100% with the OP on this issue. The nature of resurrection and revives doesn’t just impair small scale combat however, it also makes large zerg clashes drag on forever because people are constantly rezzing. Defending keeps is pretty futile because you can’t stop people from resurrection constantly.

However we must differentiate a little between the different problems as mutliple factors play into it:

1. We have downed state
2. We have the speed at which people can revive downed players
3. We have defeated state
4. We have the speed at which people can resurrect defeated players.

Imo the downed state isn’t the big problem, but rather the speed of revives. A normal player can revive quicker than a finisher can channel. If you take the unavoidable interrupt into account then it gets even harder to finish someone while outnumbered.

Then there’s the fact that people can resurrect defeated players, even in the middle of combat. That imo is a broken system and shouldn’t happen. There must be a state in which a player is defeated for good. Resurrecting while in combat should not be possible.

GW2 seems to be a game designed around promoting team play.

In a game designed around promoting team play, it’s not surprising that solo players are at a disadvantage.

ElDudemeister.5108:

Sansarah.3076:

This game in wvw is a very unfriendly solo / small scale.

Yes, by design. It is a military style scenario and running around a raging battlefield by yourself with no idea what’s going on is an unfriendly situation and should be.

Sansarah.3076:

Some of us prefer the small scale / solo option.

Then WvW is just not for you. Try fallout 3.

Military style scenario huh.

Simply because you are few, doesn’t mean you can’t be important. Even in military scenarios.
Wasn’t it Churchill who said something along the line of: “Never was so much owed by so many to so few.”

Don’t count us out because we do small scale tbh.

Dee Jay.2460:

However we must differentiate a little between the different problems as mutliple factors play into it:

1. We have downed state
2. We have the speed at which people can revive downed players
3. We have defeated state
4. We have the speed at which people can resurrect defeated players.

Imo the downed state isn’t the big problem, but rather the speed of revives. A normal player can revive quicker than a finisher can channel. If you take the unavoidable interrupt into account then it gets even harder to finish someone while outnumbered.

Then there’s the fact that people can resurrect defeated players, even in the middle of combat. That imo is a broken system and shouldn’t happen. There must be a state in which a player is defeated for good. Resurrecting while in combat should not be possible.

These are the type of comments most of us prefers, people with opinions and ideas. In this case I agree with Dee Jay, but I’d like to hear some things from the other side as well.

We do not have to resort to flaming simply because we don’t agree on things. I’d much rather get constructive opinions instead, tell me why the heal per second while rezzing couldn’t get lowered for instance, why we couldn’t have some sort of option to get the stomp off easier etc.

Balance the downed abilities.

Slow down the revive to be half as fast as the stomp unless you are spec’d for faster revive.

If you have 2 boons and 2 conditions when you go down you shouldn’t lose them, people used effort and cool downs to get those on you, they shouldn’t just disappear.

Shouldn’t be able to revive a defeated player while in combat, this would create a dynamic were a small force could keep constant pressure to prevent the larger force from just res’sing.

A few suggestions.

Because smaller numbers are supposed to be able to stop larger numbers? There are pletnty of zerg busting videos out there already, this game has a lot of combo affects between class’s , where if built right as a team you can overcome larger numbers already and you don’t need to use a Stomp to finish the opponent! So tweaking downed state can likely offset this more? But no we can’t think about how modifying downed state could effect the larger wvw play. You want a quicker Stomp use a time warp, don’t have a time warp friend a mesmer.

Stomps to me is more about bragging honestly. Spvp it is more vital, in WvW stopping killing to stomp when you can AoE the hordes can very likely be the difference of winning and losing in open field combat. Especially if 4 or 5 players on your side all stop to do the stomp!

Dredrum.2563:

Because smaller numbers are supposed to be able to stop larger numbers?

Well, yes? If a skilled group play well together and use their utility’s well. Why shouldn’t they be able to take out larger numbers? Do you prefer the zerg > skill mentality?

Dredrum.2563:

There are pletnty of zerg busting videos out there already, this game has a lot of combo affects between class’s , where if built right as a team you can overcome larger numbers already and you don’t need to use a Stomp to finish the opponent! So tweaking downed state can likely offset this more? But no we can’t think about how modifying downed state could effect the larger wvw play. You want a quicker Stomp use a time warp, don’t have a time warp friend a mesmer.

Using time warp to stomp, is rather rofl in my opinion, but okey, lets say that you use an elite skill to stomp. You have now used an elite skill for a stomp, hopefully you can still do damage to other players, so it won’t be useless since that could be much more useful in a situation later where you have to put out a lot more damage.

We’ve come back to my point exactly, enforcing a stomp shouldn’t be reliant on having to use an elite / utility skill when rezzing needs neither.

Dredrum.2563:

Stomps to me is more about bragging honestly. Spvp it is more vital, in WvW stopping killing to stomp when you can AoE the hordes can very likely be the difference of winning and losing in open field combat. Especially if 4 or 5 players on your side all stop to do the stomp!

While this is all true and fine in wvw on a larger scale, I can’t see how this would change by allowing some tweaks come into terms on downed state, like extra trait oriented finishers / passive gear functions. I can’t really see how that would ruin your gameplay as a large scale player tbh.

On a smaller scale however, this would do wonders.

Sansarah.3076:

We do not have to resort to flaming simply because we don’t agree on things. I’d much rather get constructive opinions instead, tell me why the heal per second while rezzing couldn’t get lowered for instance, why we couldn’t have some sort of option to get the stomp off easier etc.

I disagree with the original assumption that ANet, or any game maker, has interest in making a game for everyone. I don’t know that I’ve seen the quote that says this, but I don’t know that I need to. To try to make a game for everyone would end up being a game for noone. We all know this. We also know that ANet isn’t even trying, since they are clearly, for example, not interested in making a game for those folks who want fully open world PvP.

In the same vein, I think it’s banging you head against the wall to try to make WvWvW a game for those who want to take their small group against any large group and let their “skill” be the decider. WvWvW just isn’t intended to be that way, and to try to make it otherwise would severely destabilize the system. Additionally, if raw numbers does not end up providing protection, then we would have PvP in one of the two forms it tends to have in other games. 1. A specific small subset of players who were able to quickly master the necessary skill set to not get slaughtered. 2. A focus on using success mechanics that involve avoiding enemies as much as possible.

I won’t utter the phrases that I know you want to hear. But I would like to see one of these threads pop up where the suggestions are not detrimental who the players who are already in the game enjoying the way the mechanic/design works. I get that you’re not having the fun you want. But a number of people are having fun with the way things are. It’s the burden of the person suggesting change to account for that.

Time warp was just a blatant example of how another class can combo to speed up a stomp then you add your want to trait or potion a faster stomp, next thing you know you have players building builds around stomping to combo into zerg rushes with a designated stomper. You are talking about small change to fix YOUR play but don’t look at the big picture of OUR play.

Sansarah.3076:

While this is all true and fine in wvw on a larger scale, I can’t see how this would change by allowing some tweaks come into terms on downed state, like extra trait oriented finishers / passive gear functions. I can’t really see how that would ruin your gameplay as a large scale player tbh.

On a smaller scale however, this would do wonders.

Seems you tried to address this from my perspective already… But the answer is twofold:

#1, As I implied above, yes zerg should always be > skill, for some size of zerg. Otherwise, within 2 weeks, all there will be will be small, highly skilled groups. Nice for you, but terrible for the rest of us who aren’t trying to play open field PvP, but are trying to play this cap&hold siege game. I get annoyed, as is, when I get open field ganked on my way from one place to another. But I understand that its my fault for travelling solo. If you take strength in numbers away, then I and the others like me just stop bothering. For most people who make suggestion like you do, that’s OK with them, because they think I don’t deserve to be in WvWvW and I should L2P, etc… I hope that this kind of sneering mentality isn’t behind your perspective.

#2, Any of these suggestions so far, would quickly become adopted by large scale as well as small scale, and would become necessary features. Not interested in adding more mandatory trait sets, etc…

Dredrum.2563:

Time warp was just a blatant example of how another class can combo to speed up a stomp then you add your want to trait or potion a faster stomp, next thing you know you have players building builds around stomping to combo into zerg rushes with a designated stomper. You are talking about small change to fix YOUR play but don’t look at the big picture of OUR play.

Would something like having a designated stomper, ruin your gameplay? It’s the same as having a designated rez healer isn’t it?

Something like that shouldn’t honestly hurt you if you play in large scale pvp? If it does, please enlighten me.

And yes, it’s a huge change for my gameplay. But having someone speccing for stomping, shouldn’t really be effecting you at all if you play on large scale.

Defeated players should get automatic ports back to spawn point. It’s redicilious a player can be defeated but reenter the battle so quickly, stay there spying, or wall/door resurrected. What’s the point of winning a fight if the opponent can be brought back up from defeated ?

The changes that have came to WvW mostly have aided the Zerg groups. Port back to spawn on defeated would help balance small/individual vs the many.

Heck I would even support a timer on the defeated state before the straight ride back to spawn as a compromise.

The problem is not that you can be downed. The problem is that you can be rezzed after a kill. If you beat one of three people you’re fighting before you die, it’s as of you beat no one at all, and that is massively frustrating. Your reward for victory against odds should be the fact that you put one of your opponents out of the fight for good, at least until he runs back. Same deal with zergs – a smaller force will never win permenantly against a zerg, ever, because of rezzing. If you couldn’t rez, then there would be the opportunity for a Pyrrhic victory for the winning zerg, or one that was so costly that they couldn’t continue.

THAT is the WvW I want.

foofad.5162:

If you couldn’t rez, then there would be the opportunity for a Pyrrhic victory for the winning zerg, or one that was so costly that they couldn’t continue.

THAT is the WvW I want.

The thing about the Pyrrhic victory was that it was so demoralizing that they never came back. Understand that when you get your Pyrrhic victory, it won’t be that everyone will come back tomorrow. Its that they will think “crap, I’m never going to get skilled enough to make a contribution and not get wiped. Screw this, I’m going to go PvE.” So…. yeah… You’ll get what you want, once. And then you’ll be competing with the other small teams. Good for you… But if you want me to treat your suggestions with respect, try to make suggestions that don’t logically end up with me and those like me not having fun.

This was probably stated but…

PLEASE get rid of mob rally. (I’d even argue get rid of rally from kill totally!)
No rez from Defeated state.
Force respawn with a timer when defeated.
Homogonize downed state abilities.
Make rezzing MUCH slower.

Or you could just get rid of the whole kitten thing!

JaironKalach.4938:

Seems you tried to address this from my perspective already… But the answer is twofold:

#1, As I implied above, yes zerg should always be > skill, for some size of zerg. Otherwise, within 2 weeks, all there will be will be small, highly skilled groups. Nice for you, but terrible for the rest of us who aren’t trying to play open field PvP, but are trying to play this cap&hold siege game. I get annoyed, as is, when I get open field ganked on my way from one place to another. But I understand that its my fault for travelling solo. If you take strength in numbers away, then I and the others like me just stop bothering. For most people who make suggestion like you do, that’s OK with them, because they think I don’t deserve to be in WvWvW and I should L2P, etc… I hope that this kind of sneering mentality isn’t behind your perspective.

#2, Any of these suggestions so far, would quickly become adopted by large scale as well as small scale, and would become necessary features. Not interested in adding more mandatory trait sets, etc…

1# Now comes the point of seeing from a perspective, here is my view. If people can coordinate together and use their combo’s/utility’s/Elite skills to an advantage, I would like this to be rewarded. Not shut down.

This is where skill comes in and my point, if say two people that play coordinated on a voicecom in a group facing four random players following eachother but have no real team play. Shouldn’t these two players have a chance to win against those four if they outperform them? (Again, not gear. Skill)

In my opinion, yes they should. For me, that is what is fun in pvp. To win against odds you didn’t think you could manage.

For instance, if you / your leader leads a group of 15-30 people of oriented pvpers, shouldn’t they be able to beat a larger amount of players if they had the skill/timing/chance/ability for it? I think they should.

I’m sorry, I’m having a hard time seeing this perfectly from your point of view. Skill should be awarded, like, if you face two opponents running to your friends, you are saying that in no way at all, should you be able to beat them?

2# These would be optional features, like every other out there. Not mandatory, I’m simply asking for a chance to choose it. At least to be able to choose it. If I could have my way the entire game of wvw would be different, but that won’t happen.

JaironKalach.4938:

The thing about the Pyrrhic victory was that it was so demoralizing that they never came back. Understand that when you get your Pyrrhic victory, it won’t be that everyone will come back tomorrow. Its that they will think “crap, I’m never going to get skilled enough to make a contribution and not get wiped. Screw this, I’m going to go PvE.” So…. yeah… You’ll get what you want, once. And then you’ll be competing with the other small teams. Good for you… But if you want me to treat your suggestions with respect, try to make suggestions that don’t logically end up with me and those like me not having fun.

I’m wondering btw, what difference does it make for you? If downed state had a smaller timer, less healing etc. Wouldn’t you still be able to play the exact same way you do now.. ?

You are saying that it’s the demoralizing aspect of getting killed like this, but wouldn’t the same thing apply to you when you manage to handle odds that you didn’t think you could beat?

I’m simply trying to understand you playstyle. What is fun for you?

@Sansarah you ask would a designated stomper ruin your gameplay? On a large scale where you have 40+ yes because it would completely eradicate downed state and there for be a waste to even have downed state in the game. Whcih many of us that don’t play wvw on a small scale think is balanced and enjoy as is, but you who don’t want to spvp want to change wvw to spvp. This post is about you not us. Yes i have a problem with that.

Sansarah.3076:

1# Now comes the point of seeing from a perspective, here is my view. If people can coordinate together and use their combo’s/utility’s/Elite skills to an advantage, I would like this to be rewarded. Not shut down.

This is where skill comes in and my point, if say two people that play coordinated on a voicecom in a group facing four random players following eachother but have no real team play. Shouldn’t these two players have a chance to win against those four if they outperform them? (Again, not gear. Skill)

In my opinion, yes they should. For me, that is what is fun in pvp. To win against odds you didn’t think you could manage.

For instance, if you / your leader leads a group of 15-30 people of oriented pvpers, shouldn’t they be able to beat a larger amount of players if they had the skill/timing/chance/ability for it? I think they should.

I’m sorry, I’m having a hard time seeing this perfectly from your point of view. Skill should be awarded, like, if you face two opponents running to your friends, you are saying that in no way at all, should you be able to beat them?

So, now we get into a numbers game…. Yes, I believe that skill should be able to beat numbers….. up to a certain point. In fact, based on what I’ve seen, this game already provides for that. We’ve seen plenty of videos, etc, of zerg busting. But there has to be a cap, at some point. 1 shouldn’t beat 10, even if that 1 is the top pvper, in the world. I’m not willing to make such bold statements about many other numbers. There’s definitely a gray area there. But there should always be a safe point, as I’ve said above. Because if there isn’t a safe point based on numbers, those of us who aren’t primarily interested in open field PvP become excluded. Really that last sentence is the key. If you don’t get what I’m saying there, then that’s what we should be talking about.

JaironKalach.4938:

So, now we get into a numbers game…. Yes, I believe that skill should be able to beat numbers….. up to a certain point. In fact, based on what I’ve seen, this game already provides for that. We’ve seen plenty of videos, etc, of zerg busting. But there has to be a cap, at some point. 1 shouldn’t beat 10, even if that 1 is the top pvper, in the world. I’m not willing to make such bold statements about many other numbers. There’s definitely a gray area there. But there should always be a safe point, as I’ve said above. Because if there isn’t a safe point based on numbers, those of us who aren’t primarily interested in open field PvP become excluded. Really that last sentence is the key. If you don’t get what I’m saying there, then that’s what we should be talking about.

Don’t worry, those of us who are interested in open field pvp are already excluded.

Well the game should be for everyone, so can’t you please explain it a bit more then so I do get what you are saying.

Taking on ten people for instance while you play a class that is highly mobile. While only one or two people of those ten people have high mobility, shouldn’t you be able to kill those two then if you can?

Sansarah.3076:

I’m simply trying to understand you playstyle. What is fun for you?

I enjoy strategy/tactics > fighting skill. I enjoy holding out against a challenge, I do. But not in open field, or non strategic points. During one tower siege, as a defender, all I did was lob cows out into the field and destroy enemy placements with a treb. It was minor, but I was able to contribute to the larger goal of holding the tower. However, I understand that if I was out in the open field, I would have died. At times, I’ve just run supply to repair walls. Again, I’m cool with that. I enjoy contributing to the larger strategic goals. The problem I have is that if gank squads are given too much power over zergs, then there’s no way for a guy like me to get where he needs to be, in order to be useful.

I believe that there are a lot more folks like me in WvWvW, than there are of you. We will never become skilled in open field PvP. Will are not necessarily skilled tactically, or strategically. But we are willing, and we want to make a contribution. It is not enjoyable, in any way, for you to farm us. If we get to a place where every time we leave spawn, we are likely to get farmed, we just will stop contributing our bags. I understand that this makes me a “casual” or a “baddie,” etc… But I believe that WvWvW was intentionally built to allow me to contribute.

Dredrum.2563:

@Sansarah you ask would a designated stomper ruin your gameplay? On a large scale where you have 40+ yes because it would completely eradicate downed state and there for be a waste to even have downed state in the game. Whcih many of us that don’t play wvw on a small scale think is balanced and enjoy as is, but you who don’t want to spvp want to change wvw to spvp. This post is about you not us. Yes i have a problem with that.

Do explain how it would completely eradicate downed state please.

Heightend Stomp build combo’d with other class skills time warp whatev which you will have plenty of in LARGE scale fights would make for being able stomp multiple players in less then a second, so on large scale a speed stomping class would clean up the field for the zerg making the downed state nul and void and at which point shouldn’t be in the game if it will be completely null. You think small I am thinking BIG. I think downed is balance for large scale you want to tweak it for you. Just like I mentioned earlier on rifts over tweaking ruining the game for me. You are pushing to tweak without looking at the big picture.

JaironKalach.4938:

Sansarah.3076:

I’m simply trying to understand you playstyle. What is fun for you?

I enjoy strategy/tactics > fighting skill. I enjoy holding out against a challenge, I do. But not in open field, or non strategic points. During one tower siege, as a defender, all I did was lob cows out into the field and destroy enemy placements with a treb. It was minor, but I was able to contribute to the larger goal of holding the tower. However, I understand that if I was out in the open field, I would have died. At times, I’ve just run supply to repair walls. Again, I’m cool with that. I enjoy contributing to the larger strategic goals. The problem I have is that if gank squads are given too much power over zergs, then there’s no way for a guy like me to get where he needs to be, in order to be useful.

I believe that there are a lot more folks like me in WvWvW, than there are of you. We will never become skilled in open field PvP. Will are not necessarily skilled tactically, or strategically. But we are willing, and we want to make a contribution. It is not enjoyable, in any way, for you to farm us. If we get to a place where every time we leave spawn, we are likely to get farmed, we just will stop contributing our bags. I understand that this makes me a “casual” or a “baddie,” etc… But I believe that WvWvW was intentionally built to allow me to contribute.

I don’t think those who want small group challenges are proposing an either/or situation.

There has to be a solution that allows zerg play for those who want, and small group confrontations for others.

The problem now is that the zerg play overwhelms everything, driving out all other forms of play. You either join the zerg, or get stomped by the zerg.

PvE has various levels of challenges for those who desire them, from easy landscape mobs to the Fractals. There is no reason WvW can’t have the same.

Sansarah.3076:

Don’t worry, those of us who are interested in open field pvp are already excluded.

This, I believe, is the crux of the problem. Honestly, I wish they would add a place that specifcally supports open field pvp. A fifth map with absolutely no objectives, where it’s kill counts that contribute to the world score, and they can provide environmental effects to ensure that it’s balanced to favor skill.

Well the game should be for everyone, so can’t you please explain it a bit more then so I do get what you are saying.

It should be for lots, but not everyone. Honestly, I think they already have their attention too diluted with what they are trying to balance. At some point you have to do some things really well, and let other things drop.

But… I’m not getting done with the conversation.

Taking on ten people for instance while you play a class that is highly mobile. While only one or two people of those ten people have high mobility, shouldn’t you be able to kill those two then if you can?

I don’t have any belief system that says that that is inherently necessary. In fact, based on what I’ve said above, I think my answer is no. In other games, you wouldn’t have bothered, because 3 of them would have been able to cross-heal against any possible damage you could provide. In this game, there’s the res mechanic. In either case, it doesn’t bother me that everyone should be able to be essentially invulnerable to a significantly smaller group. Though I don’t know that I care to try to define “significantly smaller.”

Thrumdi.9216:

The problem now is that the zerg play overwhelms everything, driving out all other forms of play. You either join the zerg, or get stomped by the zerg.

PvE has various levels of challenges for those who desire them, from easy landscape mobs to the Fractals. There is no reason WvW can’t have the same.

I agree that this is a problem. It’s something I would like to see solved. The problem I have is that almost all of the solutions I see proposed are centered around universal mechanics that support zerg busting. They would not create multiple levels of challenge. They would raise the bar too high across the board, so that unless you were part of a skilled team, you couldn’t survive long enough.

JaironKalach.4938:

Sansarah.3076:

I’m simply trying to understand you playstyle. What is fun for you?

I enjoy strategy/tactics > fighting skill. I enjoy holding out against a challenge, I do. But not in open field, or non strategic points. During one tower siege, as a defender, all I did was lob cows out into the field and destroy enemy placements with a treb. It was minor, but I was able to contribute to the larger goal of holding the tower. However, I understand that if I was out in the open field, I would have died. At times, I’ve just run supply to repair walls. Again, I’m cool with that. I enjoy contributing to the larger strategic goals. The problem I have is that if gank squads are given too much power over zergs, then there’s no way for a guy like me to get where he needs to be, in order to be useful.

I believe that there are a lot more folks like me in WvWvW, than there are of you. We will never become skilled in open field PvP. Will are not necessarily skilled tactically, or strategically. But we are willing, and we want to make a contribution. It is not enjoyable, in any way, for you to farm us. If we get to a place where every time we leave spawn, we are likely to get farmed, we just will stop contributing our bags. I understand that this makes me a “casual” or a “baddie,” etc… But I believe that WvWvW was intentionally built to allow me to contribute.

Do tell me if I’m wrong, but strategy/tactics is a form of skill mate. Those exact skills are what open field pvpers use, quite a lot.

Anyways, I still don’t understand how an extra choice to downed state in expense for something else would effect you as a player tbh.

As a side note, yes it’s very important that players like you exist, I’m not saying anything otherwise. But it’s equal important that people like I exist. We both fulfill roles that are needed on the battlefield, for instance, having someone like me watching your back while you run towards an establishment or quite simply, me taking out the opposing team shooting treb shots at you.

We are both needed as players.

Dredrum.2563:

Heightend Stomp build combo’d with other class skills time warp whatev which you will have plenty of in LARGE scale fights would make for being able stomp multiple players in less then a second, so on large scale a speed stomping class would clean up the field for the zerg making the downed state nul and void and at which point shouldn’t be in the game if it will be completely null. You think small I am thinking BIG. I think downed is balance for large scale you want to tweak it for you. Just like I mentioned earlier on rifts over tweaking ruining the game for me. You are pushing to tweak without looking at the big picture.

Wow, you really cannot write a non insulting post, can you?

Anyways, how is that different from how it is now, if you get downed so much at a larger scale of pvp that this would actually matter, the difference would be the same, I’ve seen zergs get demolished in seconds, people running to rez, only having the opposing team turn around doing the same thing all over, zerg dead, case closed.

I’ve seen it time and time again, people running to rez in large scale only to get zerged by the opposing teams, if you think this would be different if one or two guys gave up something for a bit of a faster/easier stomp, no I don’t agree with you.

The changes I’m talking about are minimal but well needed for small scale, I highly doubt it would change for you that much.

If you are thinking of changes like aoe stomp / insta stomping / dead without downed state etc. Then sure, I can see your point.