Guild Wars 2

Sansarah.3076:

ElDudemeister.5108:

Sansarah.3076:

This game in wvw is a very unfriendly solo / small scale.

Yes, by design. It is a military style scenario and running around a raging battlefield by yourself with no idea what’s going on is an unfriendly situation and should be.

Sansarah.3076:

Some of us prefer the small scale / solo option.

Then WvW is just not for you. Try fallout 3.

Military style scenario huh.

Simply because you are few, doesn’t mean you can’t be important. Even in military scenarios.
Wasn’t it Churchill who said something along the line of: “Never was so much owed by so many to so few.”

Don’t count us out because we do small scale tbh.

This is a mis-interpretation. The military, while large, still represents a small portion of the population. And, in general, famous quotes always deal with the amount of dead or sacrifices for victory. So, the amount of people who died is few compared to the many who lived. Churchill wasn’t saying…Thank the gods for the 3 and 4 man solo teams we had fighting.

WvW is large scale, sorry you don’t prefer it. Please stop making threads about it and just whine on the 1000000000 other threads already created on this topic. Thank you.

OP, I get where you’re coming from, I really do. There’s been many occasion when I’ve got a couple of people into a downed state and then they’ve been rezed by a few more entering the fray and then got away, with me shaking my fist as my ultra slow Mesmer struggles to chase them down.

But as I’ve always understood it, if I haven’t managed to overcome an enemies downed state then I haven’t ‘won’ anything. Downed state is just another part of my enemy’s life. I still need to actually kill them before I can fist pump and /dance. I need to strategise ways to overcome an enemy’s downed state quickly or take advantage of it in some way. It means my builds and skill choices aren’t just centered around how quickly I can burst an enemy to death before moving onto the next, but also how well I can secure those kills too. I just find it to be a much more interesting way to have to play personally. I kind of like having to work harder for my kills.

Edit: The only thing I do dislike about the downed state is the disparity between classes. The Engineer downed state is just rubbish compared to say the Thief or the Mesmer. Are some classes supposed to have better downed skills than others?

Simonoly.4352:

OP, I get where you’re coming from, I really do. There’s been many occasion when I’ve got a couple of people into a downed state and then they’ve been rezed by a few more entering the fray and then got away, with me shaking my fist as my ultra slow Mesmer struggles to chase them down.

But as I’ve always understood it, if I haven’t managed to overcome an enemies downed state then I haven’t ‘won’ anything. Downed state is just another part of my enemy’s life. I still need to actually kill them before I can fist pump and /dance. I need to strategise ways to overcome an enemy’s downed state quickly or take advantage of it in some way. It means my builds and skill choices aren’t just centered around how quickly I can burst an enemy to death before moving onto the next, but also how well I can secure those kills too. I just find it to be a much more interesting way to have to play personally. I kind of like having to work harder for my kills.

The true heart of the complaint, imo. People want it easy.

Sabu.9804:

Sansarah.3076:

ElDudemeister.5108:

Sansarah.3076:

This game in wvw is a very unfriendly solo / small scale.

Yes, by design. It is a military style scenario and running around a raging battlefield by yourself with no idea what’s going on is an unfriendly situation and should be.

Sansarah.3076:

Some of us prefer the small scale / solo option.

Then WvW is just not for you. Try fallout 3.

Military style scenario huh.

Simply because you are few, doesn’t mean you can’t be important. Even in military scenarios.
Wasn’t it Churchill who said something along the line of: “Never was so much owed by so many to so few.”

Don’t count us out because we do small scale tbh.

This is a mis-interpretation. The military, while large, still represents a small portion of the population. And, in general, famous quotes always deal with the amount of dead or sacrifices for victory. So, the amount of people who died is few compared to the many who lived. Churchill wasn’t saying…Thank the gods for the 3 and 4 man solo teams we had fighting.

WvW is large scale, sorry you don’t prefer it. Please stop making threads about it and just whine on the 1000000000 other threads already created on this topic. Thank you.

I would prefer to keep this nice and open for discussion, sorry you don’t feel the same way.

What Churchill could have said though:
-Thank the gods for those four people intercepting the power orb before they got it into the keep!
-Thank the gods for those four people hiding a mesmer inside the keep so we could get inside!
-Thank the gods for those four people rushing into the lord room to keep it from getting captured so we could get there in time!
-Thank the gods for those four people trebbing the wall for us for easy access!

etc. etc.

I didn’t read this whole thread, so someone might have mentioned this in the second half, but they should just make rez only useable out of combat. That way once an engagement is over the winning side can get their fallen up, but it would stop the majority of the never ending fights where everyone gets rezed within 3 or 4 seconds of being downed.

Dokyo.3685:

I didn’t read this whole thread, so someone might have mentioned this in the second half, but they should just make rez only useable out of combat. That way once an engagement is over the winning side can get their fallen up, but it would stop the majority of the never ending fights where everyone gets rezed within 3 or 4 seconds of being downed.

this is the only good idea i have ever heard on this topic. would also remind me of history where both sides would go collect their dead and wounded…

…until some thief ruins it…lol

But saying “Man down!” is cooler than “Man dead!”.

Slow down the rez and remove the random rallies. Player should have to actively be hitting a target to rally off them – no random rallies because someone died on the other side of the sPVP map.

This topic is soo dumb. You need to get better at double downing people. Downed State adds another layer of complexity to PvP in this game which is awesome and something that needs to stay in a non-trinity MMORPG.

sPvP map? :P

The main thing I find annoying is that people don’t state why it should stay the same, what is so good about the current downed state?

Sansarah.3076:

sPvP map? :P

The main thing I find annoying is that people don’t state why it should stay the same, what is so good about the current downed state?

Down state in general? I answered this question in my earlier post(s). It creates a small control point that must be fought over and that livens up the battlefield compared to other MMO’s.

Or are you asking about the “current” down state? The current implementation of down state (down state initial health, rez speed, etc.) can change, I would get used to any changes in time.

I’ve seen a few people mention that an ally can get someone up faster than you can stomp them…to my knowledge, that’s only the first time they go down. After they go down again, due to the downed state penalty, you have enough time to do the stomp even if their ally is reviving the whole time.

Sansarah.3076:

sPvP map? :P

The main thing I find annoying is that people don’t state why it should stay the same, what is so good about the current downed state?

I think I’ve stated this, but maybe only implied it. I believe that the current implementation of the down state is one of the things that keeps 5 man zerg hunting squads from spending their days roaming WvWvW killing “undesirable casuals” and sending them crying out of WvWvW.

Sansarah.3076:

This game in wvw is a very unfriendly solo / small scale. As soon as you meet larger numbers, you suffer on a quite high scale, regardless of your skill as a player. Don’t forget that some of us do not want to play in a zerg. Some of us prefer the small scale / solo option.

I’ve been a soloer since betas, yet I find downed stated quite challenging and fun, let me tell you an advice if you want to suggest a mechaninc change do not generalize for every soloer out there pls :P, if you have an opinion share it but don’t make it any bigger than what it is oh and downed state is an obstacle for smalls grps AND zergs, just search on the forums and you will find a lot of complains

Art.9820:

I’ve been a soloer since betas, yet I find downed stated quite challenging and fun, let me tell you an advice if you want to suggest a mechaninc change do not generalize for every soloer out there pls :P, if you have an opinion share it but don’t make it any bigger than what it is oh and downed state is an obstacle for smalls grps AND zergs, just search on the forums and you will find a lot of complains

Well I’ll be, never thought I’d see the day of a solo’er enjoying the downed state mechanic. In that case, I’m sorry for speaking for you in general, I have never met a harcore solo’er who enjoys this mechanic in wvw.
I’ve been talking with quite a lot of players about it who plays solo and nobody so far has said anything different or even raised their voice that I was completly wrong with my views.

So do please enlighten me on your views about it. I’m quite intregued on hearing your side of it all.
What class etc do you play and setup do you use?
Who are your normal opponents?
Do you usually do 1vs1’s only or 1vsX?
Can you describe the reason you enjoy it, does it add extra flavor or something for the competition?

Xsorus.2507:

Giving everyone In combat Res was always a bad decision…

Even in Games like DAOC were you could keep ressing in combat, they gave you a massive penalty for being ressed…..

They also didn’t let any random person do it either..

Things like Downstate, AoE Caps, Nerfs to AoE damage, Narrow Maps is why you have such a prevalence of zergs in this game

Its also why 10+ year old games like DAOC are still superior vastly to the crap released today.

This. I think most of the pro-DS posters never played DAOC or warhammer and simply don’t realise how detrimental DS really is on solo/group/zerg dynamics.

It should be hard, but possible, for a group to take down a zerg, else WVW will be nothing but zerg. The game would be better, and more fun, if GvG combat existed alongside ZvZ.

Current DS mechanics heavily favour zerging and that’s why DS should be changed. It shouldn’t be possible for 2 people to rez someone faster than they can be damaged down and while in the middle of fire and arrows raining down. That’s ridiculous.

ThaOwner.7560:

news flash, wvw is not a solo gametype

says who? solo should be as viable as group and zerg.

I don’t think the downed state is really the problem IMO. Rally is the problem get rid of it or change rally to a small set number of hit points per rally. So it will be nearly impossible for 1 death to rez an entire zerg.

Vilkata.4725:

OP, I think one of the problems is that you’re viewing a downed player as “defeated” and being upset that the defeat is being taken away from you if they get up. A player isn’t dead until they’re dead, if all you do is get them to downed then you haven’t won yet. That’s like taking a thief down to 50% HP and then getting upset that they were able to use their utilities to escape the fight. Downed is part of the game and you need to plan for it if you expect to win in a tough fight.

Why then not just give people more HP then? Why is combat in your last 15% HP (ie: DS) different from the combat for your other 85% HP?

The core question is: is the combat in DS as good as or better than the combat while you’re standing? Clearly, it isn’t, and if it isn’t, what is the purpose of it?

Not to mention ridiculous things like rallying off random mobs around you while downed.

Speaking of “play at your way” .. I love down state… It more fun and creative way to find a way to kill them.. So let me play at my way do not change a thing.. Thank

I feel that downed state is fine.

1v1 it’s not an issue
1v2 it’s just a way to make the 2nd person stop and bend over
1v3 it’s hard to down all 3

I am a trained warrior. I am confident I can best one , I am sure I can stand up to two, and I have my doubts against three or more.

. Done that many time 1v4 … Not easy but fun. Can’t make single mistake using skill and count skill cool down… And I’m not thief.. Just mesm

Sansarah.3076:

I for one, hate the downed state in wvw as a solo player, even if you do win, you loose because people can rez each other so fast and easy.

This game in wvw is a very unfriendly solo / small scale. As soon as you meet larger numbers, you suffer on a quite high scale, regardless of your skill as a player. Don’t forget that some of us do not want to play in a zerg. Some of us prefer the small scale / solo option.

And no, I do not want to play spvp.

I’ve 1v2 all the time about 50/50 3 meh occasionally but 3v1 I really just harrass and draw out the fight as long as possible just for the exercise and see how far I can kite them around the map sometimes I get the win most times not but you’ll never beat 50 lol downed state wont matter even in 2v1 its just the nature of the game.

Situation awareness. When possible reduce your defense radius by staying close to cliffs, walls, water save your escape cooldowns. Always know where the opposing zerg is and follow from a safe distance picking off stragglers is how I solo in wv3.

Downed state works well. I like it the way it is.

mjharrison.3209:

ThaOwner.7560:

news flash, wvw is not a solo gametype

says who? solo should be as viable as group and zerg.

It is viable its just soloing on a map in a zone called…World vs World vs World kind of eludes to the mass opposing force you run the risk of running in to. Surely you’re not implying people should be able to defeat a zerg of 50+ solo, this ain’t Hollywood and you’re not the star of some B rated martial art movie.

Downed is not the problem. Battle rezzing is.

Just down the player and if you cant get a stomp down that same player again who already has the down penalty each time they have less health.

Down state is fine I wouldn’t want it to be easy. Sometimes you just have to walk away even if you know that in this 1v3 you can clearly spike them all if there was no downstate/rezzing. I wouldn’t want it to be easier to stomp than is omg the complaints then would be so much worse.

“D/D ele kills 5 man group is OP”

insert post that the downstate should have more health etc.

That would most definitely happen.

foofad.5162:

Downed is not the problem. Battle rezzing is.

They’re both a problem IMO, but battle ressing is the larger problem of the two.

I think they really need to add some kind of debuff to people who have been revived, an HP debuff with maybe a stat decrease as well. Same with coming back from being downed.

Right now there is just no way to thin a zerg because everyone gets ressed too fast.

What gets me is when I finally get the guy down and he rally’s off a random bunny…

They removed healing, and the holy trinity because people cried about not having the skill to down healers, or groups with good healers.

Now you’re crying about the downed state. Come on guys, this is embarassing. How much further do you want PvP to be watered down, so you can compete? They already nerf classes in sPvP because people can’t cope with a full fledged class.

For crying out loud go play a first person shooter if MMOs are too hard for you.

I like the downed state and think it adds an interesting layer to the combat. The only thing I would change is remove the ability to res defeated players. I think being able to pick up defeated players anywhere in the field makes battles much less interesting because there is no concept of loss of players. Sure, a small team can attack a zerg and maybe defeat 5, but that doesn’t matter because they are back on their feet seconds after the fight is over. It also trivializes the downed state itself, because even if you fail to rally and die your mates can just pick you up again and continue like nothing happened. Removing the ability to pick up defeated players would make it even more important to save them in the downed state and make the downed state a much more interesting combat element.

To counter taking away the ability of players to res their allies from the defeated state, I would res all allies in the vicinity when a Victory occurs. Upon capturing a castle, keep or tower, that objective would project a healing effect called Victory that would resurrect all nearby allied players. This effect would only last a few seconds at best and then disappear completely afterwards. This could also be used to rally defeated defenders after a successful defense of an objective, but right now there isn’t really a good way to tell when an objective has been successfully defended (the defend timer doesn’t do a good enough job).

Unsurprisingly, the majority of posters who want to keep DS as it is are thieves… because killing someone laying on the ground in front of people while stealthed makes tons of sense… and I play a thief.

As for the poster implying that removal of DS would dumb the PVP down — GW2 is already hands-down the most dumbed-down PVP MMO ever made – they removed healing and made everyone into DPS, added auto-attack, reduced the number of button to press, added a downed state so you have to be killed twice…

Seriously how can you dumb down combat any more than they have? Besides, it’s not working, s/tPVP is a ghost-town.

Downed state is for carebears. Enough said.

Downed state is perfect, don’t change downed state.

Being able to infinitely res from dead is silly and just leads to stalemates, you should have a set number of lives, maybe 3 or 5, and then be forced to waypoint imo.

Sansarah.3076:

Believe me, if there was a proper hardcore world pvp game. A lot of us would go there.

EVE Online

Downed state is a noob-friendly system to keep a decent roamer thief from wiping the floor with 3+ enemy badge farmers. (The excellent ones do it anyway, though)

I don’t want them to remove downed state, but it should be balanced somehow. Currently it gives incridible advantage to the group that already has the upper hand, while giving nothing to the undertaker. In some other thread someone mentioned implementing “revieve sickness”. A condition that would decrease the damage output of a revieved player.

Small scale combat aside I think it is crucial that we get tools for breaking a larger Zerg.

The constant availability of resurrections and revives makes it nigh impossible for your average scrub defender team to do anything effective to stop your average scrub zerg from kicking in the gate.

If single players manage to pick off individuals from an enemy zerg then that should mean something and contribute towards the defense rather than delaying the inevitable by roughly 10 seconds.

jkctmc.8754:

They removed healing, and the holy trinity because people cried about not having the skill to down healers, or groups with good healers.

Now you’re crying about the downed state. Come on guys, this is embarassing. How much further do you want PvP to be watered down, so you can compete? They already nerf classes in sPvP because people can’t cope with a full fledged class.

For crying out loud go play a first person shooter if MMOs are too hard for you.

I’m still laughing that people are crying about an easy mechanic to counter.

I think for downed state in WvW, they just need to remove the “unique” to the profession parts of it. So you’re stuck where you die, you can throw a rock and try to heal up, but that’s it. It’s kinda ironic that the three strongest classes in WvW(thieves, eles, and mesmers) also have the best downed state abilities.

Sansarah.3076:

I for one, hate the downed state in wvw as a solo player, even if you do win, you loose because people can rez each other so fast and easy.

This game in wvw is a very unfriendly solo / small scale. As soon as you meet larger numbers, you suffer on a quite high scale, regardless of your skill as a player. Don’t forget that some of us do not want to play in a zerg. Some of us prefer the small scale / solo option.

And no, I do not want to play spvp.

As your playing an MMO, I would suggest finding a decent guild to play with. If you don’t like guilds np, you can always be really really good at D3.

Oh by all means, let’s change one of the MAIN core mechanics of the game just because some noob can’t properly kill someone, or keep him from reviving. If you want solo combat go to sPVP, WvW is a large scale combat area, if you don’t like that, then leave.

Sansarah.3076:

Art.9820:

I’ve been a soloer since betas, yet I find downed stated quite challenging and fun, let me tell you an advice if you want to suggest a mechaninc change do not generalize for every soloer out there pls :P, if you have an opinion share it but don’t make it any bigger than what it is oh and downed state is an obstacle for smalls grps AND zergs, just search on the forums and you will find a lot of complains

Well I’ll be, never thought I’d see the day of a solo’er enjoying the downed state mechanic. In that case, I’m sorry for speaking for you in general, I have never met a harcore solo’er who enjoys this mechanic in wvw.
I’ve been talking with quite a lot of players about it who plays solo and nobody so far has said anything different or even raised their voice that I was completly wrong with my views.

So do please enlighten me on your views about it. I’m quite intregued on hearing your side of it all.
What class etc do you play and setup do you use?
Who are your normal opponents?
Do you usually do 1vs1’s only or 1vsX?

I’ll answer this from my perspective. I play necromancer and use a power/crit build designed for small skirmishes.
-My normal opponents are thieves, mesmers, eles, and rangers. Warriors less often.
-Sometimes there is a group of 2 or 3 underleveled friends (or 1 80 and 1 underleveled) and they will chase me. If I think they are too much for me to handle and can juke them I will, otherwise I fight and do my best, and I am winning these more and more, but it depends on the opponents really. Recently I had a continuous string of 5 1v1’s in a row (someone else would show up as soon as I killed the last one) that I survived, that felt pretty kitten good.
-I look for 1v1s, but more often it is 1vX, or turns into a small-group skirmish since others from my server will wander by.

Sansarah.3076:

Can you describe the reason you enjoy it, does it add extra flavor or something for the competition?

I’ll repeat what I said earlier in the thread for the benefit of the discussion. I enjoy it because it adds a strategy to fights besides simply using abilities to counter your opponent’s. Someone going down creates a control point on the field that I must now deal with in addition to potentially fighting someone else. Add to that the fact that you are on a “timer” in most 1v2’s – you have to take them out before your reserves of healing/outlasting expire – and the downed state becomes a rather exhilarating mechanic. Can I stomp this person in time? Will he interrupt me? How can I prevent the revive? All important decisions that have to be made in a split-second. It’s a puzzle, it’s a problem, it’s a thrill.

Not many people I wander across are willing to play this game and attempt to interrupt me, but when it does happen it makes the fights even more interesting. A few days ago I went to Plague-Form-stomp someone (shifting into Plague Form doesn’t break the stomp animation, and comes with stability) and the enemy necromancer used Corrupt Boon to turn my stability into Fear. I was so shocked that I couldn’t react in time to stop the revive, and had to book it out of there. Even though my opponent’s play essentially defeated me I was shaking with excitement.

If there was no downed state, I’d be on my thief all the time. Burst the first enemy in the group of 2 or 3 down to dead, stealth, repeat, and move on. Since there’d be no control point minigame to play I’d have a huge advantage.

So from my solo play perspective, downed state is a great thing. It makes it harder for me to 1v2, sure, but I don’t care. I think it makes the game better.

Downed State impacts the different areas of PvP in a different fashion. Only because it works in sPvP or PvE doesn’t mean it’s ok for WvW, at least not without changes.

Downed-State/Revives in my opinion:

PvE: A good mechanism to compensate for the lack of healers. Arguably a bit easy to revive and resurrecting makes a lot of fights almost fail-proof.

With fairer mechanics like bosses not targeting downed-players you could easily get by without allowing resurrections in combat.

tPvP: Downed-state battles are often decisive moments in the outcome of a battle. In fact in many cases if and how you finish someone/revive someone matters more than who killed what, when and where. Rallying places too much importance on the “downed battle” as it can completely tip what was a decisive win.

sPvP: Somewhat of a nuisance especially when dealing with some professions. It just takes tediously long to finish off some classes.

WvW: A big reason why zerg fights drag on forever because nobody ever truly dies. With people constantly reviving and resurrecting it’s nigh impossible to effectively counter zergs without communication.

mjharrison.3209:

ThaOwner.7560:

news flash, wvw is not a solo gametype

says who? solo should be as viable as group and zerg.

The very name (“World vs World vs World”) seems to indicate it’s not really a solo based game.

It’s open world. You make your own way. If you can survive and do well as a small group do that. If you can survive and do well as a solo, do that.

If you try them and cannot survive though, the world is not at fault.

Used to hate it but learned to live with it. Get creative. Add utilities/consumables to help stomp. Slot knockbacks or use a build with some cleave damage so you can hit both a downed person and the rezers at once to punish them. If you are duoing call out who is dps on the downed and who is stomping.

I think the downed stated could be tweaked a bit, but nothing major. Maybe it would be good to reduce the effectiveness of mass ressing in zerg warfare (5 people almost instantly ressing someone up). I think that’s a bit too easy. And I definitely agree that the defeated state should mean defeated and nothing else, and as such it should not be able to revive someone. It would also be good to force a teleport to a waypoint within 10 seconds or so, because dead people should not be able to spy.

As for the issue that there’s almost only the zerg playstyle that is rewarding, and going around solo or with a few people almost or not at all, I think there’s a fairly simple solution without having to make the maps way bigger, or other complicated stuff like that. I think that it’s neccessary for there to be more small scale objectives on the map. I think tweaking the sentries would be good, because right now they hardly matter at all. I believe it would be a nice idea to increase the number of sentries, and transform them into small sentry camps or something like that, having 2-3 NPCs that people can fairly easily solo or beat with a few people. Having capped such a camp should be way more benificial than it is right now, for example it might be a nice idea for sentry camps to spawn NPCs that will head to a certain location to attack larger objectives (camps, towers, etc, this would be the same idea as dollies but being more an offensive thing instead). As such these bigger objectives would become contested more frequently and it’s harder for that big zerg to know where to go exactly, stimulating them to send a few skilled players and focus on the bigger objectives instead.

These are just a few simple ideas, but my main argument is that at the moment there aren’t enough small scale objectives around that matter.