Guild Wars 2

Pretty much the title, after seeing the recent post by Mike. I mean the map is so gorgeous, and if people actually learned it – I think potentially you can have much more fun fights than in Alpine. But then again I think utilising environment like higher ground and all that makes for fun strategic play rather than just zergs bashing into each other . The map really does look like it was designed with gliding in mind , so I guess if that’s not happening than reducing the size would help. Please just address the issue with lowest tier servers, as well those are really a dessert population wise. Also I’m not saying ppl are vein, but rewards wise adding say, a WvW legendary backpack as a long term reward would do miracles for attracting more players .

Potentially assume all three borders queued 24/7.
It doesnt happen. Not even in T1.

If we reduced to WvW to EB and a single DBL it would only be queued because 50 people are afk waiting for EB pop.

Dawdler.8521:

Potentially assume all three borders queued 24/7.
It doesnt happen. Not even in T1.

If we reduced to WvW to EB and a single DBL it would only be queued because 50 people are afk waiting for EB pop.

We had a 90 queue for EBG and no queues on any DBLS for a while.. players only finally went there once they realized they were never going to play again if they didn’t, not because they wanted to.

Going to copy paste my post from the other thread in here.

Farzo.8410:

After some thought, I think removing Desert Borderlands in favour of Alpine Borderlands could be a mistake.

People mainly want Alpine Borderlands because;

1. It’s smaller
2. It’s flatter
3. Not as many “extra events” as the flames and the oasis

Then there’s a lot of nostalgia going around for it too.

Alpine Borderlands is in no way a bad map, but neither truly is Desert Borderlands. What the new borderland needs is some changes in how you can take yourself around the map easier, and making it easier to navigate.

We have a new map, and while it has gotten bad reviews we shouldn’t chase it away. I know people want to chase it away because in the past, we knew ArenaNet didn’t touch WvW for a long, long time, so it’s better to have something we like, and remains unchanged, right?

Well, we have an opportunity here, and I think EVERYONE should get an objective view over this, actually take a thought to it instead of rushing your opinion because of the rushed opinion that went down in the community.

Roll back it all, back to old Alpine Borderlands, or save Desert Borderlands, in hope MO’b & Co tweaks it to a more fitting map?

+1 for Farzo, I agree with what you are saying and I think people should take a more mature, objective stance on this issue. What would you suggest as a way for improving getting around the map easier?

Kastiel.1947:

+1 for Farzo, I agree with what you are saying and I think people should take a more mature, objective stance on this issue. What would you suggest as a way for improving getting around the map easier?

I was thinking about a waypoint somewhere around the oasis area. It doesn’t have to be a large keep around it, but maybe a smaller tower. Though I do know it could take some time to build up.

Otherwise, it would be flatter lands. The main complaint I’ve seen is how vertical it is, and that you are met with ravines or walls everywhere and have to walk around a big chunk of the land to reach your destination. So just a tweak to the land to make it slightly flatter, more places to ascend and descend.

Those are the quick fixes I can think of.

I would rather see the OLD BL back and they should add a layer of polishing on it. I think they should add a some new siege spot to take advantages of the new siege.

I stopped playing in November after playing GW2 almost every night since launch.

- They removed old map that were superior. Those map were better in scale and the navigation was much more fluid. Vast and open map will always be better than corridor. I know why they did canyon and I understand they wanted to reduce the lag by closing the long range view. The new map lack the charm and simplicity of the old one.
- Auto upgrade is horrible. Each server had dedicated peoples that were involved in upgrading and protecting stuff. It might be too late to bring that back.
- I played warrior and they pretty much destroyed it. (I don’t ask top tier. I like mid tier with a good fighting chance again most classes)
- They killed the pretty good balance they had post expansion. (Elite spec were supposed to be balanced to their basic counterpart.)
- Pirate ship meta is horrible. (Stability and movement nerf)

The things they are looking after might tickle me back BUT so far all effort they made left a sour taste in my mouth. (Supposed warr buff as an exemple.)

@Farzo yeah both of those could work. Though technically setting up a wp would be far simpler to implement I think. But not like changing the terrain is something they can’t do with a few competent and dedicated staff members. And I know they have those.
@yanoch whilst I personally don’t agree with rather seeing old BL maps back as I’m not a fan of over simplicity , I can understand your point of view and why some players enjoyed those maps. Best solution I guess would really be to introduce a rotation of maps. But I think that the best way of going about it would be rotate seasonally rather than on a more often basis. Eventually they could add 2 more maps may be , and then each seasonal update would bring its respective map into play. I mean since quarterly updates seems to be their new way of going about things.

I would expect that the plan is not to scrap the DBL — nor should it be. The DBL has a lot of nice touches, minus the PvE, but it has some big problems. Despite its size, one is very limited on where one can go, due to the big drops. Ideally, they could sand it down to accommodate an expectation of smaller groups (it’s largely designed around huge fights (or pvd) at present, which aren’t often happening), and make it so that you’re not constantly at risk of falling to your death (especially within structures), address the automatic waypoint/one keep wp per map issue, and put it into rotation with Alpine.

(Yeah, if they ever came up with one map per season, that’d be fantastic.)

If they want to fix the DBL they have to scrap it. It has so many flaws in it, they can’t fix it and a new map would be faster and better.

I wouldn’t mind it, if they put it on a rotation with EOTM oder making a second EOTM with it. But it has to many flaws for real WvW.

@Ocosh yeah the drops hinder map mobility significantly, but the simplest solution to that would be free basic gliding exclusively in WvW for everyone. Though I’ve heard negative feedback on the matter, I think it would be a great addition and add a new dimension of gameplay. Not sure whether gliding enemies should be targetable or not though. But if they are really resilient to the idea, toning down the verticality of the map would be the best way to go.
Glad you liked the seasonal maps idea , I think that would make WvW so fun – having to fight in different environments and having to account for different factors depending on the map/season would deffinetly spice things up. And if they don’t overcomplicate the new maps with too many additional mechanics (which judging from DBL they shouldn’t ) , it shouldn’t even take too long to design them – granted it will require resource allocation.

I’m sorry but you’re in a minority that like desert bl’s. The guild I run with tried to like desert bl’s, we raided almost exclusively there for awhile, so we really tried. But we watched raid attendance drop over time. People voiced their opinions and stated they simply weren’t having fun fighting gimmicks, chokes, and siege infested keeps. People go in WvW to fight players in a large scale combat. It’s not fun getting your fights disrupted and bothered by cripple fields, rock walls, lava, invis fog, over-tuned & annoying lords, and for the longest time oasis event which now disabled because Anet finally admit they failed us. Point is it was a ridiculous notion for us players to have to endure it for so long.

Everywhere you run it’s canyons & cliffs made smaller by rock walls, chokes at every turn inside keeps where you get rained on by siege and slowed down by chilling fog. Towers have no strategic values and they are so far away, it’s impossible to defend them. Keep lords are so annoying to kill, they’re made even more annoying with iron hide upgrade.

There’s no good flow to how things are designed. Sure the keeps are huge, but there are very little ways for you to maneuver inside them. They’re filled with chokes, lava, cliffs, there aren’t even many good places to put down siege as attackers, and even less good places to have good zerg vs zerg battles. Unlike good ‘ol Bay & Garrison where you had lots of room to regroup, setup siege, de-siege, run flanking attacks, etc.. Or the Hills last stand battle on the bridge and lord room, tons of epic battles happened there. None of those kinds of epic battles were seen in Desert BL’s. We’ve had big fights in fire/air keeps & garrison but none of them compare to the kind of back & forth battles we used to have in bay, hills, and alpine garrison.

The poster above is right in that the desert BL’s are so bad, it would take a lot of work to fix them up. Remember they already gave up on fixing the Oasis event so we have a big huge wasted area in the middle doing absolutely nothing. That’s why it’s probably easier to replace desert with alpine, because alpine’s setup, flow, and design were all sound. The towers had strategic values for both defenders & attackers. Keeps had strategic values and they were fun to fight in, with large courtyards for large battles. You could respond to tower attacks in alpine, you can’t with desert. And there are lots of great open fields for zergs to clash without all the pve gimmicks and things that annoy players.

They would need to revamp the Desert BL’s almost completely to make them fun to play in. And you want them introduce gliding at this point in time when the game mode is in dire condition and needs rescued? Gliding would bring in whole new balance issues and they would need to change a lot of things to prevent exploits and bugs. It’s not something they should even touch right now because it would just add to more issues that’ll need to get fixed later.

Garbage must be chucked in the bin. DBLs are terrible. We don’t need them.

Kastiel.1947:

I think potentially you can have much more fun fights than in Alpine.

By the time we get to a fight…..half the map is gone anyway. What fights you on about? The NPCs in middle?

Use it as a PVE event map.

Yes map looks gorgeous but is better of as a dungeon map. Bay/Hills/Garri paths with a big legendary duck in the middle.

I say what i said in another thread, the problem is not the DBL it self but how they are made. If they were remade to fit our purpose of the game mode then i can live with either or.

The issues with DBL are first and most of all the waypoints in fire and air keep. Why only enemies can use this and not us when we own it, is well to be frank i don’t know any other word to use but stupid. Together with the size of the border makes DBL a bad map. All three keeps are TOO big. I like how they are made, but i don’t like that it takes me like 5 min to move from one side to the other. There are also to many blocking walls all over the map to get were you want to go which makes the map confusing. And add the PvE event in the middle well that is just crap. Why should i have to fight pve mobs to gain such powerful rewards for it.

So if the DBL gets a remake were you scale down the map, scale down the keeps, make the middle and out more accessible (keep the canyons on the outer towards camps and the like). Maybe remake the middle (don’t add back the pve event) and flatten it a bit add more space there for groups to fight each other.
Make towers and keeps more connected to each other so that towers actually matters.

What is good and what i think we can keep are the entries. They are probably the only thing that we are all very happy about. They really make a lot of difference and flipping them is important.
I don’t mind the monuments so much. The stealth to earth is kind of a fun thing, and make all sides wanting to capture them. Airkeep buff is fun and i was thinking it would be to op, but imo it isn’t really since it is easy to capture the monuments.
I like the syntherzisers, and i think we all do tbh.

I am very divided about the Lords. They are quite annoying, but at the same time, this actaully make take overs and fights inside of keeps longer and more interesting. Well not the lord fights, but the fights with the enemies. They have to think about how to make it and in the top tiers this is actually a good thing. It is not always about the biggest zerg will take it. I would probably want to keep the lords as they are, but i believe not all players feel the same about this.

IMO, the biggest problems with DBL:
- Air Keep taking up too much map space and having a confusing layout
- The keep lords have way too much HP and badly-designed abilities (especially the ones at Fire & Air Keep.)
- The waypoint problem
- Unnecessary obstacles throughout the map that serve no purpose other than annoying the player (pulsing cripple around Earth Keep area, the windblowers at Air Keep that launch the player etc.)
- Barriers making it practically unplayable for roamers

Alpine BL had none of these problems.

I don’t mind the canyons and cliffs too much, as long as we get more alternative routes and/or bridges to make them more enjoyable to navigate through.

People have legitimate reasons for avoiding the new maps. The design itself is anti PvP because it forces players to play hide and go seek just by traversing it. With the added CC compounding the stability issues, there are many points on the map that are not conducive to fights due to ledges and chokes. The overload of elevation variation often means pathing and los obstacles as well. The constant falling to get from point A to B, the air turrets, pop up rock walls, barricades and the many narrow winding paths where people have no reason to hang out means players aren’t going to be interacting. The terrain interferes too often to be a good competitive map. It would need massive changes.

The map design is also anti strategy since the objectives are so isolated. The new waypoint rules don’t help either. On alpine BL, some of the most consistent activity came from efforts to break/protect a building waypoint or a northern tower. Being on one map and seeing a Bay or Hills waypoint get contested in another allowed players to scout and mobilize if necessary. Both of those were good rally points for invaders as well. On the new map, they offer little support as one is largely tucked away underground and the other is perched on a cliff surrounded by narrow ledges that offer dicey engagements. They don’t really allow invaders to be a menace so defenders don’t care and for obvious reasons, scouting the map is largely pointless.

And poof, just like that, dead map.

I’m fine if they rotate the maps but the desert BL still needs major work.

As everything in life, there are good and bad sides. I started with voicing for changing DBL. However, I saw the decline in number of players. We had with the alpine BL queues during prime time. Now we have a long queue for eb and empty BL. In my opinion the decline has to be stopped and optimally reversed quickly. Otherwise, WvW will die. Therefore, I switched and now would prefer bringing back the alpine BL. The DBL can in the meantime get adjusted away from the pressure of the player.

gennyt.3428:

People have legitimate reasons for avoiding the new maps. The design itself is anti PvP because it forces players to play hide and go seek just by traversing it. With the added CC compounding the stability issues, there are many points on the map that are not conducive to fights due to ledges and chokes. The overload of elevation variation often means pathing and los obstacles as well. The constant falling to get from point A to B, the air turrets, pop up rock walls, barricades and the many narrow winding paths where people have no reason to hang out means players aren’t going to be interacting. The terrain interferes too often to be a good competitive map. It would need massive changes.

The map design is also anti strategy since the objectives are so isolated. The new waypoint rules don’t help either. On alpine BL, some of the most consistent activity came from efforts to break/protect a building waypoint or a northern tower. Being on one map and seeing a Bay or Hills waypoint get contested in another allowed players to scout and mobilize if necessary. Both of those were good rally points for invaders as well. On the new map, they offer little support as one is largely tucked away underground and the other is perched on a cliff surrounded by narrow ledges that offer dicey engagements. They don’t really allow invaders to be a menace so defenders don’t care and for obvious reasons, scouting the map is largely pointless.

And poof, just like that, dead map.

I’m fine if they rotate the maps but the desert BL still needs major work.

Actually, the maps are PRO-STATEGY if you really look at it. Pinch points, to kill incoming forces, Land Height differences, that allow better siege placement (by that I mean trebs and catas), etc. I mean real war is based on land that HAS 3 dimensions, not just a flat plain with potholes for altitude changes. I mean if altitude didn’t matter in RL wars and battles, then the Golan Heights would not be held by Israel, it is that simple.

The problem with the Alpine BL’s is they didn’t have any of these and just allowed for blob on blob mentality. This is why people do not like the new BL’s they have to think on HOW to do things. The old BL’s promoted blob on blob mentality and that was probably the first mistake done in WvW. The new maps while not perfect (I agree with Air Keep being too big), they at least prevent this incessant use of the blob.

@ Dusty Moon

May I ask how is it pro strategy when there is very little reason to be on the map? And you keep referencing real war as if this isn’t a video game with characters shooting fire and lightning out of wooden sticks.

Dusty Moon.4382:

gennyt.3428:

People have legitimate reasons for avoiding the new maps. The design itself is anti PvP because it forces players to play hide and go seek just by traversing it. With the added CC compounding the stability issues, there are many points on the map that are not conducive to fights due to ledges and chokes. The overload of elevation variation often means pathing and los obstacles as well. The constant falling to get from point A to B, the air turrets, pop up rock walls, barricades and the many narrow winding paths where people have no reason to hang out means players aren’t going to be interacting. The terrain interferes too often to be a good competitive map. It would need massive changes.

The map design is also anti strategy since the objectives are so isolated. The new waypoint rules don’t help either. On alpine BL, some of the most consistent activity came from efforts to break/protect a building waypoint or a northern tower. Being on one map and seeing a Bay or Hills waypoint get contested in another allowed players to scout and mobilize if necessary. Both of those were good rally points for invaders as well. On the new map, they offer little support as one is largely tucked away underground and the other is perched on a cliff surrounded by narrow ledges that offer dicey engagements. They don’t really allow invaders to be a menace so defenders don’t care and for obvious reasons, scouting the map is largely pointless.

And poof, just like that, dead map.

I’m fine if they rotate the maps but the desert BL still needs major work.

Actually, the maps are PRO-STATEGY if you really look at it. Pinch points, to kill incoming forces, Land Height differences, that allow better siege placement (by that I mean trebs and catas), etc. I mean real war is based on land that HAS 3 dimensions, not just a flat plain with potholes for altitude changes. I mean if altitude didn’t matter in RL wars and battles, then the Golan Heights would not be held by Israel, it is that simple.

The problem with the Alpine BL’s is they didn’t have any of these and just allowed for blob on blob mentality. This is why people do not like the new BL’s they have to think on HOW to do things. The old BL’s promoted blob on blob mentality and that was probably the first mistake done in WvW. The new maps while not perfect (I agree with Air Keep being too big), they at least prevent this incessant use of the blob.

Alpine is about a thousand times better for small groups than the deserted bl.

-It wasn’t full of random barriers that prevented you from criss-crossing the map.
-You could capture and upgrade/siege towers and use them to launch your assault on keeps (because they were close enough to threaten them.)
-It wasn’t full of PvE gimmicks that discourage fighting (stealth sandstorms, cripple spam, no falling damage, etc.)

The map might be fun as a dungeon or even as a replacement for eotm but it fails hard as a WvW map.

Somehow, people are really convinced that the ABL were full prior to the expansion. Like… they somehow missed the idea that it was in a steady decline.

The issue is that the HOT expansion took a large chunk of those that normally WvW and redirected them away for a time. This gave the impression that the DBL was empty, especially due to its size. This spiraled out of control in perception. Perception is everything. It was perceived that the DBL was the reason that WvW was dying because people forget that WvW was dying, prior. So people huddled up on EB, because it was safe and comfortable.

Even though the DBL was literally built by the groups that now didn’t support it. Thats right, When the WvW team did the Adopt-a-dev program, people asked for more choke points, more items for smaller groups to take. To break up zergs, something to draw in new players, more tactical maps… The new BL has all that.

Its biggest flaw, and something we didn’t ask for was size and verticality. Part of me feels like, the original intent was also to condense servers (more people per square inch) and leave open the ability to glide at a future date on the new Bl’s. The problem is that didn’t get addressed in time as all of HoT’s resources seemed to go into mainly PvE. I also have to question why, like so many others I know, I really felt like HoT was pushed out the door super fast.

To be honest I really expected to wait till the end of the year and would of gladly waited if some of the things we wanted in WvW had gotten addressed.

You all don’t realize what a huge undertaking building new WvW maps are and my biggest fear is that reverting these maps means very little new things in WvW in the future. Which is scary. I am thinking of the long term here, not the short term gratification of oh the old maps are back look how easy it is again for me.

Fast forward 1 month. The old maps are so boring, I am going to go play some other game.

It would take as much or more effort to go back to the old borderlands as keep the new and update it. Anet have said the plan is to update the DBL to improve movement and combat. Later on they hope to be able to finally get the rotation sorted and produce new borderlands maps.

Puck.9612:

Dusty Moon.4382:

gennyt.3428:

People have legitimate reasons for avoiding the new maps. The design itself is anti PvP because it forces players to play hide and go seek just by traversing it. With the added CC compounding the stability issues, there are many points on the map that are not conducive to fights due to ledges and chokes. The overload of elevation variation often means pathing and los obstacles as well. The constant falling to get from point A to B, the air turrets, pop up rock walls, barricades and the many narrow winding paths where people have no reason to hang out means players aren’t going to be interacting. The terrain interferes too often to be a good competitive map. It would need massive changes.

The map design is also anti strategy since the objectives are so isolated. The new waypoint rules don’t help either. On alpine BL, some of the most consistent activity came from efforts to break/protect a building waypoint or a northern tower. Being on one map and seeing a Bay or Hills waypoint get contested in another allowed players to scout and mobilize if necessary. Both of those were good rally points for invaders as well. On the new map, they offer little support as one is largely tucked away underground and the other is perched on a cliff surrounded by narrow ledges that offer dicey engagements. They don’t really allow invaders to be a menace so defenders don’t care and for obvious reasons, scouting the map is largely pointless.

And poof, just like that, dead map.

I’m fine if they rotate the maps but the desert BL still needs major work.

Actually, the maps are PRO-STATEGY if you really look at it. Pinch points, to kill incoming forces, Land Height differences, that allow better siege placement (by that I mean trebs and catas), etc. I mean real war is based on land that HAS 3 dimensions, not just a flat plain with potholes for altitude changes. I mean if altitude didn’t matter in RL wars and battles, then the Golan Heights would not be held by Israel, it is that simple.

The problem with the Alpine BL’s is they didn’t have any of these and just allowed for blob on blob mentality. This is why people do not like the new BL’s they have to think on HOW to do things. The old BL’s promoted blob on blob mentality and that was probably the first mistake done in WvW. The new maps while not perfect (I agree with Air Keep being too big), they at least prevent this incessant use of the blob.

Alpine is about a thousand times better for small groups than the deserted bl.

-It wasn’t full of random barriers that prevented you from criss-crossing the map.
-You could capture and upgrade/siege towers and use them to launch your assault on keeps (because they were close enough to threaten them.)
-It wasn’t full of PvE gimmicks that discourage fighting (stealth sandstorms, cripple spam, no falling damage, etc.)

The map might be fun as a dungeon or even as a replacement for eotm but it fails hard as a WvW map.

DIsagree. You can easily Ninja keeps if it weren’t for all the Tactivators and high damages needed on walls, gates. I mean I did 4-man a T2 gari before (but no guild had it claimed). It is not hard. Since you obviously haven’t tried it on the new BL, I will disregard your opinion in it.

The DBL’s, as a WvW map, make you actually think more logically and tactically on what to take to make in roads on a BL. In the ABL’s it was BLOB mentality (just as it is in EBG) – just overwhelm and be done with. The chokes were small and could be overwhelmed easily.

There are positives and negatives to both. One needs to take out the MAJOR negatives that cam along with the DBL add I; the Stability nerf, Tactivators (emergency WP’s etc.), Shield Gens, increasing the HP of walls/gates (I mean at T-3 you can not ‘man-mode’ gates anymore), and of course Dragaon and other banners.

A few things people keep forgetting, if they return Alpine it will be updated with the new mechanics like:

* Auto uppgrades
* New Scouts
* New lords and guards
* Tactivators
* Fortified doors

Heck, they’ll probably even include Shrines for the old keeps.

So saying "give us back Alpine" doesn’t mean getting rid of all the new features that a lot of people seem to dislike.

(Personally not against any of those, except Tactivators can go die in the desert!)

---

One note regarding Gliding, it’s main purpose in maps like these are "not dying" from falling down. For that you might as well have a Parachute, not a Glider. Always thought it could be an interesting idea to let non HOT people get a Parachute, that was upgraded to a glider once they got HoT, and the same could be applied to WvW.

Everyone start with a Parachute (perhaps for a first point investment in a WXP line), and if they add Gliding later on, make that a further reward in that line. Alternatively just stick with the Parachute as a way to avoid all the deaths from falling in general. Add on Parachute collapse on hit by ranged attack as well for fun games.

---

Strangely enough, when they described the Desert map first time, I had the image that they where using towers as "gates" to keeps. Like a Keep had 2 entries/doors, and each was defended by a tower, so you had to take that tower first, so you could enter by a pathway to start sieging the keep.

I realized what they where talking about was the blockades, but I kinda liked that idea, that towers served as the entry points to keeps, that you had to tear them down to access the keep, and that you could have tower vs keep sieges, with trying to shut of the other tower entry to restrict supply etc. A proper funneling system for fights, make people gather into specific spots for fighting.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Puck.9612:

Dusty Moon.4382:

gennyt.3428:

People have legitimate reasons for avoiding the new maps. The design itself is anti PvP because it forces players to play hide and go seek just by traversing it. With the added CC compounding the stability issues, there are many points on the map that are not conducive to fights due to ledges and chokes. The overload of elevation variation often means pathing and los obstacles as well. The constant falling to get from point A to B, the air turrets, pop up rock walls, barricades and the many narrow winding paths where people have no reason to hang out means players aren’t going to be interacting. The terrain interferes too often to be a good competitive map. It would need massive changes.

The map design is also anti strategy since the objectives are so isolated. The new waypoint rules don’t help either. On alpine BL, some of the most consistent activity came from efforts to break/protect a building waypoint or a northern tower. Being on one map and seeing a Bay or Hills waypoint get contested in another allowed players to scout and mobilize if necessary. Both of those were good rally points for invaders as well. On the new map, they offer little support as one is largely tucked away underground and the other is perched on a cliff surrounded by narrow ledges that offer dicey engagements. They don’t really allow invaders to be a menace so defenders don’t care and for obvious reasons, scouting the map is largely pointless.

And poof, just like that, dead map.

I’m fine if they rotate the maps but the desert BL still needs major work.

Actually, the maps are PRO-STATEGY if you really look at it. Pinch points, to kill incoming forces, Land Height differences, that allow better siege placement (by that I mean trebs and catas), etc. I mean real war is based on land that HAS 3 dimensions, not just a flat plain with potholes for altitude changes. I mean if altitude didn’t matter in RL wars and battles, then the Golan Heights would not be held by Israel, it is that simple.

The problem with the Alpine BL’s is they didn’t have any of these and just allowed for blob on blob mentality. This is why people do not like the new BL’s they have to think on HOW to do things. The old BL’s promoted blob on blob mentality and that was probably the first mistake done in WvW. The new maps while not perfect (I agree with Air Keep being too big), they at least prevent this incessant use of the blob.

Alpine is about a thousand times better for small groups than the deserted bl.

-It wasn’t full of random barriers that prevented you from criss-crossing the map.
-You could capture and upgrade/siege towers and use them to launch your assault on keeps (because they were close enough to threaten them.)
-It wasn’t full of PvE gimmicks that discourage fighting (stealth sandstorms, cripple spam, no falling damage, etc.)

The map might be fun as a dungeon or even as a replacement for eotm but it fails hard as a WvW map.

DIsagree. You can easily Ninja keeps if it weren’t for all the Tactivators and high damages needed on walls, gates. I mean I did 4-man a T2 gari before (but no guild had it claimed). It is not hard. Since you obviously haven’t tried it on the new BL, I will disregard your opinion in it.

The DBL’s, as a WvW map, make you actually think more logically and tactically on what to take to make in roads on a BL. In the ABL’s it was BLOB mentality (just as it is in EBG) – just overwhelm and be done with. The chokes were small and could be overwhelmed easily.

There are positives and negatives to both. One needs to take out the MAJOR negatives that cam along with the DBL add I; the Stability nerf, Tactivators (emergency WP’s etc.), Shield Gens, increasing the HP of walls/gates (I mean at T-3 you can not ‘man-mode’ gates anymore), and of course Dragaon and other banners.

Don’t assume you know me. I soloed fire keep a couple days after HoT came out. Being able to PvD an empty bl doesn’t make it fun for most people. I gave the deserted bl a chance, and it failed. Roaming fights have completely dried up. The only strategy being used is hop on the empty map and k-train because you no longer have to upgrade keeps to get wp’s so nobody rushes to defend things like they used to.

The alpine map actually promoted fights because upgrades took time and effort. The towers weren’t just out of the way structures that held no value except for PPT. There were choke points you could use if you were smart enough (the entrance to the camps, broken gates/walls, etc.) but there was also open space to have real fights instead of just pirate shipping. The map was just a much better design.

OP meant to say please scrap DBL.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. I’ve been in the new maps. I know how to get around. I’ve tried to like it, but the Desert BL is not fun to play on. Not. fun. at. all.

For all the faults of the Alpine map, I had fund while being on it.

Maybe once they’ve had a chance to revamp the map and bring it back, my opinion could change. But as of right now, I want this horrific map gone.

Puck.9612:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Puck.9612:

Dusty Moon.4382:

gennyt.3428:

People have legitimate reasons for avoiding the new maps. The design itself is anti PvP because it forces players to play hide and go seek just by traversing it. With the added CC compounding the stability issues, there are many points on the map that are not conducive to fights due to ledges and chokes. The overload of elevation variation often means pathing and los obstacles as well. The constant falling to get from point A to B, the air turrets, pop up rock walls, barricades and the many narrow winding paths where people have no reason to hang out means players aren’t going to be interacting. The terrain interferes too often to be a good competitive map. It would need massive changes.

The map design is also anti strategy since the objectives are so isolated. The new waypoint rules don’t help either. On alpine BL, some of the most consistent activity came from efforts to break/protect a building waypoint or a northern tower. Being on one map and seeing a Bay or Hills waypoint get contested in another allowed players to scout and mobilize if necessary. Both of those were good rally points for invaders as well. On the new map, they offer little support as one is largely tucked away underground and the other is perched on a cliff surrounded by narrow ledges that offer dicey engagements. They don’t really allow invaders to be a menace so defenders don’t care and for obvious reasons, scouting the map is largely pointless.

And poof, just like that, dead map.

I’m fine if they rotate the maps but the desert BL still needs major work.

Actually, the maps are PRO-STATEGY if you really look at it. Pinch points, to kill incoming forces, Land Height differences, that allow better siege placement (by that I mean trebs and catas), etc. I mean real war is based on land that HAS 3 dimensions, not just a flat plain with potholes for altitude changes. I mean if altitude didn’t matter in RL wars and battles, then the Golan Heights would not be held by Israel, it is that simple.

The problem with the Alpine BL’s is they didn’t have any of these and just allowed for blob on blob mentality. This is why people do not like the new BL’s they have to think on HOW to do things. The old BL’s promoted blob on blob mentality and that was probably the first mistake done in WvW. The new maps while not perfect (I agree with Air Keep being too big), they at least prevent this incessant use of the blob.

Alpine is about a thousand times better for small groups than the deserted bl.

-It wasn’t full of random barriers that prevented you from criss-crossing the map.
-You could capture and upgrade/siege towers and use them to launch your assault on keeps (because they were close enough to threaten them.)
-It wasn’t full of PvE gimmicks that discourage fighting (stealth sandstorms, cripple spam, no falling damage, etc.)

The map might be fun as a dungeon or even as a replacement for eotm but it fails hard as a WvW map.

DIsagree. You can easily Ninja keeps if it weren’t for all the Tactivators and high damages needed on walls, gates. I mean I did 4-man a T2 gari before (but no guild had it claimed). It is not hard. Since you obviously haven’t tried it on the new BL, I will disregard your opinion in it.

The DBL’s, as a WvW map, make you actually think more logically and tactically on what to take to make in roads on a BL. In the ABL’s it was BLOB mentality (just as it is in EBG) – just overwhelm and be done with. The chokes were small and could be overwhelmed easily.

There are positives and negatives to both. One needs to take out the MAJOR negatives that cam along with the DBL add I; the Stability nerf, Tactivators (emergency WP’s etc.), Shield Gens, increasing the HP of walls/gates (I mean at T-3 you can not ‘man-mode’ gates anymore), and of course Dragaon and other banners.

Don’t assume you know me. I soloed fire keep a couple days after HoT came out. Being able to PvD an empty bl doesn’t make it fun for most people. I gave the deserted bl a chance, and it failed. Roaming fights have completely dried up. The only strategy being used is hop on the empty map and k-train because you no longer have to upgrade keeps to get wp’s so nobody rushes to defend things like they used to.

The alpine map actually promoted fights because upgrades took time and effort. The towers weren’t just out of the way structures that held no value except for PPT. There were choke points you could use if you were smart enough (the entrance to the camps, broken gates/walls, etc.) but there was also open space to have real fights instead of just pirate shipping. The map was just a much better design.

On our Tier – the BL’s aren’t empty, just have roamers, etc because the Blob guilds only play where Blobs can do well (with the PPT mentality) EBG.

The map is fine, it just came out with a bunch of other garbage.

I think for now, reverting to the ABL might actually be wise until the DBL is refined.

I was a big proponent of the DBL for a good 3 months after launch. But the more I began to understand the layout and mechanics of the map, the more I realised how flawed its design actually is compared to the ABL. In particular, there are major structural and pacing issues with the DBL map. The flow of battle is constantly punctuated by unnecessary geographical obstacles that simply isolate players. I’d hear of battles where I’m needed or see orange swords, but by the time I’ve navigated around a few cliff faces and perhaps had to destroy a barricade – all the fun stuff had passed me by.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Puck.9612:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Puck.9612:

Dusty Moon.4382:

gennyt.3428:

People have legitimate reasons for avoiding the new maps. The design itself is anti PvP because it forces players to play hide and go seek just by traversing it. With the added CC compounding the stability issues, there are many points on the map that are not conducive to fights due to ledges and chokes. The overload of elevation variation often means pathing and los obstacles as well. The constant falling to get from point A to B, the air turrets, pop up rock walls, barricades and the many narrow winding paths where people have no reason to hang out means players aren’t going to be interacting. The terrain interferes too often to be a good competitive map. It would need massive changes.

The map design is also anti strategy since the objectives are so isolated. The new waypoint rules don’t help either. On alpine BL, some of the most consistent activity came from efforts to break/protect a building waypoint or a northern tower. Being on one map and seeing a Bay or Hills waypoint get contested in another allowed players to scout and mobilize if necessary. Both of those were good rally points for invaders as well. On the new map, they offer little support as one is largely tucked away underground and the other is perched on a cliff surrounded by narrow ledges that offer dicey engagements. They don’t really allow invaders to be a menace so defenders don’t care and for obvious reasons, scouting the map is largely pointless.

And poof, just like that, dead map.

I’m fine if they rotate the maps but the desert BL still needs major work.

Actually, the maps are PRO-STATEGY if you really look at it. Pinch points, to kill incoming forces, Land Height differences, that allow better siege placement (by that I mean trebs and catas), etc. I mean real war is based on land that HAS 3 dimensions, not just a flat plain with potholes for altitude changes. I mean if altitude didn’t matter in RL wars and battles, then the Golan Heights would not be held by Israel, it is that simple.

The problem with the Alpine BL’s is they didn’t have any of these and just allowed for blob on blob mentality. This is why people do not like the new BL’s they have to think on HOW to do things. The old BL’s promoted blob on blob mentality and that was probably the first mistake done in WvW. The new maps while not perfect (I agree with Air Keep being too big), they at least prevent this incessant use of the blob.

Alpine is about a thousand times better for small groups than the deserted bl.

-It wasn’t full of random barriers that prevented you from criss-crossing the map.
-You could capture and upgrade/siege towers and use them to launch your assault on keeps (because they were close enough to threaten them.)
-It wasn’t full of PvE gimmicks that discourage fighting (stealth sandstorms, cripple spam, no falling damage, etc.)

The map might be fun as a dungeon or even as a replacement for eotm but it fails hard as a WvW map.

DIsagree. You can easily Ninja keeps if it weren’t for all the Tactivators and high damages needed on walls, gates. I mean I did 4-man a T2 gari before (but no guild had it claimed). It is not hard. Since you obviously haven’t tried it on the new BL, I will disregard your opinion in it.

The DBL’s, as a WvW map, make you actually think more logically and tactically on what to take to make in roads on a BL. In the ABL’s it was BLOB mentality (just as it is in EBG) – just overwhelm and be done with. The chokes were small and could be overwhelmed easily.

There are positives and negatives to both. One needs to take out the MAJOR negatives that cam along with the DBL add I; the Stability nerf, Tactivators (emergency WP’s etc.), Shield Gens, increasing the HP of walls/gates (I mean at T-3 you can not ‘man-mode’ gates anymore), and of course Dragaon and other banners.

Don’t assume you know me. I soloed fire keep a couple days after HoT came out. Being able to PvD an empty bl doesn’t make it fun for most people. I gave the deserted bl a chance, and it failed. Roaming fights have completely dried up. The only strategy being used is hop on the empty map and k-train because you no longer have to upgrade keeps to get wp’s so nobody rushes to defend things like they used to.

The alpine map actually promoted fights because upgrades took time and effort. The towers weren’t just out of the way structures that held no value except for PPT. There were choke points you could use if you were smart enough (the entrance to the camps, broken gates/walls, etc.) but there was also open space to have real fights instead of just pirate shipping. The map was just a much better design.

On our Tier – the BL’s aren’t empty, just have roamers, etc because the Blob guilds only play where Blobs can do well (with the PPT mentality) EBG.

The map is fine, it just came out with a bunch of other garbage.

I’m calling bullkitten on that. I’ve hopped around to multiple tiers since the expansion hit, the only roamers I find are now on EBG, unless your idea of roaming are the PvD heroes that jump off cliffs to avoid fighting actual players.

The map is not fine. The map is visually appealing but poorly designed. All the choke points have ended up doing is
-making it so large groups can pass right by each other without ever seeing one another
-funneling small groups right into zergs with no room to escape
-if the stars align and 2 large groups happen to be funneled together you get a boring pirate ship fight because they nerfed stability and increased the hell out of cc.

One thing that happened daily on the alpine map that I have yet to see happen on the deserted map is an epic, several hour long keep fight. The majority of people don’t care to defend, but if there are defenders people won’t bother attacking. They will just move on or map hop because fighting a bunch of siege and annoyingly cc heavy bosses for a structure with no strategic value isn’t worth it, especially when you aren’t taking away the wp they worked hours for.

Bad map is bad.

yanoch.7051:

I would rather see the OLD BL back and they should add a layer of polishing on it. I think they should add a some new siege spot to take advantages of the new siege.

I stopped playing in November after playing GW2 almost every night since launch.

- They removed old map that were superior. Those map were better in scale and the navigation was much more fluid. Vast and open map will always be better than corridor. I know why they did canyon and I understand they wanted to reduce the lag by closing the long range view. The new map lack the charm and simplicity of the old one.
- Auto upgrade is horrible. Each server had dedicated peoples that were involved in upgrading and protecting stuff. It might be too late to bring that back.
- I played warrior and they pretty much destroyed it. (I don’t ask top tier. I like mid tier with a good fighting chance again most classes)
- They killed the pretty good balance they had post expansion. (Elite spec were supposed to be balanced to their basic counterpart.)
- Pirate ship meta is horrible. (Stability and movement nerf)

The things they are looking after might tickle me back BUT so far all effort they made left a sour taste in my mouth. (Supposed warr buff as an exemple.)

All of the above. I used to play small scale several evenings in a week with my guild, but since HoT , I and everyone in my guild have quit the game.

Another very straightforward reason why I dislike DBL is that I do not care even one bit about capturing empty towers/keeps. I simply want to get out in the field and fight. In eternal battlegrounds that’s really easy to do, and in the old borderlands it was too.

In DBL there’s just too much running, a lot of obstacles and no flat terrain. If they want to make Desert borderlands good, they just need to restart from scratch and make a new map with slight verticality, many passages and the same scale as Alpine Border.

On the old map I managed to 3 man all 3 keeps at different points. Unless they are protected you can do the same to the new DBL keeps.

One option to prevent this might be needing a minimum number of enemies near the lord or it goes invulnerable. That would reduce the effect of havoc groups and their game play to some extent.

I doubt if that option would be popular with everyone.

Otherwise I agree with Dusty on this, remove negative guild and borderland effects and replace with something less drastic. Increase mobility while simplifying routes.

Puck.9612:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Puck.9612:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Puck.9612:

Dusty Moon.4382:

gennyt.3428:

People have legitimate reasons for avoiding the new maps. The design itself is anti PvP because it forces players to play hide and go seek just by traversing it. With the added CC compounding the stability issues, there are many points on the map that are not conducive to fights due to ledges and chokes. The overload of elevation variation often means pathing and los obstacles as well. The constant falling to get from point A to B, the air turrets, pop up rock walls, barricades and the many narrow winding paths where people have no reason to hang out means players aren’t going to be interacting. The terrain interferes too often to be a good competitive map. It would need massive changes.

The map design is also anti strategy since the objectives are so isolated. The new waypoint rules don’t help either. On alpine BL, some of the most consistent activity came from efforts to break/protect a building waypoint or a northern tower. Being on one map and seeing a Bay or Hills waypoint get contested in another allowed players to scout and mobilize if necessary. Both of those were good rally points for invaders as well. On the new map, they offer little support as one is largely tucked away underground and the other is perched on a cliff surrounded by narrow ledges that offer dicey engagements. They don’t really allow invaders to be a menace so defenders don’t care and for obvious reasons, scouting the map is largely pointless.

And poof, just like that, dead map.

I’m fine if they rotate the maps but the desert BL still needs major work.

Actually, the maps are PRO-STATEGY if you really look at it. Pinch points, to kill incoming forces, Land Height differences, that allow better siege placement (by that I mean trebs and catas), etc. I mean real war is based on land that HAS 3 dimensions, not just a flat plain with potholes for altitude changes. I mean if altitude didn’t matter in RL wars and battles, then the Golan Heights would not be held by Israel, it is that simple.

The problem with the Alpine BL’s is they didn’t have any of these and just allowed for blob on blob mentality. This is why people do not like the new BL’s they have to think on HOW to do things. The old BL’s promoted blob on blob mentality and that was probably the first mistake done in WvW. The new maps while not perfect (I agree with Air Keep being too big), they at least prevent this incessant use of the blob.

Alpine is about a thousand times better for small groups than the deserted bl.

-It wasn’t full of random barriers that prevented you from criss-crossing the map.
-You could capture and upgrade/siege towers and use them to launch your assault on keeps (because they were close enough to threaten them.)
-It wasn’t full of PvE gimmicks that discourage fighting (stealth sandstorms, cripple spam, no falling damage, etc.)

The map might be fun as a dungeon or even as a replacement for eotm but it fails hard as a WvW map.

DIsagree. You can easily Ninja keeps if it weren’t for all the Tactivators and high damages needed on walls, gates. I mean I did 4-man a T2 gari before (but no guild had it claimed). It is not hard. Since you obviously haven’t tried it on the new BL, I will disregard your opinion in it.

The DBL’s, as a WvW map, make you actually think more logically and tactically on what to take to make in roads on a BL. In the ABL’s it was BLOB mentality (just as it is in EBG) – just overwhelm and be done with. The chokes were small and could be overwhelmed easily.

There are positives and negatives to both. One needs to take out the MAJOR negatives that cam along with the DBL add I; the Stability nerf, Tactivators (emergency WP’s etc.), Shield Gens, increasing the HP of walls/gates (I mean at T-3 you can not ‘man-mode’ gates anymore), and of course Dragaon and other banners.

Don’t assume you know me. I soloed fire keep a couple days after HoT came out. Being able to PvD an empty bl doesn’t make it fun for most people. I gave the deserted bl a chance, and it failed. Roaming fights have completely dried up. The only strategy being used is hop on the empty map and k-train because you no longer have to upgrade keeps to get wp’s so nobody rushes to defend things like they used to.

The alpine map actually promoted fights because upgrades took time and effort. The towers weren’t just out of the way structures that held no value except for PPT. There were choke points you could use if you were smart enough (the entrance to the camps, broken gates/walls, etc.) but there was also open space to have real fights instead of just pirate shipping. The map was just a much better design.

On our Tier – the BL’s aren’t empty, just have roamers, etc because the Blob guilds only play where Blobs can do well (with the PPT mentality) EBG.

The map is fine, it just came out with a bunch of other garbage.

I’m calling bullkitten on that. I’ve hopped around to multiple tiers since the expansion hit, the only roamers I find are now on EBG, unless your idea of roaming are the PvD heroes that jump off cliffs to avoid fighting actual players.

The map is not fine. The map is visually appealing but poorly designed. All the choke points have ended up doing is
-making it so large groups can pass right by each other without ever seeing one another
-funneling small groups right into zergs with no room to escape
-if the stars align and 2 large groups happen to be funneled together you get a boring pirate ship fight because they nerfed stability and increased the hell out of cc.

One thing that happened daily on the alpine map that I have yet to see happen on the deserted map is an epic, several hour long keep fight. The majority of people don’t care to defend, but if there are defenders people won’t bother attacking. They will just move on or map hop because fighting a bunch of siege and annoyingly cc heavy bosses for a structure with no strategic value isn’t worth it, especially when you aren’t taking away the wp they worked hours for.

Bad map is bad.

Well, the main guilds left are PPT guilds and they like to blob – blobbing only works in EBG well.

What time zones did you go in, when you hopped around? That also makes a huge difference since lower tiers do not have 24/7 coverage and even T2 outside of NA (if that is what you were looking at) does not have much coverage. That mostly has to do with loss of players because of the poor design ideas used (Stakittenf, PvE in WvW, etc). Your argument is a non-issue because players are continually bleeding because of these problems I mentioned. At the beginning of HoT there were plenty of players in all times zone on T2, not now.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Puck.9612:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Puck.9612:

Dusty Moon.4382:

Puck.9612:

Dusty Moon.4382:

gennyt.3428:

People have legitimate reasons for avoiding the new maps. The design itself is anti PvP because it forces players to play hide and go seek just by traversing it. With the added CC compounding the stability issues, there are many points on the map that are not conducive to fights due to ledges and chokes. The overload of elevation variation often means pathing and los obstacles as well. The constant falling to get from point A to B, the air turrets, pop up rock walls, barricades and the many narrow winding paths where people have no reason to hang out means players aren’t going to be interacting. The terrain interferes too often to be a good competitive map. It would need massive changes.

The map design is also anti strategy since the objectives are so isolated. The new waypoint rules don’t help either. On alpine BL, some of the most consistent activity came from efforts to break/protect a building waypoint or a northern tower. Being on one map and seeing a Bay or Hills waypoint get contested in another allowed players to scout and mobilize if necessary. Both of those were good rally points for invaders as well. On the new map, they offer little support as one is largely tucked away underground and the other is perched on a cliff surrounded by narrow ledges that offer dicey engagements. They don’t really allow invaders to be a menace so defenders don’t care and for obvious reasons, scouting the map is largely pointless.

And poof, just like that, dead map.

I’m fine if they rotate the maps but the desert BL still needs major work.

Actually, the maps are PRO-STATEGY if you really look at it. Pinch points, to kill incoming forces, Land Height differences, that allow better siege placement (by that I mean trebs and catas), etc. I mean real war is based on land that HAS 3 dimensions, not just a flat plain with potholes for altitude changes. I mean if altitude didn’t matter in RL wars and battles, then the Golan Heights would not be held by Israel, it is that simple.

The problem with the Alpine BL’s is they didn’t have any of these and just allowed for blob on blob mentality. This is why people do not like the new BL’s they have to think on HOW to do things. The old BL’s promoted blob on blob mentality and that was probably the first mistake done in WvW. The new maps while not perfect (I agree with Air Keep being too big), they at least prevent this incessant use of the blob.

Alpine is about a thousand times better for small groups than the deserted bl.

-It wasn’t full of random barriers that prevented you from criss-crossing the map.
-You could capture and upgrade/siege towers and use them to launch your assault on keeps (because they were close enough to threaten them.)
-It wasn’t full of PvE gimmicks that discourage fighting (stealth sandstorms, cripple spam, no falling damage, etc.)

The map might be fun as a dungeon or even as a replacement for eotm but it fails hard as a WvW map.

DIsagree. You can easily Ninja keeps if it weren’t for all the Tactivators and high damages needed on walls, gates. I mean I did 4-man a T2 gari before (but no guild had it claimed). It is not hard. Since you obviously haven’t tried it on the new BL, I will disregard your opinion in it.

The DBL’s, as a WvW map, make you actually think more logically and tactically on what to take to make in roads on a BL. In the ABL’s it was BLOB mentality (just as it is in EBG) – just overwhelm and be done with. The chokes were small and could be overwhelmed easily.

There are positives and negatives to both. One needs to take out the MAJOR negatives that cam along with the DBL add I; the Stability nerf, Tactivators (emergency WP’s etc.), Shield Gens, increasing the HP of walls/gates (I mean at T-3 you can not ‘man-mode’ gates anymore), and of course Dragaon and other banners.

Don’t assume you know me. I soloed fire keep a couple days after HoT came out. Being able to PvD an empty bl doesn’t make it fun for most people. I gave the deserted bl a chance, and it failed. Roaming fights have completely dried up. The only strategy being used is hop on the empty map and k-train because you no longer have to upgrade keeps to get wp’s so nobody rushes to defend things like they used to.

The alpine map actually promoted fights because upgrades took time and effort. The towers weren’t just out of the way structures that held no value except for PPT. There were choke points you could use if you were smart enough (the entrance to the camps, broken gates/walls, etc.) but there was also open space to have real fights instead of just pirate shipping. The map was just a much better design.

On our Tier – the BL’s aren’t empty, just have roamers, etc because the Blob guilds only play where Blobs can do well (with the PPT mentality) EBG.

The map is fine, it just came out with a bunch of other garbage.

I’m calling bullkitten on that. I’ve hopped around to multiple tiers since the expansion hit, the only roamers I find are now on EBG, unless your idea of roaming are the PvD heroes that jump off cliffs to avoid fighting actual players.

The map is not fine. The map is visually appealing but poorly designed. All the choke points have ended up doing is
-making it so large groups can pass right by each other without ever seeing one another
-funneling small groups right into zergs with no room to escape
-if the stars align and 2 large groups happen to be funneled together you get a boring pirate ship fight because they nerfed stability and increased the hell out of cc.

One thing that happened daily on the alpine map that I have yet to see happen on the deserted map is an epic, several hour long keep fight. The majority of people don’t care to defend, but if there are defenders people won’t bother attacking. They will just move on or map hop because fighting a bunch of siege and annoyingly cc heavy bosses for a structure with no strategic value isn’t worth it, especially when you aren’t taking away the wp they worked hours for.

Bad map is bad.

Well, the main guilds left are PPT guilds and they like to blob – blobbing only works in EBG well.

What time zones did you go in, when you hopped around? That also makes a huge difference since lower tiers do not have 24/7 coverage and even T2 outside of NA (if that is what you were looking at) does not have much coverage. That mostly has to do with loss of players because of the poor design ideas used (Stakittenf, PvE in WvW, etc). Your argument is a non-issue because players are continually bleeding because of these problems I mentioned. At the beginning of HoT there were plenty of players in all times zone on T2, not now.

Yeah players were slowly bleeding from the game and then HoT hit and that slow bleed turned into this….

Please scrap the Desert Borderlands, they are absolutely terrible I’d run out of lines before I could finish expressing all the flaws of the new map and I have 6,000 hours in WvW alone.

Scrap the DBL. We have been through this discussion so many times. Also seeing from OP’s post history, he doesn’t seem like a player who have invested enough time in WvW. WvW veterans hate the DBL.

Why scrap them – just get rid of the bloody PvE items that make them annoying. Then give people time to actually play them W/O all the add ons. Then see if you like them. The problem is, people are not seeing them w/o the PvE events.

The fact is that like 80% of the WvW’ers doesen’t like the map. It doesen’t matter if it’s a L2P issue if they don’t enjoy the experience from the start. You shouldn’t have to learn games before they get fun. This is the most good looking map they have ever designed, but it doesen’t matter if it’s designed around alot of PvE and other elements that we don’t want.

The environment ends up being an annoying interuption of something could have been fun. Take the air keep for example with the insane amount of knockbacks, and then the players of on the opponents server sits in a half circle behind the lord with ac’s and other siege. It’s disgusting how strong you made the defenders advantage in HoT. The only way you take over a tower/keep now is if there is small to none defenders. Otherwise it’s impossible.

I also hate the vertical maze design of this marathon running map. It’s so annoying to have to run around forever before something fun happens.

Timelord.8190:

The fact is that like 80% of the WvW’ers doesen’t like the map. It doesen’t matter if it’s a L2P issue if they don’t enjoy the experience from the start. You shouldn’t have to learn games before they get fun. This is the most good looking map they have ever designed, but it doesen’t matter if it’s designed around alot of PvE and other elements that we don’t want.

The environment ends up being an annoying interuption of something could have been fun. Take the air keep for example with the insane amount of knockbacks, and then the plaers of on the opponents server sits in a half circle behind the lord with ac’s and other siege. It’s disgusting how strong you made the defendors advantage in HoT. The only way you take over a tower/keep now is if there is small to none defenders. Otherwise it’s impossible.

I also hate the vertical maze design of this marathon running map. It’s so annoying to have to run around forvcer before something fun happens.

We don’t know if it is the map OR all the PvE stuff that is in the maps (since they came out together) – barricades, shrines, the Oasis (which was removed). Do some tactical surgery first before we throw out the baby with the bathwater.

People were also asking for a change because the Alpine BL’s were getting stale and old and people were bored with them.

You would need alot of surgery. Wouldn’t be worth the effort. I think it’s better to make a map from scratch.

Dusty Moon.4382:

We don’t know if it is the map OR all the PvE stuff that is in the maps (since they came out together) – barricades, shrines, the Oasis (which was removed). Do some tactical surgery first before we throw out the baby with the bathwater.

People were also asking far a change because the Alpine BL’s were getting stale and old and people were bored with them.

The undue verticality, immensity of keeps, excessive choke points, and convoluted pathing, which all discourage fighting, are significant reasons why the map fails for WvW. These aren’t just issues with PvE elements, but with the very design of the map. (There are literally dozens of threads going into more detail on this.)

Burn DBL to the ground and never bring it back, imo. Pick another landscape (deserts are boring af) and build something new

DBL does not encourage fighting. To big and to many paths that you can use to avoid fights. Then you have all of the barricades in the middle of the map that force you to the outside. On the west side of the map you have 4 paths that you can take to get north and the same amount on the east side. We got a map as complex as the HoT map. Its nice in pve since you are willing to explore a bit but in pvp you are looking for enemies and objectives to take.

Alpine Bl is more open and its easier to see enemies at max distance so you can determine do I want to fight a 1v2 or can I link up with the green dot and fight a 2v2. Alpine Bl was getting stale everyone want something new. I still avoided the events in the middle of Alpine bl the ruins which only helped the bigger server. The old krait island was a treb spot but Zergs avoid the lake and stuck to the outside most of the time.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Timelord.8190:

The fact is that like 80% of the WvW’ers doesen’t like the map. It doesen’t matter if it’s a L2P issue if they don’t enjoy the experience from the start. You shouldn’t have to learn games before they get fun. This is the most good looking map they have ever designed, but it doesen’t matter if it’s designed around alot of PvE and other elements that we don’t want.

The environment ends up being an annoying interuption of something could have been fun. Take the air keep for example with the insane amount of knockbacks, and then the plaers of on the opponents server sits in a half circle behind the lord with ac’s and other siege. It’s disgusting how strong you made the defendors advantage in HoT. The only way you take over a tower/keep now is if there is small to none defenders. Otherwise it’s impossible.

I also hate the vertical maze design of this marathon running map. It’s so annoying to have to run around forvcer before something fun happens.

We don’t know if it is the map OR all the PvE stuff that is in the maps (since they came out together) – barricades, shrines, the Oasis (which was removed). Do some tactical surgery first before we throw out the baby with the bathwater.

People were also asking for a change because the Alpine BL’s were getting stale and old and people were bored with them.

Dusty, I hate to break it to you but there is no baby, only Zuul.

Please scrap this ToPiC

Yes the map is aesthetically pleasing, and would be a great addition to the pve zones. It doesn’t suit many peoples preferred play styles, its a pain to navigate regardless of time spent or how well you know it, then you throw in the many gimmicks they added , the physical obstacles like rock walls that are supposed to help you and be a defensive boost can end up screwing you over more then the enemy. It is simply not a fun map, IT IS NOT A FUN MAP for many people, if you like it, go nuts nobody’s stopping you. If they had bothered listening to any of us during the beta tests when they asked for feedback then much of this could have been avoided. On top of that they basically stayed silent for months with occasional false promises of this big wvw overhaul that they were working so hard on for over a year. In the meantime people stopped playing, many left, and we have the disastrous sad state wvw is in now.

It would take a lot of work to fix it and make it workable, honestly I dont know if its possible though or if they would want to put in the effort.

Ulion.5476:

DBL does not encourage fighting. To big and to many paths that you can use to avoid fights. Then you have all of the barricades in the middle of the map that force you to the outside. On the west side of the map you have 4 paths that you can take to get north and the same amount on the east side. We got a map as complex as the HoT map. Its nice in pve since you are willing to explore a bit but in pvp you are looking for enemies and objectives to take.

Alpine Bl is more open and its easier to see enemies at max distance so you can determine do I want to fight a 1v2 or can I link up with the green dot and fight a 2v2. Alpine Bl was getting stale everyone want something new. I still avoided the events in the middle of Alpine bl the ruins which only helped the bigger server. The old krait island was a treb spot but Zergs avoid the lake and stuck to the outside most of the time.

The point is you need choke points when dealing with a mindless blob (it is not a zerg as a zerg actually sometimes does think ).

The Alpine BL’s, as I said, were terrible maps. They were poorly thought out, just like EBG is (but that is another topic). They were what actually made zerging possible. People complained about the mass blobs continually on the ABL’s.

I did hate the desert BL’s until I learned the ins and outs of them and then I learned to really appreciate them. They need tweaks is all.

Dusty Moon.4382:

Ulion.5476:

DBL does not encourage fighting. To big and to many paths that you can use to avoid fights. Then you have all of the barricades in the middle of the map that force you to the outside. On the west side of the map you have 4 paths that you can take to get north and the same amount on the east side. We got a map as complex as the HoT map. Its nice in pve since you are willing to explore a bit but in pvp you are looking for enemies and objectives to take.

Alpine Bl is more open and its easier to see enemies at max distance so you can determine do I want to fight a 1v2 or can I link up with the green dot and fight a 2v2. Alpine Bl was getting stale everyone want something new. I still avoided the events in the middle of Alpine bl the ruins which only helped the bigger server. The old krait island was a treb spot but Zergs avoid the lake and stuck to the outside most of the time.

The point is you need choke points when dealing with a mindless blob (it is not a zerg as a zerg actually sometimes does think ).

The Alpine BL’s, as I said, were terrible maps. They were poorly thought out, just like EBG is (but that is another topic). They were what actually made zerging possible. People complained about the mass blobs continually on the ABL’s.

I did hate the desert BL’s until I learned the ins and outs of them and then I learned to really appreciate them. They need tweaks is all.

The Abl didn’t encourage zerging, the game mechanics do. Having an AoE limit and shared rewards without diminishing returns makes it so blobbing up is safe and effective.

At least with the Abl small groups could quickly move around the map and use the towers to assault defended keeps. They could quickly navigate around keeps to cut off yaks and starve supply.

The deserted bl sticks cliffs and barricades (that stop roamers but not zergs) in the way. The travel time between objectives is longer. There are no defensive positions (towers) for small groups to launch assaults against a defended keep. The best strategy on the deserted bl is to zerg it with overwhelming numbers. Since the bl is so crappy that most people avoid it, overwhelming numbers can be as low kitten people.