Please don't scrap DBL

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: redzerofighter.2381

redzerofighter.2381

Squeeze down the horizontal size of the desert borderlands and I’d be okay with keeping them. For defending purposes, it takes too long to react to groups hitting things in the bl. With increase to siege damage, it doesn’t take much time to bust open even a fortified tower with a group of 10. Honestly, the size of the old bl’s would be pretty good to have.

One huge factor that I think ANET should bring back is the ability to waypoint to all 3 keeps on the map if you own them. The fact that you can only waypoint to the keep closest to your spawn makes no sense to me. I have had many newer players and older vets that gotten back into the game ask me why we can’t waypoint to keeps we own, and all I can say is that is how ANET designed it.

If you are going to scrap the new bl’s you should consider many changes to the old bl’s. For example, with current builds right now I would be able to solo the old tower/keep lords in the old bl’s. Old bl’s have problems in the sense that I can take 1 cata to open a keep all the way to lord’s room. You can’t really do that as much, with exception to center keep.

The lords for each were also pretty powerful in the new bl’s. I liked them as they gave a challenge especially if small group vs small group occurred in lord’s room.

Honestly, I am for either option as long as we see improvements on both ends. If they bring back the old bl at its past state then I will take advantage of it and use the siege spots I’ve put to use for years.

Umi Sonoda
Guild leader of Love Live [Maki]
Ferguson’s Crossing [NA]

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: Calanthe.3857

Calanthe.3857

One of the drawbacks of the Alpine maps was that most structures had no reason for you to defend, aside from PPT. The reason to defend the garrison was not just symbolic, but for the valuable waypoint. In EOTM and Desert BL, structures that give you buffs give you a reason to defend aside from just passive points.

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: Ragnarox.9601

Ragnarox.9601

They can use that maps for pve…I would like to see them in crystal desert – elona expansion 2.

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: littlemunster.1059

littlemunster.1059

Pretty much the title, after seeing the recent post by Mike. I mean the map is so gorgeous, and if people actually learned it – I think potentially you can have much more fun fights than in Alpine. But then again I think utilising environment like higher ground and all that makes for fun strategic play rather than just zergs bashing into each other . The map really does look like it was designed with gliding in mind , so I guess if that’s not happening than reducing the size would help. Please just address the issue with lowest tier servers, as well those are really a dessert population wise. Also I’m not saying ppl are vein, but rewards wise adding say, a WvW legendary backpack as a long term reward would do miracles for attracting more players .

It’s a gorgeous deserted borderland. Tried it and only look at the map and chat with people since it’s useless for anything else. It’s the worst junk ever seen. It’s a PVE map with gliding in mind but without gliding that map is completely useless. Give me my free wings? I’ll take it since I have not bought HOT yet.

The BG Super Munster!

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: littlemunster.1059

littlemunster.1059

If they want to fix the DBL they have to scrap it. It has so many flaws in it, they can’t fix it and a new map would be faster and better.

I wouldn’t mind it, if they put it on a rotation with EOTM oder making a second EOTM with it. But it has to many flaws for real WvW.

+1 Agreed!!!!

The BG Super Munster!

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: littlemunster.1059

littlemunster.1059

I think potentially you can have much more fun fights than in Alpine.

By the time we get to a fight…..half the map is gone anyway. What fights you on about? The NPCs in middle?

By that time, they already got thru to the que in EB.

The BG Super Munster!

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

I lack the energy to argue and imagine it is probably futile anyway. Let me suffice to say that if you’re having problems roaming or with finding good footholds for large fights, you are the problem, not the BL.

At this point, I know the maps by heart. I can get from any point to any other point in less than 2 minutes. Most of the paths aren’t straight but they are not terribly convoluted either. The only time barriers pose a problem is if I’m trying to sneak to northern territory on a BL where my server owns nothing. And by problem, I mean a 30 second detour.

Going back to Alpine is simply trading for a new host of problems. It’s not going to revitalize the game mode. Sure, it has open fields for those who use WvW as a surrogate mass PvP mode, but it also has deeply flawed siege design (moreso than DBL). There are many places to hit a keep where retaliation is impossible, especially at Hills. In short, Alpine is for easymode zerg collisions—DBL is for PPT/Havoc with an option to zerg if you use terrain well.

The root of the problem is likely that many players just want large scale PvP. There’s no way to satisfy both them and the PPT crowd (which seems to have settled mostly on YB) to the fullest. DBL is a decent compromise that can be made better. Alpine, in its former state, requires a zerg to do anything and cannot support healthy PPT.

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: morrolan.9608

morrolan.9608

Actually, the maps are PRO-STATEGY if you really look at it. Pinch points, to kill incoming forces, Land Height differences, that allow better siege placement (by that I mean trebs and catas), etc. I mean real war is based on land that HAS 3 dimensions, not just a flat plain with potholes for altitude changes. I mean if altitude didn’t matter in RL wars and battles, then the Golan Heights would not be held by Israel, it is that simple.

The DBL lacks strategic flow ie there is no strategic reason to capture the towers its only for PPT. What you are talking about is more the tactical side of the map. The problem here is that the map overdoses on such elements, too many choke points, too much height change. Too many paths that allow groups to bypass each other to take objectives, rather than fighting, rather than leading to common areas for larger fights.

Somehow, people are really convinced that the ABL were full prior to the expansion. Like… they somehow missed the idea that it was in a steady decline.

The issue is that the HOT expansion took a large chunk of those that normally WvW and redirected them away for a time. This gave the impression that the DBL was empty, especially due to its size. This spiraled out of control in perception. Perception is everything. It was perceived that the DBL was the reason that WvW was dying because people forget that WvW was dying, prior. So people huddled up on EB, because it was safe and comfortable.

This is actually not right and you see it in some of the complaints here. A large numbers of players actively do not want to go to the DBL maps. I see it in map chat and hear it on TS.

Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro

(edited by morrolan.9608)

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: SleepingDragon.1596

SleepingDragon.1596

Somehow, people are really convinced that the ABL were full prior to the expansion. Like… they somehow missed the idea that it was in a steady decline.

The issue is that the HOT expansion took a large chunk of those that normally WvW and redirected them away for a time.

The game was slowly bleeding players, but DBL came and I play WvW 99% less. I find doing repetitive metas in HOT more fun. DBL only good for guild missions since you can claim something and nobody will bother you. It’s a beautiful cemetery for WvW.

As for redirecting them away… Truth is that it redirected a number of players away until they remove the BL completely. It’s a good map for a quick jump to do your gather resources at your home borderland and perhaps use the mystic toilet and crafting stations.

-S o S-

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: gennyt.3428

gennyt.3428

One of the drawbacks of the Alpine maps was that most structures had no reason for you to defend, aside from PPT. The reason to defend the garrison was not just symbolic, but for the valuable waypoint. In EOTM and Desert BL, structures that give you buffs give you a reason to defend aside from just passive points.

I remember it being kind of a big deal if enemies got waypoints in their respective spawn keeps on your Alpine BL. It’s one of the main reasons server websites had private sections to organize who’ll be on which BL on reset because an enemy waypoint in Bay or Hills meant that your home map will be trampled the whole week and people will fairweather.

The most bitter, tooth and nail fights I’ve seen were over Garrison, the north towers, Bay/Hills and their spawn camps. Especially Bay side spawn camp since you could hit inner walls from there and well, it allowed attackers to get a nice foothold. All the camps mattered (maybe not so much south camp) but losing north camp meant losing easily accessible supply and slowing or starving Garrison/north towers (was great for roamers). Weak north towers meant Garrison was extremely vulnerable. Even Briar tower couldn’t be callously left in an enemy blob’s hands because they can use it to hit Bay. A treb in NE camp can break NE tower and Hills outer. Anet refused to fix spawn siege even though extending the no siege zone by a few meters would have done it but that’s another story. There wasn’t anything actually wrong with the map, it was just getting old after three years. Desert BL doesn’t have that.

So I disagree, objectives on Alpine mattered and would bring about fights but that slowly changed in the face of:

  • comical population balance (Seasons+free transfers, what could possibly go wrong?)
  • megaservers (can’t go to L.A to sell WvWvW to PvEers)
  • stabilty and trait changes (Oh look you’re pinball and everything hits like a truck, so fights are either over fast or so drawn out so much that nothing is really happening. Yay!)
  • seige buffs (because being the most effective and safest is a good balance)

And when we finally get an event, the golems were bugged all to hell. I’m sure there’s stuff I’m forgetting but this post is already pretty ranty.

Whispers with meat.

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: Caid.4932

Caid.4932

I quite like it.
Having 3 versions of it is kind of excessive these days though.

I got pretty sick of the openness of the Alpine bl’s (and how tight the towers and keeps were).
I liked the bay camp, the ruins, the north camp and bay itself was quite good but all of them had a lot of line of sight and change of levels. The camp north of bay had its moments and i’ve had a pretty hilarious zerg fight around the jumping puzzle a couple of times. The rest of it was a wasteland and i’d struggle to think of a single great fight that took place in it despite spending hundreds of hours there . It was too open, it was just bland. And the bridges and stairs leading into hills were a far, far worse chokepoint than anything on the current bl’s. The bridge and door into the keep room in there were even worse.

[Dius]

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: X T D.6458

X T D.6458

One of the drawbacks of the Alpine maps was that most structures had no reason for you to defend, aside from PPT. The reason to defend the garrison was not just symbolic, but for the valuable waypoint. In EOTM and Desert BL, structures that give you buffs give you a reason to defend aside from just passive points.

Thats very innacurate about the Alpine map, if anything the Desert map makes most structures only useful for PPT and not strategic value. GennyT already covered most of it, so I wont get to much into it. The Alpine map pretty much made every objective have strategic value, and not just for fights or ppt, but setting up sieges on other objectives, for example swc or swt trebbing bay. It was really just the jp area, and the skritt/centaur areas that were lacking action, everything else was important.

I say what needs to be said, get used to it.
Honesty is not insulting, stupidity is.
>Class Balance is a Joke<

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: PariahX.6970

PariahX.6970

Somehow, people are really convinced that the ABL were full prior to the expansion. Like… they somehow missed the idea that it was in a steady decline.

The issue is that the HOT expansion took a large chunk of those that normally WvW and redirected them away for a time. This gave the impression that the DBL was empty, especially due to its size. This spiraled out of control in perception. Perception is everything. It was perceived that the DBL was the reason that WvW was dying because people forget that WvW was dying, prior. So people huddled up on EB, because it was safe and comfortable.

Even though the DBL was literally built by the groups that now didn’t support it. Thats right, When the WvW team did the Adopt-a-dev program, people asked for more choke points, more items for smaller groups to take. To break up zergs, something to draw in new players, more tactical maps… The new BL has all that.

And there in lies the problem, DBL was everything a lot of forum posters were asking for and yet it still did not work. The more ANET listens to us the worse the game gets. Maybe they tired to do too many things at once but I can’t help but think if they had a more devoted WvW team who had their own vision for what the game should be and stuck to it WvW could gather those that share their vision and the rest of us would know what the kitten to expect out of the game mode for the long run. Instead we are left wondering which of our FotM pipe dreams might show up six months after it was relevant. >.<

Return of the Alpine map is not going to save the game on its own and if it is done in combination with a group other corrections that would actually be better applied to the game mode with DBL as its map instead then we have a real problem. Sadly at this point I am so bitter over the whole thing that I don’t trust the GW2 player base any more than the rotating understaffed overworked WvW intern who gets stuck trying to make our day dreams reality so all I can say is good luck with any of that.

~Xylla~ [oG] on Ehmry Bay [PiXi]
Xyleia Luxuria / Sweet Little Agony / Morning Glory Wine / Precious Illusionz /
Near Fanstastica /Ocean at the End / Blue Eyed Hexe / Andro Queen / Indie Cindee . . .

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: X T D.6458

X T D.6458

Somehow, people are really convinced that the ABL were full prior to the expansion. Like… they somehow missed the idea that it was in a steady decline.

The issue is that the HOT expansion took a large chunk of those that normally WvW and redirected them away for a time. This gave the impression that the DBL was empty, especially due to its size. This spiraled out of control in perception. Perception is everything. It was perceived that the DBL was the reason that WvW was dying because people forget that WvW was dying, prior. So people huddled up on EB, because it was safe and comfortable.

Even though the DBL was literally built by the groups that now didn’t support it. Thats right, When the WvW team did the Adopt-a-dev program, people asked for more choke points, more items for smaller groups to take. To break up zergs, something to draw in new players, more tactical maps… The new BL has all that.

And there in lies the problem, DBL was everything a lot of forum posters were asking for and yet it still did not work. The more ANET listens to us the worse the game gets. Maybe they tired to do too many things at once but I can’t help but think if they had a more devoted WvW team who had their own vision for what the game should be and stuck to it WvW could gather those that share their vision and the rest of us would know what the kitten to expect out of the game mode for the long run. Instead we are left wondering which of our FotM pipe dreams might show up six months after it was relevant. >.<

Return of the Alpine map is not going to save the game on its own and if it is done in combination with a group other corrections that would actually be better applied to the game mode with DBL as its map instead then we have a real problem. Sadly at this point I am so bitter over the whole thing that I don’t trust the GW2 player base any more than the rotating understaffed overworked WvW intern who gets stuck trying to make our day dreams reality so all I can say is good luck with any of that.

Its normal for some people to want some kind of change after 3 years, there is however a difference between what people perceive as good change and bad change. The desert bl is seen by many as bad change, read the forums from the desert bl beta testing. Many people complained about many of the same issues that are still causing problems. It seems like all that feedback was essentially ignored for months until things got really bad and anet started receiving a lot of negative pr and they finally decided to do something. Ignoring your playerbase is always a recipe for failure and disaster, that’s not rocket science, you don’t have to be a genius to figure that out. If wvw had not been so neglected for over 3 years the problems would not have mounted up to the giant mess it is now. So of course there’s going to be a lot of people wanting a lot of different things, we have all been trying in vain to come up with different solutions to these mounting problems while anet paid lip service.

I say what needs to be said, get used to it.
Honesty is not insulting, stupidity is.
>Class Balance is a Joke<

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: jazdarc.1367

jazdarc.1367

Maps are pretty, but now I understand why there are only skinny toons in Tyria… I run, and run and run….

And I knew people who loved WvW, who quit the game all together because the Alpine borderlands were too big… There’s no way i’m trying to get them back to play the expansion now… Fail Fail fail.

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: LoL NooBs.5076

LoL NooBs.5076

I agree, Desert BL is breathtaking, full of complex possibilities. I’d definitely love to play some PvE on this map. But it’s not for WvW in GW2.

I would like to ask of ANet: Put Alpine back for WvW, please (at least for now). Thanks for hearing us.

According to my immature name I seem not a big loss for the community.

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: X T D.6458

X T D.6458

Maybe put into eotm rotation problem solved!

I say what needs to be said, get used to it.
Honesty is not insulting, stupidity is.
>Class Balance is a Joke<

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: zhonnika.1784

zhonnika.1784

If you think DBL broke up blobs, you should come up here. It most certainly did NOT, and never did. The problem is that the blob is in front of you, you’re fighting, then one the following happens:

1. Zerg gets blown off by Air Keep Birds.
2. Rock walls fly up in your face, totally breaking the flow of the fight.
3. Zerg is – at the same time – in front of you, above you, below you, and somehow even behind/sideways/crisscrossed/crossing time and space dimensions.
4. Zerg is suddenly hiding inside in invulnerable siege spots, firing away.

Look, the old map had its flaws, but aint none of that ^ happening on it. There aren’t many places to fight on DBL that are flat, away from siege/gimmicks. It’s overall unpleasant. So while I appreciate your rather sunny plea there, I can in no way agree with it.

Kashmara – Elementalist | Reapermara – Necromancer
Jade Quarry
Onslaught [OnS]

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: FrouFrou.4958

FrouFrou.4958

During the Reddit AMA they said they would change the new map by opening some choke points, changing the terrain so you wouldn’t die every time you fall down from a cliff and so on. If they manage to get the rotation going for the maps, sooner or later you will end up getting stuck with a map you don’t like either way.. So rather than just crying about the map, it would be more benefical for everyone to come up with constructive suggestions to get some changes going.

I really like the new BL and I would be sad to see it go, but that doesn’t mean I didn’t like the old one. One of the best bits about the old one for a small scale roaming group was the intense fights that happened in the north camp. In the new map we do indeed have a north camp but.. It’s tucked behind bloody barricades. It takes forever to take them down. Once you get there, you flip the camp but there is no chance you would get amazing 15 minute long battle over it. There is no quick way from spawn to the camp so even if the defenders are aware that the camp is getting hit, they will be way too late.

I do like the idea of the shrines but some of the effects are really irritating and serves no other purpose but raising ones bloodpressure. The stone barriers combined with cripple by garrison. Just.. Why?! Also the location for few shrines is a bit.. Meh? South east one, for example. You have to go through so much trouble to get there that no one really bothers with so it has no value when it comes to fights. Only fight you can get there is well.. With NPCs. Oh joy. If you did the mistake of going there in the first place, you face another problem: it takes twice as long to get out of that corner unless you waypoint out.

Froudactyl // Herp Derp Druid // Judge Legends [JDGE] // Seafarer’s Rest

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: Shadow.3475

Shadow.3475

If they made it flat and removed all traps, change Canon in midle so it can shoot max 3shoot at 1target were it makes 50% on paper/shoot, 40% on reinforced/Shoot, 30% on fortify/shoot, with would do so ión paper you can take down 1wall/gate and 50% off 2.

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: Dawdler.8521

Dawdler.8521

During the Reddit AMA they said they would change the new map by opening some choke points, changing the terrain so you wouldn’t die every time you fall down from a cliff and so on.

Wont fix the core layout flaw of desert – keeps/towers are too big, too far apart and some in the completely wrong locations in relation to defender spawn.

Just doing superficial changes fix nothing. Desert is fundamentally flawed no matter how pretty it is.

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: Ogre.3124

Ogre.3124

Pretty much the title, after seeing the recent post by Mike. I mean the map is so gorgeous, and if people actually learned it – I think potentially you can have much more fun fights than in Alpine. But then again I think utilising environment like higher ground and all that makes for fun strategic play rather than just zergs bashing into each other . The map really does look like it was designed with gliding in mind , so I guess if that’s not happening than reducing the size would help. Please just address the issue with lowest tier servers, as well those are really a dessert population wise. Also I’m not saying ppl are vein, but rewards wise adding say, a WvW legendary backpack as a long term reward would do miracles for attracting more players .

There sure are a lot of cuckolds in this today’s world.

Maguuma

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: psizone.8437

psizone.8437

Go hate elsewhere , that’s your opinion and I don’t happen to agree with it

If you can’t handle reading differing opinions then maybe you shouldn’t be posting in an online forum. You don’t have to agree with other people but they’re allowed to express their views.

They don’t need to scrap the borderlands, but they do need to modify it. Being pretty doesn’t mean it works perfectly as a borderland map, but a few tweaks here and there would make it ideal to be put into a rotation with the Alpine maps.

-I’d like them to shrink it down in size a bit
-Don’t reinstate the Oasis event
-Flatten some of it out, it’s too vertical right now (they built it as if they had gliders in mind and it makes no sense currently)
-Tone down the npc gimmicks. Too much CCs and teleports (It’s not difficult, it’s just annoying)
-Revert the waypoints back to how they used to be (everyone can use them if they own the keep), it takes so much longer to traverse the map without the side waypoints.
-Don’t waste time on silly things (If you’re low on time for shipping WvW overhauls then don’t spend your time making a hidden Quaggan cave behind a waterfall)

Brotherhood of Blub [blub]

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: erKo.9586

erKo.9586

Beautiful? what? you like desert and sand in your eyes?

The old maps were BEAUTIFUL, grass, water, snowy moutains, not boring desert.

[WvW] Thanks Anet for listening to your players during 2016.
Far Shiverpeaks – EU – Since release.

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: Leaa.2943

Leaa.2943

2. Rock walls fly up in your face, totally breaking the flow of the fight.

This is actually one of the dumbest additions, because not does it only break up the flow in the fight on the enemies, but if you own the keep you loose access to the enemies with it and you can loose a fight with something that is suppose to help your cause, since yeah it is your keep, your defense.

I don’t know how many times we waited for enemies to break through to jump out and hit them in the back, to then get our own stone wall in our faces that breaks us up instead.

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: Joey.2769

Joey.2769

Major issues I see with the DBL.

Too large and maze like- travel time from point to point makes it worthless to chase the ojs for a fight and sometimes one wrong turn keeps you away from them because of a wall or a cliff

Too much PvE- if I wanted that I’d go to all the PvE farm trains, get rid of the rock, fire, air crap and just have a keep

Too much vertical terrain- leads to being unable to move swiftly from one area to another when you get a call out for the enemy

Commander X Swagalicious X
Commander Twerknificient
Joey Bladow

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: Sird.4536

Sird.4536

Three problems with the DBL that stick out to me.

To many narrow passages. Remove a lot of the choke points giving room for open field fights. Right now it is hard to push against heavily outnumbered opponents and with the new no revive system you can just whittle down the lesser side by bombarding the choke which makes for boring combat.

Travel time. It takes a very long time to travel from location to location. If a lot of the choke points get flattened out then this may reduce travel time but as it is running north to south takes longer than a marathon.

PvE/gimmicks. During my time in WvW I was in a lot of fights that were in and around Lord rooms. Never once did I have to worry about the Lord when fighting a Zerg trying to kill us but here the lords are another mechanic. Leave boss AI in PvE. The gimmicks are a joke as well. I have only been to the air keep once on the attacking side. I don’t want to have to use my stability for the air turrets and not have it for a fight. if we do manage to get past all that and are winning the fight all the opponents have to do is jump down with no damage and I can’t follow.

RP enthusiast

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: sparc.3649

sparc.3649

People have legitimate reasons for avoiding the new maps. The design itself is anti PvP because it forces players to play hide and go seek just by traversing it. With the added CC compounding the stability issues, there are many points on the map that are not conducive to fights due to ledges and chokes. The overload of elevation variation often means pathing and los obstacles as well. The constant falling to get from point A to B, the air turrets, pop up rock walls, barricades and the many narrow winding paths where people have no reason to hang out means players aren’t going to be interacting. The terrain interferes too often to be a good competitive map. It would need massive changes.

The map design is also anti strategy since the objectives are so isolated. The new waypoint rules don’t help either. On alpine BL, some of the most consistent activity came from efforts to break/protect a building waypoint or a northern tower. Being on one map and seeing a Bay or Hills waypoint get contested in another allowed players to scout and mobilize if necessary. Both of those were good rally points for invaders as well. On the new map, they offer little support as one is largely tucked away underground and the other is perched on a cliff surrounded by narrow ledges that offer dicey engagements. They don’t really allow invaders to be a menace so defenders don’t care and for obvious reasons, scouting the map is largely pointless.

And poof, just like that, dead map.

I’m fine if they rotate the maps but the desert BL still needs major work.

Actually, the maps are PRO-STATEGY if you really look at it. Pinch points, to kill incoming forces, Land Height differences, that allow better siege placement (by that I mean trebs and catas), etc. I mean real war is based on land that HAS 3 dimensions, not just a flat plain with potholes for altitude changes. I mean if altitude didn’t matter in RL wars and battles, then the Golan Heights would not be held by Israel, it is that simple.

The problem with the Alpine BL’s is they didn’t have any of these and just allowed for blob on blob mentality. This is why people do not like the new BL’s they have to think on HOW to do things. The old BL’s promoted blob on blob mentality and that was probably the first mistake done in WvW. The new maps while not perfect (I agree with Air Keep being too big), they at least prevent this incessant use of the blob.

^this^

The Alpine BL maps were the mistake! These maps are SO nice!

/—————————————\
© sparc.3649 ~ LPC ~ Anvil Rock
\—————————————/

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: sparc.3649

sparc.3649

Somehow, people are really convinced that the ABL were full prior to the expansion. Like… they somehow missed the idea that it was in a steady decline.

The issue is that the HOT expansion took a large chunk of those that normally WvW and redirected them away for a time. This gave the impression that the DBL was empty, especially due to its size. This spiraled out of control in perception. Perception is everything. It was perceived that the DBL was the reason that WvW was dying because people forget that WvW was dying, prior. So people huddled up on EB, because it was safe and comfortable.

Even though the DBL was literally built by the groups that now didn’t support it. Thats right, When the WvW team did the Adopt-a-dev program, people asked for more choke points, more items for smaller groups to take. To break up zergs, something to draw in new players, more tactical maps… The new BL has all that.

Its biggest flaw, and something we didn’t ask for was size and verticality. Part of me feels like, the original intent was also to condense servers (more people per square inch) and leave open the ability to glide at a future date on the new Bl’s. The problem is that didn’t get addressed in time as all of HoT’s resources seemed to go into mainly PvE. I also have to question why, like so many others I know, I really felt like HoT was pushed out the door super fast.

To be honest I really expected to wait till the end of the year and would of gladly waited if some of the things we wanted in WvW had gotten addressed.

You all don’t realize what a huge undertaking building new WvW maps are and my biggest fear is that reverting these maps means very little new things in WvW in the future. Which is scary. I am thinking of the long term here, not the short term gratification of oh the old maps are back look how easy it is again for me.

Fast forward 1 month. The old maps are so boring, I am going to go play some other game.

^this^

Bringing back those BORING old dried up maps would just “finish off” WVW after a few short months!

/—————————————\
© sparc.3649 ~ LPC ~ Anvil Rock
\—————————————/

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: sparc.3649

sparc.3649

People have legitimate reasons for avoiding the new maps. The design itself is anti PvP because it forces players to play hide and go seek just by traversing it. With the added CC compounding the stability issues, there are many points on the map that are not conducive to fights due to ledges and chokes. The overload of elevation variation often means pathing and los obstacles as well. The constant falling to get from point A to B, the air turrets, pop up rock walls, barricades and the many narrow winding paths where people have no reason to hang out means players aren’t going to be interacting. The terrain interferes too often to be a good competitive map. It would need massive changes.

The map design is also anti strategy since the objectives are so isolated. The new waypoint rules don’t help either. On alpine BL, some of the most consistent activity came from efforts to break/protect a building waypoint or a northern tower. Being on one map and seeing a Bay or Hills waypoint get contested in another allowed players to scout and mobilize if necessary. Both of those were good rally points for invaders as well. On the new map, they offer little support as one is largely tucked away underground and the other is perched on a cliff surrounded by narrow ledges that offer dicey engagements. They don’t really allow invaders to be a menace so defenders don’t care and for obvious reasons, scouting the map is largely pointless.

And poof, just like that, dead map.

I’m fine if they rotate the maps but the desert BL still needs major work.

Actually, the maps are PRO-STATEGY if you really look at it. Pinch points, to kill incoming forces, Land Height differences, that allow better siege placement (by that I mean trebs and catas), etc. I mean real war is based on land that HAS 3 dimensions, not just a flat plain with potholes for altitude changes. I mean if altitude didn’t matter in RL wars and battles, then the Golan Heights would not be held by Israel, it is that simple.

The problem with the Alpine BL’s is they didn’t have any of these and just allowed for blob on blob mentality. This is why people do not like the new BL’s they have to think on HOW to do things. The old BL’s promoted blob on blob mentality and that was probably the first mistake done in WvW. The new maps while not perfect (I agree with Air Keep being too big), they at least prevent this incessant use of the blob.

Alpine is about a thousand times better for small groups than the deserted bl.

-It wasn’t full of random barriers that prevented you from criss-crossing the map.
-You could capture and upgrade/siege towers and use them to launch your assault on keeps (because they were close enough to threaten them.)
-It wasn’t full of PvE gimmicks that discourage fighting (stealth sandstorms, cripple spam, no falling damage, etc.)

The map might be fun as a dungeon or even as a replacement for eotm but it fails hard as a WvW map.

I don’t see any ‘argument’ on the ‘barricades’. If you’re in a large enough group they’re nothing to stand in your way. If you’re a small group or even a solo roamer sure they may take a while to get through, but if you actually took some time to LEARN the new maps you’d also know there are ways around them (and by NO means are they random >.<). So, granted you may be taking “the scenic route”, there are ways around the map WITHOUT having to bust down those dreadful “barricades”.

Take some time to actually learn the maps, unless you’re afraid that you’d actually wind up liking them!

I for one have to say, these new maps are WONDERFUL!

/—————————————\
© sparc.3649 ~ LPC ~ Anvil Rock
\—————————————/

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: gennyt.3428

gennyt.3428

People have legitimate reasons for avoiding the new maps. The design itself is anti PvP because it forces players to play hide and go seek just by traversing it. With the added CC compounding the stability issues, there are many points on the map that are not conducive to fights due to ledges and chokes. The overload of elevation variation often means pathing and los obstacles as well. The constant falling to get from point A to B, the air turrets, pop up rock walls, barricades and the many narrow winding paths where people have no reason to hang out means players aren’t going to be interacting. The terrain interferes too often to be a good competitive map. It would need massive changes.

The map design is also anti strategy since the objectives are so isolated. The new waypoint rules don’t help either. On alpine BL, some of the most consistent activity came from efforts to break/protect a building waypoint or a northern tower. Being on one map and seeing a Bay or Hills waypoint get contested in another allowed players to scout and mobilize if necessary. Both of those were good rally points for invaders as well. On the new map, they offer little support as one is largely tucked away underground and the other is perched on a cliff surrounded by narrow ledges that offer dicey engagements. They don’t really allow invaders to be a menace so defenders don’t care and for obvious reasons, scouting the map is largely pointless.

And poof, just like that, dead map.

I’m fine if they rotate the maps but the desert BL still needs major work.

Actually, the maps are PRO-STATEGY if you really look at it. Pinch points, to kill incoming forces, Land Height differences, that allow better siege placement (by that I mean trebs and catas), etc. I mean real war is based on land that HAS 3 dimensions, not just a flat plain with potholes for altitude changes. I mean if altitude didn’t matter in RL wars and battles, then the Golan Heights would not be held by Israel, it is that simple.

The problem with the Alpine BL’s is they didn’t have any of these and just allowed for blob on blob mentality. This is why people do not like the new BL’s they have to think on HOW to do things. The old BL’s promoted blob on blob mentality and that was probably the first mistake done in WvW. The new maps while not perfect (I agree with Air Keep being too big), they at least prevent this incessant use of the blob.

^this^

The Alpine BL maps were the mistake! These maps are SO nice!

Says the guy who brags about PvDoor. Keep shouting about how great the maps are but the fact that they’re largely empty speaks for itself lol.

Whispers with meat.

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: Joey.2769

Joey.2769

Simply put if Anet wants to keep the last remaining groups in WvW they need to bring back Alpine.

Commander X Swagalicious X
Commander Twerknificient
Joey Bladow

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: Akkeros.1675

Akkeros.1675

so, there is like 2 people that like the new maps that posted 20 times?

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: Puck.9612

Puck.9612

People have legitimate reasons for avoiding the new maps. The design itself is anti PvP because it forces players to play hide and go seek just by traversing it. With the added CC compounding the stability issues, there are many points on the map that are not conducive to fights due to ledges and chokes. The overload of elevation variation often means pathing and los obstacles as well. The constant falling to get from point A to B, the air turrets, pop up rock walls, barricades and the many narrow winding paths where people have no reason to hang out means players aren’t going to be interacting. The terrain interferes too often to be a good competitive map. It would need massive changes.

The map design is also anti strategy since the objectives are so isolated. The new waypoint rules don’t help either. On alpine BL, some of the most consistent activity came from efforts to break/protect a building waypoint or a northern tower. Being on one map and seeing a Bay or Hills waypoint get contested in another allowed players to scout and mobilize if necessary. Both of those were good rally points for invaders as well. On the new map, they offer little support as one is largely tucked away underground and the other is perched on a cliff surrounded by narrow ledges that offer dicey engagements. They don’t really allow invaders to be a menace so defenders don’t care and for obvious reasons, scouting the map is largely pointless.

And poof, just like that, dead map.

I’m fine if they rotate the maps but the desert BL still needs major work.

Actually, the maps are PRO-STATEGY if you really look at it. Pinch points, to kill incoming forces, Land Height differences, that allow better siege placement (by that I mean trebs and catas), etc. I mean real war is based on land that HAS 3 dimensions, not just a flat plain with potholes for altitude changes. I mean if altitude didn’t matter in RL wars and battles, then the Golan Heights would not be held by Israel, it is that simple.

The problem with the Alpine BL’s is they didn’t have any of these and just allowed for blob on blob mentality. This is why people do not like the new BL’s they have to think on HOW to do things. The old BL’s promoted blob on blob mentality and that was probably the first mistake done in WvW. The new maps while not perfect (I agree with Air Keep being too big), they at least prevent this incessant use of the blob.

Alpine is about a thousand times better for small groups than the deserted bl.

-It wasn’t full of random barriers that prevented you from criss-crossing the map.
-You could capture and upgrade/siege towers and use them to launch your assault on keeps (because they were close enough to threaten them.)
-It wasn’t full of PvE gimmicks that discourage fighting (stealth sandstorms, cripple spam, no falling damage, etc.)

The map might be fun as a dungeon or even as a replacement for eotm but it fails hard as a WvW map.

I don’t see any ‘argument’ on the ‘barricades’. If you’re in a large enough group they’re nothing to stand in your way. If you’re a small group or even a solo roamer sure they may take a while to get through, but if you actually took some time to LEARN the new maps you’d also know there are ways around them (and by NO means are they random >.<). So, granted you may be taking “the scenic route”, there are ways around the map WITHOUT having to bust down those dreadful “barricades”.

Take some time to actually learn the maps, unless you’re afraid that you’d actually wind up liking them!

I for one have to say, these new maps are WONDERFUL!

How about you learn to read instead?
I’ve stated multiple times that I have learned the kittenty map. I don’t enjoy “taking the scenic route” to find that by the time I made it to where I saw swords there is no one left to fight.
The map is terribly designed for WvW, you spamming that you like it won’t change that.

Jim Hunter when my other account isn’t suspended

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: FogLeg.9354

FogLeg.9354

There is a lot of people who do not understand much about map design and just keep posting about bringing old Alpine maps back because they remember times when there was more players in WvW.

New maps or old maps, they both pointless when there is no players to fight. And the reason players left WvW is not because of new maps (or it contributed very little). WvW was already fairly dead before HoT and none of the actual changes needed to save it were implemented with HoT.

Yes, they have to fix the scoring first or there wont be any point fighting over any objectives no matter which map you in.

Yes, they have to fix population unbalance or the matches will remain boring zergfest and winning remains pointless.

Once these major things have been settled you can start to argue about what sort of map design is best. Both scoring and population changes will be very-very painful and lots of people will hate every change Anet will propose. But these have to be done first.

Instead of picking pointless and irrelevant stuff from forum or reddit and waste time and effort on these changes to map rotation, we need Anet to grow a pair of balls and step up with clear vision about WvW as gamemode. All I see is Anet trying to please most vocal complainers without any word about the actual future of WvW.

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: Calanthe.3857

Calanthe.3857

I don’t understand why people keep saying the Desert BL is hard to run around. I played it a few times and don’t the shrines give you a speed buff that’s better than Swiftness? Also, I think people misperceive the map as being bigger than it is. I remember running from the west side to the south in only a few minutes.

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

the map as it is is so completely different from what people have been playing its no wonder it was rejected. if it was introduced a lot earlier then it might have been successful, but to introduce something like this when wvw players are so acclimated to alpine gameplay… folly.

the sad truth is that this map would be really awesome if gw2 didnt encourage zerging. put another way, if people actually spread out in teams of 5 and 10 then most of the current combat problems we face in wvw would be cured, like stab, skill lag, and skill animation culling. the simple truth is wvw players like huge scale battles and this map is no where near to fulfilling that desire.

i think it can be redone; make it smaller, remove a lot of the verticality, and add more jump pads. scrapping it altogether would be a mistake, but to reintroduce it with the same (or worse) mistakes would of course be an even bigger mistake. a possible solution to this would be to invite more people to testing new stuff and actually heed their advice. another one is to hire people with thorough knowledge of what the community wants, what it needs, and what it doesnt.

Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE

(edited by Stand The Wall.6987)

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: psizone.8437

psizone.8437

I don’t understand why people keep saying the Desert BL is hard to run around. I played it a few times and don’t the shrines give you a speed buff that’s better than Swiftness? Also, I think people misperceive the map as being bigger than it is. I remember running from the west side to the south in only a few minutes.

Try running from the NW Tower to the SE Tower (assuming you only own Rampart), there are numerous paths and barriers blocking the most direct path so it takes ages.

On the old map you could walk what was essentially a straight line, no hard blocks or cliffs barring the path.

It’s not that the Desert map is ‘hard’ to traverse, it’s just irritating – especially if you accidentally take a wrong turn. Hell, some of it can be pretty maze-like.

Brotherhood of Blub [blub]

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: msalakka.4653

msalakka.4653

Yes map looks gorgeous but is better of as a dungeon map. Bay/Hills/Garri paths with a big legendary duck in the middle.

I can see it already. A gigantic yellow rubber duckie, sluggish in movement but massive in size with devastating attacks. I can see it furrowing its brows with eyes squinted, with beak opening slowly with a nigh-constipated expression. “Oh #(¤%, it’s charging Death Quack!”

Gutter Rat [cry] | Gandara | Roaming nuisance
~ There is no balance team. ~

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

Yes, they have to fix the scoring first or there wont be any point fighting over any objectives no matter which map you in.

Yes, they have to fix population unbalance or the matches will remain boring zergfest and winning remains pointless.

Instead of picking pointless and irrelevant stuff from forum or reddit and waste time and effort on these changes to map rotation, we need Anet to grow a pair of balls and step up with clear vision about WvW as gamemode. All I see is Anet trying to please most vocal complainers without any word about the actual future of WvW.

yes these two points are more important, but in case you havent noticed the people that are still here are not playing the new maps. if people arent used to it they wont like it, and wont try to adapt. it would be great if human nature wasnt so, but it is.

there are vocal complainers because there is no clear vision for wvw. again, this vision cant work against human nature or it will fail. the people have chosen what they want wvw to be and to fight against that would be pointless and moronic. most of the people want to help, because they love wvw and want it to prosper.

Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

Yes map looks gorgeous but is better of as a dungeon map. Bay/Hills/Garri paths with a big legendary duck in the middle.

I can see it already. A gigantic yellow rubber duckie, sluggish in movement but massive in size with devastating attacks. I can see it furrowing its brows with eyes squinted, with beak opening slowly with a nigh-constipated expression. “Oh #(¤%, it’s charging Death Quack!”

hahaha, the lols!

Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: ArchonWing.9480

ArchonWing.9480

We could try to fix it, but I am not sure if they’re up to the task. It’d make sense to have at least a rotation, ideally rotate away the current incarnation until things can be thought out.

I would suggest:

  • Remove Barricades or leave gaps so all they do is widen paths when destroyed. These do nothing to hinder blobs but are a pain for small groups.
  • Open up more paths from center to other parts of the map. The middle is effective wasted space atm, oasis event or not.
  • Widen most paths. In the event a fight happens, more pirate shipping isn’t very fun.
  • More paths in general. Remove some of these barriers so you don’t get as many meandering paths.
  • Shrink Towers/have less attackable walls. There’s so many angles of attack it just places unnecessary strain on scouting defenders, and in a lot of cases people just don’t bother at all.
  • Don’t make jump pads such a big deal, make more stairs.
  • Look at SW tower. Can you even call this thing a tower? It is badly designed and you should feel bad.
  • Tone down all automatic pve gimmicks. Nerf air statues to knockdown, not knockback, nerf fire keep air turret damage, remove cripple from earth keep, tone down the CC from guards.
  • Bring back Bloodlust to the middle, the only appreciated middle gimmick.
  • Remove Keep “revealed”
  • Air/Fire Keep WPs should be usable by whoever owns it.

~Archonwing
SBI Deserted BL Cleanup.

For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.

(edited by ArchonWing.9480)

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: msalakka.4653

msalakka.4653

  • Shrink Towers/have less attackable walls. There’s so many angles of attack it just places unnecessary strain on scouting defenders, and in a lot of cases people just don’t bother at all.

All of your suggestions are good, some essential. However, I’m not sure removing some walls is enough. Defenders/scouts don’t really bother with the towers because of the travel distance, but also because the towers serve no strategic importance. You can’t treb the keeps from any of them. On Alpines they were often crucial elements in strategic play.

Then again, strategic play and the DBLs…..

Gutter Rat [cry] | Gandara | Roaming nuisance
~ There is no balance team. ~

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: X T D.6458

X T D.6458

I still remember the first time I ran into a barricade. Like a fool I stood there in a glorious struggle auto attacking the mighty pile of wood (which doesnt burn), by the time I finally vanquished that foe the real battle on the other side of the map was over. And I thought to myself, my actual mistake was trying to run to my group to help them and actually get into a fight. I should have just stayed at spawn and waited for the zerg to come back. Who the hell seriously ever thought these things were a good idea, all it does is hurt small groups or individual players trying to run to a fight or help defend something…

I say what needs to be said, get used to it.
Honesty is not insulting, stupidity is.
>Class Balance is a Joke<

(edited by X T D.6458)

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: Xenesis.6389

Xenesis.6389

One of the drawbacks of the Alpine maps was that most structures had no reason for you to defend, aside from PPT. The reason to defend the garrison was not just symbolic, but for the valuable waypoint. In EOTM and Desert BL, structures that give you buffs give you a reason to defend aside from just passive points.

Um no, towers in alpine and ebg can be used to take the bigger structures, swt could hit bay, set could hit hills door, nwt net both could hit garrison, in ebg every forward tower can hit smc(cept ogres red keep takes that place). Now the new dbl? yeah they certainly don’t serve any purpose other than looking different from each other.

Towers served as alternative ways to get the outer walls down if an enemy was entrenched in their keep, it forced your enemies to either come up with counter siege attacks or even bring their own force out to try and take back that tower. Especially if it threatened a waypoint.

They’ve messed with the tower and waypoint ideals when they made the new map, which it made it even worse.

P.S They won’t scrap the new bl obviously, too much work was put into it, but I’m sure they will continue to tweak it at some point. and eventually on rotation with the alpine map.

Another derailing post. ^^
North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed.
“Game over man, Game Over!” – RIP Bill

(edited by Xenesis.6389)

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: Puck.9612

Puck.9612

Yes, they have to fix the scoring first or there wont be any point fighting over any objectives no matter which map you in.

Yes, they have to fix population unbalance or the matches will remain boring zergfest and winning remains pointless.

Instead of picking pointless and irrelevant stuff from forum or reddit and waste time and effort on these changes to map rotation, we need Anet to grow a pair of balls and step up with clear vision about WvW as gamemode. All I see is Anet trying to please most vocal complainers without any word about the actual future of WvW.

yes these two points are more important, but in case you havent noticed the people that are still here are not playing the new maps. if people arent used to it they wont like it, and wont try to adapt. it would be great if human nature wasnt so, but it is.

there are vocal complainers because there is no clear vision for wvw. again, this vision cant work against human nature or it will fail. the people have chosen what they want wvw to be and to fight against that would be pointless and moronic. most of the people want to help, because they love wvw and want it to prosper.

I’m pretty sure the majority of WvW players that are still around have spent their fair share of time on the deserted bl. The “get to know the map” argument doesn’t really work anymore. People don’t like the map because it’s poorly designed for WvW. They aren’t going to waste their time on something that doesn’t play well and they don’t enjoy.

Jim Hunter when my other account isn’t suspended

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

If you think DBL broke up blobs, you should come up here. It most certainly did NOT, and never did. The problem is that the blob is in front of you, you’re fighting, then one the following happens:

1. Zerg gets blown off by Air Keep Birds.
2. Rock walls fly up in your face, totally breaking the flow of the fight.
3. Zerg is – at the same time – in front of you, above you, below you, and somehow even behind/sideways/crisscrossed/crossing time and space dimensions.
4. Zerg is suddenly hiding inside in invulnerable siege spots, firing away.

Look, the old map had its flaws, but aint none of that ^ happening on it. There aren’t many places to fight on DBL that are flat, away from siege/gimmicks. It’s overall unpleasant. So while I appreciate your rather sunny plea there, I can in no way agree with it.

1.) Either learn to wait a few seconds to avoid the blast, take 2 shrines to disable the blast, or approach from the west where there are ways in that do not require passing the blowers.

2.) Taking a few shrines disables the rock walls. Also, if they’re your walls, you should expect them and use them to your advantage.

3.) If the enemy zerg is crossing time and dimensions, you’ve got bigger problems than a map or even a game. I suggest calling the Doctor.

4.) This is the same on Alpine. Offensively and defensively.

Joey

Major issues I see with the DBL.

Too large and maze like- travel time from point to point makes it worthless to chase the ojs for a fight and sometimes one wrong turn keeps you away from them because of a wall or a cliff

Too much PvE- if I wanted that I’d go to all the PvE farm trains, get rid of the rock, fire, air crap and just have a keep

Too much vertical terrain- leads to being unable to move swiftly from one area to another when you get a call out for the enemy

How is there more PvE than Alpine? Barring the Oasis event, there are far fewer aggressive mobs on the map or anywhere near the paths.

As to your other concerns, you have the tools to see the enemy coming much, much sooner. Unless you’re trying to mono-blob versus two enemy groups, they should not be beating you to places by a large margin.

Sird

PvE/gimmicks. During my time in WvW I was in a lot of fights that were in and around Lord rooms. Never once did I have to worry about the Lord when fighting a Zerg trying to kill us but here the lords are another mechanic. Leave boss AI in PvE. The gimmicks are a joke as well. I have only been to the air keep once on the attacking side. I don’t want to have to use my stability for the air turrets and not have it for a fight. if we do manage to get past all that and are winning the fight all the opponents have to do is jump down with no damage and I can’t follow.

Are you seriously complaining about lords that are more or less harmless on their own but effective when paired with an equally sized enemy force? Are you honestly saying that the lord should be a non-factor?

As for the air turrets and fall damage immunity, send 2 people to cap 2 shrines and you’re set.

Joey

Simply put if Anet wants to keep the last remaining groups in WvW they need to bring back Alpine.

Or you could all leave. I bet we’ll have plenty of folks left.

Puck

I’ve stated multiple times that I have learned the kittenty map. I don’t enjoy “taking the scenic route” to find that by the time I made it to where I saw swords there is no one left to fight.

Why is there a fight going on at a place you must bypass a barricade to get to? On your home BL, that only happens if they take your northern towers and your Rampart before your side keeps. On enemy BLs, that only happens if your team is fighting at north camp before taking Rampart. If you run into a barricade outside of those situations, you had a different path you could have taken.

psizone

Try running from the NW Tower to the SE Tower (assuming you only own Rampart), there are numerous paths and barriers blocking the most direct path so it takes ages.

On the old map you could walk what was essentially a straight line, no hard blocks or cliffs barring the path.

It’s not that the Desert map is ‘hard’ to traverse, it’s just irritating – especially if you accidentally take a wrong turn. Hell, some of it can be pretty maze-like.

1.) Head south into the canyon and follow the straight, flat road to the Oasis. Cross diagonally to the southeast and take the unobstructed path that leads directly to the backdoor of SE tower. For this path, you encounter 0 barricades no matter what you own. If you own Rampart, you also won’t encounter any earth walls.

2.) If on home BL, take WP to Rampart and exit to the south into the Oasis. Cross to the southeast corner and take the path that leads directly to the backdoor of SE tower.

Maybe I’m missing something? That was really, really easy. It’s actually not that different from Alpine considering the huge cliffs near NWT there and the embankment to the north of SE tower. Going through the Oasis is about the same as going through the ruins.

X T D

I still remember the first time I ran into a barricade. Like a fool I stood there in a glorious struggle auto attacking the mighty pile of wood (which doesnt burn), by the time I finally vanquished that foe the real battle on the other side of the map was over. And I thought to myself, my actual mistake was trying to run to my group to help them and actually get into a fight. I should have just stayed at spawn and waited for the zerg to come back. Who the hell seriously ever thought these things were a good idea, all it does is hurt small groups or individual players trying to run to a fight or help defend something…

Unless you’re in a zerg or in a small group of multi-hit classes (like power necro or staff thief), it is always faster to avoid the barricade. That’s kind of the point. If you want, I can give you quick and easy directions from any point A to any point B.

Xenesis

Towers served as alternative ways to get the outer walls down if an enemy was entrenched in their keep, it forced your enemies to either come up with counter siege attacks or even bring their own force out to try and take back that tower. Especially if it threatened a waypoint.

You’re right about this, but I disagree that it is a fully positive effect.

When you can siege from towers, that means that your sieging position now has walls to defend it. In order to break the siege, the tower must be recaptured even while your whole force is snug within it. That makes it impossible to launch any sort of defense without the aid of a zerg of similar or greater size. It means that mono-blobs are by far the superior strategy because you can’t do anything to slow one down unless you blob up yourself.

On DBL, the towers function as ways to control territory. They’re spread out more so that they cover more ground. Losing a southern tower makes it harder to detect enemies moving northward. Losing a northern tower makes it much easier for enemies to assault Rampart (though not guaranteed like on Alpine).

Both of these mechanics have their merits, but I prefer the one that encourages scouting rather than blobs. It wouldn’t be awful if the maps retained that distinction and were put into rotation, though—a new strategy for different weeks would keep the battle fresh.


It’s hard to take people seriously when they claim to know the map then complain about shrine effects. Shrines are incredibly easy to flip and, as a rule, difficult or impossible to defend from within the walls. Anyone who suffers from shrine effects either made a decision to blitz and is dealing with it, does not understand the map, or is simply foolish.

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: psizone.8437

psizone.8437

psizone

Try running from the NW Tower to the SE Tower (assuming you only own Rampart), there are numerous paths and barriers blocking the most direct path so it takes ages.

On the old map you could walk what was essentially a straight line, no hard blocks or cliffs barring the path.

It’s not that the Desert map is ‘hard’ to traverse, it’s just irritating – especially if you accidentally take a wrong turn. Hell, some of it can be pretty maze-like.

1.) Head south into the canyon and follow the straight, flat road to the Oasis. Cross diagonally to the southeast and take the unobstructed path that leads directly to the backdoor of SE tower. For this path, you encounter 0 barricades no matter what you own. If you own Rampart, you also won’t encounter any earth walls.

2.) If on home BL, take WP to Rampart and exit to the south into the Oasis. Cross to the southeast corner and take the path that leads directly to the backdoor of SE tower.

Maybe I’m missing something? That was really, really easy. It’s actually not that different from Alpine considering the huge cliffs near NWT there and the embankment to the north of SE tower. Going through the Oasis is about the same as going through the ruins.

I didn’t ask for directions, nor did I state that it was hard to get there. It just takes longer and has more chances for errors. Maybe be a little less condescending next time and your comments might hold more merit.

Brotherhood of Blub [blub]

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

Condescension has no bearing on the merit of a comment, just on how well it might be perceived. I was actually trying to be nicer to you than some of the others but I guess I failed. Sorry.

Anyway, you said there were barriers blocking the most direct path. There are not—unless there’s some condition you didn’t stipulate.

You also said that on Alpine there were no hard blocks or cliffs between NWT and SET. There were.

You said that the map is irritating (an opinion, so I won’t dispute it) but also maze like. Thus, I gave directions to demonstrate how simple the path was.

You said that it takes longer and has more chance for errors. I suppose there are more possible errors though they are simple enough to avoid after a few moments on the map. As to it taking longer, I don’t have times for Alpine but I doubt there is any significant difference. If you don’t believe that, refer to this video series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CENlFEHyea4

Please don't scrap DBL

in WvW

Posted by: TheGrimm.5624

TheGrimm.5624

WvW was already losing people because it was stale. Scraping the DBL and putting back in the ABL would just re-introduce something people were already tired of. So you might just end up swapping people in and out. The DBL is not easy but that’s what makes it fun and different to the people that like it. All of those twists and chokes and bigger areas were what people were requesting as the population was in decline before HoT. Remember one of the biggest issues was how do you discourage zerging. ANet’s answer was to give us something meaty enough that you need to split up some to handle. Its funny over time as I watch more people really enjoy DBL over the other maps, sadly not all those people are forum goers so it masks the numbers.

I think the true answer here is something between the two that gives people a choice, if you force them down one path or another and you will lose more than you gain.

GW/PoTBS/WAR/Rift/WAR/GW2/CU

De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.