Guild Wars 2

Ben K.6238:

You can bring back the map, but Alpine alone won’t bring back the players. WvW was dying long before HoT.

Why does everyone ignore this?
Why won’t people acknowledge this?

We really need to start being honest with ourselves and while a few of you will rush to those Alpine borderlands. You just dont understand the long term ramifications of such actions.

The instant gratification won’t last long.

Nightshade.2570:

Ben K.6238:

You can bring back the map, but Alpine alone won’t bring back the players. WvW was dying long before HoT.

Why does everyone ignore this?
Why won’t people acknowledge this?

We really need to start being honest with ourselves and while a few of you will rush to those Alpine borderlands. You just dont understand the long term ramifications of such actions.

The instant gratification won’t last long.

It has nothing to do with instant gratification, it has to do with once again having a bl that is viable for WvW.
No one expects it to bring back everyone that left, but it will bring back some, and it will return the play style that kept a lot of us logging in every day.

I’ve yet to see anyone even imply that pre-HoT WvWvW wasn’t obviously dying and alpine BL would save the day. It’s repeated that it can however, slow the escalated decline brought on by the poor terrain on Dedert BL, especially if it doesn’t have all the OP HoT stuff on it. And maybe just maybe it’ll help repair Anet’s battered image.

please scrap this horrible map and take all the stupid broken guild upgrades and the stupid pve gimmicks with it.

I support keeping Desert maps around, all they need is a redesign. Shrink the tower and make them interactive with keeps such as the northern towers are with Garri in alpine maps, and maybe redo center with a SMC type keep. Also revert to the old upgrade system, just make the que able to be locked out of public activation by a claiming guild and that feature on a timer so claimer must re-activate public upgrading lockout every 2 hours or so.

Oh yes please do scrap these DBL’s in their present form with their indirect long routes to get anywhere, ugly chokes, terrible terrain for fights and nauseating gimmick pve crap. These DBL’s have driven off wvw players in their droves and the resulting queues for EB and the blob fights, banners, airships and chilling fog have driven off almost the rest. Of the 5 wvw guilds that I have belonged to that were all active post HOT only 1 remains and that is barely holding on by the skin of it’s teeth.

DBL’s are far too in favour of siege and most people who solely wvw prefer fights and skill, siege requires 0 skill.

Lovely maps for pve but absolutely NOT for wvw.

Hadn’t actually seen a decent fight on the borderlands since before stability change on T3, so that must be around a year now. I’m wondering -

With such low population that everyone has to play on EB to find something to fight, would anyone even notice if it got changed back to Alpine?

Ben K.6238:

Hadn’t actually seen a decent fight on the borderlands since before stability change on T3, so that must be around a year now. I’m wondering -

With such low population that everyone has to play on EB to find something to fight, would anyone even notice if it got changed back to Alpine?

T1 can still muster numbers on the home bl….just! But good fights sadly not, cos the terrain, cripple and kitten get in the way.

I used to play 4-6 hours in WvW almost every day because it was fun. I haven’t logged in for over a month because the Desert Boredom Lands are not fun, at all. It’s really that simple.

Please scrap DBL, I tried but I can’t stand it anymore.

Ben K.6238:

Hadn’t actually seen a decent fight on the borderlands since before stability change on T3, so that must be around a year now. I’m wondering -

With such low population that everyone has to play on EB to find something to fight, would anyone even notice if it got changed back to Alpine?

I think a lot of the roamers would play the bl, I know I would.
If they bring them back without doing any stupid kitten to “fix” them (give us classic upgrade system and waypoints) it would be easy for a good roamers to cause enough havoc to pull in large groups from EB.

I like some of the things about the new map but there are a lot of things I do not like either.. I think we have to think about the health of the game mode as a whole and going by the forums the majority of players do not like it and even if it was changed some I think they would still not like it. I even said a few things that they should change/remove in the new map but now I don’t even think that would make people happy.

I’m trying to think about the future of this game mode because I LOVE this game mode and just want to hop in on any map and find fights. Since the majority would rather see the old maps return they have convinced me that this is the right way to go. I have had some fun fights on the new maps but its only like a few fun fights a week, if that and the rest of the time is in EBG. I don’t even react to many BL call outs like I used to do in the past because not many will join me in going to try to defend something lol

In the past, even in the lower tiers, during primetime you could pick any map and go out and try to make fun fights. Its just not the case with this map. You try to bring out fights and nobody even comes to the maps to defend.

To sum it up I hope they do whatever they need to do with the old maps to bring them back asap before they even try to attempt to fix the new map. I don’t think many people would even give a fixed new map a chance and it will all be a waste of time. Since most would rather have the old maps back I too now would like to see the old maps return before a fixed new map comes into play.

Farzo.8410:

Kastiel.1947:

+1 for Farzo, I agree with what you are saying and I think people should take a more mature, objective stance on this issue. What would you suggest as a way for improving getting around the map easier?

I was thinking about a waypoint somewhere around the oasis area. It doesn’t have to be a large keep around it, but maybe a smaller tower. Though I do know it could take some time to build up.

Otherwise, it would be flatter lands. The main complaint I’ve seen is how vertical it is, and that you are met with ravines or walls everywhere and have to walk around a big chunk of the land to reach your destination. So just a tweak to the land to make it slightly flatter, more places to ascend and descend.

Those are the quick fixes I can think of.

So…wait…keep the desert borderlands…just make it flatter and a few more places to ascend and descend….So your opinion is to keep the DBLs, just change them to be kind of like the alpine borderlands with sand instead of snow…and some more verticality thrown in for the lulz?

Nightshade.2570:

Ben K.6238:

You can bring back the map, but Alpine alone won’t bring back the players. WvW was dying long before HoT.

Why does everyone ignore this?
Why won’t people acknowledge this?

We really need to start being honest with ourselves and while a few of you will rush to those Alpine borderlands. You just dont understand the long term ramifications of such actions.

The instant gratification won’t last long.

The scrapping of DBL respresents 2 things:
1) That ANET can listen to the VAST MAJORITY of the community that want alpine back.
2) The return of alpine is one slate wiped clean and we can move on to wipe or fix others. It existed pre-HoT and is a good reminder that wvw can be improved with slight modifications not by reinventing the wheel.

People who like current BL maps are playing the game, not whining in the forum about it. Removing them will upset lots of players who actually like them, and possible make them quit. People who demand old BL maps do not even play the game anymore, and they will not return once there are old maps again.

FogLeg.9354:

People who like current BL maps are playing the game, not whining in the forum about it. Removing them will upset lots of players who actually like them, and possible make them quit. People who demand old BL maps do not even play the game anymore, and they will not return once there are old maps again.

Sure, sure continue the clear and rapid downward spiral by catering to the people who like empty maps. Recipe for success right there.

FogLeg.9354:

People who like current BL maps are playing the game, not whining in the forum about it. Removing them will upset lots of players who actually like them, and possible make them quit. People who demand old BL maps do not even play the game anymore, and they will not return once there are old maps again.

While you might be right and tbh I don’t think just giving back the map will bring players back but I just don’t see this game mode lasting for years, like it did with old map, with that current map in place. Yes game mode has been losing players for a long time now but it happened for several reasons and the new map was suppose to bring people back but it did the opposite. I can’t even blame it all on the map either as for me balance since HoT has been horrible.

For now I’m throwing in the towel and will leave it up to the players to stick with what they say lol If they say they will come back if old maps came back well lets see if that is true. They sure are not coming back with this map sticking around. I tried very hard to get people to try out this map when it first came out but lets face it, its past the honeymoon phase and even now the bl’s are not played as much as they should be.

I want to come back to putting endless hours into this game mode but I just can’t do it with the current state of this game. For me it is going to take more than just maps but the map is a start..

I don’t play as much as i did before, old BL’s were why i played

Mew.7386:

Please scrap DBL, I tried but I can’t stand it anymore.

This

well, it doesnt matter, they broke wvw again.

gennyt.3428:

FogLeg.9354:

People who like current BL maps are playing the game, not whining in the forum about it. Removing them will upset lots of players who actually like them, and possible make them quit. People who demand old BL maps do not even play the game anymore, and they will not return once there are old maps again.

Sure, sure continue the clear and rapid downward spiral by catering to the people who like empty maps. Recipe for success right there.

Can you explain how old maps will generate more WvW players? So many players waited for HoT to solve actual WvW problems (server population, nightcapping, skill balance etc) and people were just sticking around to see if these will be adressed. Nothing was done about these so people left the game, making the maps emptier then ever and creating an illusion that new maps were to blame for everything.

The issue with reverting back to old maps is that it takes a lot of work and wastes even more time that should be spent fixing real WvW problems. The BL maps were empty before the HoT and will be even more emptier once the old maps are returning because there just is not enough WvW players anymore to cover 4 maps, at least below tier 1. So, things get changed, work is being done, time is wasted, and result is exactly same as before, if not even worse.

WvW could be great even on completely flat green square if the basic problems are first taken care of. And it will still suck and continue to lose players no matter which map is used if nothing is done about the basics.

FogLeg.9354:

gennyt.3428:

FogLeg.9354:

People who like current BL maps are playing the game, not whining in the forum about it. Removing them will upset lots of players who actually like them, and possible make them quit. People who demand old BL maps do not even play the game anymore, and they will not return once there are old maps again.

Sure, sure continue the clear and rapid downward spiral by catering to the people who like empty maps. Recipe for success right there.

Can you explain how old maps will generate more WvW players? So many players waited for HoT to solve actual WvW problems (server population, nightcapping, skill balance etc) and people were just sticking around to see if these will be adressed. Nothing was done about these so people left the game, making the maps emptier then ever and creating an illusion that new maps were to blame for everything.

The issue with reverting back to old maps is that it takes a lot of work and wastes even more time that should be spent fixing real WvW problems. The BL maps were empty before the HoT and will be even more emptier once the old maps are returning because there just is not enough WvW players anymore to cover 4 maps, at least below tier 1. So, things get changed, work is being done, time is wasted, and result is exactly same as before, if not even worse.

WvW could be great even on completely flat green square if the basic problems are first taken care of. And it will still suck and continue to lose players no matter which map is used if nothing is done about the basics.

A solo roamer was able to make a big impact on the alpine bl without it feeling like such a grind (camps being closer to towers, towers threatening keeps, people defending because upgrades took effort and structures threatened each other, being able to go through outer and inner walls with 1 cata, etc.), this meant solo players and small guilds had something fun to do while waiting for friends to log in.

Right now we have zergy EB, or a crappy PvE map where everything is fortified and no one shows up to fight. Neither of these will keep a lot of roamers playing for hours like the alpine map did.

If they being back the alpine bl without the kittenty HoT upgrades they will give solo players something to do while waiting for friends to log on. Right now people log in, check their friends list and see no one and log off, because kitten sitting around for an hour hoping someone else logs on.

FogLeg.9354:

gennyt.3428:

FogLeg.9354:

People who like current BL maps are playing the game, not whining in the forum about it. Removing them will upset lots of players who actually like them, and possible make them quit. People who demand old BL maps do not even play the game anymore, and they will not return once there are old maps again.

Sure, sure continue the clear and rapid downward spiral by catering to the people who like empty maps. Recipe for success right there.

Can you explain how old maps will generate more WvW players? So many players waited for HoT to solve actual WvW problems (server population, nightcapping, skill balance etc) and people were just sticking around to see if these will be adressed. Nothing was done about these so people left the game, making the maps emptier then ever and creating an illusion that new maps were to blame for everything.

The issue with reverting back to old maps is that it takes a lot of work and wastes even more time that should be spent fixing real WvW problems. The BL maps were empty before the HoT and will be even more emptier once the old maps are returning because there just is not enough WvW players anymore to cover 4 maps, at least below tier 1. So, things get changed, work is being done, time is wasted, and result is exactly same as before, if not even worse.

WvW could be great even on completely flat green square if the basic problems are first taken care of. And it will still suck and continue to lose players no matter which map is used if nothing is done about the basics.

I like how you chose to ignore the stream of players saying why they don’t like the new maps even though they still play WvWvW. Did you miss the other complaints about guild upgrades, power creep etc? I don’t see anyone saying that the new map is the sole or even the main culprit for the rapid post HoT decline.

Anet has "wasted " resources plenty if that’s your outlook so why not waste more by reverting to a functioning WvWvW map instead of an obstacle course for hamsters. Either manage the game properly or watch people walk away from it. No excuses.

The new BL maps are kitten, sandy kittenty looking like a jumping puzzle or hide and go seek. Sorry, but im not playing Mario. Stepped foot there once and never again and dont give a kitten about it. Please erase them!!!

WvW is just die slow but is die……no more roamers…i mean what is the point when you got so huge map and is all zig zag…….and wuut is the point to run at the south of the map when you will lose like 5 min to be there and some blob will pass over you before reach that part of the map…..fights with commmander is somewhere to few seconds not anymore like before when after a fight you could say that was so much,,,,, and no more fun,,,, i got like 3 min of imobilize on my after i spent like 5 condi remove so after i just find a build that can gave some satisfaction ANET is coming with other changes and i have to spent more time to find another build and in the mean time no real fights.
Where is this beautifull borders when more and more old players are leaving and are coming some free players that they only run around not care of anything any objective no real action on the map……is jungle or desert fell claustofobic now if you really want to be a roamer be a thief thas it and in game a thief can kill you in 3 seconds and you dont event see him is like something invisibile that kill you…..in the rest is BannerWars and not Guildwars stupid upgrades —-i had to explain to at least a dozen of players how they work ……did u reallly made a research to see how easy was before to understand and now a player come in game and say ,,no this is to complicated and i dont understand the point’’ having a waypoint is not anymore important and this fact that enemy can spot you on the map tru sentry,,,,wuut is this somekind of phonecall from sentry to you telling you ,,is here’’.
for doing some space om my SSD i will actually remove this game not more fun i have all skins all titles all story all legendary all gem store all maps only thing was WvW that was chalenging now is just to complex of crap and no more real fights. Be clean and simple was the way.

What scares me the most is that Anet might see this thread, not read it and all the posts clearly against keeping DBLs and say something like “After careful consideration we have decided that, due to not everyone wanting the DBLs gone, we will keep them and instead work further to improve them”.
There is no easy or quick way to ‘improve’ them, I’m sorry. It’s far too huge, far too complex in terms of levels, far too PvE-ish and the tower/keep bosses are just too gimmicky and strong. When we asked for WvW to get something new, I don’t think most of us meant guild hall-built upgrades (which discourage very small guilds/roaming guilds, by the way, because where are we meant to get the materials?), the completely stupid banners, cloaking waters etc.
Sure it may be possible for a small guild to get these materials, but in the end why would we? If it takes so long to get into the only map worth playing, EB, because it has a 50+ man queue most of the time because no one wants to play on the DBLs.
Going back to ABLs may not necessarily fix WvW completely or bring back all who left already, but that’s an argument for getting rid of DBLs in itself – people who play WvW are leaving this game for others. Please don’t push the rest away too.

Guild upgrades are not related to the specific map.

Guild Upgrade are related to all the HoT crap…..
Including more class balance issue, pve grind guild upgrade, auto upgrade, new map, shield generator….

Sich.7103:

Guild Upgrade are related to all the HoT crap…..
Including more class balance issue, pve grind guild upgrade, auto upgrade, new map….

It is related to HOT, but not to the DESERT map. Meaning that even if they bring back Alpine, they will add all of that stuff to Alpine as well.

Those that are asking for “revert everything!” isn’t really asking to revert Desert map, you’re asking them to roll back to pre-stability-nerf-patch. Be that as it may be, that is not asking to remove the Desert BL as this thread is about.

I don’t really say either is right or wrong. Just specifying that they are two different topics. (the entire guild hall upgrade system can take a hike down the Mississippi and never return for what I care! But that is a different thread)

THEORETICALLY they could end up shocking everyone, and keep the Desert map, and rolling everything else back to pre-stability-nerf-patch, honestly I kinda hope they do that for 1st April, just so I can look at all the flabbergasted faces on the forum!

\m/ ^_^ \m/

Obviously there can’t ever be “exact” old versions of alpine Bl maps. Too many things have changed already beside the actual map. I can understand why some people do not enjoy desert maps but seriously, even if they replace the maps, there will be alpine maps WITH everything HoT added/changed/replaced. You may not actually like how it turns out.

Same way, there will never be “good old” stability system. So much non-WvW stuff has changed, they can not put it back the way it was because whole game around WvW has changed.

Yeah, but Alpine BL with the HoT stuff will be the same kitten…
I can’t imagine defending hills without the ability to build a WP…
Or with those guild upgrade…

Along with the go back to alpine there has been a large response asking for the removal of all the crap that came to wvw with HOT! And even reverting to pre June 2015 patch with regard to stab…
I think the wvw community response to Anet has been clear. The majority of people want the DBL gone and all the stuff that came with HOT removed. The majority of people want fights not defensive tower hugging, siege humping kittentiness that the current DBL and the HOT gimmicks encourage and reward.

NekoNoKoi.9137:

What scares me the most is that Anet might see this thread, not read it and all the posts clearly against keeping DBLs and say something like “After careful consideration we have decided that, due to not everyone wanting the DBLs gone, we will keep them and instead work further to improve them”.
There is no easy or quick way to ‘improve’ them, I’m sorry. It’s far too huge, far too complex in terms of levels, far too PvE-ish and the tower/keep bosses are just too gimmicky and strong. When we asked for WvW to get something new, I don’t think most of us meant guild hall-built upgrades (which discourage very small guilds/roaming guilds, by the way, because where are we meant to get the materials?), the completely stupid banners, cloaking waters etc.
Sure it may be possible for a small guild to get these materials, but in the end why would we? If it takes so long to get into the only map worth playing, EB, because it has a 50+ man queue most of the time because no one wants to play on the DBLs.
Going back to ABLs may not necessarily fix WvW completely or bring back all who left already, but that’s an argument for getting rid of DBLs in itself – people who play WvW are leaving this game for others. Please don’t push the rest away too.

^This! Well said Neko.

Hated DBl at first but they’re growing on me. I like the shrines. I even think the Barricades are a good idea. I like that the central bs is gone, though the space is pretty pointless now. I don’t understand the whole side keep WP thing. It seems unnatural. Mostly I solo roam or run with 1 or 2 others. I think the meta for large scale battles has gotten out of control, but that’s not the map’s fault. Anyway, the last few weeks, I’ve been enjoying WvW again.

DBL is a better map. But its too hard for zerglings to ktrain. We need more zerglings, so maybe have alpine back for a bit, than bring dbl back.