Guild Wars 2

This is not a whine or complain thread. This is especially not a thread complaining about any one server or guild for using this tactic. I’ve been on both sides if it; I’ve been in keeps and garrisons that were being golem-rushed, I’ve been in two successful and one unsuccessful golem rushes against keeps and garrisons myself. No, I don’t think it’s cheating, and no, I don’t think it’s any kind of an exploit, and no, given the current meta of the game, I don’t think any less of anybody who’s using it. All those disclaimers provided, here’s the question I want to ask: in your opinion …

Is the tactic of portal-bombing a golem rush good for WvW, or is it bad for WvW?

Quick review for those of you who are new to WvW or from some server that doesn’t use this tactic: what you need is 8 people. 5 can be any class that has reasonably good vitality; 3 must be mesmers with the Portal utility skill, and ideally one of them should also be high level enough to have Mass Invisibility.

1. Build an Alpha Siege Golem right next to the supply pile in any supply camp (or, failing that, any fully upgraded garrison). With a team of 8, this takes no time at all. Have one waypoint that Golem back to the nearest safe point, and join you back at garrison or at the next supply camp.
2. Repeat step 1 four more times.
3. Waypoint all 5 golem operators and 3 mesmers to somewhere near an enemy keep or garrison during any low-population time of day, or any time that their main population is busy in Eternal Battleground or on some other Borderlands.
4. Mesmers take turns portaling the golems so that they can move at the full +33% normal traveling speed (thanks to speed boosts on the mesmers themselves) the entire length of the map, if need be, just by stepping from portal to portal.
5. When you get to the enemy gate, the mesmers use greatsword long-range attacks to take out any oil or cannons. Ignore the rest, including anybody up on the walls or even any arrow carts, because with Time Warp on the golems, the gate will be down before anybody can die.
6. Jump out of golem suits and 8-man the keep lord. Elapsed time from when the enemy finds out their keep is under attack until you capture it: five minutes, tops.

Here’s the thing: what I hate about this tactic is that any 8-man group can basically capture anything unless there are already at least four, maybe five arrow carts capable of hitting the whole area around the gate and 4 or 5 people standing by inside the keep at all time. That means that to defend both keeps and the garrison takes 12 to 15 people standing by at all times, with nothing to do but watch the gates, to protect themselves from an attack that any 8 people can launch at will with no warning. That is, in my opinion, way, way too big of an advantage to the attacker.

What I’d do about it, if it were up to me, is make golem suits incapable of waypointing and incapable of using mesmer portals. You want to golem-rush a keep that has so many arrow carts you can’t take it any other way? Fine. Guard those golem suits the whole time they’re walking there. Or bring enough people that you can rush-build them (with Time Warp) where you need them. But a tactic where any random 8 people, or at most twice that, of any level and in any gear and with little or no organization, can seize everything on the map within half an hour or combat beginning and against which there is no defense other than permanently stationing overwhelming numbers of defenders? Who, if anybody, thinks that this is fun?

Yes it’s a good thing, it teaches people to defend instead of karma training like a bunch of tools

It’s GOOD for WvW just like ninja catas or ram teams. Hopefully it teaches you why pure zergs with no roaming/scouting is bad. Or why the inability to communicate across maps will lose you objectives.

I think the ability of a small but organized group to ninja objectives from a clearly disorganized and zergy opponent is fun, yes.

It’s fun defending Against golems as well and knowing your opponent has golems on the map and having to watch for them. Keeps things exciting.

What if none of the servers in the tier has 24 hour coverage?

At the risk of making this personal — and I want to stress that I am the least angry person on my server about this — we’re from a server that just plain has no coverage for about 4 hours every weekend night and about 6 to 8 hours every weekday night. Not only will there be fewer than 10 people in WvW at those times, there may not be more than 20 or 30 people on the whole server, period. (This morning, during that time, a friend of mine tried to do the Claw of Jormag PvE event. It drew about 8 people.) One of the other servers in our tier has the same problem … during an entirely different time block.

What that means in practice is that there is about 8 to 16 hours a day when one of our two sides can simply show up, any time during our half of that time, and erase all progress in the other side’s home borderland in an hour or two, tops, counting the time to build the golems. But it doesn’t give us any way to hold those positions once we take them. So it doesn’t change the net score, at all, at the end of the day; all it does is cost both sides a couple of dozen gold a day in having to upgrade their keeps and garrison all over again, every day. And that time spent escorting dolyaks to rush the upgrades back in is boring, boring gameplay, and it’s a heck of a cash sink (so I guess it’s deflationary), and it increases personal resentment on both sides, and when it comes to either providing fun fights or having a winning strategy, it’s pointless. In our tier, at least, we’d probably be better off without it.

InfamousBrad.5879:

What if none of the servers in the tier has 24 hour coverage?

I think your argument is flawed. If you’re pointing out that golem rushes/mez portals are a problem, then point out that you have a coverage issue… well, I don’t think the golem rushes are your problem at all (nor are they really affecting your gameplay). Ninja ram/cata teams are going to do the exact same thing to you, and with less effort/supply/coordination. End result is the same – small, organized groups are going to steal your stuffs.

IMHO, I’m on board with Zephyrus – having a small organized group able to have strategic impact is a GREAT thing in the game.

Zephyrus.9680:

It’s GOOD for WvW just like ninja catas or ram teams. Hopefully it teaches you why pure zergs with no roaming/scouting is bad. Or why the inability to communicate across maps will lose you objectives.

I think the ability of a small but organized group to ninja objectives from a clearly disorganized and zergy opponent is fun, yes.

It’s fun defending Against golems as well and knowing your opponent has golems on the map and having to watch for them. Keeps things exciting.

was about to post but this summed it up nicely.

always be weary if lots of camps start flipping

InfamousBrad.5879:

What if none of the servers in the tier has 24 hour coverage?

At the risk of making this personal — and I want to stress that I am the least angry person on my server about this — we’re from a server that just plain has no coverage for about 4 hours every weekend night and about 6 to 8 hours every weekday night. Not only will there be fewer than 10 people in WvW at those times, there may not be more than 20 or 30 people on the whole server, period. (This morning, during that time, a friend of mine tried to do the Claw of Jormag PvE event. It drew about 8 people.) One of the other servers in our tier has the same problem … during an entirely different time block.

What that means in practice is that there is about 8 to 16 hours a day when one of our two sides can simply show up, any time during our half of that time, and erase all progress in the other side’s home borderland in an hour or two, tops, counting the time to build the golems. But it doesn’t give us any way to hold those positions once we take them. So it doesn’t change the net score, at all, at the end of the day; all it does is cost both sides a couple of dozen gold a day in having to upgrade their keeps and garrison all over again, every day. And that time spent escorting dolyaks to rush the upgrades back in is boring, boring gameplay, and it’s a heck of a cash sink (so I guess it’s deflationary), and it increases personal resentment on both sides, and when it comes to either providing fun fights or having a winning strategy, it’s pointless. In our tier, at least, we’d probably be better off without it.

It’s the same in T3. Everything flips overnight. I’m not seeing how that relates to golems though. If it’s PvD time a ram will do the same thing, and costs 17 times less.

The whole point of golems is to beat the response time, right? Not to take objectives when there’s going to be no response regardless.

It all depends on how you use it. It’s all fair in love and wvw, except cheating/hacking/exploiting… that is for jerks.

Zephyrus.9680:

The whole point of golems is to beat the response time, right? Not to take objectives when there’s going to be no response regardless.

Exactly. A couple of weeks ago, during that same time window, 15 people showed up at a keep that had exactly two defenders in it. But they had no golems. One superior arrow cart and one regular arrow cart erased their rams faster than they could build them, and that ended that. So maybe arrow carts are overpowered, too, but still my point is roughly the same as yours: even if it is only lightly defended, is it intended behavior and is it good for WvW for it to take that few minutes to seize a fully upgraded garrison?

Portal itself is not good for WvW… you can pretty much leave out the rest of the sentence.

Whether it’s rezzing one behind a gate or having to “sweep for mesmers” or jumping puzzle shenanigans or this tactic…. no one ability causes more problems, exploits and non-fun crap to happen.

Yes, it is good. If anything, WvW needs more diversity. Also, give the Portal skill to other professions then just the Mesmer. Or make it a WvW Ability.

Zosk.5609:

Portal itself is not good for WvW… you can pretty much leave out the rest of the sentence.

Whether it’s rezzing one behind a gate or having to “sweep for mesmers” or jumping puzzle shenanigans or this tactic…. no one ability causes more problems, exploits and non-fun crap to happen.

+1000 to this. Well said.

It is Portal that is bad for WvW not Golems.

If you need 12-15 players to wipe 8 people in your Lord Room, you deserve to loose the keep.

the threat of a golem rush is precisely the reason why you need defenders stationed at each of your keeps.

they certainly aren’t loitering there for the WXP.

-ken

Zosk.5609:

Portal itself is not good for WvW… you can pretty much leave out the rest of the sentence.

Whether it’s rezzing one behind a gate or having to “sweep for mesmers” or jumping puzzle shenanigans or this tactic…. no one ability causes more problems, exploits and non-fun crap to happen.

This one statement made me laugh, mainly because of your gripe about having to sweep for mesmers. I’ve said this way too many times, I would have thought it have sunken in by now. Fully sweeping a keep after you take it takes at most 1-2 minutes. When you take it, sweep it. It’s YOUR tower, YOU secure it.

Portal causes NO problems. It helps bring about some really cool strategies, and it also helps smaller groups. “Oh, you don’t have a 40 man zerg to take down this T3 keep? Well, break down a gate, sneak a mesmer in there, and wait.” People don’t like portal because it requires them to do something besides spam skills at a target, especially because mesmers hiding in keeps is now one of the EASIEST things you can possible do in WvW, since they fixed every glitchy wall spot. People just don’t do it, they don’t take the exrta minute or two to secure their OWN territory. Then, when they don’t take the short time to sweep, they whine when a mesmer patiently hides and gets people in.

For all those who don’t play mesmer: hiding in keeps for a long time, and getting people in unseen isn’t very easy, at least during times where the opposing server has people. Try it, please I think people get upset from the small percentage of mesmers who got very good at finding hiding spots, and staying unseen, but that should be commended, not nerfed. I’ve hidden in keeps many times, and sometimes I’ll hide out in an obvious area, and literally see my enemies walk right past me..I’m not stealthed, just standing there..I even wave, and they walk right past me.

Portaling golems isn’t bad for WvW, it’s good. it takes coordinate between the mesmers, and the golem pilots. Ive seen many portal parades ruined because of one bad mesmer. Why do so many people claim something needs a nerf when small groups get organized, and think, and do something skillful? So, before people once again start knocking mesmers for something which is so easily countered if you THINK, try playing a mesmer for a while, see how it works, and commend your opponents when they take your stuff out from under your nose.

It is bad.
It is harmful to the game.
“Golem rushing” is simply a way of avoiding PvP.

That, in fact, is the ONLY benefit to golems over any other siege method: they are the most likely way to let you capture a keep without engaging in PvP. Even if the enemy team is 100% on the ball with scouts on the outside doors and they see you coming and they alert the masses on a public teamspeak channel, you will have time to take any keep except maybe the EB home keep, before the enemy hordes can respond.

I will say it again:
Golems are for avoiding PvP.

They should be removed from the game. At the very least they should not be able to take mesmer portals.

just shows that scouting is really important

If golem rushing really worked as effectively as claimed, it would actually help small groups. In my experience, it doesn’t. Our zergs, more often than not, respond swiftly and accurately to small gang rushes and mop the floor with them. The only real place for the tactic is when you spot the out-manned buff on an enemy unit. Then you know you can attack without fear of being zerg crushed, assuming a large force doesn’t port in from another BL. It does show how stupid easy it is to take objectives in this game. Keeps and towers flip so often that many guilds don’t bother defending them. They let them flip and simply go and flip something else in return. The system doesn’t promote PvP, it actually discourages it. Fighting unmanned towers is a sure bet to win. Trying to stop someone from taking a tower isn’t. In fact, defenders are often at a sever disadvantage. The fact that you can attack one tower from the safety of another just adds to the stupidity.

It’s not bad for the game.

People shouldn’t expect their keeps to be safe always. And if people refuse to defend, they deserve to get their towers and keep turned to paper.

Is ‘x’ good for wvw? … eventually if Anet took all these threads, we would be running around bare handed literally trying to claw doors down. And the game would go stale fast. Offense if definately promoted in the game, why else would the timer flip at low points over fast time periods/intervals? If defense meant more, it’d ticket every hour or 3 hours for massive points, and people would just eventually sit, all sitting in keeps. Forever.

At least give us pointy sticks and stuff. It’s not the 80’s anymore … hell give me a captain america shield 1 day. Or a seige turtle, or anything fun. All the fun things always get stripped out over time. I’d rather us play with toys.

OP: It’s great for wvw- it releases another objective to be retaken 10 minutes later for more Wexp and karma by the zerg, and in the meantime the 8 man team has had their jollies and felt like they were making a difference.

Unless your server has a good supply of scouts on 24/7 or people willing to achieve almost nothing in the limited time they can spend online enjoying their leisure time then this tactic is a great one by the opposition.

Of all the tactics in WvW, the golem rush fails the most. It’s the last thing we should complain about.

We all know that nightcaps and zergs are the main problems at the moment, and Arenanet have stated that they are discussing ways of addressing both. Isn’t that all we can ask?

Golems are the reason you want to make sure the oil is constructed at keeps. and effective scouting will still spot a golem rush before it can get to the door and you can have your server defending outer or inner pretty quickly.

Svarty.8019:

Of all the tactics in WvW, the golem rush fails the most. It’s the last thing we should complain about.

We all know that nightcaps and zergs are the main problems at the moment, and Arenanet have stated that they are discussing ways of addressing both. Isn’t that all we can ask?

Night capping has absolutely no effect on anybody’s enjoyment of the game — the “points” are largely irrelevant despite the hardcore WvWers attempt to make them mean something.

All these people talking about scouts and defenders and oil are silly… there’s next to no reason to sit in a keep. It’s boring and only a handful of these same hardcore WvWers do it. The fun for most people is in responding to an attack with a defending force… or the suspense to take down a keep before the defense arrives or using tactics to keep the defenders at bay why you finish.

Anything that makes it likely there’s not even going to be a response is not going to positively impact the quality of fights or the fun factor out there. Includes these golem rushes and zergs so large and doors so weak they go down in seconds.

Slamz.5376:

It is bad.
It is harmful to the game.
“Golem rushing” is simply a way of avoiding PvP.

That, in fact, is the ONLY benefit to golems over any other siege method: they are the most likely way to let you capture a keep without engaging in PvP. Even if the enemy team is 100% on the ball with scouts on the outside doors and they see you coming and they alert the masses on a public teamspeak channel, you will have time to take any keep except maybe the EB home keep, before the enemy hordes can respond.

I will say it again:
Golems are for avoiding PvP.

They should be removed from the game. At the very least they should not be able to take mesmer portals.

This is the WvW section. PvP is that way —-————————->

All joking aside, there’s more to WvW than killing other players. Having strategic objectives (and having to think tactics to take and defend those objectives) is what sets WvW apart and makes it more fun than just dueling other players, IMHO.

Sieging a keep with rams and especially ranged siege tends to result in a serious battle.

Attacking a keep with golems is PvDoor and is used by groups that are too weak or incompetent to win a serious battle.

Golems add nothing good to the game.

8 people cannot take a tier 3 keep, it’s impossible unless.

There is no-one there to scout for 5 minutes, there is no-one to man the cannon/oil/siege for 5 minutes. Or there is no-one on the map full stop.

3 mesmers hazing 2 cannons and an oil will take them 5+ minutes to kill… if the golems are portaled to the gate while this is happening then I will happily man the cannon, and kill all the golems with several cannonballs.

What if they destroy the cannons and oil before they attack? Well that means you know they’re going to attack and you can tell everyone on the map about it as soon as you see the golems approaching.

Tier 3 keeps with heavy siege and people manning them are impossible to take, there is absolutely no other way to take these, except with a golem rush. There are key siege weapons that will counter a golem rush, but if you’re not willing to build and man them, that means you’re not willing to keep your structure. Why should you deserve to hold your keep if you’re not going to put any effort into it? The people building the golems, organizing portals and having 50 people escort them are certainly putting in the effort. And they can easily be countered if you put a little bit of effort in yourself.

The element of surprise is the most important thing in a golem rush, and if you see it coming and you are prepared, they will fail, no matter how hard they worked for it.

Golems are perfectly fine and they add another dimension to the game.

Just saw a group of our guys chasing one of our Omegas yesterday. yelling “GET OUT OF THERE!”, “PRESS 5!” etc.
It then got squashed by a Miller’s zerg after getting off 2 shots at Durios’ door.
The other 4 Omegas were sitting in our keep, and got then moed to SMC. Next step: Moving out, but not before someone asked for someone else to babysit his golem, cause he had to log out.
I was busy running arouns somewhere else, so I didn’t really get much of it. The golems were moving out to cap some keep, then suddenly in chat: “2 Omegas got lost. Need help.” “You not in TS?” “What?”…
Really, Drakkar Lake is such a bunch of scrubs… That’s why it’s kinda fun.

Draygo.9473:

Golems are the reason you want to make sure the oil is constructed at keeps. and effective scouting will still spot a golem rush before it can get to the door and you can have your server defending outer or inner pretty quickly.

That’s not my experience. Our guild has long-since adopted the policy that it’s a waste of supply to ever repair oil or cannons, because any one or at most two ranged DPS can AoE down whoever is using them before they can kill anything. We use superior arrow carts placed where they can’t be targeted from the ground. But if superior arrow carts don’t get “tickled” every half an hour, they evaporate, which makes them pretty useless against surprise attacks.

Back to my original topic: I guess it comes down to a difference of opinion as to how epic it should feel to (fill in the blank). I’m perfectly comfortable with one or two people being able to capture an unguarded supply camp in a couple of minutes. I’m reasonably comfortable with a break-out event flattening an unguarded tower in a couple of minutes. But my preference would be for sieging a fully upgraded keep or garrison to be something that it takes a large group, and a major investment of time, to pull off even if the only “people” guarding it are the NPCs. So any tactic that trivializes the capture of even the largest, heaviest, most fully upgraded structures on the map, anything that trivializes the capture of something that cost what, 8, 10 gold to upgrade so that it can be wrecked literally before anybody on the defending side can get in? Feels un-fun to me. Even when I’m the one doing it.

InfamousBrad.5879:

Draygo.9473:

Golems are the reason you want to make sure the oil is constructed at keeps. and effective scouting will still spot a golem rush before it can get to the door and you can have your server defending outer or inner pretty quickly.

That’s not my experience. Our guild has long-since adopted the policy that it’s a waste of supply to ever repair oil or cannons, because any one or at most two ranged DPS can AoE down whoever is using them before they can kill anything. We use superior arrow carts placed where they can’t be targeted from the ground. But if superior arrow carts don’t get “tickled” every half an hour, they evaporate, which makes them pretty useless against surprise attacks.

Back to my original topic: I guess it comes down to a difference of opinion as to how epic it should feel to (fill in the blank). I’m perfectly comfortable with one or two people being able to capture an unguarded supply camp in a couple of minutes. I’m reasonably comfortable with a break-out event flattening an unguarded tower in a couple of minutes. But my preference would be for sieging a fully upgraded keep or garrison to be something that it takes a large group, and a major investment of time, to pull off even if the only “people” guarding it are the NPCs. So any tactic that trivializes the capture of even the largest, heaviest, most fully upgraded structures on the map, anything that trivializes the capture of something that cost what, 8, 10 gold to upgrade so that it can be wrecked literally before anybody on the defending side can get in? Feels un-fun to me. Even when I’m the one doing it.

Well said. The epicness of the battles goes way down when it is so easy to take a structure.

If not for coordinated golem pushing, taking a keep can become impossible because of enemy wall coverage and short map distances to respond to catas/trebs.

Let me just post a quick counter strategy here, laid out as a situation:
1. Enemy rushes your gate with 5 golems, contests the keep
2. Someone runs to the keep, sees the golem
3. Reinforcements come
4. Epic free loot from the golems

if you are outnumbered, this whole point is moot, since whether it was 5 golems, or 5 rams, or 5 cata’s, it would have the same effect. If you have no scouts, or no sentries, this whole point is moot, since whether it was 5 golems, or 5 rams, or 5 cata’s, it would have the same effect. if you have no communication, this whole point is…well, you see where I’m going. Golem rushes are very easy to counter. It’s not like golems are invisible, or don’t contest keeps. If you don’t want to have sentries, or have scouts, and you don’t want to defend your OWN keep, why should be allowed it keep it? Even with TW’s, there is plenty of time to SEE the golems, and go kill them, even if it is in the lord room, or at inner gates. Most people who do golem rushes with small amount of people learn that a keep isn’t being sentried and take advantage of their opponent’s own neglect and lack of communication. It’s not them being OP, it’s the enemy being neglectful.