Guild Wars 2

Introduction:

I have been commanding for almost two years and I can tell you that when the original change to white swords was made where they gave them a delayed response on the mini-map I was already frustrated. Now that we are hearing about white swords being removed I am questioning the so-called “innovative WvW balance ideas” that are being proposed. I don’t want to come across as a “forum-basher” so I am sure that with this introduction I have made clear my feelings on the issue. Let me expand on why removing white swords is bad from a veteran commanders perspective. I am going to express the issues that I see arising as IF white swords being removed was actually implemented into WvW. Keep in mind that the issues I am presenting will compound and scale with lower tiers affecting them in worse ways than higher tiers (I am on Tier 1).

The Problems With Removing White Swords:

1. It punishes commanders who are diligently watching the mini-map and trying to make intelligent decisions based on what the map tells them (something that separates good commanders from mediocre ones).

From a commanders perspective, removing the white swords essentially doesn’t allow me to be rewarded for diligently scanning the mini-map and making decisions based upon what the map tells me. Being an efficient/refined commander takes a very long time and there is a lot of things to manage (the zerg, upgrades, supply, the mini-map, other maps, timers, open-field fights, etc., just to name a few). If I don’t have a way to respond to structures being attacked how am I supposed to be effective on defense?

2. It forces players to sentry which is BAD because it doesn’t allow those players to enjoy the actual WvW experience.

If I can’t as a commander rely on the mini-map to help me with the decision making process then I have to ask people to sit in towers or run mindlessly back-and-forth between different structures to make sure they aren’t being hit. By having them scout/sentry these players aren’t able to enjoy the best parts of WvW which are running with the server community, socializing, being a part of a team, and fighting the enemy on a massive scale. Not to mention, being a sentry at a tower/keep/camp (having your character sit in one tower and report when the enemy comes and drops siege on a gate or wall or goes for a camp, etc.) is BORING and its not actually playing the game as intended. We already have sentries for maps at times because server imbalance during different coverage zones forces us to have people watch fully-upgraded keeps with way points which is already unfortunate (although that’s an issue for another discussion).

3. In a world without white swords is you reduce the offensive zerg on the map and the interaction between players.

So as a commander, if I have to commit scouts/sentries to structures that’s even LESS people that are actively following my commander tag around the map and LESS people that are able to OFFENSIVELY contribute to the map. Not only does having permanent scouts/sentries hurt me as a commander with the size of my zerg it also hurts the player and their experience in WvW because instead of being able to play and interact with other players following me around they are stuck sitting in a structure or camp waiting for the possibility (not even guarantee) that an enemy will attack the structure or camp they are guarding.

4. It hurts havoc groups to not have white swords.

Often, white swords are an indication of a smaller force (unless a large zerg is very disciplined and doesn’t create orange swords). This allows havoc groups to engage in small-team fights which they enjoy. Most havoc groups focus on small objectives. As a WvW commander the most efficient thing I can do is send the least amount of people possible to clean up enemy attacks if it doesn’t require the zerg to respond. In most cases, this small group of people is a havoc group. I usually just ask in map/team chat for a havoc group to respond to the white swords and update me further so that I can continue to be offensive unless its necessary to bring the zerg. If you remove white swords, havoc groups will no longer be able to be a “quick reaction force” when white swords appear on structures which is bad because it is detrimental to me as a WvW commander to have to take the zerg back constantly for white swords when one person can tap everything and make the map look chaotic and there’s no reason for me to deal with one person (a micro-objective) when I am focused on macro-objectives. Additionally, its bad for the havoc group because it doesn’t give them the same purpose they have currently on the map. Although it may seem like a bad thing to have small groups be able to cause disruption on the mini-map, that is how they derive their power and it is what allows them to maintain importance.

5. Less people in my zerg hurts my offensive capabilities and defensive capabilities as a commander.

If I have less people following me because they are stuck being static scouts/sentries at the various owned structures then that means every fight I go into I have less offensive power, every enemy structure I attempt to take I have less supply at my disposal. The same goes for defense, I have less people to help defend a single location when I need as many people as possible to be there. I also have less supply to build siege to defend the structure because people are spread out being scouts/sentries and not enjoying WvW, or being able to contribute to the fight. It also reduces my zergs composition, removes players from the defensive and offensive experiences that would occur while I am leading, and the list goes on….

6. It takes purpose away from other strategic components of the WvW game-mode like Upgrades and Guards.

Everything, outside of way-pointed keeps, is going to be paper 80% of the time because no one is going to be able to defend everything being attacked efficiently. Also, the people who usually defend and upgrade are not going to waste their money because things will flip often, even tier 3 structures.

Guards are also going to be pointless, what is the point of having veteran scouts in the game mode anymore? What are they even giving us a scouting report on? Without some kind of indicator (white-swords) to let us know that something is being attacked they have no purpose.

Hopefully Anet will realize that removing white-swords effects the framework of the WvW game-mode.

Solution

So the question whenever presenting a problem is what is the offered solution?

Answer: Leave white swords how they are, its that simple. I hope I was able to illustrate just a few basic reasons why they are so crucial to the WvW game mode.

Instead of removing white swords, we should be looking at addressing how to not have people be scouts/sentries and allow them to play the game instead of having them sit in keeps or towers or camps in the first place. Players who scout/sentry aren’t able to enjoy WvW and aren’t rewarded for being a scouts/sentries in the first place. As a commander, not having a mini-map that I can interact with doesn’t allow me to make intelligent decisions based on what is happening on the map at any given time. If you remove white swords, in theory, I will need a player at every camp/tower/keep. That’s not even realistic for lower tiers where they don’t have the numbers and in tier 1 where I command there is no way that I can commit 8-12 people to standing in one place for hours and reducing my zergs size significantly. Nothing good can come from removing white swords.

An Important Side Note!

I had a Hugh Norfolk in my Guild for the “Adopt-A-Dev” program. It was a great experience and while I did suggest ideas to him, I can promise you not once did I suggest something as trivial as removing white swords to him because it punishes me as a commander and the player-base as a whole whether they are roamers, havoc groups, or zerglings.

Two of My Main Suggestions to My Adopted Dev, Hugh Norfolk

One of my suggestions was to increase the HP of siege and structures when you have the outnumbered/outmanned buff on any map by 33% so that when an enemy is attacking you with a 60 man blob and you have only 10 people on (because of a lack of population during YOUR servers low-coverage time-zone), you will probably still lose things, but you will lose them slower. Since the rate of decay during off-times would be reduced through this buff, under-populated coverage times would lose less PPT overall than they normally would and although it may not completely solve the current discrepancy of being outnumbered/outmanned it would certainly help with reducing PPT lost during these time zones. The importance of buffing siege/structures is that it doesn’t create imbalance in the game because it just adds more health to siege/structures which are neutral.

To supplement the first idea I had, I suggested that Anet provide more incentives to players who choose to play when outnumbered/outmanned because then they will stay on the maps which would also help raise PPT overall during low-population time-zones. As far as incentives, I figured that a 33% buff to WXP, XP, Karma (which already exists), Gold Find, and Magic Find, would entice players to stay on a map because the game is recognizing their loyalty to play during a time-zone that is less attractive and requires more hard work. I just wanted to throw this in at the end because I noticed a lot of negativity regarding the “Adopt-A-Dev” program and I though it was fantastic. As far as the ideas go, I don’t know if Hugh Norfolk conveyed any of what I proposed to the rest of the Anet team but I do know that we talked about it and he was kind enough to let me express my thoughts about WvW

All you needed to say was that it’s boring and doesn’t allow players to experience the best of wvw instead about all that stuff about how your blob ain’t big enough.

When this is implemented expect constant Golem rushes by overpopulated servers..
Bye bye trying to keep up with servers that have 3 times the numbers.

Anet has no clue about their own game and how people play it. I roam and scout and report 90% of time but dont think i can keep up with that if they remove white swords at all. Its already a pain to rally ppl to a structure under attack with them swords, now imagine it without. Constant flip fest, no one bothers to upgrade/siege anymore resulting in people simply leaving this game.

Might aswell remove walls and gates with the swords if this gets implemented to make it even more easier to flip for the rewards. They think this promotes defensive play, but its the other way around.

I like the idea of having people posted up in towers to defend. This may be a fun part of the WvW experience for some players, and having a need for defenders would allow people who enjoy this style of play to form organized groups/networks of their own that can work with commanders.

Not everyone thinks the zerg is the defining aspect of WvW. I’ve wanted Anet to do something that would promote taking on a more defensive style of play for a while and this may be a step in that direction.

SneakyLemon.8461:

I like the idea of having people posted up in towers to defend. This may be a fun part of the WvW experience for some players, and having a need for defenders would allow people who enjoy this style of play to form organized groups/networks of their own that can work with commanders.

Not everyone thinks the zerg is the defining aspect of WvW. I’ve wanted Anet to do something that would promote taking on a more defensive style of play for a while and this may be a step in that direction.

But is it really promoting defensive play styles? Whichever server already has the coverage advantage will only snowball further off of that advantage if white swords are removed.

Here’s the thing. The only servers that can afford to have scouts in every tower, are the servers that outnumber their opponents already. I’ll give you some anecdotal evidence of what I’m talking about.

On Borlis Pass right now, we are constantly outnumbered by whichever two servers we are fighting against. A simple look at the scores in the matchup would support that claim, so you can see it for yourself. BP simply cannot afford to leave scouts in every camp/tower/keep and spot enemy attacks effectively. The ONLY thing that allows the handful of players on BP still playing during these weeks (our “WvW” guilds have decided to tank, so they stopped playing) to respond to attacks is the ability to use the map and spot white swords.

You said “Not everyone thinks the zerg is the defining aspect of WvW.” Well clearly you don’t understand what promotes zerging, and what discourages it. You know siege disablers? Well those promote zerging. Go ahead and permanently disable a havoc groups siege when they try and take a paper tower. They can’t stick around forever while you hide behind walls. Now try the same to a 60 man zerg. The zerg doesn’t care, it can PvD your gate down. Apply this same general concept of Zerg vs Small group comparison to white swords. A zerg will move even faster through enemy territory without the ability of being spotted via white swords. All they have to do is make sure not to pop orange swords, and they’re in the clear for running a pretty spectacular k-train. This change would basically forcefully turn regular WvW into a new EotM, allowing karma trains to take advantage of weaker servers’ inability to respond properly to attacks.

It’s silly. It’s absolutely silly that his idea was ever even though of, let alone allowed to pass this far into the realm of possibilities that game devs posted it on these forums. If they care at all about WvW, this change will not happen.

I should have said ‘not everyone thinks the zerg should be the defining aspect of WvW’.

While this change might not be the right one, I am happy Anet is at least trying different things out.

Deli.1302:

All you needed to say was that it’s boring and doesn’t allow players to experience the best of wvw instead about all that stuff about how your blob ain’t big enough.

To have a credible argument you actually have to illustrate your reasons behind your thought (which is why everything is expanded). As far as your point about me writing this because “my blob ain’t big enough,” you’re wrong about that. I wrote my thoughts about the change to white swords to try and show that although for me it will effect the size of my zerg, this issue will scale as you go down to lower tiers and when they are already struggling to field half of what higher tiers do, taking the few people they have and forcing them to be committed to being scouts/sentries essentially won’t allow them to ever establish themselves as a presence on the map. I’m sorry you couldn’t figure that out on your own… -_-

SneakyLemon.8461:

I like the idea of having people posted up in towers to defend. This may be a fun part of the WvW experience for some players, and having a need for defenders would allow people who enjoy this style of play to form organized groups/networks of their own that can work with commanders.

Not everyone thinks the zerg is the defining aspect of WvW. I’ve wanted Anet to do something that would promote taking on a more defensive style of play for a while and this may be a step in that direction.

I don’t think that WvW is all about the zerg either. That would be way too one-dimensional. I am just explaining the elements of WvW which I feel will be affected by changing white swords. I never said that zerging was all that there was to WvW. I appreciate scouts/sentries but they come in limited numbers and my point was that most people would prefer to not scout/sentry for hours on end.

The removal of white swords WILL NOT increase the number of players enjoying WvW. Trying to force people to scout is dangerous.

The removal of white swords WILL NOT increase gem sales.

Choose which ever answer motivates you more but do not remove white swords.

SneakyLemon.8461:

I like the idea of having people posted up in towers to defend. This may be a fun part of the WvW experience for some players, and having a need for defenders would allow people who enjoy this style of play to form organized groups/networks of their own that can work with commanders.

Not everyone thinks the zerg is the defining aspect of WvW. I’ve wanted Anet to do something that would promote taking on a more defensive style of play for a while and this may be a step in that direction.

I have spent a few thousand hrs in WvW. I tend to roam or scout, I respond to white swords, moving /missing sentries etc way before map chat. I am known for spending long hrs watching our BL.

IMHO, the removal of white swords in an attempt to force scouting, will kill off more scouts than it creates. As someone who enjoys WvW, I hope desperately that I am wrong.

Dubain

Can you link me to the source about this change? I would like to read about it before responding here.

rhapsody.3615:

Can you link me to the source about this change? I would like to read about it before responding here.

The “Adopt-a-Dev” thread:

Hello All,

There was quite a lot of discussion around the proposal of removing white swords from objectives in WvW. We understand there are concerns about how this change might work in practice or how player behavior may change as a result of it. We felt like the best way to understand fully the impact, and give players a chance to see for themselves how it directly changes the WvW experience is to let people try it and see what they think.

We have decided to run a special multi-week event in WvW where we’ll be changing some of the “rules” of WvW for a limited time. This event will feature two major rule changes while it is running: we are planning to remove white swords from objectives, and add points per kill in WvW to the over-all score for the duration of this event. We are currently targeting December for this event but will keep you posted when we have dates nailed down for certain. If this type of event is successful, we may look to do more events like this in the future where for short periods of time the rules of WvW are changed to different rules, scoring and scenarios to help both keep the game fresh, as well as to change up the experience and try new fun things for WvW.

We look forward to your feedback once the event begins, both on the temporary event only changes, as well as the concept of these special events in WvW.

Thanks,
John

I call BS on the 1st paragraph… we DO know how it will work, no testing is needed.

Seems like a lot of you share my same concerns, its nice to see that even different servers are worried about removing white swords and players who dabble in different group sizes =D

Hopefully Anet takes our thoughts and concerns into consideration.

all it will do is make defending, upgrading and siege-ing structures even more pointless as well as reward the stupid karma train pvd where you have to assign scouts everywhere which weakens the defending party even more…seriously just call it EoTM 1.5

My role on my current server is that of a scout and home defense roamer. I frequently respond to white swords which allows my server (Ehmry Bay) to move around other maps without having to worry about sitting a player in every single tower and/or keep. During the day there are times that lower populated servers have anywhere from 0-10 players on a map. Just today there was a time that our active WvW population between all 4 maps could probably have been counted on my fingers and toes. The only way we can be competitive with servers like Gates of Madness and Darkhaven is if our tenacious defenders can respond to attacks within a reasonable amount of time.

I support the points per kill change being made but not the removal of white swords. We are in Tier 6 and we don’t have the population to protect our objectives and many servers are smaller than us. The original poster is from one of the Tier 1 servers and he sees this as a terrible idea. I understand that this is temporary but if you change it how will you determine whether the change was beneficial? Most match-ups are blowouts due to coverage problems already and those that are close now are being skewed by the Holiday content (how will December be effected by Wintersday?) and the end of the tournament resulting in players taking time off.

As a roamer and defender it will be a lost cause for me to stay on our home Borderland and try to defend when I have no idea what is going on. It is already possible to flip unupgraded camps in under 2 minutes even with characters made for support. The delay on the white swords makes it nearly impossible to respond to these players as it is if you don’t have upgraded keeps. Clever travel through the terrain and mixing up objectives makes it even harder to respond to attackers as it is.

I think this change will seriously turn WvW into EoTM. Smaller servers won’t be able to respond to objectives being hit and they will stop upgrading objectives making them easier to flip. The larger server with a superior population will be able to post scouts and will put an end to the smaller servers offensives. If the group inside decides to use siege they can easily stomp the smaller force and take advantage of the PPK change. This in turn will decrease the amount of players that log in for the smaller server. Every one of these things makes the problem worse not better.

I thought I saw a list of where all the developers went during the adopt-a-dev thing. I believe only 2 of the plethora of developers were in Bronze Tier and one of them was on Darkhaven (arguably the strongest of the bronze tier servers) the other was on Eredon Terrace. I urge you strongly to talk to that developer. He/She alone would have an idea of how this will effect the state of WvW entirely.

Scryeless.1924:

Why are there so many 98 year old crusties on these forums. Everyone should be open to small changes here and there just to see how things play out and what we can learn from them. Will trying out one week of no white swords really kill everyone and their families? Will the world be set ablaze? Will we all instantly be impregnated? One or two weeks. Give it a try. Then give feedback.

I hope I see you scouting for the ‘trial’ period then I honestly would rather do EOTM during this ‘testing’ period when white swords are removed.

Asking someone to scout a fully capped borderland with siege is ok/necessary but even that is tedious. I hate asking people to scout and most often it’s the same 5-10 people that volunteer to scout because it’s a THANKLESS/BORING job. People want to actually play the game & move around. They do not want to AFK or patrol like NPCs during the short amount of playtime they have…

Speaking of patrols: Instead of give less indicators, give us more! You know those useless patrols we hire at keeps? Give them a range where they will detect enemy players and put them up as ‘red’ dots on the map or some kind of message will appear on map chat that enemy (with count if possible) is spotted near watergate for example or sw of garry etc…. Give scouts/defense more tools.. not less.

Luvpie.8350:

Speaking of patrols: Instead of give less indicators, give us more! You know those useless patrols we hire at keeps? Give them a range where they will detect enemy players and put them up as ‘red’ dots on the map or some kind of message will appear on map chat that enemy (with count if possible) is spotted near watergate for example or sw of garry etc…. Give scouts/defense more tools.. not less.

we used to have that, but the devs arbitrarily decided to take that away without consulting us and without a trial period (orange swords for 5+ people, instant white swords). we of lower tiers expressed our displeasure at these changes, but if anet listened… well they never even responded, much less backtracked.

and then after nerfing “first response,” they also buffed ram and cata damage by 50%.

the 30s delay on white swords is mostly useless already.
We see white swords, how long have they been up? Ask in TS and map chat for a scout report? Maybe half a minute later the scout responds… yup there is about 15 hitting the tower! Group decides to defend the tower but it flips right before we get there and we see 3 superior rams on a wooden gate.
Unless you happen to be nearby when the swords pop there’s not enough time to respond anyway. To make defending worth while, upgrades are needed which require players walking yaks (or just dumb luck), siege placed in smart locations and a dedicated scout to sit in the tower.
Swords on supply camps are pointless also. Only case where they work is for the tower scout nearest the supply camp and its a bad solo having a hard time clearing upgraded guards. Or when its npc mercs with out the player.
The situations I describe are for EBG where objectives are located closer together decreasing travel time, in the borderlands its pointless and frustrating chasing white swords.
There are guild groups who can take a t3 garri before white swords even pop.
I think the most of us wvw players are upset cause this change, likely inconsequential, appears to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how we relate to wvw.

Synosius.9876:

the 30s delay on white swords is mostly useless already.
We see white swords, how long have they been up? Ask in TS and map chat for a scout report? Maybe half a minute later the scout responds… yup there is about 15 hitting the tower! Group decides to defend the tower but it flips right before we get there and we see 3 superior rams on a wooden gate.
Unless you happen to be nearby when the swords pop there’s not enough time to respond anyway. To make defending worth while, upgrades are needed which require players walking yaks (or just dumb luck), siege placed in smart locations and a dedicated scout to sit in the tower.
Swords on supply camps are pointless also. Only case where they work is for the tower scout nearest the supply camp and its a bad solo having a hard time clearing upgraded guards. Or when its npc mercs with out the player.
The situations I describe are for EBG where objectives are located closer together decreasing travel time, in the borderlands its pointless and frustrating chasing white swords.
There are guild groups who can take a t3 garri before white swords even pop.
I think the most of us wvw players are upset cause this change, likely inconsequential, appears to be a fundamental misunderstanding of how we relate to wvw.

Maybe if you’re not paying attention to the mini-map. That’s my job as a commander so I check it a lot like its the rear view mirror of a vehicle (as I stated in my original post) which is exactly why indicators such as white swords are so vital to the WvW game mode. I can understand losing a paper tower every so often but I cannot recall losing structures tier 2 or above at a rate worth mentioning because its just so rare.

Luvpie.8350:

Scryeless.1924:

Why are there so many 98 year old crusties on these forums. Everyone should be open to small changes here and there just to see how things play out and what we can learn from them. Will trying out one week of no white swords really kill everyone and their families? Will the world be set ablaze? Will we all instantly be impregnated? One or two weeks. Give it a try. Then give feedback.

I hope I see you scouting for the ‘trial’ period then I honestly would rather do EOTM during this ‘testing’ period when white swords are removed.

Asking someone to scout a fully capped borderland with siege is ok/necessary but even that is tedious. I hate asking people to scout and most often it’s the same 5-10 people that volunteer to scout because it’s a THANKLESS/BORING job. People want to actually play the game & move around. They do not want to AFK or patrol like NPCs during the short amount of playtime they have…

Speaking of patrols: Instead of give less indicators, give us more! You know those useless patrols we hire at keeps? Give them a range where they will detect enemy players and put them up as ‘red’ dots on the map or some kind of message will appear on map chat that enemy (with count if possible) is spotted near watergate for example or sw of garry etc…. Give scouts/defense more tools.. not less.

Ah Luvpie another person who’s commanded long enough to have arguments supplemented with long-term experience. I agree with all your points even though we have historically always been enemies.

Berk.8561:

Scryeless.1924:

Why are there so many 98 year old crusties on these forums. Everyone should be open to small changes here and there just to see how things play out and what we can learn from them. Will trying out one week of no white swords really kill everyone and their families? Will the world be set ablaze? Will we all instantly be impregnated? One or two weeks. Give it a try. Then give feedback.

I’ve said that I’m fine with the testing, but the problem is that many people see this as something like suggesting that one sticking their hand in a fire to see if it will really hurt or not. Everyone is pretty sure this will be a terrible idea and have explained why in great detail, and the justification for doing it has been weak, at best.

Precisely, instead of working on things in WvW we aren’t asking for they could focus on using community ideas that they like that are actually requested in mass.

Scryeless.1924:

Why are there so many 98 year old crusties on these forums. Everyone should be open to small changes here and there just to see how things play out and what we can learn from them. Will trying out one week of no white swords really kill everyone and their families? Will the world be set ablaze? Will we all instantly be impregnated? One or two weeks. Give it a try. Then give feedback.

We are here to keep you guys from feeding Anet bad ideas <3 I am all for the change where kills grant points because that’s been a suggestion for a long time that is logical. We should be rewarded for killing the enemy. We shouldn’t however, be punished for being able to respond the mini-map and its indicators which is what removing white swords from the map accomplishes…

MomentofWeakness.1246:

Precisely, instead of working on things in WvW we aren’t asking for they could focus on using community ideas that they like that are actually requested in mass.

I’m guessing that part of the attraction of removing the white swords for the developers is that it’s a very easy change to code, Probably just a matter of commenting out a few lines of code or setting the delay really high.

Svarty.8019:

Scryeless.1924:

Why are there so many 98 year old crusties on these forums. Everyone should be open to small changes here and there just to see how things play out and what we can learn from them. Will trying out one week of no white swords really kill everyone and their families? Will the world be set ablaze? Will we all instantly be impregnated? One or two weeks. Give it a try. Then give feedback.

I agree, but I fear that the players will make this a self-fulfilling prophecy – that for two weeks they will refuse to even try. We’ll see, but I am still confident they will be proven foolish in their cynicism. I expect full and frank apologies from each and every one of you afterwards!

When have any change only lasted for only two weeks??? It’s been my experience that once it’s done, it’s done.
The “old crusties” know the value and enjoyment of achieving something through tenacity, teamwork and fortitude as well as most of the non “old crusties”.
Some people!!! D8 D8 D8

SneakyLemon.8461:

I like the idea of having people posted up in towers to defend. This may be a fun part of the WvW experience for some players, and having a need for defenders would allow people who enjoy this style of play to form organized groups/networks of their own that can work with commanders.

Not everyone thinks the zerg is the defining aspect of WvW. I’ve wanted Anet to do something that would promote taking on a more defensive style of play for a while and this may be a step in that direction.

What? Name one person who plays GW2 and their most fun moment is to just sit in a tower. That makes zero sense.

Some people do love to defend, and that is different than just randomly sitting in a tower. They enjoy the strategy of trying to defend when someone is attacking.

Horrible idea by ANET. This is just another example of dumbing down the game.

Scryeless.1924:

Why are there so many 98 year old crusties on these forums. Everyone should be open to small changes here and there just to see how things play out and what we can learn from them. Will trying out one week of no white swords really kill everyone and their families? Will the world be set ablaze? Will we all instantly be impregnated? One or two weeks. Give it a try. Then give feedback.

I don’t need to jump off a bridge to know that it will kill me. Sometimes it is easy to predict the outcome.

That said, I think you missed the whole point of the conversation. Yes, it is a good idea to try new changes. It is NOT a good idea to implement bad ones. This is a horrible idea.

Svarty.8019:

Scryeless.1924:

Why are there so many 98 year old crusties on these forums. Everyone should be open to small changes here and there just to see how things play out and what we can learn from them. Will trying out one week of no white swords really kill everyone and their families? Will the world be set ablaze? Will we all instantly be impregnated? One or two weeks. Give it a try. Then give feedback.

I agree, but I fear that the players will make this a self-fulfilling prophecy – that for two weeks they will refuse to even try. We’ll see, but I am still confident they will be proven foolish in their cynicism. I expect full and frank apologies from each and every one of you afterwards!

I laughed reading this. The whole idea of “trials periods” for features is funny seeing as how they’ve had so many people playing and testing their game for over two years who’ve provided commonly themed paragraphs of thoughts and suggestions and Anet has just carried on doing their own thing while tossing out dead end CDI threads and canned corporate responses. Nah, but this is the one, this time, now that the mode has declined to within an inch of it’s life it’ll be different! Pinky swear!

MomentofWeakness.1246:

stuff

Disclaimer. These are my opinions. I don’t pretend to speak for anyone but myself.

“It punishes commanders who are diligently watching the mini-map and trying to make intelligent decisions based on what the map tells them”

Instead, the OP wants to punish commanders who are excellent leaders and able to organize effective scouts from a disciplined player base …

I suggest that the top shelf commanders don’t try to make intelligent decisions they take proactive steps to make sure their decisions are intelligent.

“If I don’t have a way to respond to structures being attacked how am I supposed to be effective on defense?”

You do. They’re called scouts and scout rotations.

“ It forces players to sentry which is BAD because it doesn’t allow those players to enjoy the actual WvW experience … by running with the server community, socializing, being a part of a team, and fighting the enemy on a massive scale. “

That gross generalisation depends – of course – on what it is that you enjoy from the WvW experience. Zerging? Roaming? Yak slapping? Havoc? I know players who punch well above their individual weight for server success because they like scouting, sieging up, running yaks etc. Bishy I’m looking at you.

But the real point is that scouting is part of the WvW experience. It is being part of a community and a team. In fact, it’s being a MASSIVE part of the community because the server benefits disproportionately from their service.

The same applies to thieves who tag the enemy zerg, reporting its movements. That’s scouting. By the OP’s argument that’s not the “WvW experience”. The same applies to yak slappers who disrupt supply. The same applies to small groups who gain BL. The same applies to people who flip camps. These people are leveraging a blob, increasing its strength and representing what passes for complexity in the GW2 WvW space.

And even for those players who don’t enjoy scouting, as the commander you or your delegate are responsible to get an effective, minimal impact rotation going. If you can’t organize that, then why should the game give you welfare information? Hell, why not just make all players from all sides visible on the mini-map? That would make the job of “veteran" commanders even easier.

In my opinion, the effective running of scouts – including cross map in no queue times – is one of the things that separates the truly great commanders from the mediocre. The fact that ANet doesn’t reward scouting (among other things) properly is a separate issue.

I suggest removing white swords from Tier 1 – they’re a crutch.

style.6173:

SneakyLemon.8461:

I like the idea of having people posted up in towers to defend. This may be a fun part of the WvW experience for some players, and having a need for defenders would allow people who enjoy this style of play to form organized groups/networks of their own that can work with commanders.

Not everyone thinks the zerg is the defining aspect of WvW. I’ve wanted Anet to do something that would promote taking on a more defensive style of play for a while and this may be a step in that direction.

What? Name one person who plays GW2 and their most fun moment is to just sit in a tower. That makes zero sense.

Some people do love to defend, and that is different than just randomly sitting in a tower. They enjoy the strategy of trying to defend when someone is attacking.

Horrible idea by ANET. This is just another example of dumbing down the game.

I enjoy running supply/sieging a place up/upgrading/keeping watch.

SneakyLemon.8461:

style.6173:

SneakyLemon.8461:

I like the idea of having people posted up in towers to defend. This may be a fun part of the WvW experience for some players, and having a need for defenders would allow people who enjoy this style of play to form organized groups/networks of their own that can work with commanders.

Not everyone thinks the zerg is the defining aspect of WvW. I’ve wanted Anet to do something that would promote taking on a more defensive style of play for a while and this may be a step in that direction.

What? Name one person who plays GW2 and their most fun moment is to just sit in a tower. That makes zero sense.

Some people do love to defend, and that is different than just randomly sitting in a tower. They enjoy the strategy of trying to defend when someone is attacking.

Horrible idea by ANET. This is just another example of dumbing down the game.

I enjoy running supply/sieging a place up/upgrading/keeping watch.

I also enjoy it, however without white swords you can lose it when you run supplies or checking on a camps upgrades.

style.6173:

What? Name one person who plays GW2 and their most fun moment is to just sit in a tower. That makes zero sense.

Some people do love to defend, and that is different than just randomly sitting in a tower. They enjoy the strategy of trying to defend when someone is attacking.

As someone who does a lot of defensive play and scouting, I agree with this. Defensive play can be fun (though not rewarding — it usually costs me gold to play that way) if I can roam around and manage a few objectives (a couple of towers, a camp, and a keep), constantly moving between them and maybe running some dolyaks, and it can be fun when the enemy attacks and tests whatever defenses have been put in place. But just sitting in a tower waiting is not fun and I rely on the white swords to know if I need to run back to an objective I’m not currently sitting in to see what’s going on.

The only tower that’s somewhat entertaining to camp in is Quentin Lake, because one can build a ballista (and use the mortar, if there is one) near the lord’s room that overlooks the hylek camp and use it to (A) get the hyleks on your team, (B) neutralize the hyleks if another team has them, and © take out enemy players either trying to get the hylek or neutralize them. With ballista mastery and/or a superior ballista, it’s not hard to do enough damage, even if there is nobody down there and the hylek are quick healing, to kill the hylek or krait and you can get rewards for the kills and events. It’s sort of like fishing off the back of the tower. I wish more towers had something like that to do while camping them.

Offair.2563:

SneakyLemon.8461:

style.6173:

SneakyLemon.8461:

I like the idea of having people posted up in towers to defend. This may be a fun part of the WvW experience for some players, and having a need for defenders would allow people who enjoy this style of play to form organized groups/networks of their own that can work with commanders.

Not everyone thinks the zerg is the defining aspect of WvW. I’ve wanted Anet to do something that would promote taking on a more defensive style of play for a while and this may be a step in that direction.

What? Name one person who plays GW2 and their most fun moment is to just sit in a tower. That makes zero sense.

Some people do love to defend, and that is different than just randomly sitting in a tower. They enjoy the strategy of trying to defend when someone is attacking.

Horrible idea by ANET. This is just another example of dumbing down the game.

I enjoy running supply/sieging a place up/upgrading/keeping watch.

I also enjoy it, however without white swords you can lose it when you run supplies or checking on a camps upgrades.

This^^. Again NO ONE enjoys just sitting in a tower. They enjoy doing other actions.

Depending on the yak route, without the whites swords, a zerg can be halfway into the tower without you knowing it. This change FORCES people to sit in a tower. That’s why it is a bad idea.

Cuddlepie.8109:

Disclaimer. These are my opinions. I don’t pretend to speak for anyone but myself.

“It punishes commanders who are diligently watching the mini-map and trying to make intelligent decisions based on what the map tells them”

Instead, the OP wants to punish commanders who are excellent leaders and able to organize effective scouts from a disciplined player base …

I suggest that the top shelf commanders don’t try to make intelligent decisions they take proactive steps to make sure their decisions are intelligent.

“If I don’t have a way to respond to structures being attacked how am I supposed to be effective on defense?”

You do. They’re called scouts and scout rotations.
I suggest removing white swords from Tier 1 – they’re a crutch.

I copied as much of your posting as I could but length limits confined me a bit, it’s okay though what you say outside of what I quoted is just garbage anyhow

The biggest problem with everything you said is that you basically are in support of a system wherein there is forced scouting and sentries. I am NOT a commander who wants to force people how to enjoy WvW when they enter any of the four WvW maps. That being said and you clearly must have missed me saying this, “I appreciate people who scout, sentry, havoc, manage upgrades, walk yaks, or do anything else outside the zerg on the map that assists the overall objectives on the map.” BUT I DON’T believe any player should ever be forced to do any of those things. We all paid for this game and have different amounts of time we can commit to the game. It is important to remember that, so what I was arguing is that people should be able to enjoy their WvW experience in any form and capacity that they desire rather than it be *forced upon them. I guess you missed the mark on my main point..

People should enjoy WvW however they want to and my point is that removing white swords is going to force people to scout/sentry whether they want to or not in order for the zerg to be effective on a map. Telling me that setting up scouts and rotations is the best way to be effective in WvW is basically saying that I have to ask people to scout and make people do it for specified amounts of time. I DON’T agree with that type of system and I am effective in Tier 1 without needing to force people to anything for long periods of time (20 minutes +). It’s lazy as a commander to leave someone else to do YOUR job when you can have a proactive player-base while you are tagged up which is more enjoyable for everyone and allows more people to experience WvW with you or in another capacity on the map. By having everyone following me work together to watch the map or map(s) (if you are running the skeleton crew), I never need to have scouts who are static at locations or have scouting rotations, it just isn’t necessary. I also accomplish the task of identifying what triggered white swords at a location by sending one person to check them out or if I see in the map/team chat that there is an enemy group somewhere I might proactively send someone to a location before white swords are ever triggered based on that information which gives me extra time to react. Along with that, I talk with my havoc groups or other guild groups on the map through chat or VoiP comms to see if they have any information to pass my way. This same system works for upgrades and other things and I am just giving you a few examples, not every single tactic I use.

The one thing I agree with you about is that scouts do a great service for any map they are on during WvW but I disagree with how you actually go about scouting. Of course I still get people who sentry locations on the map and I appreciate them greatly but I ALWAYS tell them they don’t have to be there because I care more as a commander about the people following me enjoying themselves than doing “work.” I believe you can accomplish both at the same time. The game is supposed to be fun first and foremost, obviously work is involved but it should be accomplished in a way that is enjoyable and allows players to feel like they gain something from it that is easily seen.

To sum it up, in YOUR world where forcing scouting is necessary you are telling people how to play the game. That in and of itself is the wrong way to go about WvW because you DON’T ever want your player-base to feel like they have to do something, you want your player-base to have options and the freedom to make their own decisions and play the game however they enjoy it. I DON’T care about a “disciplined player-base” as you call it, I care about a happy player-base who did what they wanted when they logged in.

Cuddlepie.8109:

MomentofWeakness.1246:

stuff

Disclaimer. These are my opinions. I don’t pretend to speak for anyone but myself.

“It punishes commanders who are diligently watching the mini-map and trying to make intelligent decisions based on what the map tells them”

Instead, the OP wants to punish commanders who are excellent leaders and able to organize effective scouts from a disciplined player base …

…..

I stopped reading there.

/facepalm

gennyt.3428:

Cuddlepie.8109:

MomentofWeakness.1246:

stuff

Disclaimer. These are my opinions. I don’t pretend to speak for anyone but myself.

“It punishes commanders who are diligently watching the mini-map and trying to make intelligent decisions based on what the map tells them”

Instead, the OP wants to punish commanders who are excellent leaders and able to organize effective scouts from a disciplined player base …

…..

I stopped reading there.

/facepalm

Lol, yeah Cuddlepie is acting like you guys are robots… I don’t want a bunch of automatons following me… I want people to have the freedom to have FUN however they choose in WvW, with or without me

Cuddlepie.8109:

MomentofWeakness.1246:

stuff

snip garbage

It is Anet’s job to make roles like sentrying more rewarding if they’re expecting people to keep doing it after 2 years.

lol I love the people that assume every server has their population. You can’t just implement something in JUST t1 that’s not how it works – just like you can’t reward t1 servers better crap than you do t8.

Scouting is great and all for servers who have the manpower to do so.

Syryn.7591:

lol I love the people that assume every server has their population. You can’t just implement something in JUST t1 that’s not how it works – just like you can’t reward t1 servers better crap than you do t8.

Scouting is great and all for servers who have the manpower to do so.

I agree, which is why I wrote this post. Its unrealistic and damaging to the game-mode to remove white swords even in tier 1, let alone in lower tiers where population is more scarce.

While I am very obviously against the long term removal of white swords I would like to ackknowledge a few points.

I appreciate that some guilds/servers pride themselves on being able to organise 24/7 scout teams. I acknowledge that regardless of my opinions I SHOULD play to my best during the short term trial to be able to provide worthwhile feedback.

Moving on, in line with the idea of trying things as a means of refreshing the WvW experience I propose the following;

A two week trial of Asuran characters gaining 200% speed boost, during this period only Asura would score points for kills, and

A following two week trial period of minion master necros gaining 200% toughness, 200% condition damage . During this period only groups containing minion masters will score points for kills.

I am willing to trial both these changes in order to test them and give feedback on how they improved/worsened WvW for me.

Hi. I’m from Yak’s Bend. We have a fair number of dedicated scout and siege taggers, allowing us to respond fairly quickly to threats. We devised a system where commanders instantly know where the keep scouts are.

Even with all of that, I don’t think the removal of white sword’s a good idea. For one, 1 scout won’t be enough to cover a keep anymore. You can be moving around tagging siege, with a wall down before you even realise what’s happening.

It then only takes one troll to blame the scout for people to turn people off from guarding altogether. With these changes there’s still no reward for those guards/scouts.
Will the defense event pop at all? If not, even less reward for defenders.

Also, does this mean that waypoints will not be contested? I always thought that wp contesting was an interesting part of WvW tactics myself.

style.6173:

Offair.2563:

SneakyLemon.8461:

style.6173:

SneakyLemon.8461:

I like the idea of having people posted up in towers to defend. This may be a fun part of the WvW experience for some players, and having a need for defenders would allow people who enjoy this style of play to form organized groups/networks of their own that can work with commanders.

Not everyone thinks the zerg is the defining aspect of WvW. I’ve wanted Anet to do something that would promote taking on a more defensive style of play for a while and this may be a step in that direction.

What? Name one person who plays GW2 and their most fun moment is to just sit in a tower. That makes zero sense.

Some people do love to defend, and that is different than just randomly sitting in a tower. They enjoy the strategy of trying to defend when someone is attacking.

Horrible idea by ANET. This is just another example of dumbing down the game.

I enjoy running supply/sieging a place up/upgrading/keeping watch.

I also enjoy it, however without white swords you can lose it when you run supplies or checking on a camps upgrades.

This^^. Again NO ONE enjoys just sitting in a tower. They enjoy doing other actions.

Depending on the yak route, without the whites swords, a zerg can be halfway into the tower without you knowing it. This change FORCES people to sit in a tower. That’s why it is a bad idea.

Amen.

I think who ever had this idea thought it would be a great thing for people that keep asking for “stuff for small groups to do”, truth is, if this is implemented it will do A LOT more harm than good.

Just remember ANet redesigned the center of the BLs into something beautiful so small groups could wrestle the objectives from each other and actually create an impact across the maps (in the form of a very desirable buff) everything they always begged for.
Result? No one ever steps in the middle unless they are crossing it to get somewhere else, it’s a mostly ignored mechanic which is surprising considering all the threads made asking for something like this…

So if ANet has this idea that some people are actually going to enjoy sitting on some objectives, they have something else coming, people that do that already are mostly AFK, not guarding anything.

And speaking of that, I’d love some aggressive kicking when there’s a queue to get in a map, how often do I see a queue of 30+ and when I finally get in there’s some 20 guys afk between home and keep? Too often.

Now the OP had a good idea here of having the outnumbered buff increase the HP of the objectives, on that line the whole buff should be revised to be something serious giving toughness and HP for example because right now it’s not doing anything.

Pretty Pixie.8603:

Hi. I’m from Yak’s Bend. We have a fair number of dedicated scout and siege taggers, allowing us to respond fairly quickly to threats. We devised a system where commanders instantly know where the keep scouts are.

Even with all of that, I don’t think the removal of white sword’s a good idea. For one, 1 scout won’t be enough to cover a keep anymore. You can be moving around tagging siege, with a wall down before you even realise what’s happening.

It then only takes one troll to blame the scout for people to turn people off from guarding altogether. With these changes there’s still no reward for those guards/scouts.
Will the defense event pop at all? If not, even less reward for defenders.

Also, does this mean that waypoints will not be contested? I always thought that wp contesting was an interesting part of WvW tactics myself.

i highly doubt they will remove the defense event or the waypoint contest. you will know when an objective is under attack, but only if you are in that objective. removing white swords removes the call to action for the rest of the map.

I’m am not a hard core WvW player and I have to admit I am not up to date with all the suggestions proposed for fixing various aspects of WvW. But as I was reading some of the posts above it made me think about white swords and this whole scouting thing and how boring and unrewarding is (I’ve done it a few times).

So then this crossed my mind (maybe it was proposed before idk). Why not have an upgradable option to the structure that creates an NPC scout (apart from the scout guards already present) that would advise of enemy attacks in some way (map message, beep on the minimap …idk something). Wouldn’t than be better than figuring out how to reward real players for idling in a tower for hours and hours?

My 2 cents…

MomentofWeakness.1246:

An Important Side Note!

I had a Hugh Norfolk in my Guild for the “Adopt-A-Dev” program. It was a great experience and while I did suggest ideas to him, I can promise you not once did I suggest something as trivial as removing white swords to him because it punishes me as a commander and the player-base as a whole whether they are roamers, havoc groups, or zerglings.

Two of My Main Suggestions to My Adopted Dev, Hugh Norfolk

One of my suggestions was to increase the HP of siege and structures when you have the outnumbered/outmanned buff on any map by 33% so that when an enemy is attacking you with a 60 man blob and you have only 10 people on (because of a lack of population during YOUR servers low-coverage time-zone), you will probably still lose things, but you will lose them slower. Since the rate of decay during off-times would be reduced through this buff, under-populated coverage times would lose less PPT overall than they normally would and although it may not completely solve the current discrepancy of being outnumbered/outmanned it would certainly help with reducing PPT lost during these time zones. The importance of buffing siege/structures is that it doesn’t create imbalance in the game because it just adds more health to siege/structures which are neutral.

To supplement the first idea I had, I suggested that Anet provide more incentives to players who choose to play when outnumbered/outmanned because then they will stay on the maps which would also help raise PPT overall during low-population time-zones. As far as incentives, I figured that a 33% buff to WXP, XP, Karma (which already exists), Gold Find, and Magic Find, would entice players to stay on a map because the game is recognizing their loyalty to play during a time-zone that is less attractive and requires more hard work. I just wanted to throw this in at the end because I noticed a lot of negativity regarding the “Adopt-A-Dev” program and I though it was fantastic. As far as the ideas go, I don’t know if Hugh Norfolk conveyed any of what I proposed to the rest of the Anet team but I do know that we talked about it and he was kind enough to let me express my thoughts about WvW

mate, u let him play hambow in “guild raids” what you know about wvw?))

And he still thinks that taking SM on headstart aftre reset is actually good for PPT? Or you thinking like that aswell?

It’s great that u have such dev in your guild, but from videos of Hugh i understood that u play pugblobs and ok with hamboy.

Much love.

Well done OP. You predicted ahead of time what ANET could not.

The more informed and mobile a blob is, the more effective.

If WvW is ever going to be less blobby, the blob needs to be less effective.