Guild Wars 2

Did you even read this thread?

All i’m advocating is PvD has to go. If the defenders did all the effort to siege up a tower and put supply traps and whatnot, the attackers should be forced to use tactics as well to be able to take the tower.

Examples:
Defenders: 5 AC and Defensive Treb
Attackers: 60 man blob with no supps left after they lost their rams
= Defenders deserve to win

Defenders: 5 AC and Defensive Treb
Attackers: Notice the siege and decide to find high-ground and build a treb to clear siege, after which they can ram freely
= Attackers deserve to win

If you don’t actually read posts and are not capable of giving reasonable feedback, you shouldn’t be posting on forums. I’m doing my best to convince other players of my idea and to make it clear to Anet that PvD really has to go.

CYB.9012:

…

Small groups will still be powerless against blobs.

The only thing that makes em powerless IS PvD !!! That is the whole point of this Post. Sure a blob can build a lot of trebs, but a decent defender with treb skills will be able to
- Shoot a cow at the blob before they even arrive at the building spot
- Shoot down all trebs, as he will be able to take the first shot (and if you consider yourself an experienced trebber, the first hit decides the outcome of the Treb-fight)

Blobs have no tactics in general, as they usually build all trebs within the radius of my shot.

My personal best:
Me: 1 treb on supply hut Bay
Enemy: 3 trebs, 2 catas
Who won? Me! oh wait, gate down, PvD melted, gg
Did i lose bay? yes. How? PvD !!!!

Anet, if you read this post, please know that there are so many frustrated defenders, so please stop promoting the mindless karma train and remove PvD. Looking forward to seeing the patch notes: Gates are now invulnerable from player damage

Sure remove it and then add in a cheap to craft molotov kittentail, then we can all dispute how long it should take for a wooden door to burn…

Memphisjz.1405:

Did you even read this thread?

All i’m advocating is PvD has to go. If the defenders did all the effort to siege up a tower and put supply traps and whatnot, the attackers should be forced to use tactics as well to be able to take the tower.

Examples:
Defenders: 5 AC and Defensive Treb
Attackers: 60 man blob with no supps left after they lost their rams
= Defenders deserve to win

Defenders: 5 AC and Defensive Treb
Attackers: Notice the siege and decide to find high-ground and build a treb to clear siege, after which they can ram freely
= Attackers deserve to win

If you don’t actually read posts and are not capable of giving reasonable feedback, you shouldn’t be posting on forums. I’m doing my best to convince other players of my idea and to make it clear to Anet that PvD really has to go.

You read my previous edit?

PvD has nothing to do with the fact that you cannot hold a tower in 5 players.
Take out PvD and blobs will still destroy your hours of running supplies in 2 minutes with trebs.

And then you will come back QQing about blobs building too fast.

You are frustrated by the fact that you spend an hour running supplies and building defenses, then a blob comes and destroys everything in 2 minutes.

Taking out PvD will not change that concept, I assure you.

Taking down fortified wall with 2 trebs takes more time than PvD reinforced gate with 30 man group.

CYB, your argument is invalid

I (almost) never lose my trebuchets of my tower and always
- drain the blobs supply
- shoot down all their siege

But guess what? Then they just melt the gate by force.
pretty much every tower i had sieged up and defended was lost to attackers that did not use (or lost their) offensive siege.

Hule.8794:

Taking down fortified wall with 2 trebs takes more time than PvD reinforced gate with 30 man group.

This. so much. And that is just wrong.
Taking down the wall should be slow. but PvD should be impossible.

And dont forget that mostly blob needs to build second trebs to take down inner too.
There are only rare places where treb can hit both outer and inner and is not in range of defenders treb.

edit: and i think taking pvd out of this game will in the end make smaller ninja groups more viable.
Now blob just need to steamroll and pvd everything. But if pvd wont be able, more tactics of smaller groups will be needed.
Some guys already doing this. Like 3 separate smaller groups hitting all 3 bay gates forcing enemy to a)spend supply, b)split defenders, c)place siege in a hurry
In the end if one group manage to get inside, it can just clear siege on wall and help other groups to get inside too.
Then again 3inner gates waiting for them.

Memphisjz,

Great post, I was waiting for someone to start with something like this.
Yes I totally agree with your stand, PvD has to go. Period!

It is not fun and not fair to defenders even if you have 5 defenders with siege in a tower. Yes I have been defending a lot but it is totally useless if they can steamroll through the gate and capture the tower without spending supplies on siege.

Like Memphisjz said if the defenders kill the enemy siege then the defenders should win, because the enemy should resupply and build new siege to get in the tower/keep. Not like: ‘Hey s**t we got no supply anymore to build siege, let’s just PvD and capture the tower!’

This kind of gameplay is 1) lame, 2) not fun and 3) will cost Anet a lot of players quitting this game.

I have read some incredible posts and replies in here which can surely be used to debate about this issue. But I have also read some really st*p*d posts and replies from players that don’t care about improving the game or not experienced enough in WvW.
To those players I can only say, don’t be so sad that you don’t get attention, play more WvW in some WvW focused guilds maybe then you understand why this thread has been made.
To the first group of players I want to say 1 thing and 1 thing only. We can convince Anet to remove PvD so every experienced player in WvW will have to rethink their strategy because PvD is gone!

Last thing Anet please, please, please remove PvD because it is going to cost you lots of players. Even if there are more players starting to play PvE the WvW community will die and I don’t think you guys want to have that!

Memphisjz.1405:

CYB, your argument is invalid

I (almost) never lose my trebuchets of my tower and always
- drain the blobs supply
- shoot down all their siege

But guess what? Then they just melt the gate by force.
pretty much every tower i had sieged up and defended was lost to attackers that did not use (or lost their) offensive siege.

Hule.8794:

Taking down fortified wall with 2 trebs takes more time than PvD reinforced gate with 30 man group.

This. so much. And that is just wrong.
Taking down the wall should be slow. but PvD should be impossible.

Actually this is the invalid argument:
“Defending SHOULD be easy with a 5 man team.”

Against a 50 man raid? Why? Because you put alot of effort in upgrading it?

Taking out PvD will make defense easier? Blobs will ninja your tower just as fast and there will be nothing you can do about it if you don’t have numbers / help to call.

“Like Memphisjz said if the defenders kill the enemy siege then the defenders should win, because the enemy should resupply and build new siege to get in the tower/keep. "

Win what? A few minutes more?

I’m not pro PvD and I don’t really care about it, I countered many such attemps with well positioned ACs, trebs or catas and player AoE. I dont agree on that 5 vs. 50 should be in favor of the defender.
50 vs 50 is in the favor of the defender.

Are you talking about “bad game design” or unbalanced fights?

I don’t expect to keep a tower for more than a few minutes if 50 people are attacking and we are 5 inside with no reinforcements.

So take out PvD to win what?

From a strategic view point, this is on the top of my wishlist. But then it would be so boring to capture objects, as it is now when commander decides to use catas on a wall instead. You just standing there watching a wall go down. Just as fun as watching the paint dry. Atleast something happens when you autoattack the door.

First of all, given the amount of players who either join the karma trains or wvw guilds that look for open field fights compared to the amount of players who build ac’s, escort yaks etc., sieging doesn’t seem to be a particularly popular part of wvw.

Second, you shouldn’t expect to hold a tower 5v50. That’s not asking for a “small advantage to the defenders”. Your siege should merely slow down and weaken the enemy so that your own force can help out and wipe the enemy.

Weaken attackers? if defenders kill enemy siege they deserve to win because the enemy group does not have any supplies left to build new siege and they cannot attack gates and walls with auto attack.

Sure it will be boring for people that are not on the siege but that is part of the game. Anet did not give us specific abilities for ram users because PvD will win anyways.

Anet is really busy in giving WvW boosts in terms of new abilities and extra ability lines.
But if they don’t remove the PvD it is almost useless to continue with those abilities.

@Vaugh, its on top of your wishlist but when PvD is gone it will be boring, well it might be boring but there might also be other things to do. Like scouting for enemies that want to enter the tower or even an enemy group that want to wipe you. Those scouts are needed hard and there are many more ways to encounter that boring part. You can even grab a drink in the meantime or go to the bathroom. But using rams in an well organized way you will get a T3 gate down in 10s.

@Monkeymonger, true to you first part about population. And you know why people dont want to defend, build siege and escort dollies? Because of PvD. Just join the karma train and PvD everything and capture everything. That is how WvW is now being played by many servers and guilds. But withouth PvD there will be more time put in the more important things like escorting dollies, building siege and defend something. Because without enemy siege the enemy should not enter!

I do not think no player’s damages on door would make it sooooooo easier to defend as to create an imbalance.
But it would make WvW way more strategical than it is right now…
And it would give defenders the impression that their actions matters.
If I build defense, and they get trebbed down, the ennemy outsmarted me.
If they don’t take my def down, and I destroy their siege, I outsmarted them.
If I take away their supply – with treb or trap – it should mean something.

It does not mean that defenders should (or would) always win, just that smart defenders would stand a chance.
Attackers have to go re-supply, which gives defenders an impression of victory, a chance to rebuild or else…

I do not think that taking off PvD would encourage defense much… but it will give a chance to people who enjoy that gamemode, which will make it enjoyable for them…

There will still be golem’s rush – but at least, these comes at a cost (need mesmers, or have lower mobility – plus plans are not cheap – on that account, I don’t think Omegas should be able to target ac on inside walls or there should be some kind of Arrow slit on top of the walls – but that’s another debate).

No players’ damage on door would allow for some more strategy, which I think is good…

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Blockhead Magee.3092:

As I expected the typical ‘HEY EVERYONE SHOULD PLAY THE WAY I WANT’ response.

The only one here with that attitude is you. Most people here want PvD removed because it causes people to tag gates, which can be considered a gameplay issue. You just want to keep PvD because you like it.

Hello Mr Pot. Kettle returning your call. There are a dozen different people here that doesn’t remotely make a representative argument when the thread title attracts people who agree with your PVD removal demands.

I want to keep PvD because it annoys the elitists.

Nobody will quit WvW because of PvD and there are much bigger fish to fry than to alter this mechanic.

RicardoLans.7658:

Weaken attackers? if defenders kill enemy siege they deserve to win because the enemy group does not have any supplies left to build new siege and they cannot attack gates and walls with auto attack.

….
@Monkeymonger, true to you first part about population. And you know why people dont want to defend, build siege and escort dollies? Because of PvD. Just join the karma train and PvD everything and capture everything. That is how WvW is now being played by many servers and guilds. But withouth PvD there will be more time put in the more important things like escorting dollies, building siege and defend something. Because without enemy siege the enemy should not enter!

Yes, that definitely sounds like a fun game mode. Running yaks and supply to build fort awesome.

I do agree that karma trains aren’t good for the game, but at the same time i was bored to death attacking objectives that were so stacked with siege that you could only treb them (with the countertreb to the countreb etc.).
Even if the ability to pvd gates was removed, it wouldn’t stop karma trains since it’s still the most rewarding, safest and (for the players that join it) most fun way to play.

Memphisjz.1405:

II’m about to hit 50.000 WvW kills

noobzerkerlearntonot1111inablob.

That said, I fully support this. PvD amplifies the imbalance of WvW, to the point that upgrading keeps and towers is basically worth nothing. I’ve tried to defend fully sieged T3 towers, and even with 10+ sup ac’s, placed all over the structure. Even with full ac mastery and perfect placement, it doesn’t matter. A good blob will PvD that door down before you can even dent their numbers.

Recently I find myself playing less and less WvW, simply because it too easily becomes a karma train. WvW is perhaps the most entertaining and challenging game mode I’ve experienced, and a good open fight is what keeps me playing the game.

So, you got my support Hylo!

I agree. The biggest thing to me is that there is absolutely no point in making a waypoint if the gate can just get tagged. Its pointless. Absolutely pointless. I do see that people would feel bored/not contributive if they can’t damage the gate though. But I don’t think its too big of a deal. When would orange swords popup? That’s another question. From what I understand orangs swords popup when there’s about 25 people dps’ing the gate which let’s the whole map know where you are and that you are a good sized zerg. Overall I think PvD has to go as well and the other small issues that would go along with it can be fixed pretty easily.

Blockhead Magee.3092:

There are a dozen different people here that doesn’t remotely make a representative argument.

And your name is right at the top of that list.

Damaging the doors is fine as it is. Five people with siege can hold off sixty for awhile, but they shouldn’t be able to do it forever. Yes, it is possible to place siege in structures such that they don’t get nuked down right away, but that’s not the issue… the issue is that the people in the tower (for example), if they’ve been holding off a blob for any period of time, should be able to do so long enough for reinforcements to arrive. If you’re server isn’t reinforcing the defenders in a reasonable amount of time then you’re going to lose the structure, simple as that. Even sixty people going full PvD on the door can’t take it down fast enough to get in before reinforcements arrive if you have a scout inside that’s alert and they have siege to slow down the enemy.

If you’re losing structures to PvD, blame your own server for failing to seige, scout and respond.

Might as well remove the doors completely and replace them with walls as they’re never properly opened, only bashed in.

Volkon, I assume you are on a server which plays against other servers that don’t have proper PvD blobs?
FSP has encountered many PvD blobs/zergs in WvW and before the reinforcements arrive the blob/zerg can PvD down a gate in 10 seconds.

In EB that means owh anza is under attack wp back to keep then run to anza. That wp and run takes approx 30 seconds. They PvD the gate in 10 seconds and before reinforcements are there to help anza flips.
There are more examples from the other keeps but I give you this one ^^

Frans that is not even needed if Anet just somehow make PvD impossible or much harder to do.

RicardoLans.7658:

Volkon, I assume you are on a server which plays against other servers that don’t have proper PvD blobs?
FSP has encountered many PvD blobs/zergs in WvW and before the reinforcements arrive the blob/zerg can PvD down a gate in 10 seconds.

In EB that means owh anza is under attack wp back to keep then run to anza. That wp and run takes approx 30 seconds. They PvD the gate in 10 seconds and before reinforcements are there to help anza flips.
There are more examples from the other keeps but I give you this one ^^

Frans that is not even needed if Anet just somehow make PvD impossible or much harder to do.

You assume incorrectly. I’m on JQ as all we see are BG and SoR blobs (it’s what they do best ). I also know that with good commanding, scouts and siege placement PvD is only an issue if you screw up or let it be.

VOLKON.1290:

If you’re losing structures to PvD, blame your own server for failing to seige, scout and respond.

What an original reply! Calling us failures without even knowing who we are and how properly we can siege/scout a tower. Gates melt too fast, it is impossible to get back to every tower in 20 seconds.

Additionally, as most people, you don’t seem to have read this whole post, as you forget that 1 silly shot of a thief can contest a keep for 3 minutes, thus preventing the main force from arriving faster. Another reason why PvD has to go.

And to everyone that can only counter-argument with “You expect to win 5 vs 60, hahaha”. Read this post more clearly.
5 SMART people residing in a heavily fortified tower should be able to hold 60 DUMB attackers. Indeed, theoretically there is no way that those 5 guys will be able to stop 60 people IF that 60 people would actually use their brain instead of Trololo Karmatrain.

If those 60 people build 4 trebs in spread out location, preventing the defenders from countering them all at once (assuming 1 defensive treb + mortar), there is indeed no stopping them.

Currently, Defenders are required to use smart siege tactics, trap placement, long scouting etc. for almost 0 rewards. Attackers aren’t required to do anything but spam 1 on a gate and get all the WXP. THIS IS NOT RIGHT. It shouldn’t be so easy for attackers if defenders have such a hard time

Currently, i haven’t seen a single decent counter argument. Everyone claiming we are elitist etc. You are clearly not a dedicated WvW player that plays it for the WAR. Everyone against the removal of PvD is just karma/XP train noobs that see WvW as fast leveling for their alt. You are just scared that kitten ing around in a blob won’t be as rewarding as it is atm. Your opinion is invalid.

Memphisjz.1405:

VOLKON.1290:

If you’re losing structures to PvD, blame your own server for failing to seige, scout and respond.

What an original reply! Calling us failures without even knowing who we are and how properly we can siege/scout a tower. Gates melt too fast, it is impossible to get back to every tower in 20 seconds.

Additionally, as most people, you don’t seem to have read this whole post, as you forget that 1 silly shot of a thief can contest a keep for 3 minutes, thus preventing the main force from arriving faster. Another reason why PvD has to go.

And to everyone that can only counter-argument with “You expect to win 5 vs 60, hahaha”. Read this post more clearly.
5 SMART people residing in a heavily fortified tower should be able to hold 60 DUMB attackers. Indeed, theoretically there is no way that those 5 guys will be able to stop 60 people IF that 60 people would actually use their brain instead of Trololo Karmatrain.

If those 60 people build 4 trebs in spread out location, preventing the defenders from countering them all at once (assuming 1 defensive treb + mortar), there is indeed no stopping them.

Currently, Defenders are required to use smart siege tactics, trap placement, long scouting etc. for almost 0 rewards. Attackers aren’t required to do anything but spam 1 on a gate and get all the WXP. THIS IS NOT RIGHT. It shouldn’t be so easy for attackers if defenders have such a hard time

Currently, i haven’t seen a single decent counter argument. Everyone claiming we are elitist etc. You are clearly not a dedicated WvW player that plays it for the WAR. Everyone against the removal of PvD is just karma/XP train noobs that see WvW as fast leveling for their alt. You are just scared that kitten ing around in a blob won’t be as rewarding as it is atm. Your opinion is invalid.

Where did I call anyone a failure? I only said you’re failing to scout, place and use siege and respond well enough. That doesn’t mean you’re a failure, I’m sorry you feel that way, it only means you need to improve on those things.

Oh, and as a matter of fact… 5 “smart” players in a well defended structure can already hold off 60 “dumb” players for a significant period of time… long enough easily for reinforcements to arrive at the least, or often well enough to break the initial assault.

Let me offer you a little tip for when the bad guys are PvDing your door at range (assuming the door treb has already either deterred them from building rams or they haven’t tried yet). If there’s a few people on siege you can have a mesmer get down behind the gate, target the gate and cast a feedback bubble on the gate. The numbers light up like a Christmas tree, it’s gorgeous to behold. Depending on how you’re traited you can have other interesting effects as well, such as applying confusion to anyone close enough to be hit by the bubble. I’m willing to bet that you, as one of the “smart” players, can easily see how that buys you time for reinforcements to get there.

And no… defenders (the “smart” ones you refer to) don’t defend it all for no rewards. The rewards are the piles of loot bags at your feet from all those people you tagged with the arrow carts and other defensive siege when your reinforcements do arrive and wipe them.

I get a kick out of being called “not a dedicated WvW player” when you consider the times I’ve spent six to eight hours straight baby-sitting a tower, refreshing siege, adding more siege (I like siege…) and scouting what I see around me. I’m quite familiar with what damage PvD can do, response times, all that jazz. That’s why I’m quite confident in saying that PvD isn’t an issue worth worrying about. There’s nothing there that good game play can’t counter.

Gates need to be like walls, plain and simple.
or Walls need to be like gates, plain and simple.

:)

I’m with Hylo (Memphisjz), the PVD needs to go!
That’s why we have siege!

PvD needs to go. Here is why…

1. The game should be intended to be balanced around equal resource expenditure. If it takes 100 supply to repair a reinforced gate, it should take 100 supply, either in siege engines or simply in pure supplies, to bring it down.

Proposed solution:
- Deduct supplies from everyone hitting a structure item (gate, wall) using personal weapons.
- Do not deduct supplies from people using siege engines.
- People without supplies inflict 1/10 of previously inflicted damage on structure items while using personal weapons.

Rationale: Force blob commanders to use the same supply sources and the same amount of supplies.

2. Defenders attacking from above should be able to use height to their advantage. Currently, you need to stand on the edge to attack anyone near the wall. Additionally, you simply cannot attack anyone directly beneath you.

Proposed solution: Extend slightly (by 200 or 400) units attack distance of any skill targeting objects below you.

Proposed solution: Grant situational ability (“Press <F> to perform pop-up attack”) to anyone on a wall or tower. The character would approach the edge of the wall (becoming clearly visible to enemies below) and their point of view would be moved slightly forward (beyond the edge of the wall), allowing to target enemies adjacent to the wall in addition to normal attacks.

I believe that the solutions proposed above would force blobs to:
- use supplies or siege engines,
- allow defenders to be more effective against attackers.

To those who claim that hand-wielded magitech weapons should destroy wooden gates:
These gates are built of magical wood, strengthened to withstand siege engines. This magically strengthened would should require extra effort to destroy, as it took extra effort of highly skilled magically-talented people to build it.

To those who say that game of constant running offense and negligible value of defense is fine:
Constant running is boring. Sure, a few days of karma train are fine, but after a month you’ll notice that running and pressing <1> is boring. To keep the game interesting, you need challenge, and the challenge comes with tactics.
So, please stop undermining the game by making too simple. You won’t love something that takes so little skill to do.

PvD needs to go.

Regards,
Ruemere

Exactly, if defenders bother to repair a gate (and thus spend at least 30-40 supply to close it), attackers should also be forced to spend supply to open it again. Now you can just kitten on a gate for a few seconds and it’s open again…

The topic title suggested another post referring to WvW only available to play during NA prime time.

After reading it though, yes the PvD has to go, it’s silly that 40 people auto attacking a gate can melt it just as fast as a ram and defenders on wals can’t do much due to AoE caps and the AoE spam on the walls.

Things I would like to see about tower defense:
1. No more damage to gates without siege.
2. Fortification upgrade to fortify the doors too, ram masteries were brought into WvW with no counter to it.

In answer to the original question and going by Anet’s track record to date, I’m going to suggest somewhere around the 12th of never.

sephiroth.4217:

The topic title suggested another post referring to WvW only available to play during NA prime time.

After reading it though, yes the PvD has to go, it’s silly that 40 people auto attacking a gate can melt it just as fast as a ram and defenders on wals can’t do much due to AoE caps and the AoE spam on the walls.

Things I would like to see about tower defense:
1. No more damage to gates without siege.
2. Fortification upgrade to fortify the doors too, ram masteries were brought into WvW with no counter to it.

I believe the cap for AoE damage for siege is something like 50… if someone can correct that I’d appreciate it. A handful of people with siege is a great deterrent to PvD. It’s hard to nuke down a door when you’re dead.

VOLKON, you still seem to lack the points i have made in this post.

NOT A SINGLE PIECE OF SIEGE CAN SURVIVE ON THE WALL
Even if you use the glitch to throw siege from below (making it semi-float in the air), at the very edge of the stairs leading up to the walls, it is still in range of AoE. (Meteor shower OP radius)

WALLS ARE A BULLET HELL FOR DEFENDERS
So you can’t stand on a wall as a defender to shoot down the enemy AC that they build 4meter behing the gate. Every AC you build inside the courtyard can’t hit that 1 AC, so you lose ALL your siege.

PvD isn’t the only problem with AoE, it’s the fact that walls are actually advantages to attackers (blocks arcing shots of trebs/mortars)/ and creates a safezone for the attackers since every defender stupid enough to go stand on the wall will pulled of, or nuked to death from AoE.

Unbalance:
Defenders have to stand on the very edge (dead-zone) not to get a Line of sight problem to shoot down.
Attackers can hug the wall in their safe zone and just spam AoE on the top of the wall (no LoS needed to hit those on the wall)

PvD has to go, once i made that clear to Anet, i’ll start a new thread: “Stop the Bullet Hell!” How to fix?
- NO skills can be casted on the side of walls (the circle will just appear as red and say ’can’t cast here’). Only on the horizontal surfaces should players be able to cast skills.

Memphisjz.1405:

VOLKON, you still seem to lack the points i have made in this post.

NOT A SINGLE PIECE OF SIEGE CAN SURVIVE ON THE WALL
Even if you use the glitch to throw siege from below (making it semi-float in the air), at the very edge of the stairs leading up to the walls, it is still in range of AoE. (Meteor shower OP radius)

WALLS ARE A BULLET HELL FOR DEFENDERS
So you can’t stand on a wall as a defender to shoot down the enemy AC that they build 4meter behing the gate. Every AC you build inside the courtyard can’t hit that 1 AC, so you lose ALL your siege.

PvD isn’t the only problem with AoE, it’s the fact that walls are actually advantages to attackers (blocks arcing shots of trebs/mortars)/ and creates a safezone for the attackers since every defender stupid enough to go stand on the wall will pulled of, or nuked to death from AoE.

Unbalance:
Defenders have to stand on the very edge (dead-zone) not to get a Line of sight problem to shoot down.
Attackers can hug the wall in their safe zone and just spam AoE on the top of the wall (no LoS needed to hit those on the wall)

PvD has to go, once i made that clear to Anet, i’ll start a new thread: “Stop the Bullet Hell!” How to fix?
- NO skills can be casted on the side of walls (the circle will just appear as red and say ’can’t cast here’). Only on the horizontal surfaces should players be able to cast skills.

Once again I agree 100% with what you said, I seen this problem since beta, and it still has not been addressed at all by Anet. Why do we have to stand on the edge of the wall to target the enemy at the door? I mean this is stupid and should have been fixed long ago.

How does removing player damage from keep doors stop blobbing? The blob would have more seige and more supply then any small group could hope to carry and would easily drop three rams and just smash the keep anyways.

Samhayn.2385:

How does removing player damage from keep doors stop blobbing? The blob would have more seige and more supply then any small group could hope to carry and would easily drop three rams and just smash the keep anyways.

It’s not going to stop the blob, but it would slow it down.
Right now, what is the use of well placed supply traps? None, because the blob melts the door… Two maxed players on AC will destroy the rams behind the door, the blob does not mind – Just PvD your way in…

The blob will have more supply, will eventually win the structure, yes, but the point is that they would need to play smarter, to think more strategically.

I do not mind losing a structure when the ennemy uses treb to put down our defense, comes to put rams, got part of its supply taken, we destroy the ram while they get supply, we take that time to build / adjust a counter-treb, they come back, attack the wall with catapults, and so on…
It is fight, it is fun, at least defenders had a chance…

But

I do mind losing a structure when the attackers just bang the door, that 2 sup AC, manned with AC masters, would only kill green arrows because they are enough to be perma healed… There is no strategy to it. You can plan on destroying their supply, making outings to destroy their siege – knowing full well that you will die to it, but also knowing it will buy you time. When a blob is melting a door faster than two superior rams, there is a problem…

Jocksy.3415:

Samhayn.2385:

How does removing player damage from keep doors stop blobbing? The blob would have more seige and more supply then any small group could hope to carry and would easily drop three rams and just smash the keep anyways.

It’s not going to stop the blob, but it would slow it down.
Right now, what is the use of well placed supply traps? None, because the blob melts the door… Two maxed players on AC will destroy the rams behind the door, the blob does not mind – Just PvD your way in…

The blob will have more supply, will eventually win the structure, yes, but the point is that they would need to play smarter, to think more strategically.

I do not mind losing a structure when the ennemy uses treb to put down our defense, comes to put rams, got part of its supply taken, we destroy the ram while they get supply, we take that time to build / adjust a counter-treb, they come back, attack the wall with catapults, and so on…
It is fight, it is fun, at least defenders had a chance…

But

I do mind losing a structure when the attackers just bang the door, that 2 sup AC, manned with AC masters, would only kill green arrows because they are enough to be perma healed… There is no strategy to it. You can plan on destroying their supply, making outings to destroy their siege – knowing full well that you will die to it, but also knowing it will buy you time. When a blob is melting a door faster than two superior rams, there is a problem…

I see what your saying but I think it would turn more into a treb keep with supply drain cows till defenders give up.

DaoC allowed players to damage doors with attacks and it even had abilities that allowed you to do more damage to structures with attacks and it worked out fine.

If you have enough siege to stop rams being built, you have enough siege to stop them PvDing the gate to death.

I dont really mind pvd a wooden gate, since its wooden, however pvd a REINFORCED gate is unacceptable and should be taken down with siege ONLY, if the tower is sieged up to the teeth, build some counter siege and send 1 thief in to trigger supply traps if theres any, that way u can easily build rams/catas without being worried of getting nuked by defensive siege. ( yes i lost tier3 towers to blobs mindlessly banging on the door after i took their siege down and its the most frustrating thing to see happen, hours of work to build it up and some blob just do this)

Why we cant pvWall is beyond me, would be fun to bicker a way through with a mine pick!

Reinforced gates aren’t being pvd’d down unless your server just isn’t responding or they already took out 90% of the gate beforehand. Your complaint should be imbalanced matchups, not pvd.

@ Carzor
Rams can’t be healed.
Players can…

@ Blix
Often seen 50% + reinforced door PvD’d down in less than 5 minutes, while attackers had 1 or 2 trebs and from 1 to 4 sup ac manned by people with masteries firing at them…

Coverage is an issue, but not the one discussed here.
PvD would not work if we were the same number as the ennemy… I agree…
BUT
The issue I’m putting forward is the one of fun. Because there is nothing concrete to do about coverage. But stopping PvD would bring fun to outmanned defense…
In the end, I do not mind losing a structure – if we did what we can to hold it, that’s the game… I just want something could be done against Pema-Healing-PvD-blob…

VOLKON.1290:

sephiroth.4217:

The topic title suggested another post referring to WvW only available to play during NA prime time.

After reading it though, yes the PvD has to go, it’s silly that 40 people auto attacking a gate can melt it just as fast as a ram and defenders on wals can’t do much due to AoE caps and the AoE spam on the walls.

Things I would like to see about tower defense:
1. No more damage to gates without siege.
2. Fortification upgrade to fortify the doors too, ram masteries were brought into WvW with no counter to it.

I believe the cap for AoE damage for siege is something like 50… if someone can correct that I’d appreciate it. A handful of people with siege is a great deterrent to PvD. It’s hard to nuke down a door when you’re dead.

Yer it is, I was more referring to players skills, not much siege left to use after an ac is shooting through your door of a tower and ontop of the walls, which is not a hack I know.

5 minutes is a long time. more than enough for a group to map hop and save a tower. If your server can’t do that, then it’s not an issue with pvd, sorry

It has nothing to do with time Blix. This game shouldn’t all be "All blob together, wait for reports and then go fight blob vs blob there.

There are situations (e.g nightcapping) where our server is down to say 30, and the enemy has a blob of 60. There is no way we will be able to ever wipe them. The only thing we can do to prevent from losing our keeps during the night is:

- upgrade them
- place siege everywhere
- put supply traps

All this effort is useless as a 60 man blob can just PvD
That group of 30 defenders should be able to defend that keep for as long as they outsmart the enemy.

If the blob loses all their supply for being too dumb and standing in supply draining cows, then that is their fault. It takes a while to resupply a full blob, giving the defenders some time to recap a camp, preventing the attackers from getting more supply etc.

Supply traps, Supply draining cows for players, supply drain for buildings on normal shot..
They all illustrate that there is the idea that supply should be a valuable thing to have.
However, due to PvD, there is absolutely no need to “abort an assault due to lack of supplies”.

The whole “Buying time for reinforcements to come wipe” argument is invalid too IMO, As long as the attackers can’t clear all the siege in the tower, it should be impossible for them to take it. How often do you see blobs look for high ground to place a treb to clear a tower? Oh that is right, never! No tactics needed to farm the WXP now.

Give defenders (and outnumbered groups) a chance to mean something for the server. I’m perfectly fine to lose my tower if the attackers outsmarted me by using a Treb spot I never thought of, or place catapults in one of our “blind spots”. I even learn from these losses. But if some dedicated defenders spend hours to make a super fortified fortress, Give them the epic defence they deserve!

Still waiting for the first decent counter-argument!

I remember when I heard of WvW and keeps, towers and camps, my first thought was: My god! Do this mean that me and some friends can actually upgrade and hold a tower against a greater force? You know, it would actually make sense that someone inside a keep should have the advantage against someone that’s right beneath their walls. I was thinking tactics like choke pointing, AoE damage and siege actually playing a huge role.

I have never been so wrong… Since they removed the AoE cap it’s been all about stacking as many people as possible in the smallest are possible to stack boons, ressurect players and be partially immune to damage…

WvW had so much potential, but they failed so hard they won’t even realize it. I agree with OP, make gates immune to any other damage than siege damage (trebuchet, ballistae and catapult). It would add way more depth to the game, and it would actually give the defending players a chance against a bigger force. I would also love to see supply camps buffed to the roof together with sentries.

Best idea I’ve seen so far: Have the events scale with the size of the numbers of players participating. Make the lords and guards 50 times harder if there are 50 people attacking. Make the zerg actually think tactics and how to fight this huge and dangerous boss. Make the zerg try to kill guards and archers inside the keep before they dare to attack the lord, or they’ll wipe. Same with camps and sentries. I think that sentries should be hard as kitten for a single player to kill. Now my thief can kill a sentry within 2-3 seconds, which is unacceptable. Even a lvl 1 thief with pistol off-hand can take a sentry…. Make them require some serious skill to kill. A single player should have to put some serious effort in taking a camp, not just fly through with ease. What’s the point of even upgrading a camp? You know that the enemy zerg will be there soon and wipe it in 1 second.

Anet failed hard when it comes to WvW. The only one that need a brain in WvW is the commander…

So, I wanted to come up with some real numbers.
Due to reset night, we had a 60 man blob on TS willing to PvD a door down for science .

For Science:

- 60 Man Blob
- Not everyone had 25 might stacks (nor full bloodlust stacks)
- No rams used
- Wooden gate

Time to PvD this gate: Exactly 45 Seconds.

If we buffed a bit better we could probably reach 35-30 seconds (since Fiery Greatsword are OP on gates)

As a next test, i timed how far i can run in 45 Seconds, having permanent swiftness.
As it turns out, running from the South hills gate to the Greenlake gate is a 45 seconds run. In other words, the whole ‘You just delay em by killing siege till backup arrives’ is completely invalid. Your backup will almost always be late!

Running from the SE Waypoint to the lake tower is 55 seconds run btw.
AkA Blobs melt ridicilously fast with PvD alone, if we would have bothered to build a ram to speed it up, we would be inside in 20 seconds.
No blob ever would have been able to react to the report of Greenlake being under attack….

Get rid of PvD !

Your opponents should have people scouting the enemy zerg’s movements and people ready sitting on defensive trebs/acs. All your posts just make it sound like you’re in a dead tier and whining about pvd when you are outnumberd or outnumber your opponent.

Wooden gates could use an HP buff, but you act like it’s impossible to defend things and in matchups with lots of players, that’s just not true.

I Play on Far Shiverpeaks, We have Queue’s on all maps during primetime.
I’m even talking about EB towers that just get PvD’d.

But i’ll stop discussing this with you. You don’t bring any reasonable argument to this topic, and calling me a whiner doesn’t make you a very mature forum user.

If you would have actually read my posts, you would know we spot the blob incoming, and i even start draining their supplies with a cow before they reach the gate.

Ac’s are gone is mere seconds due to AoE.

I have given tons of arguments why PvD has to go. Where is your reasonable argument?

My reasonable argument is l2p. Learn better arrow cart positioning, learn where to place defensive trebs, have people willing to scout and defend. If you and your opponents both have map queues, and you lose a tower to pvd, it’s your fault, especially on a reset night like you said.

Hylo showed strong arguments and examples the true about PVD, and it needs to go. If you don’t embrace this it means you are not up for challenge that WvW should be!
Like Hylo said, there isn’t any reasonable argument, in this topic, against “PVD needs to go”.

They should buff cannons, and fix AOE on walls. Then players wouldn’t be able to stand there DPSing gates.

Blix.8021:

My reasonable argument is l2p. Learn better arrow cart positioning, learn where to place defensive trebs, have people willing to scout and defend. If you and your opponents both have map queues, and you lose a tower to pvd, it’s your fault, especially on a reset night like you said.

you can have all siege in the world but a 70+ blob simply ignores that and pvd a reinforced gate down in like 2min ish, but guess your one of the doorhuggers that dont want this to stop, saying l2p isnt really constructive either