Guild Wars 2

Memphisjz.1405:

However, can you please explain me how such a big group of smart developers never realized that it makes absolutely no sense that players can damage a gate.

Players can’t damaged a gate that’s true.
But players that fire lasers, fireballs, bombs, launch rockets, shockwaves, spawn monsters and tons of other devastating attacks can easily damage a gate, it makes perfect sense.

Gates are wood and metal. Give me an axe. I’ll hurt that sucker in time.

Make PvD hit 1 damage on door….

Memphisjz.1405:

the hard work of a dedicated group of people to escort dolyaks

vs

some dude had nothing better to do than tag it all day long.

Why is your dedication worth praise while his only receives your scorn?

Because countering the upgrade is supereasy (as i said, killing dolyaks is too easy), so upgrading a keep is a tremendous task, while tagging a keep requires almost no effort. 1 shot at a gate and you block the whole other server’s movement? You can’t damage walls without siege, so neither should you be able to damage gates without siege

I have long advocated that waypoints remain uncontested until outer is breached and then remains that way until it is fixed.

And when are players going to realize that the world does not revolve around them, believe it or not the world doesn’t stop rotating when you log off, their playtime =/= your playtime.

Memphisjz.1405:

You can’t damage walls without siege, so neither should you be able to damage gates without siege

Walls are made of stone, gates are made of wood. Walls are much thicker and stronger than gates. Your argument is invalid.

Memphisjz.1405:

Because countering the upgrade is supereasy (as i said, killing dolyaks is too easy), so upgrading a keep is a tremendous task, while tagging a keep requires almost no effort. 1 shot at a gate and you block the whole other server’s movement? You can’t damage walls without siege, so neither should you be able to damage gates without siege

you are totally correct, we should fix this by removing waypoints altogether.

Well bigger problem is that you can take tower even if enemy doesn’t even have players in map.

At the very least players shouldn’t be able to damage reinforced gates without seige. Its’s pretty dumb that all their seige is down and a zerg can pew pew a t3 keep gate down with their tiny fists. So so so many times out defenses would have been successful if it weren’t for that fact. But anet has given more and more rewards to the zergball so I have zero expectation for them to change this.

melodey.4652:

At the very least players shouldn’t be able to damage reinforced gates without seige. Its’s pretty dumb that all their seige is down and a zerg can pew pew a t3 keep gate down with their tiny fists. So so so many times out defenses would have been successful if it weren’t for that fact. But anet has given more and more rewards to the zergball so I have zero expectation for them to change this.

Yes it totally doesn’t make sense that a storm of lasers, bombs, bullets, fireballs and lightning can take down a wooden gate.

I came in here expecting to see a thread about coverage wars, because WvW is totally unbalanced and what do I see: carebear wars!

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

melodey.4652:

At the very least players shouldn’t be able to damage reinforced gates without seige. Its’s pretty dumb that all their seige is down and a zerg can pew pew a t3 keep gate down with their tiny fists. So so so many times out defenses would have been successful if it weren’t for that fact. But anet has given more and more rewards to the zergball so I have zero expectation for them to change this.

Yes it totally doesn’t make sense that a storm of lasers, bombs, bullets, fireballs and lightning can take down a wooden gate.

Whether it makes sense from a lore standpoint or not is completely irrelevant.

The important thing is that removing the ability of players to damage gates without siege could improve gameplay. Since this would greatly affect tagging keeps, I think the change might have to also coincide with some kind of change to the WP system.

Memphisjz.1405:

ArenaNet, i love you guys for making this awesome game.

However, can you please explain me how such a big group of smart developers never realized that it makes absolutely no sense that players can damage a gate.

Not only is defending freaking impossible (Blobs just melt gates). It is simply COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE that the hard work of a dedicated group of people to escort dolyaks to a keep to finally have a WP can all be undone by a single troll who’s sole purpose in WvW is to tag the enemy keep. Seriously, our EB waypoint has been contested the whole week as some dude had nothing better to do than tag it all day long.

PS revise dolyaks as well, escorting them is useless since a thief can just stealth up to them and 3 hit them before you can even kill him. Increase Dolyak’s health and toughness and give them perma regeneration. Even when escorting with 3 people it is still impossible to keep a dolyak alive.

Huh? Defense in this game is already really easy. A group of 5 defenders with smart siege placement can hold of a zerg for a long time.

It sounds to me like you just need to team up with some people who are more experienced at WvW that you are.

The keep waypoints have timers. Its not like they are blocked forever. Even if you don’t have someone at sentry duty, its not a big deal for someone to run down and check the gates. Just keeps teams on their toes, imo.

well removing pvd would finally remove the annoying gate tagging…..

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

melodey.4652:

At the very least players shouldn’t be able to damage reinforced gates without seige. Its’s pretty dumb that all their seige is down and a zerg can pew pew a t3 keep gate down with their tiny fists. So so so many times out defenses would have been successful if it weren’t for that fact. But anet has given more and more rewards to the zergball so I have zero expectation for them to change this.

Yes it totally doesn’t make sense that a storm of lasers, bombs, bullets, fireballs and lightning can take down a wooden gate.

T1 walls are made of wood and yet you can’t damage those without seige. You were saying…?

melodey.4652:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

melodey.4652:

At the very least players shouldn’t be able to damage reinforced gates without seige. Its’s pretty dumb that all their seige is down and a zerg can pew pew a t3 keep gate down with their tiny fists. So so so many times out defenses would have been successful if it weren’t for that fact. But anet has given more and more rewards to the zergball so I have zero expectation for them to change this.

Yes it totally doesn’t make sense that a storm of lasers, bombs, bullets, fireballs and lightning can take down a wooden gate.

T1 walls are made of wood and yet you can’t damage those without seige. You were saying…?

good point. removing pvd, would def help outnumbered servers.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Players can’t damaged a gate that’s true…

Challenge Accepted!

I think if people were polled about this, I’d think you’d find that most people would prefer that players can damage doors.

I also think people would prefer that tagging keeps should not be easy as it is now. Perhaps an “x” amount of damage needs to be done to the door (perhaps the equivalent of 1 hit of a ram) like 8000 damage or so is needed to contest the wp.

Personally I think once the tower or keep is fully upgraded; players should not be able to damage doors at all.

Then again, I think just removing the WP from keeps and SM all together would go leaps and bounds to spreading people out and forcing servers to re-think their defensive strategy.

DeadlySynz.3471:

I think if people were polled about this, I’d think you’d find that most people would prefer that players can damage doors.

I also think people would prefer that tagging keeps should not be easy as it is now. Perhaps an “x” amount of damage needs to be done to the door (perhaps the equivalent of 1 hit of a ram) like 8000 damage or so is needed to contest the wp.

Personally I think once the tower or keep is fully upgraded; players should not be able to damage doors at all.

Then again, I think just removing the WP from keeps and SM all together would go leaps and bounds to spreading people out and forcing servers to re-think their defensive strategy.

it would need to be less. dont forget ballistas and catas can hit the gate too…

melodey.4652:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

melodey.4652:

At the very least players shouldn’t be able to damage reinforced gates without seige. Its’s pretty dumb that all their seige is down and a zerg can pew pew a t3 keep gate down with their tiny fists. So so so many times out defenses would have been successful if it weren’t for that fact. But anet has given more and more rewards to the zergball so I have zero expectation for them to change this.

Yes it totally doesn’t make sense that a storm of lasers, bombs, bullets, fireballs and lightning can take down a wooden gate.

T1 walls are made of wood and yet you can’t damage those without seige. You were saying…?

The fact that there is one type of gate that can’t be damaged by players is the only thing that doesn’t make sense. My original argument stands.

Zinrae.3769:

The important thing is that removing the ability of players to damage gates without siege could improve gameplay. Since this would greatly affect tagging keeps, I think the change might have to also coincide with some kind of change to the WP system.

Aha, but that is something I do agree with. But I wouldn’t go as far as saying it doesn’t make sense. It just isn’t practical from a gameplay point of view.

PvD FTW :-)

Nothing wrong with it. If you don’t like it, don’t do it.

Blockhead Magee.3092:

PvD FTW :-)

Nothing wrong with it. If you don’t like it, don’t do it.

Aha, it was only a matter of time before someone used that typical shortsighted and nonsensical argument. You realize that not only can literally every form of criticism be waved of by it, but also is it not applicable in this discussion.

Unless you are naive enough to believe that not doing it yourself will stop the enemy from doing it as well?

Ok in real life world you can’t break down a gate like those with just bare hands and sword, but think again Tyria is a world of magic also fantasy. In a magical world anything is possible with magic by your side. So it does make sense that a Gate can be taken down by a single or group of beings. Swords can be empowered or enchanted with magic to be able to cut through something it wasnt able to. =P

Guys this is bullkitten a sentient plant creature is hitting these wooden doors with fireballs and it’s working.

What if fortify went over doors too, more health, players can’t dmg, no more dmg resist though.

I just want this because I’m pretty kittening sick of doing PvD to get in a treb/ac defended gatelol

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

melodey.4652:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

melodey.4652:

At the very least players shouldn’t be able to damage reinforced gates without seige. Its’s pretty dumb that all their seige is down and a zerg can pew pew a t3 keep gate down with their tiny fists. So so so many times out defenses would have been successful if it weren’t for that fact. But anet has given more and more rewards to the zergball so I have zero expectation for them to change this.

Yes it totally doesn’t make sense that a storm of lasers, bombs, bullets, fireballs and lightning can take down a wooden gate.

T1 walls are made of wood and yet you can’t damage those without seige. You were saying…?

The fact that there is one type of gate that can’t be damaged by players is the only thing that doesn’t make sense. My original argument stands.

Zinrae.3769:

The important thing is that removing the ability of players to damage gates without siege could improve gameplay. Since this would greatly affect tagging keeps, I think the change might have to also coincide with some kind of change to the WP system.

Aha, but that is something I do agree with. But I wouldn’t go as far as saying it doesn’t make sense. It just isn’t practical from a gameplay point of view.

Uh, no it doesn’t? Lol. Like Zin said, whether you could hit the gate or wall “irl” is irrelevant in a map made by Anet to make a dynamic and fun WvW experience. Reducing PvD would make it a better experience and game. But some people loooooove their easymode.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Memphisjz.1405:

You can’t damage walls without siege, so neither should you be able to damage gates without siege

Walls are made of stone, gates are made of wood. Walls are much thicker and stronger than gates. Your argument is invalid.

Exactly right. Now if your argument about was about reinforced gates and the amount of time it takes to go down when 20+ are hammering away, then we could have a structural conversation, but a wooden gate doesn’t stand much chance when you have tons of people hammering away with weapons and skills. It makes sense in a fantasy world.

Antara.3189:

Exactly right. Now if your argument about was about reinforced gates and the amount of time it takes to go down when 20+ are hammering away, then we could have a structural conversation, but a wooden gate doesn’t stand much chance when you have tons of people hammering away with weapons and skills. It makes sense in a fantasy world.

But in a true fantasy world… Meteor showers should have been easily smoking that wooden gate. I don’t see that happening?

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Blockhead Magee.3092:

PvD FTW :-)

Nothing wrong with it. If you don’t like it, don’t do it.

Aha, it was only a matter of time before someone used that typical shortsighted and nonsensical argument. You realize that not only can literally every form of criticism be waved of by it, but also is it not applicable in this discussion.

Unless you are naive enough to believe that not doing it yourself will stop the enemy from doing it as well?

As I expected the typical ‘HEY EVERYONE SHOULD PLAY THE WAY I WANT’ response.

The entire premise of removing PvD is silly.

Blockhead Magee.3092:

As I expected the typical ‘HEY EVERYONE SHOULD PLAY THE WAY I WANT’ response.

The entire premise of removing PvD is silly.

Why is it silly? The OP isn’t even asking to remove PvD with siege, which everyone will do anyways. The OP is asking that a zerg with the capabilities to take a undefended keep be challenged when the keep has defenders who have gone through the trouble of taking down their siege instead of smashing their 40 tiny fists against the gate until it comes down without any siege. If Anet made them go resupply after the defenders were successful in taking down their siege, it would give the game better depth to the defense vs offense game instead of this nonsense of “why bother defending against a zerg when we can go take something else for less trouble when they’re going to take it anyways with or without siege” I don’t see why anyone would argue against this unless they were professional karma train riders, which if they are, are just contributing to broken, stale mechanics in an otherwise open world player vs player environment. Have a little imagination when it comes to the possibilities of a tactical game, peeps. Plz and ty.

Think most players would have been on both ends of this situation and to my thinking its way too easy for a large group to knock down doors without any siege. Yes this will also help servers with small populations or are just out numbered at certain times of day/night.
You reclaim a keep with a small band of players; before you know it the enemy arrives again & knocks on the door – a minute or two later the keep is overrun again, this being achieved without any siege. Siege weapons are in the game for a reason, use them.

- Remove the ability for players to damage doors, period.

- Add new siege, the Beta Siege Golem. A lighter and faster variant of the Alpha/Omega heavy golems, less HP, less door/wall damage (multitasking but weaker than both specialists), much cheaper to build and buy at the vendor (like, 40 supply and the price of a ram).

Problem solved even for low player counts and a much, much more fun siege game.

We can take a door down in like… 3 minutes PvD in T1. I remember coming from Crystal Desert, and the idea to PvD was just laughable.

I don’t like PvD, personally, but I think it would be a poor idea to remove it. People will get bored just standing around not doing anything if they aren’t on siege. You expect them to scout or block pathways to intercept incomings? Nah.

I’ve been advocating about this for a long time. This is another reason why so many quit this game all because of CHEAP CHEESY mechanics that NO OTHER mmo’s do.

Seriously,

look at the “Balance” in the game!! so Ridiculous and Pathetic.

Why bother frustrating yourself in dealing with them?

In fact, i had 37 guild members quit this week and i agreed with everything they said.

In fact also, I’ve already begun limiting my game play because of them

I will continue to say, this game is all about CONTROL and FAVORITISM.

And if you don’t fall into that category, than you will suffer their wrath until you break.

Believe me, i see it coming for me and i will be gone by than.

-Control-

Here

It’s either

You are in control

or

Be Controlled

-Favoritism-

No Proof Needed

The Truth is all around you

I will leave you with these quotes

“It’s hard to fight when the fight ain’t fair.”

“Tomorrow you promise change,
yet tomorrow is a repetition of today.”

“The truth is always an insult or a joke, lies are generally tastier.
We love them. The nature of lies is to please.
Truth has no concern for anyone’s comfort”

selan.8354:

well removing pvd would finally remove the annoying gate tagging…..

This and the annoyance of building up a tower/keep to tier3, siege it to the teeth and a 50man group comes, you counter their siege they look up at you laughing while carving their daggers and shooting arrows in the reinforced gate taking it down, and all you can do is sit and watch how they take the structure /sadtimes

I’m happy to see some feedback on this post, and i’m happy some mod removed the post of people just claiming i’m a noob and have to learn to defend. If you don’t have a valid argument to make, please don’t post. I do my best to only post on the forums when i believe my change really needs to happen.

The only somewhat valid counter-argument i read so far is “People will get bored just standing around not doing anything if they aren’t on siege”. Everyone else seems to be just scared their karma train will get nerfed. As a remark on this feedback: i personally think hitting a gate is equally boring as just standing next to it.

So let me clarify some of the things i read

STATEMENT: Defending something is easy with just a 5 man team WRONG. Defending SHOULD be easy with a 5 man team. I’m about to hit 50.000 WvW kills (so you can’t call me a noob at least). The problem with defending are the following:

- Every bit of siege built on walls is gone in 3 seconds if a blob starts AoE’ing the walls. Even mortars, cannons and oil go down way to fast. Kinda unfair you spend so much time upgrading and 4 meteor showers just kill a mortar…

- Ac / Treb behind the gate are gone in 20seconds, as the blob just has to build 1 counter AC just in front of the gate, which the defenders won’t be able to kill. Why? Because of bad game design, walls are a bullet hell for defenders instead of giving a tactical advantage. (IMO Anet should implement it so that AoE can’t hit the upper part of the wall, but that’s a different discussion). It is even so bad, that as an attacker, the safest place to stand is right in front of a wall, because the mortars/remaining trebs won’t be able to hit you (due to their arcing shot) (also, Anet, Mortar mastery skill 5, great idea, but you have no line of sight to use it 80% of the time! rendering it useless)

- Even if you manage to take down their siege before you lose yours, they just PvD the door down…

This is the whole idea why i made this post: Defenders should be at a slight advantage. What do i mean? if I, as a defender, bother to build defensive siege, it should force the attackers to also build siege. resulting in the following: Whoever loses their siege will decide the outcome of the battle Lost your rams? sorry, you are going to have to resupply! Lost your defensive siege? Sorry, you better call in the main zerg for backup!

P.S. I use superior siege only as defending, so don’t use that as argument either.

So yes, PvD has to go! Why bother dropping a supply trap? Blobs just go ’trololo fancy tornado! Smash gate in.

In addition to this: please make all gates fully sealed! This will stop the AC’s shooting inside the tower through the gap, and also prevents the enemy from seeing how many enemies are inside. as a defender you should be able to ambush!

So to conclude

Dear Anet, Some time ago you made a post that you want WvW to be less about who has the biggest numbers, and allow smaller teams with better tactics to defend against mindless zergs. Removing PvD is a must if you want to achieve this!
Not only is defending not nearly as rewarding as attacking, it is very frustrating to lose a very heavily fortified tower to some mindless blob!

melodey.4652:

Uh, no it doesn’t? Lol. Like Zin said, whether you could hit the gate or wall “irl” is irrelevant in a map made by Anet to make a dynamic and fun WvW experience. Reducing PvD would make it a better experience and game. But some people loooooove their easymode.

What doesn’t? My argument against you, or me agreeing with Zin?
What I said was that players damaging gates does make perfect sense from a realistic point of view, and no sense at all from a gameplay point of view. This is a stone cold fact no matter what you say.

Something else that obviously completely went over your head is that since Zin’s argument, I agree with you.

Blockhead Magee.3092:

As I expected the typical ‘HEY EVERYONE SHOULD PLAY THE WAY I WANT’ response.

The only one here with that attitude is you. Most people here want PvD removed because it causes people to tag gates, which can be considered a gameplay issue. You just want to keep PvD because you like it.

Actually I agree with OP, this is a game anyways not real life. I think doors should only be destroyed by siege equipment, this would make them more easy to keep and defend.

PvD isnt a problem. Yeah i said it. Get a few friends to man 5 sup ACs and fire at the same spot. No one will PvD through 5 sup ACs.

Real Problem shows it head now. blobs move faster than your 5 man, they will leave that tower and pvd another. You go to man AC to stop it, gl getting in against 30+ ppl.

So, drop the pvd needs to stop. You shouldn’t be rewarded for gathering up 50+ ppl to just run over everything. That is the real problem. Zergs are rewarded more, safer to travel, faster, easier to take towers etc.

Omnitek.3876:

PvD isnt a problem. Yeah i said it. Get a few friends to man 5 sup ACs and fire at the same spot. No one will PvD through 5 sup ACs.

Real Problem shows it head now. blobs move faster than your 5 man, they will leave that tower and pvd another. You go to man AC to stop it, gl getting in against 30+ ppl.

So, drop the pvd needs to stop. You shouldn’t be rewarded for gathering up 50+ ppl to just run over everything. That is the real problem. Zergs are rewarded more, safer to travel, faster, easier to take towers etc.

Clearly you didn’t read my second post. Every AC on the wall is nuked in seconds, AC behinds the gate? Lol , clearly you have never seen the blob just range DPS a gate from 1200 range like they don’t give a kitten.

NOTHING can stop that, and that is ridiculous

“You shouldn’t be rewarded for gathering up 50+ ppl to just run over everything.”
You just confirmed that PvD shouldn’t be able, as 50+ people smashing on a gate get rewarded too much WXP for autoattacking a gate..

Clearly you didn’t read my second post. Every AC on the wall is nuked in seconds, AC behinds the gate? Lol , clearly you have never seen the blob just range DPS a gate from 1200 range like they don’t give a kitten.

What tier server are you on? And if so, can you potentially get a youtube video demonstrating this technique?

I ask because most AC placement I’ve seen is pretty bad. I know that there is not a single spot on any wall where ACs are immune to AoE attacks, but placing ACs on Stairs or on the inner-most walls greatly increases their lifespan.

BTW: the tactical location of defensive structures is absolutely terrible. Cannons and Motars are nuked in seconds by AoE from groups of 10. I find myself placing arrow carts manually on stairs / inner corners of walls. Its better to fire from safe locations than to be AoEed to death by small groups during a seige.

Similarly, I think the defensive structures should be placed on the inner-walls of a tower. (Mortar, Cannons, etc. etc.) Cannons are basically better arrow carts placed in a very very bad location strategically. I’m always much better off using a weaker Arrow Cart on the inner stairs (away from the AoE).

I will agree that gate tagging is absolutely obnoxious. It literally takes hours of RL effort to man a Keep to build a waypoint. But it is literally impossible to prevent opponents from tagging keeps to stop a waypoint. Removing the ability to target gates will go a long way to making this better.

Shinoobi.1259:

We can take a door down in like… 3 minutes PvD in T1. I remember coming from Crystal Desert, and the idea to PvD was just laughable.

I don’t like PvD, personally, but I think it would be a poor idea to remove it. People will get bored just standing around not doing anything if they aren’t on siege. You expect them to scout or block pathways to intercept incomings? Nah.

How about AoE killing the opponent’s ballistae / mortars, and then building catapults to knock down their walls? How about building Trebuchets?

Defending a tower has no reward for a player, outside of the satisfaction that WvW points are slightly more in your favor. Attackers get all the karma, world experience, actual experience, and gold on their runs.

Yes, defenders have to sit around and do nothing for hours at a time. Attackers don’t have to. Attackers can always find another tower, another less defended area within 3 minutes of walking. Even then, a dedicated force of attackers will always be able to take a tower, due to the nature of the Trebuchet.

Talking about “getting bored” only demonstrates your own inexperience with defense. Is the typical attacker’s will so weak that they get bored in the 3 minutes that it takes to down a gate?

I guess you’ve never been on siege refresh duty through the night.

Perhaps make it so that players can deliver supply to a keep as well? (i.e. Tower has 0 supply. 5 players with 10 supply run into the tower and deposit it into the stash. Tower now has 50 supply.)

Blobs can melt a gate? You can melt a blob with superior ACs focused fire.

CYB.9012:

Blobs can melt a gate? You can melt a blob with superior ACs focused fire.

Please read my follow up posts in this thread before posting. It’s nearly impossible to place a Superior AC somewhere without it getting AoE’d. And behind the gate is useless for range dps PvD.

As i said earlier. Instead of feeling safe inside your tower or on your walls, it feels more like playing a bullet hell game when defending.

Memphisjz.1405:

CYB.9012:

Blobs can melt a gate? You can melt a blob with superior ACs focused fire.

Please read my follow up posts in this thread before posting. It’s nearly impossible to place a Superior AC somewhere without it getting AoE’d. And behind the gate is useless for range dps PvD.

As i said earlier. Instead of feeling safe inside your tower or on your walls, it feels more like playing a bullet hell game when defending.

Make the doors invulnerable to player damage and we will build 4 trebs in a few seconds and wipe your siege defenses. You will know you’re attacked only when the projectiles arrive.

Small groups will still be powerless against blobs.