Quickness Stacking in WvW

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Posted by: Teej.9241

Teej.9241

Is ANET looking at this at all? With Chronomancers it’s possible to stack it up to ~50 seconds of quickness in a group of 25-30 and then share it to all in the group. I can deal with all the other boons, even resistance is annoying but not a huge deal, but Quickness just seems like way too strong of a boon to be able to stack that high of a duration. You can corrupt all you want but even Necro Corrupt Boon only rips 3 of the 11 boons on at any time. Is this going to be addressed in the “seperate balancing of all game modes?”

Quickness could be reverted to an “effect” (or whatever you want to consider Alacrity) so that it does not get shared by using skills that share boons. Quickness and Alacrity seem to be on another level of utility compared to Might, Fury, Swiftness, Regen, Aegis, Retal, Stability, Vigor and Protection, so the change would make sense.

Le

(edited by Teej.9241)

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Posted by: Zero.4935

Zero.4935

+1

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Posted by: Dawdler.8521

Dawdler.8521

Its been argued for a while now but I’m not even sure Anet acknowledge it as a problem. Nothing related to insane boonstacking has been nerfed.

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Posted by: Melanion.4892

Melanion.4892

Seems a little desperate. Get used to the meta and fight the blobs already.

No top fight guild (GS, TW, etc) would ever run boonsharing against anything more than a 50 man pug blob. Not even in a GvG against a new guild.

Claude – Pink Fairy Mesmer

(edited by Melanion.4892)

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Posted by: Heartpains.7312

Heartpains.7312

Honestly no need to point fingers at classes in HoT, the whole expansion promotes spamming of everything ><
Boons, conditions, stealth, and at some point even reveal but not sure since I rarely do anything these days other than log in and gather and then logout “I do remember having 22seconds of reveal on me at some point from more than one player” =p

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Posted by: TheShoveler.5793

TheShoveler.5793

I don’t think OP’s intention was to point a finger at Chronomancer. More to point out that quickness is being stacked up to 50 seconds on entire groups and that it should be addressed.

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Posted by: Teej.9241

Teej.9241

Yeah, sorry @Heartpains. This wasn’t meant as a witch hunt for chronomancers. I just want how this boon is shared to be addressed!

Le

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Posted by: Heartpains.7312

Heartpains.7312

It’s okay, and I was talking in generally about classes pointing hehe, and I hope they take a look at things fast =)

I am pretty sure some people came up with good ideas in one of the other posts about boons, but I don’t think Anet are doing anything any time soon, good luck though, hope for some good changes =)

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Posted by: Robin Hood.3850

Robin Hood.3850

Thanks Teej for bringing this issue to the light. Hopefully Anet can circle back on this issue. No need to cut down the whole forest, just focus on the individual trees. Net net this would be a great change for the game. But we need to figure out what’s on Anets plate for WvW. The better we can understand their capacity the better we can asess what’s the longest pole in the tent here. After all, we are all just tools in a tool box trying to figure out what is mission critical.

Dyein
Twitch.tv/Dyeingaming

(edited by Robin Hood.3850)

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Posted by: Maiden England.3491

Maiden England.3491

good point, its on the table

Street Regulator

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

Get ready for a kittenstorm if this happens. Boonsharing is what gives Mesmer a place in PVE.

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Posted by: Teej.9241

Teej.9241

@Jerus I get that. ANET previously stated that their intentions are to balance the 3 game modes separately (sPvP, PvE and WvW). That’s what I also said in the OP. I know boon sharing is a part of both game modes, but quickness sharing the way it’s currently happening in WvW can’t be what they had in mind. PvE would be balanced separately (I’d hope).

Le

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

@Jerus I get that. ANET previously stated that their intentions are to balance the 3 game modes separately (sPvP, PvE and WvW). That’s what I also said in the OP. I know boon sharing is a part of both game modes, but quickness sharing the way it’s currently happening in WvW can’t be what they had in mind. PvE would be balanced separately (I’d hope).

Yeah, just seems a pretty big difference between the two modes, one a boon one just a buff. It’d also reduce counter play for quickness in general. I wonder if they could just cap the duration you can share in WvW? Or, have it scale so you get say 25% duration on anything shared in WvW.

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Posted by: Nuzt.7894

Nuzt.7894

Honestly I’m impartial but seeing kitten many people do not like certain areas of the new meta would the easiest fix not be to just add hard caps to certain boons? Make is so Quickness or any other problematic boon can not be stacked beyond say 25 sec (random number). I don’t know seems like an easy quick fix.

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Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

About time this issue is aired out. I agree 100%. Here’s hoping Anet can make this a priority action item for the balance team. I’d like to see this cake get baked.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

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Posted by: Zero.4935

Zero.4935

Why don’t they make certain boons cap like certain condis?

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Posted by: Nuzt.7894

Nuzt.7894

Why don’t they make certain boons cap like certain condis?

One would think this would be the easiest fix, I’m no programmer but it certainly sounds like it would take almost no time at all.

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Posted by: Zero.4935

Zero.4935

Why don’t they make certain boons cap like certain condis?

One would think this would be the easiest fix, I’m no programmer but it certainly sounds like it would take almost no time at all.

The sad thing is they already do. I think swiftness caps at 2mins?

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

Why don’t they make certain boons cap like certain condis?

One would think this would be the easiest fix, I’m no programmer but it certainly sounds like it would take almost no time at all.

The sad thing is they already do. I think swiftness caps at 2mins?

I thought it was a stack cap not a time cap. So say stacking Symbol of Swiftness would net you a lower swiftness duration at cap than using swiftness from blasting lightning fields. I believe Quickness works the same way, I just don’t know how many stacks that is, or if my memory is just way off

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Posted by: Joseph.7213

Joseph.7213

While we believe this issue is important to both us and our player base, there are other things coming up the pipeline that require our foremost attention. Let’s circle back to this issue once we’ve solved the pressing matters of repair hammers and mobile cannons.

rip hopes and dreams for supported 3v3 arenas

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Posted by: difficultshamee.3914

difficultshamee.3914

He sayed it.

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Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

Yes they know about it and no they likely won’t do anything about it for months. Boon sharing is yet another crappy meta direction WvW has taken.

Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”

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Posted by: Meekz.8274

Meekz.8274

+1. Decently large WvW issue that needs attention. ANet, pls.

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Posted by: Robin Hood.3850

Robin Hood.3850

Just touching base with this thread and Anet so we can put this one to bed.

Dyein
Twitch.tv/Dyeingaming

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Posted by: Triggered.1850

Triggered.1850

Just touching base with this thread and Anet so we can put this one to bed.

? ? ?_? ?? ANET TAKE MY ENERGY ? ? ?_? ??

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Posted by: Porqington.3189

Porqington.3189

How about just making a new condition that functions like resistance for boons – i.e. As long as you have the condi (let’s call it Misfortune), boons have no affect and/or cannot be applied to you.

We Don’t Need No [STAB] – JQ

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Posted by: Virtute.8251

Virtute.8251

Never let it be sayed that he did not sayed it.

PS:

No top fight guild (GS, TW, etc) would ever run boonsharing against anything more than a 50 man pug blob. Not even in a GvG against a new guild.

LOL

Legendary PvF Keep Lord Anvu Pansu Senpai
RvR isn’t “endgame”, it’s the only game. Cu in CU.

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Posted by: Chris.3290

Chris.3290

I think we should be glad this wasn’t a problem when people GvG’d two years ago.

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Posted by: Kyon.9735

Kyon.9735

We won’t be having this kind of problem if the game balancing was separate.

PVE – Quickness sharing is essential in raids.
WvW/PvP – Remove quickness (and resistance) from boonshare list.

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Posted by: Teej.9241

Teej.9241

@Chris.2390, It wasn’t a problem when everyone GvG’d two years ago because if you ran it no GvG guild would fight you. Considering there isn’t much of a scene anymore, the few who prefer winning over having fun, enjoyable fights and are wanting to run it can do so with little repercussions.

I was in the guild that first used quickness in a GvG v Hymn and when we saw what it did we stopped running it and the community shunned it. It then progressed so that there was no pre-buffing and all boons had to be obtained after the round started.

Le

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

Thinking ANet is going to listen or care about profession/skill balance is unfortunately a waste of time.

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Posted by: ualgh.1832

ualgh.1832

+1

I think quickness stacking illustrates the need to split skill balance among game modes. Much like with stability, boons in these large WvW groups end up “playing out” quite differently than they would in PvE and PvP. When stability was changed to stacks that could be stripped instantly, melee in WvW groups suffered immensely as elementalists and necros blindly spammed CC. The resulting “pirate ship” meta made melee roles very boring and ineffective as they had little recourse for incessant cc. Now that there is an ICD in place (thanks to developer attention to WvW), melee are able to more or less push with their groups.

With quickness stacking in WvW, a small number of chronomancers (say 2-4) are able to rapidly stack and share the quickness boon so that a group of 25-40 can attain 40+ seconds of quickness, giving groups the opportunity to hit with the damage of a group twice its size. And keep in mind that it is not particularly difficult for a chronomancer to perform the quickness stacking rotation.

As a result, this one boon provides a disproportionate advantage to groups willing to run it, despite the negative effect that quickness stacking has on public perception of the group’s level. Additionally, it’s possible that a guild who would choose to run quickness stacking may even come to rely on this “broken” mechanic too much—if they ever find themselves unable to stack quickness, they could go from being a threat to little more than an average zerg. In effect, quickness stacking seems to artificially inflate a guild’s competence when, in reality, the guild is exceedingly average.

I think addressing this boon’s overpowered nature in WvW would do a great deal to restore parity to the current meta.

follow me on IG @yung_anime

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Posted by: ArchonWing.9480

ArchonWing.9480

jajajajjajajaaj

^

What about limiting various boons to specific maximum durations only in WvW? That way you could still share boons, but it would restrict prebuffing to a certain degree.

For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.

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Posted by: Teej.9241

Teej.9241

jajajajjajajaaj

^

What about limiting various boons to specific maximum durations only in WvW? That way you could still share boons, but it would restrict prebuffing to a certain degree.

Yeah, that’s a solid option. I believe others have suggested that as well

Le

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Posted by: dzeRnumbrd.6129

dzeRnumbrd.6129

Quickness isn’t the only boon that needs addressing.

Resistance, stability and protection are also very overpowered when shared.

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Posted by: Akkeros.1675

Akkeros.1675

While we believe this issue is important to both us and our player base, there are other things coming up the pipeline that require our foremost attention. Let’s circle back to this issue once we’ve solved the pressing matters of repair hammers and mobile cannons.

lol, and perhaps revamp the shatterer again, just for good measure

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Posted by: X T D.6458

X T D.6458

The boonstacking is completely out of control and does need to be addressed by appropriate limiting of how many sources of each boon you can stack. Perma stacking of every boon just promotes a lot of passive gameplay which unfortunately seems to be anets pattern since hot. But expecting balance…well I wont hold my breath…power creep, ridiculous condi spam and disgusting siege wars that wvw has become. Maybe they will nerf swiftness or a rune that was bad for pvp esports and call it a day.

I say what needs to be said, get used to it.
Honesty is not insulting, stupidity is.
>Class Balance is a Joke<

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Posted by: Nuzt.7894

Nuzt.7894

Quickness isn’t the only boon that needs addressing.

Resistance, stability and protection are also very overpowered when shared.

Stability? Really?
Why don’t we just back to the Pirate Ship meta that was sooooo exciting half the population left.

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Posted by: MangoCrush.7819

MangoCrush.7819

hehe think I had 40 stacks of stab the other day was kinda nice

Stormbluff Isle

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Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

The boonstacking is completely out of control and does need to be addressed by appropriate limiting of how many sources of each boon you can stack. Perma stacking of every boon just promotes a lot of passive gameplay which unfortunately seems to be anets pattern since hot. But expecting balance…well I wont hold my breath…power creep, ridiculous condi spam and disgusting siege wars that wvw has become. Maybe they will nerf swiftness or a rune that was bad for pvp esports and call it a day.

Balance in WvW isn’t a pie in the sky concept. Anet has been building up the core competency of the architecture, first with the separation of WvW and PvE values for retaliation and confusion, then with PvP and PvE skills. As a forward-looking company, Anet has been reaching out to fully leverage the existing customer base for the ideation process. Even with lots of moving parts, this crowdsourcing enables improved buy-in of future iterations, which facilitate more accurate sales projections.

So it is not unrealistic to cheer lead for balance of WvW skills. It may seem like boiling an ocean, which is why we start with concrete deliverables such as getting quickness stacking fixed.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

(edited by Chaba.5410)

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

Quickness isn’t the only boon that needs addressing.

Resistance, stability and protection are also very overpowered when shared.

Stability? Really?
Why don’t we just back to the Pirate Ship meta that was sooooo exciting half the population left.

This is one thing I find funny. I quit playing about the time the Pirate Ship meta came into being. I didn’t play much of it, and I didn’t quit because of it, but I knew and experienced some of it. I quit for 8-9 months, came back, and it honestly feels much the same overall. I laugh because it seems like they made WvW overly convoluted just to create a similar result. It’s pretty significant that they then nerfed that stability change to not allow further interrupts for a short term. In the end though it feels much the same, WvW bursts things, that’s kind fo the playstile in a nutshell, burst heals, burst damage, burst boons. But, with that change to Stability stacking and usage, well you have an almost identical play style. So waht’s the kittening point?

It really feels like they’ve just played with things, not knowing their full implication, then instead of reverting they just created more mechanics to counter that change… god, it’s just plain dumb.

In the end you still want 2 guardians for stability per frontline group. Now you want 1 rev for resistance per group (the only real change, war=rev), where you used to want condi cleanses. Then you have Water fields (the same) and well/damage field bombs (the same).

I’m just failing to see the effective difference in the meta from back when I loved WvW before and what we have now. It’s in simply changed from GWEN to GREN, which is just… why?

But then I realize why, these changes weren’t done in any regard for WvW and the changes back towards it again werent’ done for WvW but in effect ‘fixing’ WvW to get back to the status quo it was once at.

I don’t know, I just look at the history of WvW that I missed and laugh because it overall made little to no difference in how it’s played today vs before these things. So I guess thank you sPvP for taking a solid system and making it a convoluted system with the same result.

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Posted by: MrFluffy.9307

MrFluffy.9307

Quickness isn’t the only boon that needs addressing.

Resistance, stability and protection are also very overpowered when shared.

Stability? Really?
Why don’t we just back to the Pirate Ship meta that was sooooo exciting half the population left.

This is one thing I find funny. I quit playing about the time the Pirate Ship meta came into being. I didn’t play much of it, and I didn’t quit because of it, but I knew and experienced some of it. I quit for 8-9 months, came back, and it honestly feels much the same overall. I laugh because it seems like they made WvW overly convoluted just to create a similar result. It’s pretty significant that they then nerfed that stability change to not allow further interrupts for a short term. In the end though it feels much the same, WvW bursts things, that’s kind fo the playstile in a nutshell, burst heals, burst damage, burst boons. But, with that change to Stability stacking and usage, well you have an almost identical play style. So waht’s the kittening point?

It really feels like they’ve just played with things, not knowing their full implication, then instead of reverting they just created more mechanics to counter that change… god, it’s just plain dumb.

In the end you still want 2 guardians for stability per frontline group. Now you want 1 rev for resistance per group (the only real change, war=rev), where you used to want condi cleanses. Then you have Water fields (the same) and well/damage field bombs (the same).

I’m just failing to see the effective difference in the meta from back when I loved WvW before and what we have now. It’s in simply changed from GWEN to GREN, which is just… why?

But then I realize why, these changes weren’t done in any regard for WvW and the changes back towards it again werent’ done for WvW but in effect ‘fixing’ WvW to get back to the status quo it was once at.

I don’t know, I just look at the history of WvW that I missed and laugh because it overall made little to no difference in how it’s played today vs before these things. So I guess thank you sPvP for taking a solid system and making it a convoluted system with the same result.

I feel like Anet needs to go back and fix builds across the board. Power creep has definitely affected WvW, and things just simply need to be nerfed. Groups were a lot squishier back then but it was fine because skilled groups could sustain even when massively outnumbered. Currently it’s almost impossible to kill larger groups because of mechanics like damage reduction and resistance.

Hi

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Posted by: Robin Hood.3850

Robin Hood.3850

I’m looping back in my $.02 for Anet to take a concrete look at this and develop some possible avenues we can travel down. Again, we aren’t asking to stop global warming just to stop one iceberg from melting.

Dyein
Twitch.tv/Dyeingaming

(edited by Robin Hood.3850)

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Posted by: Triggered.1850

Triggered.1850

lol

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

Quickness isn’t the only boon that needs addressing.

Resistance, stability and protection are also very overpowered when shared.

Stability? Really?
Why don’t we just back to the Pirate Ship meta that was sooooo exciting half the population left.

This is one thing I find funny. I quit playing about the time the Pirate Ship meta came into being. I didn’t play much of it, and I didn’t quit because of it, but I knew and experienced some of it. I quit for 8-9 months, came back, and it honestly feels much the same overall. I laugh because it seems like they made WvW overly convoluted just to create a similar result. It’s pretty significant that they then nerfed that stability change to not allow further interrupts for a short term. In the end though it feels much the same, WvW bursts things, that’s kind fo the playstile in a nutshell, burst heals, burst damage, burst boons. But, with that change to Stability stacking and usage, well you have an almost identical play style. So waht’s the kittening point?

It really feels like they’ve just played with things, not knowing their full implication, then instead of reverting they just created more mechanics to counter that change… god, it’s just plain dumb.

In the end you still want 2 guardians for stability per frontline group. Now you want 1 rev for resistance per group (the only real change, war=rev), where you used to want condi cleanses. Then you have Water fields (the same) and well/damage field bombs (the same).

I’m just failing to see the effective difference in the meta from back when I loved WvW before and what we have now. It’s in simply changed from GWEN to GREN, which is just… why?

But then I realize why, these changes weren’t done in any regard for WvW and the changes back towards it again werent’ done for WvW but in effect ‘fixing’ WvW to get back to the status quo it was once at.

I don’t know, I just look at the history of WvW that I missed and laugh because it overall made little to no difference in how it’s played today vs before these things. So I guess thank you sPvP for taking a solid system and making it a convoluted system with the same result.

I feel like Anet needs to go back and fix builds across the board. Power creep has definitely affected WvW, and things just simply need to be nerfed. Groups were a lot squishier back then but it was fine because skilled groups could sustain even when massively outnumbered. Currently it’s almost impossible to kill larger groups because of mechanics like damage reduction and resistance.

Power creep is insane, I was worried before the expansion seeing some of the stuff, but seeing it in game now, just… wow.

But, I’ve still seen 20-30 man groups take down 50+man blobs when the smaller group is organized and the larger one isn’t. It just takes a lot more to do it, you have to utilize the power creep. That small force comes in booned to the teeth, drops bombs on the large group taking out a large chunk of their numbers then pulls out with superspeed to avoid the retaliatory bomb. Drop water fields and regroup, and push again to take out a few more, rinse and repeat.

It just feels the same, but with different tools. A convoluted mess to get the same result.

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Posted by: MrFluffy.9307

MrFluffy.9307

But, I’ve still seen 20-30 man groups take down 50+man blobs when the smaller group is organized and the larger one isn’t.

idk man I see a lot of groups claim that, but when you watch their vids it turns out they had 20-30 in squad but were running with like 10-20 green names against a group of similar size.

Hi

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Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

But, I’ve still seen 20-30 man groups take down 50+man blobs when the smaller group is organized and the larger one isn’t.

idk man I see a lot of groups claim that, but when you watch their vids it turns out they had 20-30 in squad but were running with like 10-20 green names against a group of similar size.

I hear you, and you’re right, it usually is. I’m thinking of a few incidents specifically. The first was embarrassing because I was in the large group and we got taken out by a much smaller guild group because we apparently sucked.

The next was a few weeks back, a little before the normal prime time we try to defend WC, squad of a dozen forms up in TS and there were probably half a dozen additional green names, but we kited this much larger force around that tower and eventually wiped them. Pretty sure everyone involved didn’t believe what had just happened, but it did.

Then a couple times we’ve gone up against what are obviously pug blobs (you can see the disorganization) and taken them out with 20-30man squads (probably a few green names too you’re right but I doubt more than 5)

Either way, I’m not saying a great 20-30 man force can beat a half decent 50+, just that the 50+ have to be at least half decent and can’t just be a full blob of rally bait. But, that’s how I remember it being before as well.

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Posted by: dzeRnumbrd.6129

dzeRnumbrd.6129

Quickness isn’t the only boon that needs addressing.

Resistance, stability and protection are also very overpowered when shared.

Stability? Really?
Why don’t we just back to the Pirate Ship meta that was sooooo exciting half the population left.

No, I would prefer they revert stability to the way it worked previously.

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Posted by: Teej.9241

Teej.9241

Stab really isn’t the focus of this thread, folks.

Le

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Posted by: dzeRnumbrd.6129

dzeRnumbrd.6129

Stab really isn’t the focus of this thread, folks.

Not true.

You said:

I can deal with all the other boons, even resistance is annoying but not a huge deal, but Quickness just seems like way too strong of a boon to be able to stack that high of a duration.

So I’m disagreeing with you that quickness is the main problem.

It’s boon sharing in general that is the problem not just quickness sharing.

So stability and other boons are just as on topic as quickness.