Guild Wars 2

Straegen.2938:

The only time a Ranger has been dangerous was pre-BM nerf when some pets hit like a truck. When I do run into a well played Ranger, the only thought that crosses my mind is how much more dangerous that player would be in another class.

Same here….

you should not underestimate the BearBow build however. The players are the core issue. The build itself is actually viable, aslong as the player behind the toon is adept at playing zerker.

They need to turn rangers into a mobile arrow cart.
XD

Xenesis.6389:

They need to turn rangers into a mobile arrow cart.
XD

In that case, all they gotta do is reduce CD of Barrage to 4 seconds

I dont think Rangers are a bad class… but comparing to others they are the worst.

I have all casses but Elementalist on level 80… Ranger was my second class to level and now I rarely play with it.

Xenesis.6389:

They need to turn rangers into a mobile arrow cart.
XD

Yes. Exactly what this game needs more of is siege.

Rangers and Engis are in the same boat. Jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none. When you build team comps for WvW you have to look at what each class can bring individually to the group. Turns out that the group support that a Ranger brings to the table is outclassed by other professions.

Boonprot.6274:

Xenesis.6389:

They need to turn rangers into a mobile arrow cart.
XD

Yes. Exactly what this game needs more of is siege.

Rangers and Engis are in the same boat. Jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none. When you build team comps for WvW you have to look at what each class can bring individually to the group. Turns out that the group support that a Ranger brings to the table is outclassed by other professions.

Engis are far away in a better position than the Ranger.

I want to say a few things first and then I’ll give my opinion on this subject.

For starters, I don’t for an instant buy into the theory that the Ranger class has an inordinatley larger percentage of bad players than other classes. They may have more, but that is a result of the class being the most numerous in the game.

Secondly, I don’t buy into the theory that the reason high-end guilds don’t want the class is because they’ve never seen a good Ranger. These guilds are made up of some of the best players in the game, most of which probably have made one of every class, and they can easily dissect the pros/cons/abilities of every class. And these people can’t find a role for the class to fill.

Lastly, I have many hundreds of hours under my belt with the class. I’ve never liked it. I chose it because I’ve been a long range, power oriented, bow user in ever single MMO I’ve ever played for 25 years going back to my earliest days as a teenager playing Ultima Online in beta. At this role, the class fails miserably. The simple fact that it has poort burst and no AE makes it impossible to ever succeed at this role. So offensively the class is a bust not only for me, but I’d wager the overwhelming majority of players to begin with because most people probably chose this class for the same reason I did.

So that said, and power out of the question, lets talk condis… Here it does quite well in small groups because the condis can carry the class quite well. In larger battles however, the condis for the class are worthless. They’re all on long cooldowns. They’re short ranged. Many are single target. etc etc. As a condi class, the value you bring to a group falls off much quicker than it does for every other class in the game.

So then we have utility being the one area left that this class has a shot of competing in. The overwhelming majority of the class’ utility comes from their pet. So right off the bat, the class is a failure in anything above a 5v5 because stray AE alone will drop your pet in seconds. Another large chunk of the utility the class provides requires an enormous investment in traits before they’re even useful, let alone above bottom tier when compared against other classes. This then forces the class into much harder decisions than pretty much any other class has to make because you’re forced to ‘specialize’ in things other classes see as generic perks.

When all is said and done, the class brings only a few things to a group… immobilize and healing spring. Healing Spring is great aside for the fact that it’s melee range and doesn’t fit into a highly mobile fighting force. So there goes your GvG representation. The only value the field has is in zergs where you run through an enemy ball and re-rally on the other side to heal up. Pretty sure this strategy died out about 6 months ago?

So then we’re left with immobolize. Certainly not unique to the ranger, but Muddy Terrain is at least on a reasonable cooldown. The elite is amazing, but a 1-off every 2.5 minutes? Hardly something to be relid upon. The pets? Worthless at this level because of AE. And then you factor in the current meta being dominated by Necros, Warriors, and Guardians which basically remove any value immobilize had left other than trying to seperate the train and its DPS which with each passing day tends to be more train and less DPS.

So what’s left for the class to provide? We have people in this thread trying to pretend the class can be a front line meleer, but what do you do in the front line? You drop a water field that everyone’s out of range of instantly, and you stay alive to soak AE. That’s it. You don’t provide stuns, CC, worthwhile buffs (swiftness and regen are made avaialble by nearly every class). As a back line support you don’t provide any burst so you can’t even pick people off.

A Ranger does nothing but sit there spamming auto-attack in a futile attempt to outlast the opponent. It does this as a dueler, as a roamer, and as a zerger.

The class just doesn’t ‘do’ anything…

albotelho.2931:

Boonprot.6274:

Rangers and Engis are in the same boat. Jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none. When you build team comps for WvW you have to look at what each class can bring individually to the group. Turns out that the group support that a Ranger brings to the table is outclassed by other professions.

Engis are far away in a better position than the Ranger.

Engis are a difficult class to master but when you run into one that is played well you will likely never forget it. They are a roaming class that can make even the most skilled players say “what the hell just happened”. They are also far more dangerous underwater despite what most Rangers believe.

Straegen.2938:

Prysin.8542:

Rangers – universally underestimated, misunderstood and trivialized by the wast wast majority . Seems like there needs to be made some kick kitten videos.

The problem is WvW skilled players are not seeing these great rangers. Almost nobody who is a great fighter is running this class in WvW and there is a reason for it. They are rare in GvG, few want them in skill groups and it is unusual to find one that lasts in a roaming fight more than a few seconds. Very few can survive my thief burst and none have ever bested my warrior solo. When my warrior runs into a condi-bunker Ranger it is a free meal thanks to Cleansing Ire, heavy condition reduction and tons of control output. Only necros and engis are able to apply conditions fast enough that last long enough to matter against that build.

warriorjrd.8695:

Rangers are probably only beaten my necros in terms of conditions. You should check out trapper builds. BM bunker is very good for roaming too.

No ranger build I have ever seen can out condition a conditioning necro or engi. I ran a Ranger BM condition build for hundreds of hours in WvW pre-pet nerf. I still run one in PvE since that is the toon that has map completion. My necro even with the nerfed Dhuumfire build is a much stronger condition spiker than my Ranger. Signet of Spite, Corrupt Boon, Epidemic, Plague Form, etc as well as the vast array of traits that proc conditions make the necro condition disgusting. The Tor/Fear condi builds are evil.

Hence I said rangers are only beaten by necros when we are talking about conditions…

All I know is, in a system with 8 classes, targeting the ranger first seems like the correct choice 4 out of 5 times.

@Ather
The GvG scene in general is saturated with elitism and profession “racism”. This is why Engineers and Rangers are almost barred. Not because they are not useful, but because it is easier to do whatever they do, on other professions, even if the Ranger or Engineer does it better.
It is a matter of skillcap. And saying the GvG Scene consists of highly skilled players, while not entirely wrong, it is not completely true. GvG players got great synergy, tactics and movement. But in the end, it IS but a small scale ZvZ. That has been optimized to fit a certain tactic using specific professions for specific tasks in order to execute a preset dynamic tactical pattern. Individual skill is not needed as much as the ability to perform a certain role. And beyond that point, there is not much for you to do.
The guards take care of brunt the healing, the warriors do the brunt of the CC. Not the other way around. This way, each profession does what it does best, without interfering with other professions or sacrificing its own performance.

Like most players, i know quite a few good GvG guilds, and no offense to them, but their individual player skill does not impress me. Their synergy as a group and the way they use terrain and movement however is very impressive.

Bottom line is, it takes EFFORT to produce results with a ranger. And the GvG scene is competitive, but in a different way then say an athlete or a proper e-sport player. I honestly have yet to see that crazy “must win at all costs” attitude here in GW2. Unlike Dota, LoL,CS and SC this game does not offer much to the most hardcore of competitive gamers. It’s too easy and too casual. Thus most players here are a bit laid back and casual, despite being driven by a competitive instinct. However, unlike true athletes, be it RL or E-sports, you cannot expect players who play a game, primarily for fun, to choose “Hard Mode” when everything else is designed to be played in “Easy Mode”.

Prysin.8542:

@Ather
The GvG scene in general is saturated with elitism and profession “racism”. This is why Engineers and Rangers are almost barred. Not because they are not useful, but because it is easier to do whatever they do, on other professions, even if the Ranger or Engineer does it better.

However, unlike true athletes, be it RL or E-sports, you cannot expect players who play a game, primarily for fun, to choose “Hard Mode” when everything else is designed to be played in “Easy Mode”.

No, Rangers are not sought in GvG because….as stated and proved many, many, many, times, they are NOT as useful as other classes. Sorry, your posts show you are denial and you will argue with facts. Good for you….keep up the good fight. But at least know you are only fooling or convincing yourself. Not many others buy into the utter BS you are spewing.

And did you seriously call people that participate in E-sports true athletes? Really?

Vaxx.3178:

And did you seriously call people that participate in E-sports true athletes? Really?

Those who actually reach the level where they get paid to play and participate in tournaments have the same kinda drive as any real life sports athlete. Physique wise, they may be inferior, but the instincts, the lust for victory and the drive to keep going is pretty much similar.
Oh, and apparently, chess is considered a real sport, on the same level as football and hockey is. So, if a chess player can be a “sportsman” then so can a e-sport player.

eSport players are technical athletes. As in they hold the title in name only. Most people do not consider bowlers, eSports players, dart throwers, etc as athletes. I would argue it takes physical exertion AND skill in a sport before someone should be called an athlete. If it is something that can be mastered without physical exertion, then it isn’t athletic. Something like pitching walks a fine line with this definition.

So Rangers are the masters of the wilderness, one with nature, able to kill foes from a distance with their keen eyes and steady bow….yeah, right.

Rangers should be the fleetest footed (yet we get a measly +25% speed boost with Signet of the Hunt)…bump that 50% or more…let rangers stay in bow range no matter how fast a warrior can fly.

Prysin.8542:

Straegen.2938:

Prysin.8542:

Rangers – universally underestimated, misunderstood and trivialized by the wast wast majority . Seems like there needs to be made some kick kitten videos.

The problem is WvW skilled players are not seeing these great rangers. Almost nobody who is a great fighter is running this class in WvW and there is a reason for it. They are rare in GvG, few want them in skill groups and it is unusual to find one that lasts in a roaming fight more than a few seconds. Very few can survive my thief burst and none have ever bested my warrior solo. When my warrior runs into a condi-bunker Ranger it is a free meal thanks to Cleansing Ire, heavy condition reduction and tons of control output. Only necros and engis are able to apply conditions fast enough that last long enough to matter against that build.

warriorjrd.8695:

Rangers are probably only beaten my necros in terms of conditions. You should check out trapper builds. BM bunker is very good for roaming too.

No ranger build I have ever seen can out condition a conditioning necro or engi. I ran a Ranger BM condition build for hundreds of hours in WvW pre-pet nerf. I still run one in PvE since that is the toon that has map completion. My necro even with the nerfed Dhuumfire build is a much stronger condition spiker than my Ranger. Signet of Spite, Corrupt Boon, Epidemic, Plague Form, etc as well as the vast array of traits that proc conditions make the necro condition disgusting. The Tor/Fear condi builds are evil.

BM Condi bunker doesnt cut close to trapper in condition damage and pressure. I bet my drake pet’s burst alone could make your warrior wet it’s pants. Not to mention the lynx pet which gives you heavy bleed damage.
Last time i checked. within 3 seconds, i can apply 900 damage/second burn (lasts around 9 seconds), 900 damage/second poison (lasts about 1 minute or so), (23 stacks) 1600 damage/second bleed, cripple, immobilize (25~ish seconds), chill.
Within 16~20 seconds i can apply almost everything again. and again, and again, and again. Also, sword + dagger and a shred of timing = your hammer will probably never hit me unless i stop paying attention.

EDIT: Bear in mind that the necro is supposed to be the king of conditions. So if it couldnt do it better then rangers, the whole profession would be utterly broken. As for condition pressure. Necro is undoubtedly at top, with ranger/engineer tied for second place. Followed by Perplexity users.

Some key factors here

1. With all this super condi dmg, can you provide group stability, group cleansing, group DPS buffs, group defensive buffs all on almost spammable low CDs ?

2. What are your other stats in this build ? Are you as survivable as a guard/war/bunker necro/ bunker ele ? How many stun breakers do you have ? How many stabilities do you have, note thats stunbreakers and stabilities, not stunbreaker or stability, big difference there.

3. The pet …… lawl Anything ivolving pet, be it a skill, trait, utility is a complete and utter waste in group on group situation.

Tongku.5326:

Some key factors here

1. With all this super condi dmg, can you provide group stability, group cleansing, group DPS buffs, group defensive buffs all on almost spammable low CDs ?

2. What are your other stats in this build ? Are you as survivable as a guard/war/bunker necro/ bunker ele ? How many stun breakers do you have ? How many stabilities do you have, note thats stunbreakers and stabilities, not stunbreaker or stability, big difference there.

3. The pet …… lawl Anything ivolving pet, be it a skill, trait, utility is a complete and utter waste in group on group situation.

With Trapper – no, that is a egocentrical build.

With BM Shout spirit bunker, yes. You can provide group cleansing, group DPS, Group defensive buffs. Easily. You cannot apply group stability because ranger has none, its a shame, but thats how it is.

With the Shout-Spirit bunker you can grant burning on attack, protection on attack, healing on attack or a big fat waterfield with condi cleanses every 2 seconds, 50% fury uptime, permanent regeneration, permanent swiftness, 3 sources of AOE group condition clears, the lowest CD being 1 pr 12sec. Second lowest CD is 2 every 20sec.
I could drop one spirit, either protection or burning in favor of Signet of Renewal, which strips ALL conditions from 4 allies + myself instantly….
My build is a mix of dire and clerics. So you get medium direct damage and medium condition damage. It is purely meant for group support, and works by never letting an enemy get the better of you, meaning if the enemy has a lot of cleanses you still do damage, if the enemy is tanky with fewer cleanses, you still do damage. For roaming you either have to go full condition or full power. In most cases you only need to change 4 armor/4trinket pieces in the gear for it to change from group to roaming.
Weapons are Sword + Dagger and Shortbow for bleed stacking and direct DPS.
Pets is Brown Bear for AOE condition cleanse (it has instant cast, so even in heavy skill lag, it performs its F2 about 75% of the time. which to me is acceptable) and to soak up the damage from all conditions myself and allies got. Bringing a bear also has the side effect that people think you run Bearbow and target you first. A grave mistake as my build is very evasion heavy. The condition part relies on poison and burning, with bleed stacks being secondary. Thanks to this, cleansing ire and dogged march is less effective. And healing signet takes a big hit. Oh and yes, i designed this build to counter the hammer meta when running a 15v15 group. It works, even in 80 man blobs. You won’t tag much with the SB, so it is advised to carry a GS for zerging instead of SB.

As for stunbreakers, you got 2. The bear pet and signet. 1 if taking two spirits. Mind you, the only thing that can down my ranger build fast enough is 2 zerker thieves and 1 necro working together. No other combination has been able to down it before i can start up the healing chain or cleanse my conditions again.
Hammerstuns are easier to avoid now, and thus i rely more on the evade skills. of which i got 3 on sword+dagger, 1 on SB and 2x dodges. all on low CD’s (longest CD is 15seconds)

Prysin.8542:

Tongku.5326:

Some key factors here

1. With all this super condi dmg, can you provide group stability, group cleansing, group DPS buffs, group defensive buffs all on almost spammable low CDs ?

2. What are your other stats in this build ? Are you as survivable as a guard/war/bunker necro/ bunker ele ? How many stun breakers do you have ? How many stabilities do you have, note thats stunbreakers and stabilities, not stunbreaker or stability, big difference there.

3. The pet …… lawl Anything ivolving pet, be it a skill, trait, utility is a complete and utter waste in group on group situation.

With Trapper – no, that is a egocentrical build.

With BM Shout spirit bunker, yes. You can provide group cleansing, group DPS, Group defensive buffs. Easily. You cannot apply group stability because ranger has none, its a shame, but thats how it is.

With the Shout-Spirit bunker you can grant burning on attack, protection on attack, healing on attack or a big fat waterfield with condi cleanses every 2 seconds, 50% fury uptime, permanent regeneration, permanent swiftness, 3 sources of AOE group condition clears, the lowest CD being 1 pr 12sec. Second lowest CD is 2 every 20sec.
I could drop one spirit, either protection or burning in favor of Signet of Renewal, which strips ALL conditions from 4 allies + myself instantly….
My build is a mix of dire and clerics. So you get medium direct damage and medium condition damage. It is purely meant for group support, and works by never letting an enemy get the better of you, meaning if the enemy has a lot of cleanses you still do damage, if the enemy is tanky with fewer cleanses, you still do damage. For roaming you either have to go full condition or full power. In most cases you only need to change 4 armor/4trinket pieces in the gear for it to change from group to roaming.
Weapons are Sword + Dagger and Shortbow for bleed stacking and direct DPS.
Pets is Brown Bear for AOE condition cleanse (it has instant cast, so even in heavy skill lag, it performs its F2 about 75% of the time. which to me is acceptable) and to soak up the damage from all conditions myself and allies got. Bringing a bear also has the side effect that people think you run Bearbow and target you first. A grave mistake as my build is very evasion heavy. The condition part relies on poison and burning, with bleed stacks being secondary. Thanks to this, cleansing ire and dogged march is less effective. And healing signet takes a big hit. Oh and yes, i designed this build to counter the hammer meta when running a 15v15 group. It works, even in 80 man blobs. You won’t tag much with the SB, so it is advised to carry a GS for zerging instead of SB.

As for stunbreakers, you got 2. The bear pet and signet. 1 if taking two spirits. Mind you, the only thing that can down my ranger build fast enough is 2 zerker thieves and 1 necro working together. No other combination has been able to down it before i can start up the healing chain or cleanse my conditions again.
Hammerstuns are easier to avoid now, and thus i rely more on the evade skills. of which i got 3 on sword+dagger, 1 on SB and 2x dodges. all on low CD’s (longest CD is 15seconds)

Again, you are counting on Spirits and Pets for abilities in large scale WvW…lawl. You might have some valid arguments if Spirits and Pets didn’t insta die in larger fights, but again you are more theory and a lot less reality.

After playing my Ranger extensively, roaming and zerging, I’ve found that although yes; they don’t bring as much utility to a zerg as other professions, they can still be an asset. I’ve gotten more loot bags on this profession than any of the others I’ve played simply because no one attacks me. I perch myself in a comfortable spot and tab-target people and just watch the bags build around my feet. If you think you’ve never been killed by a Ranger I think it’s more that you don’t know you’ve been killed by one. That’s like being in the middle of a battlefield with hundreds of people firing their weapons and being hit by a sniper no where near you. Of course you’re going to think it was the guy next to you with a machine gone, that doesn’t mean that it was.

But I digress, their DPS is somewhat lacking and they certainly don’t bring the utility to a zerg that other professions do. Still, when roaming they’re extremely effective, and if played correctly in large group battles you can get a lot of easy kills. While everyone is swinging their swords and throwing their spells I’m sitting on the outer rim sniping any one who tries to escape with low health.

I don’t hate rangers.

Prysin.8542:

However, that “isn’t good enough”. It seems it doesn’t matter what the ranger brings because no matter what it is, it got to be terrible and useless. However if a warrior applies the same boons, and they last pretty much just as long, or shorter in the case of Regeneration and Swiftness, it is good. Because a warrior applied it. This mentality makes no sense.

Rangers are the weakest class in large zerg fights, their weapon skills and class mechanics (pets and spirits die easily) make them less suited for big fights than other classes. The melee weapons have small combat “duelist” type skills, not “smash things together with the big army” skills. The ranged weapons lack high damage and AOE.

Warriors and guardians are much better as frontliners, and rangers lack good ranged AOE. The support they provide can be covered by other classes with higher DPS, more CC, or even stronger support. The class functions much better in smaller fights. Rangers are not absolutely terrible and useless, but they have the lowest potential of all classes in zergs. I would say that many mesmer builds face similar problems, but mesmer support is unique and powerful enough such that mesmers have a common role in zergs.

Perhaps whatever resentment/hate for rangers exists comes from the rallying mechanic and player limit in WvW, which can allow a player to be seen as a liability in a competitive setting. Some possible lines of thought:

- “If that ranger were another class, he would’ve contributed more before dying and allowing enemies to rally. He had negative value for the team.”
- “If that ranger weren’t here on this queued map, someone playing a stronger zerg class could’ve joined, and we would have had a better chance of winning that fight. We pay an opportunity cost by having this ranger in the zerg.”

Straegen.2938:

albotelho.2931:

Boonprot.6274:

Rangers and Engis are in the same boat. Jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none. When you build team comps for WvW you have to look at what each class can bring individually to the group. Turns out that the group support that a Ranger brings to the table is outclassed by other professions.

Engis are far away in a better position than the Ranger.

Engis are a difficult class to master but when you run into one that is played well you will likely never forget it. They are a roaming class that can make even the most skilled players say “what the hell just happened”. They are also far more dangerous underwater despite what most Rangers believe.

^ thats it.

voidwater.2064:

Warriors and guardians are much better as frontliners, and rangers lack good ranged AOE. The support they provide can be covered by other classes with higher DPS, more CC, or even stronger support. The class functions much better in smaller fights. Rangers are not absolutely terrible and useless, but they have the lowest potential of all classes in zergs. I would say that many mesmer builds face similar problems, but mesmer support is unique and powerful enough such that mesmers have a common role in zergs.

1st i will note that unless the mesmer has veil + portal and mass invis/nullfield it is even more useless then a ranger. This means that Mesmers are pidgeonholed into one single build, and any variation thereof is even more useless to the zerg then any ranger build is. This is bad for the mesmer, as it creates a “unspoken law” as to how to build a mesmer, completely ignoring the overall goal of “have fun”. The mesmer also suffers from having bad AOE/tagging capabilities. So both for the player behind the mesmer, and the mesmer profession, the current meta is hurting them.

2nd -

“If that ranger were another class, he would’ve contributed more before dying and allowing enemies to rally. He had negative value for the team.”

That very same goes for all the zerker warriors that end up rallybotting on the first push, or all the eles being wiped because they think it’s wise to follow the melee train instead of kiting the enemy zerg. Or the guardians who bring hammers and spam lightfields ontop of any field you place. Sure its fun to have retal, but what we wanted was to blast that waterfield. Not some kitten light field.
And let us not forget all them necromancers who believe they are godlike, and doesnt stick with the melee train, resulting in 0 stability and one dead necro.

95% of the time, it is the player that is at fault, not the profession. the remaining 5% is due to all the horribly weak, useless, misplaced, unlogical and unreliable functions that are tied to the ranger.

voidwater.2064:

- “If that ranger weren’t here on this queued map, someone playing a stronger zerg class could’ve joined, and we would have had a better chance of winning that fight. We pay an opportunity cost by having this ranger in the zerg.”

And the odds for you getting a “stronger zerg class” is about 3/8. If a ranger leaves, you are most likely getting anything BUT the 3 classes you want the most (Warrior, Guard and Necro).
It is even more reasonable to assume, that you will end up with a PvE hero, trying to get some achievements done, or possibly do map completion, or hey, you might even get an upscaled player.

Wishing a player was not there, is bullying. Bullying people online, is no less hurtful to the one on the receiving end as doing it IRL. If you don’t want the ranger in your zerg, tell him and whatever other profession you do not want in “your” zerg, to go snipe some camps and dollies.
Rangers are not super useful beyond 15 man teams, however they are second only to PU mesmers in roaming. Best thing is, PvE builds, like bearbow, works fine in roaming.

Instead of crying about who should be allowed to do this or that or even play, find a use for them. If the player, regardless of profession, ends up being a liability to the zerg, send them off doing something else, something constructive, instead of rejecting the player and bullying them for the choices they made. Be a TAD mature, and THINK before you start telling people to bugger off and get a guard or warrior.

On that note:
A bad player is a bad player, be it a warrior, guard, necro, ranger, thief, ele, mesmer or engineer. If you play bad, you gonna end up rallybotting.
Those who rallybot in the first place, do so, because they do not want to play WvW the way you or anyone else wants to for that sake. They want to do their own thing. Rallybotting is the result.

Rangers don’t bring much to zerg fights except the ability to hit the enemy commander with Entangle and I believe Engineers, Thieves, Mesmers and even Warriors are better roamers. In addition I seem to come across a lot of dead Rangers in WvW.

@Prysin: I’m with ya dude. Seriously, I don’t understand the vitriol against rangers. i just don’t. I’ve come up on my fair share of rangers that wrecked me. They were kitted up well and they knew their skills. have I come across ones that I wrecked? Sure. same goes for EVERY OTHER class as well. Hell, my engie is constantly rolling over people these days, even 1v5. If your server is ever getting real nasty about having a ranger around, come on down to my neck of the woods. Happy hunting dude. Don’t let the fools get ya down.

engineers and thieves and mesmers are excellent roamers. But warrior is a joke. 1v1 a warrior is about as dangerous as a angry chihuahua on steroids. It might bite, but you don’t need to put in much effort to reign it in

Prysin.8542:

Mesmers are pidgeonholed into one single build, and any variation thereof is even more useless to the zerg then any ranger build is. This is bad for the mesmer, as it creates a “unspoken law” as to how to build a mesmer, completely ignoring the overall goal of “have fun”.

Funny that you’d adress another wonderful aspect of the ranger, though in another game mode.

“OMG! y u no play spotter/frost spirit/sword/warhorn??! L2P u bearbow. /kick”

I love my ranger, and have a ton of fun with it in wvw, including zerging. But i’m perfectly conscious that i’d bring much more and with less effort on many other classes. For having dusted off my warrior this week, it’s insanely noticeable. At the end of the day, i’m privileging my own fun to the server’s efficiency.

Somewhere along this thread you mentioned people shouldn’t take their own personal experience for a generality. You may want to think about it. Maybe, just maybe, it isn’t the entire wvw player base minus you that is wrong on rangers being that awesome…

cafard.8953:

Prysin.8542:

Mesmers are pidgeonholed into one single build, and any variation thereof is even more useless to the zerg then any ranger build is. This is bad for the mesmer, as it creates a “unspoken law” as to how to build a mesmer, completely ignoring the overall goal of “have fun”.

Funny that you’d adress another wonderful aspect of the ranger, though in another game mode.

“OMG! y u no play spotter/frost spirit/sword/warhorn??! L2P u bearbow. /kick”

I love my ranger, and have a ton of fun with it in wvw, including zerging. But i’m perfectly conscious that i’d bring much more and with less effort on many other classes. For having dusted off my warrior this week, it’s insanely noticeable. At the end of the day, i’m privileging my own fun to the server’s efficiency.

Somewhere along this thread you mentioned people shouldn’t take their own personal experience for a generality. You may want to think about it. Maybe, just maybe, it isn’t the entire wvw player base minus you that is wrong on rangers being that awesome…

I am fully aware of the shortcomings. However those are manageable, to an extent.
The main grief people seem to have with rangers, aside from warrior being oh so sexy, is that “the pet dies” all the time. “Spirits dies instantly”.
Well, sure they do, and if you bring a zerker warrior into the brunt force of the well’s and marks spam, your warrior dies too. Anyone dies if you let them linger around in AOE. Now i am not saying the shortcomings of this profession doesn’t exist, i’m saying you can lessen/circumvent the issues by simply keeping a few things in mind, and that would be Position, position, position, position, position, position and so on.
If you stand in a red circle, you take damage, and if you are inside the red circle, so will your pet and spirits be too. So unless you are an idiot that doesn’t try to avoid AOE at all, then your spirits should be fine. If you are an idiot and walks straight into red circles and stay in it to cast barrage or whirling axes, then you certainly are an idiot and you + your spirits will die.

There are exceptions to this however. Chokepoints will forever be a grief when it comes to pets and spirits, however, AOE + chokepoint = kill anything that wanders into it. Be it a bunker guardian or a frost spirit.

Just because the player may have 20k+ HP, and 3k+ armor, that does not mean you should ignore AOE like it has no impact at all. It does actually impact you, and in worst case, ignoring that AOE can either kill you or lower your HP enough to be 1-shotted by any random enemy pug. Careless play are punished appropriately.

rangers WERE my favorite class before Shortbow range nerf. It was absolutely perfect for my play style. I love being acrobatic and survivable, and my ranger was actually very viable in wvw before that sb nerf. was 1200 range, now it’s 900…FARRRR to short a range when you factor in using your #3 sb skill which makes you leap back and evade on attack, which is imperative to an acrobatic ranger. If they would at least make it 1,000 range it might be more viable. Shortbow or not, rangers should be able to do a bit more range than a thief with a short bow imo. Anyway, i’m not going to complain. I’ve been playing since prelaunch, and have 9 toons and all classes…SO…when anet nerfs something i really liked, i just go play a different class.

Prysin, you seem terribly insecure about your class choice, enough to go make a forum post asking for negative opinions, so you can hang around and defend Ranger.

Just play the class if you really like it and stop worrying about other people’s opinions.

Prysin.8542:

That very same goes for all the zerker warriors that end up rallybotting on the first push, or all the eles being wiped because they think it’s wise to follow the melee train instead of kiting the enemy zerg. Or the guardians who bring hammers and spam lightfields ontop of any field you place. Sure its fun to have retal, but what we wanted was to blast that waterfield. Not some kitten light field.
And let us not forget all them necromancers who believe they are godlike, and doesnt stick with the melee train, resulting in 0 stability and one dead necro.

95% of the time, it is the player that is at fault, not the profession. the remaining 5% is due to all the horribly weak, useless, misplaced, unlogical and unreliable functions that are tied to the ranger.

I don’t disagree, but that doesn’t change how ranger is weak for zerg combat. That’s a dumb argument, anyone on any class can play badly. The floor is just as low for all classes, but the ceiling is higher for some classes. In a zerg, ranger is not one of the high ceiling classes.

Prysin.8542:

And the odds for you getting a “stronger zerg class” is about 3/8. If a ranger leaves, you are most likely getting anything BUT the 3 classes you want the most (Warrior, Guard and Necro).
It is even more reasonable to assume, that you will end up with a PvE hero, trying to get some achievements done, or possibly do map completion, or hey, you might even get an upscaled player.

Note that some classes are much more popular than others, warrior for example, your 3/8 odds are probably off significantly.

Since I don’t know the exact distribution of player skill/reasons for playing WvW (e.g., PVE heroes as % of population), I will not attempt to speculate on those specific probabilities without the necessary information, unlike what you are doing.

You have a bad habit of trying to distort reality to promote your view, here you are making assumptions about probabilities to dismiss my point about opportunity cost.

Prysin.8542:

Wishing a player was not there, is bullying. Bullying people online, is no less hurtful to the one on the receiving end as doing it IRL. If you don’t want the ranger in your zerg, tell him and whatever other profession you do not want in “your” zerg, to go snipe some camps and dollies.
Rangers are not super useful beyond 15 man teams, however they are second only to PU mesmers in roaming. Best thing is, PvE builds, like bearbow, works fine in roaming.

Instead of crying about who should be allowed to do this or that or even play, find a use for them. If the player, regardless of profession, ends up being a liability to the zerg, send them off doing something else, something constructive, instead of rejecting the player and bullying them for the choices they made. Be a TAD mature, and THINK before you start telling people to bugger off and get a guard or warrior.

Personally, I don’t care too much about what my team runs, the only thing that really annoys me is cowardly people running away from fights that could be won instead of helping their teammates.

If I see an enemy ranger that doesn’t have a sword, I am happy for the most likely free kill.

But you asked why rangers are hated, and I offered you general reasons why any relatively weak class or bad player might attract resentment/hate. You can moralize all you want, but that mentality exists.

Straegen.2938:

albotelho.2931:

Boonprot.6274:

Rangers and Engis are in the same boat. Jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none. When you build team comps for WvW you have to look at what each class can bring individually to the group. Turns out that the group support that a Ranger brings to the table is outclassed by other professions.

Engis are far away in a better position than the Ranger.

Engis are a difficult class to master but when you run into one that is played well you will likely never forget it. They are a roaming class that can make even the most skilled players say “what the hell just happened”. They are also far more dangerous underwater despite what most Rangers believe.

Yes, that’s nice and all, but I’d still never bring an engi or a ranger to a raid over any other class, no matter the individual’s skill level. Scratch that, the ONLY time I’d ever bring an engi is if we were running our cheese condi comp. They’re useful for prepping epidemic.

As for roaming, do whatever you want. Engi and ranger are both absurdly strong 1v1 classes. Good thing GW2 is largely broken and imbalanced in 1v1 settings.

Prysin.8542:

engineers and thieves and mesmers are excellent roamers. But warrior is a joke. 1v1 a warrior is about as dangerous as a angry chihuahua on steroids. It might bite, but you don’t need to put in much effort to reign it in

When you say things like this it makes you seem uneducated. Hammer/GS warriors are pretty easy to time but still dangerous particularly those that run zerk. Eviscerate, Skullcrack and the many variations of those builds hit harder than almost any other class.

Boonprot.6274:

As for roaming, do whatever you want. Engi and ranger are both absurdly strong 1v1 classes. Good thing GW2 is largely broken and imbalanced in 1v1 settings.

Ranger is not absurdly strong 1v1 in WvW. In my experience it is the easiest class to beat on average. There is no clkitten dangerous on average in the game.

Straegen.2938:

Prysin.8542:

engineers and thieves and mesmers are excellent roamers. But warrior is a joke. 1v1 a warrior is about as dangerous as a angry chihuahua on steroids. It might bite, but you don’t need to put in much effort to reign it in

When you say things like this it makes you seem uneducated. Hammer/GS warriors are pretty easy to time but still dangerous particularly those that run zerk. Eviscerate, Skullcrack and the many variations of those builds hit harder than almost any other class.

Boonprot.6274:

As for roaming, do whatever you want. Engi and ranger are both absurdly strong 1v1 classes. Good thing GW2 is largely broken and imbalanced in 1v1 settings.

Ranger is not absurdly strong 1v1 in WvW. In my experience it is the easiest class to beat on average. There is no clkitten dangerous on average in the game.

There are some exceptionally strong Rangers out there. One of them, who was on Mag, used to duel people naked with only his weapons equipped and won more matches than he lost. Did this against YB, SBI, TC, and FA.

It’s easiest to beat on average because most people actually use longbows/shortbows.

I only hate the good ones that are very rarely found on WvW roaming because I let my guard down and get downed by them. I like most of the other ranger players because they are easy kill for my Ele.

I’ve been trying to find things that a ranger can do for a large scale situation. To that end I found some builds that could work and some features to go with.

Spirit bombing: Use the Nature Magic trait that makes spirits activate on death and the one that makes them follow you. Combine with runes of Rata Sum. Since spirits die easily you can make them trigger immobilize, blind, cripple, and chill as the enemy zerg nukes them. Use power build gear.

Trapway: Loadout spike trap, flame trap, and snake trap. Paltry as a single ranger but if you group that up it becomes the trapway from old GW1. You could wipe an enemy zerg with 5 or more rangers all trapping like this. Use power build gear. Use some condition damage for the flame trap’s damage.

Longbow traits on the Marksmanship line: Use both the range and arrow piercing ones. This makes your longbow shots all technically AOE, even if that aoe is just a line. This trait selection with any WvW build for grouping.

Pets: Krytan Hound and Wolf are probably the best metagame pets to have right now for activate effects. The wolf does AOE fear, the Hound does AOE immobilize. If you keep them on passive they’ll follow you except when you order the F2 activate effect.

That listed the real problem with rangers in zergs is efficiency. Warriors have to do 5 things to be successful in a zerg. Rangers have to do 20 to be as effective. This is where ANET’s balance breaks and why other classes out-class the ranger. That is also why rangers are not preferred in large scale combat. My ele can do a water field and nuke. My necro can do traps and nuke chokes. Just about the only thing ranger can do better than anyone else is immobilize (probably what anet made IMMOB stack). I’ve been looking for something for rangers to do for a long time. This is because the guilds I’ve been in have a large population of rangers and they want to WvW. Some well known commanders on Dragonbrand mained rangers until they saw how easy the other classes have it.

It’s simply easier to play something other than a ranger in WvW. Additionally if that player puts the same amount of effort playing the easier class then that class becomes more powerful than the ranger.

Boonprot.6274:

There are some exceptionally strong Rangers out there. One of them, who was on Mag, used to duel people naked with only his weapons equipped and won more matches than he lost. Did this against YB, SBI, TC, and FA.

It’s easiest to beat on average because most people actually use longbows/shortbows.

Rangers pre-BM nerf were dangerous. I believe that is the build that fellow used. It was particularly dangerous because most players ignored the pet which would then drop an 8k plus hit. This doesn’t happen any longer after the patch. This is also why we don’t see many (any?) Rangers showing up for WvW dueling these days.

Today, most skilled players have little to fear from a Ranger. Condi-bunker ones do not condi-bunker better than necros or engis which we are used to fighting. Power based ones aren’t even close to burst thieves or mesmers which we are used to fighting. Evasion ones have half the power of a thief and are again less dangerous. GS/S movement ones are not as fast as either the warrior or thief. Essentially no WvW build they have is a surprise or built in a way that is different from other classes that do it better. Almost every build they have is fought in a far stronger form in another class. Rangers simply feel like other watered down classes in fights.

Entangle… if that thing catches someone in a zerg they are doing something horribly wrong. Entangle drops immobilize which should never catch a commander at least not catch one that is half decent.

As soon as I see a Ranger pop that elite in any fight, I know they have made a horrible life choice. Great for catching scrubs that don’t understand conditions and immobilize I suppose.

Straegen.2938:

Entangle… if that thing catches someone in a zerg they are doing something horribly wrong. Entangle drops immobilize which should never catch a commander at least not catch one that is half decent.

As soon as I see a Ranger pop that elite in any fight, I know they have made a horrible life choice. Great for catching scrubs that don’t understand conditions and immobilize I suppose.

AOE immob with 0.5s activation (pretty much instant). Good luck evading it if the ranger is actually going for you. Same goes for warrior immobs too. Good luck evading instant cast attacks when you got 60-70 other people, skill lag, ping lag and whatnot going on at once.
1v1 w/commander tag, sure, no prob.

Straegen.2938:

Boonprot.6274:

There are some exceptionally strong Rangers out there. One of them, who was on Mag, used to duel people naked with only his weapons equipped and won more matches than he lost. Did this against YB, SBI, TC, and FA.

It’s easiest to beat on average because most people actually use longbows/shortbows.

Rangers pre-BM nerf were dangerous. I believe that is the build that fellow used. It was particularly dangerous because most players ignored the pet which would then drop an 8k plus hit. This doesn’t happen any longer after the patch. This is also why we don’t see many (any?) Rangers showing up for WvW dueling these days.

Today, most skilled players have little to fear from a Ranger. Condi-bunker ones do not condi-bunker better than necros or engis which we are used to fighting. Power based ones aren’t even close to burst thieves or mesmers which we are used to fighting. Evasion ones have half the power of a thief and are again less dangerous. GS/S movement ones are not as fast as either the warrior or thief. Essentially no WvW build they have is a surprise or built in a way that is different from other classes that do it better. Almost every build they have is fought in a far stronger form in another class. Rangers simply feel like other watered down classes in fights.

Naw this was a week or so ago.

Prysin.8542:

I am fully aware of the shortcomings. However those are manageable, to an extent.
The main grief people seem to have with rangers, aside from warrior being oh so sexy, is that “the pet dies” all the time. “Spirits dies instantly”.
Well, sure they do, and if you bring a zerker warrior into the brunt force of the well’s and marks spam, your warrior dies too. Anyone dies if you let them linger around in AOE.

See here is the problem you seem to not able to face….Ranger’s mechanic IS tied to pets. Once the pet is dead the Ranger loses its mechanic/dps/boons/cleansing, etc. Soooo….the fact that the pet dies rather quickly in any large fight just reinforces that fact.

You can try as hard as possible to avoid AoE’s but you WILL get hit by them, and your pet WILL die to them and spirits will die faster to them. Hell even just the cleaves take out spirits fast.

So why would someone want a class missing skills because if stupid AI over another in large scale WvW? They wouldn’t.

Prysin.8542:

AOE immob with 0.5s activation (pretty much instant). Good luck evading it if the ranger is actually going for you. Same goes for warrior immobs too. Good luck evading instant cast attacks when you got 60-70 other people, skill lag, ping lag and whatnot going on at once.
1v1 w/commander tag, sure, no prob.

Entangling Roots is a joke. Mobile Strikes, Stealth, or good ol AoE takes care of those rather easily, then you have a Ranger with a long elite cooldown, and one without Stability (Rampage As One) slotted.

You sure act like you know the class, but the more you post, the more I think you don’t. I assume you don’t play any other classes as well, right? If you did you would have already known some of the things you post are just not true.

Prysin.8542:

AOE immob with 0.5s activation (pretty much instant). Good luck evading it if the ranger is actually going for you. Same goes for warrior immobs too. Good luck evading instant cast attacks when you got 60-70 other people, skill lag, ping lag and whatnot going on at once.
1v1 w/commander tag, sure, no prob.

Stability, block, dodge, blink, condi cleanse, stun breaker or lots of traits. Most zergs run perma stability (barring an enemy necro) and near permanent condi-cleanse both of which allow a player to walk right out of the vines or not become trapped in the first place.

For example a warrior that has Dogged March, Cleansing Ire, Mobile Strikes or a dozen other built in mechanisms can just walk right through it. This also means that a Ranger has almost no stability since their best way to get it isn’t on the bar.

As I stated, Entangle is a gimmick ability that switches out a much better Rampage as One elite that gives up stability, swiftness and real damage with fury and might. When a ranger uses Entangle, I know they aren’t going to have stability any part of a fight unless they are a signet ranger.

Boonprot.6274:

Naw this was a week or so ago.

My server hasn’t faced Maguuma for months so the last time I saw a naked Ranger dueling he was using a modified BM build pre-nerf.

Listening to the live stream sounds like the Ranger is getting some big ole nerfs. Fixing Empathetic Bond is a big one for some Rangers..

Straegen.2938:

Prysin.8542:

AOE immob with 0.5s activation (pretty much instant). Good luck evading it if the ranger is actually going for you. Same goes for warrior immobs too. Good luck evading instant cast attacks when you got 60-70 other people, skill lag, ping lag and whatnot going on at once.
1v1 w/commander tag, sure, no prob.

Stability, block, dodge, blink, condi cleanse, stun breaker or lots of traits. Most zergs run perma stability (barring an enemy necro) and near permanent condi-cleanse both of which allow a player to walk right out of the vines or not become trapped in the first place.

For example a warrior that has Dogged March, Cleansing Ire, Mobile Strikes or a dozen other built in mechanisms can just walk right through it. This also means that a Ranger has almost no stability since their best way to get it isn’t on the bar.

As I stated, Entangle is a gimmick ability that switches out a much better Rampage as One elite that gives up stability, swiftness and real damage with fury and might. When a ranger uses Entangle, I know they aren’t going to have stability any part of a fight unless they are a signet ranger.

Boonprot.6274:

Naw this was a week or so ago.

My server hasn’t faced Maguuma for months so the last time I saw a naked Ranger dueling he was using a modified BM build pre-nerf.

Agreeing with the condi cleanse and traits, however, stability doesn’t counter immob

Why do I hate rangers?

Because too many are people who face-roll the keyboard and they troll their own team with that stupid knockback shot. How many times you are about to deliver a killing blow and the enemy is now 30 ft away.

For every ranger that AoE’s walls, lays down spirits, and uses traps; there is the guys that is just…there.

I love good rangers, but there seems to be more bad rangers than any other class.

warriorjrd.8695:

Agreeing with the condi cleanse and traits, however, stability doesn’t counter immob

Ohppp… tripped me up on that one. Stability usually goes hand in hand with condi removal on most builds so I lumped it in there mistakenly.

Straegen.2938:

Prysin.8542:

AOE immob with 0.5s activation (pretty much instant). Good luck evading it if the ranger is actually going for you. Same goes for warrior immobs too. Good luck evading instant cast attacks when you got 60-70 other people, skill lag, ping lag and whatnot going on at once.
1v1 w/commander tag, sure, no prob.

Stability, block, dodge, blink, condi cleanse, stun breaker or lots of traits. Most zergs run perma stability (barring an enemy necro) and near permanent condi-cleanse both of which allow a player to walk right out of the vines or not become trapped in the first place.

For example a warrior that has Dogged March, Cleansing Ire, Mobile Strikes or a dozen other built in mechanisms can just walk right through it. This also means that a Ranger has almost no stability since their best way to get it isn’t on the bar.

As I stated, Entangle is a gimmick ability that switches out a much better Rampage as One elite that gives up stability, swiftness and real damage with fury and might. When a ranger uses Entangle, I know they aren’t going to have stability any part of a fight unless they are a signet ranger.

Boonprot.6274:

Naw this was a week or so ago.

My server hasn’t faced Maguuma for months so the last time I saw a naked Ranger dueling he was using a modified BM build pre-nerf.

You do know that Stability does nothing to stop immobilize? You do know that right? Right?

Straegen.2938:

Listening to the live stream sounds like the Ranger is getting some big ole nerfs. Fixing Empathetic Bond is a big one for some Rangers..

Havent used EB yet. It is counterproductive to the class itself. Another crime among rangers. One which never seem to go away and affect us hard in WvW.

If pet = ~40% of our DPS then why should we use traits that will kill the pet???
EB = -40% DPS….

Vaxx.3178:

You sure act like you know the class, but the more you post, the more I think you don’t. I assume you don’t play any other classes as well, right? If you did you would have already known some of the things you post are just not true.

Got a Thief, Guardian, Mesmer, Engineer and Ele. Had a warrior but deleted it before it reached level 50. Didnt like it. Spent the slot on a asura ranger instead.

Prysin.8542:

Straegen.2938:

Listening to the live stream sounds like the Ranger is getting some big ole nerfs. Fixing Empathetic Bond is a big one for some Rangers..

Havent used EB yet. It is counterproductive to the class itself. Another crime among rangers. One which never seem to go away and affect us hard in WvW.

If pet = ~40% of our DPS then why should we use traits that will kill the pet???
EB = -40% DPS….

Wilderness Survival is one of the better thought out Ranger trait lines. All the minor traits are good (25% more endurance, protection on dodge and 10% more damage when health over 90%). EB is also one of the best method of reliable condi clear (until they fix it anyway). Condition builds also get a boost going down this line.

The 0/0/30/15/25 condi/bunker build is still a decent build at least compared to other Ranger builds.

Straegen.2938:

Prysin.8542:

Straegen.2938:

Listening to the live stream sounds like the Ranger is getting some big ole nerfs. Fixing Empathetic Bond is a big one for some Rangers..

Havent used EB yet. It is counterproductive to the class itself. Another crime among rangers. One which never seem to go away and affect us hard in WvW.

If pet = ~40% of our DPS then why should we use traits that will kill the pet???
EB = -40% DPS….

Wilderness Survival is one of the better thought out Ranger trait lines. All the minor traits are good (25% more endurance, protection on dodge and 10% more damage when health over 90%). EB is also one of the best method of reliable condi clear (until they fix it anyway). Condition builds also get a boost going down this line.

The 0/0/30/15/25 condi/bunker build is still a decent build at least compared to other Ranger builds.

here’s a secret: Bark Skin works on ALL types of damage…..