Guild Wars 2

Xillllix.3485:

I think that a middle ground could be found, somewhere in the middle between,n “We’ve been working on scoring changes for the last 6 months. Ok? Bye.” and “Hello folks how is it going today?”

Saying that they aknowledge population balance to be a problem is different than saying they’re going to merge servers. I understand that they don’t want to say the latter, but why not come forward with their own view of what the game mode needs?

Resident fleeing destroyed building. So they’re concerned about immersion I guess? That means they’re unlikely to implement many gamelike features that would put the focus away from role playing? It’s less about chess and more about fancy architecture of fire keep corridors. Journey of twisting paths in magical jungle with no concern how it would be like to have large scale battle in such location.

Fine if they think that way, but it should be communicated. We don’t even know what to suggest when we don’t know their values.

Xillllix.3485:

Zenith.6403:

Gaile Gray.6029:

Mike O’Brien explained how we choose to communicate in this forum post a few years ago. What he said was, "We’ve set a clear policy in the past year: we don’t talk speculatively about future development. We don’t want to string you along.

Right. So no talk of future developments. What about priorities and values? How do you see WvW as a game mode and where would you want it to be? What are its best features and what do you feel needs improvement?

Is it all just “management” to you?

It’s also a very bad marketing strategy (for reference compare it with Blizzard’s daily communication and how much of an interest it creates on their forum and reddit), but I understand where they come from in the sense that they made the mistake of spoiling most of HoT before releasing it.

I think that a middle ground could be found, somewhere in the middle between,n “We’ve been working on scoring changes for the last 6 months. Ok? Bye.” and “Hello folks how is it going today?”

Obviously it takes much organization to communicate on an almost daily basis, but the balance changes would be a great place to start since they are so much needed.

That is a good point this guy/gal makes. In my experience in the wvw forums a dev appears outta nowhere starts red posting like crazy, then poof they are gone for months. It is a little strange the communication behavior and it is not streamlined.

Overall, they just need a dedicated wvw dev.

im sorry op. i understand your stance very well to prevent nasty threads. but it doesn’t reflect the reason why the posts exists in the first place. your stance is very much outdated.

the only reason why these post existed in the first place. is to address issues in the glicko/match ups which happened with SoS was stuck in the most unfavorable and locked matchup which was the first forced glicko adjustment

even if the problem is small in comparison to other issues there were still a core issues within these wvw matchup thread that need to be address, that made people angry enough to create these kinds of thread in the first place

One day, when a game breaking issue does come up and its in relation to WvW matchup, and you wont allow that person to address that issue based on your original reasoning. your choosing one ethical stance over another. that can potentially screw WvW and the gw2 experience for a good portion of players

im not saying that you should change your opinion on these threads for existing. i just want to say that Anet devs have to acknowledged the risk you take for having this stance, have good faith in this stance, and take responsibility if whenever your own opinion ends up telling you that your wrong.

as a player, i just hope your not wrong at all. and i hope this stance on these kinds of threads doesn’t jeopardize the game mode for everyone

believe it or not but I think the anet bashing comes from a good place. I know plenty of people (myself included) that really want the game to succeed and get frustered when there aren’t any recent updates/unaddressed problems.

The thread isn’t avout the stances towards anet. It is about pvf/player bashing/server bashing

ArchonWing.9480:

The thread isn’t avout the stances towards anet. It is about pvf/player bashing/server bashing

Taking the OP at face value, yes. It would have actually been better to sticky then lock the post since the topic is presented more as an announcement. This would have prevented derailment. I mainly say this due to the fact no questions were really raised by Gaile’s OP besides it being a PSA (metaphorically speaking) to play nice with fellow players. Which means the topic is really limited in regards to discussion anyway.

Despite this, it’s somewhat useful as a temperature gauge. To me anyway.

Chinchilla.1785:

ArchonWing.9480:

The thread isn’t avout the stances towards anet. It is about pvf/player bashing/server bashing

Taking the OP at face value, yes. It would have actually been better to sticky then lock the post since the topic is presented more as an announcement. This would have prevented derailment. I mainly say this due to the fact no questions were really raised by Gaile’s OP besides it being a PSA (metaphorically speaking) to play nice with fellow players. Which means the topic is really limited in regards to discussion anyway.

Despite this, it’s somewhat useful as a temperature gauge. To me anyway.

Well ,I agree that the motives and timing feel strange. It does seem they need do work harder at anticipating reactions. It actually is kinda funny.

For example, I think we really need to find out what consists “matchup discussion” since this seems to be the crux of the problem. And I am confused, honestly.

Stand The Wall.6987:

believe it or not but I think the anet bashing comes from a good place. I know plenty of people (myself included) that really want the game to succeed and get frustered when there aren’t any recent updates/unaddressed problems.

+1, your most critical customers may be your most loyal and invested. It’s important to remember that the end-user, especially those who are enthusiasts with respect to their total hours played, are a useful tool (if utilized) for determining how to shape the product into something better. Ultimately, as customers, our needs should be met when realistic and in the best interests of the game.

Nothing.4953:

Stand The Wall.6987:

believe it or not but I think the anet bashing comes from a good place. I know plenty of people (myself included) that really want the game to succeed and get frustered when there aren’t any recent updates/unaddressed problems.

+1, your most critical customers may be your most loyal and invested. It’s important to remember that the end-user, especially those who are enthusiasts with respect to their total hours played, are a useful tool (if utilized) for determining how to shape the product into something better. Ultimately, as customers, our needs should be met when realistic and in the best interests of the game.

And there is strong reason to believe that WvWers are fairly low maintenance. We don’t constantky ask nonstop for endkess content and are not out with pitchforks when they arr late by 2 days. Heck,we have been plating the same content more or less for years. We won’t hound Anet because npcs are moved 5 pixels over because it messes with the 12th legendary.

The proof is in the pudding. Just read general discussion

Talk about issues rather than insulting servers. Talk constructively about changes that would benefit the entire WvW community and why, without insulting a portion of that community. That seems to avoid the match up issue.

+1 I really do think Anet has great vision and are neither greedy or short term thinkers, and sometimes i get overly defensive myself with people i perceive to be pointlessly negative which is self defeating sigh.

One of the primary benefits of mmorpg is that it gives a long term virtual world that we really do get attached to – its funny how we react at times online and how it is a million miles away from how you are in real life.

ArchonWing.9480:

…

Well ,I agree that the motives and timing feel strange. It does seem they need do work harder at anticipating reactions. It actually is kinda funny.

For example, I think we really need to find out what consists “matchup discussion” since this seems to be the crux of the problem. And I am confused, honestly.

They do technically attempt to ‘define’ things in this: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Reopen-and-Glicko-Adjustment-Requests-Updated

However, given your own issues with the usage of “matchup discussion,” ANET might want to clarify/redefine that phrase. It appears in their example under “Thread about Worlds.” They show one that demonstrates “matchup discussion” but then explains it’s the bad etiquette is what ANET is after. This probably lends to your confusion on where, and when mods do this. According to that link the “matchup discussion” gets lumped with bad etiquette.

It’s not my job to make up definitions for these conditions ANET perceives as unacceptable. Gaile can reopen an announcement, edit that link, or open up a discussion topic in regards defining “matchup discussion.” I think the link mostly covers things, but it feels like “matchup discussion” isn’t an ideal label.

Personally. I’d try to keep it to one sentence (which is really hard to do).

P.S. Considering the limitations of Gaile’s OP, again, this reply is derailment.

Gaile Gray.6029:

• I hear [this world] is dead
• I don’t like the links between [this world] and [that world]

These are often valid concerns.

the forum be like….

Chinchilla.1785:

ArchonWing.9480:

…

Well ,I agree that the motives and timing feel strange. It does seem they need do work harder at anticipating reactions. It actually is kinda funny.

For example, I think we really need to find out what consists “matchup discussion” since this seems to be the crux of the problem. And I am confused, honestly.

They do technically attempt to ‘define’ things in this: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Reopen-and-Glicko-Adjustment-Requests-Updated

However, given your own issues with the usage of “matchup discussion,” ANET might want to clarify/redefine that phrase. It appears in their example under “Thread about Worlds.” They show one that demonstrates “matchup discussion” but then explains it’s the bad etiquette is what ANET is after. This probably lends to your confusion on where, and when mods do this. According to that link the “matchup discussion” gets lumped with bad etiquette.

It’s not my job to make up definitions for these conditions ANET perceives as unacceptable. Gaile can reopen an announcement, edit that link, or open up a discussion topic in regards defining “matchup discussion.” I think the link mostly covers things, but it feels like “matchup discussion” isn’t an ideal label.

Personally. I’d try to keep it to one sentence (which is really hard to do).

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

Matchup Infraction: any post, or topic that pertains to an individual, a group, a guild, or a server being referenced to or by an opposing individual, group, guild, or server.

Bad Etiquette Infraction: any post, or topic that insults an individual, a group, a guild, or a server.

You can see how this sounds legal, and stuff. Ideally you want plain, and understandable language for a few sentences.

P.S. Considering the limitations of Gaile’s OP, again, this reply is derailment.

Oh, I didn’t even realize that post even existed! Well, they could start be splitting those 2 posts.

ArchonWing.9480:

Chinchilla.1785:

…

They do technically attempt to ‘define’ things in this: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Reopen-and-Glicko-Adjustment-Requests-Updated

However, given your own issues with the usage of “matchup discussion,” ANET might want to clarify/redefine that phrase.

…

Oh, I didn’t even realize that post even existed! Well, they could start [by] splitting those 2 posts.

Yes, it wouldn’t hurt considering the average user might not go to a topic titled “Reopen-and-Glicko-Adjustment-Requests-Updated” with the intent of looking for bad etiquette in “matchup discussions.”

Gaile Gray.6029:

I think some of you made a good point. The title of that thread about undesired forum topics didn’t have a very clear title. I just swapped it out to “Inappropriate Forum Topics.” Think that works?

Dwayna bless you.

Gaile Gray.6029:

If you believe we need a completely separate thread to call out what defines a match-up thread, I can make one. I rather admire Chinchilla’s one-liner on that topic as a definition. I’m hoping to not have a lot of “housekeeping” threads, so am hopeful the one will work.

Another post shouldn’t be necessary now that ‘bad’ things have an identifiable place. This probably concludes this whole thread, but there is another side of the coin that could be addressed. What is considered a good or engaging topic? While there is a past post that discusses it in detail back in the general forums, but I find that I usually don’t visit there (this might be true with other people in specific sections). So again, people are potentially unaware of something that could benefit.

You could copy pasta that into the WvW forums (and presumably other sections) or recreate one in the style of “Inappropriate Forum Topics” with provided forum examples.

Just wanted to show support for Gaile here while being completely incapable of articulating an actual meaningful post.

Omg Gaile, please venture over to the PvP forum and talk about toxicity there please please please.

So I see comments about why a particular matchup has occurred are being closed as being match up threads. Are we not then allowed to discuss why some match ups have occurred or the matchmaking process itself?

morrolan.9608:

Are we not then allowed to discuss why some match ups have occurred or the matchmaking process itself?

There was a thread about a month ago that did discuss this very thing and it got closed as a match-up thread.

Gaile Gray.6029:

anduriell.6280:

Aeolus.3615:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Gaile starts a thread reminding people that trashtalking is against the rules and to try to stick to the topic.

The thread quickly devolves into people trashtalking ANet’s communication policy and trying to discuss whether WvW is abandoned or supported, whether there’s too much moderation or not enough dev communication, and, of course, discussions about condition damage.

And people wonder why the devs are reluctant to offer the occasional quick comment.

We try to compensate the lack of build variety on the forum?

Nah, Gaile started a thread politely telling off the costumers about why they complain so much.
Such costumers defensively are trying to explain her why the complains.

Perfectly normal here.

PS: the people that whine about the complains look even worse than the complains itselves.

No. My post was about player-to-player communication. That it nearly instantly devolved into a broader topic is not surprising, given the past. But let’s be clear: I am not “complaining” about player complaints. I am asking players to be kind to one another, and stop insulting one another with comments like those I mentioned in my initial post. (Which are actual quotes, in the top section.)

WvW combat should happen in the game. It should not take place on the forums in rude posts that insult other players, individually or as a group. This isn’t an opportunity to talk about skill balance – the WvW team does not handle that. This is not a chance to discuss (complain about, argue for) communications from the studio. This is about asking players to not engage in rude commentary towards others.

And that is what this post was and should be about.

I see you answered a moderated and deleted comment where i got some infraction points for it.

Thank you very much.

And now another thread about issues with linkages is blocked as a matchup thread. So I take it we aren’t allowed to discuss specific linkages at all which is just going to far if you want to get honest feedback.

So I have read through most of this. And even though I agree with most of you on the way you would like Anet to communicate, I disagree with the way your calling them out.

They have repeatedly informed everyone of how they intend to communicate! You must (no matter how unnerving it is sometimes) accept their terms, or simply move on. Those are your options atm as I see it.

I now that will not make me Mr. popular, but that is ok too. These “devs” are human too. And they do not need to respond to everything you think is wrong with WvW. Maybe someday they will change their policies, and hold a more open communication line with their customers! Let you know about what all they are planning! But until then you need to respect their way of communicating to us.

Gaile Gray.6029:

I feel that while things may not be perfect, they are not as dire as some forum members paint them

that attitude along with lack of communication and changes like deployable cannons + repair hammer is precisely why people feel like you abandoned the game mode. If you had something to show for all the lack of communication I don’t think people would be half as upset. Instead we got DBL, repair hammers and deployable cannon polls

Gaile Gray.6029:

If you believe we need a completely separate thread to call out what defines a match-up thread, I can make one. I rather admire Chinchilla’s one-liner on that topic as a definition. I’m hoping to not have a lot of “housekeeping” threads, so am hopeful the one will work.

this would be very helpful as I am genuinely confused when I see harmless (or just frustrated) threads by some random server person closed then a bg one that stays open.

Irregardless of topic, Since Gaile Gray seems to actually read this one.
If the developers wish more feedback, and precise feedback. And the community wants a clear way of making things happen, do TWO things

A: set up a “beta test client”. Hooked up to a limited server who only has a few hundred or a few thousand slots. Max 3 hours play time per person per day.

B: identify repeated wishes from whatever community, run a ANET controlled CROWD FUNDING for that project. Then use the money to put one or two software engineers on THAT case. Be clear that project X/Y/Z will only continue for aslong as funding is there. As this project is not in Arena Nets current budget, it will have to be up to the community itself to cover the development cost.

Naturally, since the community would be funding it directly, the community should rightfully deserve active feedback in the form of images/video/small reports on the forums and active communication with the developer on the case.

By doing it this way, everyone gets their way. If you really desire a change to the game. PAY FOR IT!

This game is Pay once and you own it. Parts are free to play. Unlike WoW and other MMOs, this lack of active subscriptions means revenue is highly volatile. As people will only buy gems when they have time off/gets a bonus/gets their salary. This can be frustrating to a company, especially if they have to spend more time making new stuff that people will buy (aka spending time and resources making skins and outfits rather then playable content, in order to get more gem purchases).

These are my two cents. Sorry for derailing the topic.

Prysin.8542:

B: identify repeated wishes from whatever community, run a ANET controlled CROWD FUNDING for that project. Then use the money to put one or two software engineers on THAT case. Be clear that project X/Y/Z will only continue for aslong as funding is there. As this project is not in Arena Nets current budget, it will have to be up to the community itself to cover the development cost.

Naturally, since the community would be funding it directly, the community should rightfully deserve active feedback in the form of images/video/small reports on the forums and active communication with the developer on the case.

By doing it this way, everyone gets their way. If you really desire a change to the game. PAY FOR IT!

This game is Pay once and you own it. Parts are free to play. Unlike WoW and other MMOs, this lack of active subscriptions means revenue is highly volatile. As people will only buy gems when they have time off/gets a bonus/gets their salary. This can be frustrating to a company, especially if they have to spend more time making new stuff that people will buy (aka spending time and resources making skins and outfits rather then playable content, in order to get more gem purchases).

These are my two cents. Sorry for derailing the topic.

You want kickstarter WvW changes? Yeah because all those work really great…

Look, this is what gems are for. We enjoy the game. We pay for gems. We enjoy the game some more. People buying gems is the overall approval of the game. Anet use gem funds to improve the game and we bevome happy. Anet are happy and we are happy. And around it goes. Does it fund specific things? No, of course not. But your “crowdfunding features” wont do that either, because they will fail. It will look like straight up extortion. You want commander tag shapes? Give us tons of money. Want a public tag switch? Give us more money. Want lower AC damage? Oh you better believe that means money! People wont be happy for long.

Dawdler.8521:

Prysin.8542:

B: identify repeated wishes from whatever community, run a ANET controlled CROWD FUNDING for that project. Then use the money to put one or two software engineers on THAT case. Be clear that project X/Y/Z will only continue for aslong as funding is there. As this project is not in Arena Nets current budget, it will have to be up to the community itself to cover the development cost.

Naturally, since the community would be funding it directly, the community should rightfully deserve active feedback in the form of images/video/small reports on the forums and active communication with the developer on the case.

By doing it this way, everyone gets their way. If you really desire a change to the game. PAY FOR IT!

This game is Pay once and you own it. Parts are free to play. Unlike WoW and other MMOs, this lack of active subscriptions means revenue is highly volatile. As people will only buy gems when they have time off/gets a bonus/gets their salary. This can be frustrating to a company, especially if they have to spend more time making new stuff that people will buy (aka spending time and resources making skins and outfits rather then playable content, in order to get more gem purchases).

These are my two cents. Sorry for derailing the topic.

You want kickstarter WvW changes? Yeah because all those work really great…

Look, this is what gems are for. We enjoy the game. We pay for gems. We enjoy the game some more. People buying gems is the overall approval of the game. Anet use gem funds to improve the game and we bevome happy. Anet are happy and we are happy. And around it goes. Does it fund specific things? No, of course not. But your “crowdfunding features” wont do that either, because they will fail. It will look like straight up extortion. You want commander tag shapes? Give us tons of money. Want a public tag switch? Give us more money. Want lower AC damage? Oh you better believe that means money! People wont be happy for long.

Gems are for all of the game. Not specific parts, like you said, and herein lies the issue. Gem sales are already projected into the budget. Anet has a very good idea how much to expect. based on current and past income. So huge spikes in gem purchases will not “greenlight” that tweak to tower XYZ, or the remodeling of commander tags.

Kickstarter? hell no. You do not outsource to others what you can do yourself. Kickstarter will claim a fee for hosting the service, and that will diminish whatever the devs could get for funding.

What you seemingly fail to understand is that it doesnt cost 20k dollars to tweak AC damage, it may cost 200 dollars, 500 dollars. You just need a few hours of engineer time to try and fail. But an engineer WONT spend that time, unless the manager of said engineer can pay for it. Devs have enough work to do, asking them to work for free for lulz is just rude.

But the system can be simplified. Anet can simply tell us the rate of dollars we need to pay for an hour of X/Y/Z type of engineer (designer, coder). Whether these are internal direct salary costs, or cost + revenue margin, we dont need to know. What we would need to know is; How long would it possibly take to do small things? Can the community select and provide parts? Can the community help with code in the event of a standstill?

I am not saying it is the perfect system, but i’d rather donate 20 dollars towards a specific change, then some random arbitrary amount of gems that wont give me even 1% certainty that my desired issue is being even put up for consideration.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Vermillion.4061:

Most of the players in WvW are just upset that nothing has really happened in months and we feel like we’ve been ignored.

We just want to see what is actually going on behind the scenes with WvW, maybe given some DevBlog update style stuff since you’ve been mostly silent on what is changing and being worked on.

Different companies communicate in different ways and sometimes the process evolves over the years. Mike O’Brien explained how we choose to communicate in this forum post a few years ago. What he said was, “We’ve set a clear policy in the past year: we don’t talk speculatively about future development. We don’t want to string you along. Creating fun is an uncertain business: sometimes things work out and sometimes they don’t; sometimes we go back to the drawing board over and over before we get something right. If we make optimistic promises and then can’t deliver on them, everyone suffers. So when we attend a trade show or give an interview, we’re there to talk about what we’re getting ready to ship, not to speculate on what we might ship someday.”

I understand that some players would prefer a different manner of communication. I wanted to share the comments above to show that silence does not point to inaction or neglect or indifference.

We understand about Anet’s policy of not discussing future dev projects etc.

BUT

How’s that working out for y’all? Sales down, Population down, Interest in the game plummeting, Pro League gone, etc. etc. etc.

Not bashing you guys. I just think it’s time to change your tactics b/c the ones you’ve employed aren’t working.

Forgot to add if you feel like players bash devs who post here I’m at a loss if you don’t understand. For years the WvW players have been treated pretty badly. They’ve watched entire guilds up and quit due to the negligence on Anet’s part in regards to this game mode. I know most of my friends list now if forever grey due to Anet’s behavior.

As a team & company you have to step back and ask yourselves. “What would I do in their shoes?”

You’ll realize you guys pretty much deserve these outbursts. I’m not condoning them in the least or will i partake, but I’m just being honest

After this post I feel like the WvW forum is like that middle child you don’t spoil like the small one but you don’t also give the responsibilities as the big one, thus making it become a bit of an outcast who’s always ranting about life.

Jokes aside, I’m having fun watching all the WvW drama lately, it’s kind of entertaining specially since I’m pretty new on the game mode :P

Stand The Wall.6987:

Gaile Gray.6029:

If you believe we need a completely separate thread to call out what defines a match-up thread, I can make one. I rather admire Chinchilla’s one-liner on that topic as a definition. I’m hoping to not have a lot of “housekeeping” threads, so am hopeful the one will work.

this would be very helpful as I am genuinely confused when I see harmless (or just frustrated) threads by some random server person closed then a bg one that stays open.

What are you talking about? All match up threads get closed.

Gaile Gray.6029:

Namer.9750:

I believe that a lot of these threads and posts are an outburst against what the majority see as an utter neglect of the game mode. Whether this statement is objectively true or not doesn’t matter, perceptions do.

I understand. I do appreciate that while we know we’re working on things, and know what we’re working on, the players do not. Our policy is not to give a future-looking accounting of works in progress

The problem is that GuildWars2 releases content sporadically. This means that there are enormous, nine-month long content droughts for even the marquee PvE Living Story content.

This kind of gap means people spread stories about how they’re annoyed that things they dislike about the game aren’t being addressed. And the more time people have to perfuse these dispiriting stories, the more depressed everybody else gets. Whether these tales are true or not doesn’t matter. As long as they are uncontested the miserable mood shall pervade.

I’m sure the solution is clear, and it’s not, “When I’m finished”, Michaelangelo.

i actually kinda hate this thread and everything is on it.

Could we please let it die by not answering it anymore?