Guild Wars 2

CrassBippy.4619:

Anyone who makes excuses as to why ascended is ok for wvw don’t want a balanced pvp game. There is no argument as to why ascended makes things better, it does not.

It is completely unnecessary and is simply a mechanism to retain players and make money. This has nothing ti do with “make it like spvp” its making a gametype balanced. Even footing.

People for ascended are the ones who already play a ton, and don’t care about balanced fights. Its pretty obvious as to why balance promotes pvp play, so all counter arguments are kind of pointless. just scale stats down to exotic in wvw. You keep your fancy weps, game stays easier to balance

Nothing about WvW is promoting “even footing.”
Scale stats up to ascended or make no changes.

CrassBippy.4619:

Anyone who makes excuses as to why ascended is ok for wvw don’t want a balanced pvp game. There is no argument as to why ascended makes things better, it does not.

It is completely unnecessary and is simply a mechanism to retain players and make money. This has nothing ti do with “make it like spvp” its making a gametype balanced. Even footing.

People for ascended are the ones who already play a ton, and don’t care about balanced fights. Its pretty obvious as to why balance promotes pvp play, so all counter arguments are kind of pointless. just scale stats down to exotic in wvw. You keep your fancy weps, game stays easier to balance

WvW is imbalanced, and only balanced by the fact that everyone has to deal with the same imbalances.

sPvP is “balanced” pvp and WvW is open world pvp that lets you use the stuff you accumulate in PvE.

Galen Grey.4709:

Thats not what it means. The iron branch helped a little bit getting one of those two killed but it is not what did it the most. If everything else was equal (ie same character at same level with same upgrade and same skill players just you got an iron branch extra you wouldnt manage to kill one of your 2 attackers) The iron branch is important though because it helps a bit bridge the gap.

Yes, please explain to me what Purge said and explained himself, since you obviously know better than he does. Actually, don’t. Because you are wrong. Because Tread switching for 20 hp is often the one thing that saves you or allows you to get that one kill. Which is what Purge explained, paraphrasing, “Well, guys looks like that switch was the one thing that saved me. The small things matter guys don’t let anybody tell you otherwise”. I don’t know in how many ways I can say the same thing just to have you not understand. I’m beginning to suspect that you might not be able to read english well.

What I would really love to know though is why you’re fighting for a small statistical advantage in DOTA and telling my how crucial it is for the balance of the game while saying exactly the opposite for Gw2. Because I hope you realise Ascended gear is your iron branch in a way right?

Just more evidence that you can’t read. I’m not fighting for statistical advantages – at all. If you read the conversation you’d understand that the DOTA instance is to demonstrate that even small differences can be a big deal in PvP.

As for everything else… please stop replying to my irrelevant questions, I just want you to reply to one important question, the most crucial question of them all. How will removing Ascended gear make balance better in WvW. You said its been said before, I just dont see it. all I’ve been reading is, its more powerful and hard to get. None of that proves removing it will improve balance one bit. But if you think its been said, prove me wrong and Quote it. Thats all you got to do.

Now I know you can’t read.

Shiver.5903:

The big difference with Ascended is also how you can get it, time-gates, how much time you must invest in activites you might dislike, how it is casual/newplayer/alt unfriendly, etc, where Exotics are accessible through all the game formats/modes.

Someone could argue Exotics is hard to get. In the end, the objective is to have an even field to compete, so like many others have stated, if players were to be down-scaled to blue in WvW, I wouldn’t mind, it would still achieve the same objective as removing Ascended from WvW, i.e. making it more balanced.

Perfect balance doesn’t exist in these games, but the idea here is GW2 Game Balance Team can work towards it, instead of against it.

That’s just a random post I found by selecting a random page. At this point I can only surmise you are really just trolling, which I don’t doubt was already deducted by even the most casual readers of the thread.

One more thing The big picture is crucial even though you keep denying it. Playing ostrich and ignoring the other factors will not improve anything. Its like saying I want to help solve world famine so I am going to eat less because on paper that means there will be more food for everyone else. On paper yes thats helpful but in reality? if you dont buy food its not going to those in need, its going to sit on your groccers shelf until it rots away so looking at the big picture its not going to help.

Nobody is saying the big picture should be ignored. Nobody is saying Anet should never attempt to create more balanced server population matchups. Or deal with the stupid Bloodlust stuff, or whatever. We are simply talking about one thing in WvW. If you want to talk about how to destroy the Sith and finally balance the Force then feel free to create your own thread on it, or join in the multitude of threads that discuss other WvW problems.

Galen Grey.4709:

With all due respect I have a feeling its not about balance at all for you. Its just that you want to be as powerful as it can be without having to make an effort. Well sorry but WvW is not a battle about your engagements with the enemy. That alone is not a good enough reason to change anything.

Yes, doubt my intentions, Mr. “I’m not against removing As gear and am actually against As gear but am inexplicably defending it”.

I don’t even really know if I should keep posting. You kill your credibility all by yourself, I’m not needed here.

What is the point of complaining about this now? After the initial outcry against ascended gear, they put it into the game and are rolling it out in even more slots. Every argument that could possibly have been made has already been made, at this point there’s zero chance that they’re gonna remove it from WvW.

Not to mention that as time goes on it’s been easier and easier to attain ascended gear & make money in WvW.
-ascended amulets or rings require 10 less laurels when purchased with badges
-IIRC monthlies didn’t originally give laurels
-achievement chests give laurels
-alternate method to attain back piece will be added
-WvW masteries make it faster & easier to cap objectives and get gold
-vastly easier to tag things in WvW to get loot
-allowing blueprints to be sold on AH for money, drastic increase in badge droprate
-champion bags
-WvW rankup chests & their improvement

Visiroth.5914:

What is the point of complaining about this now? After the initial outcry against ascended gear, they put it into the game and are rolling it out in even more slots. Every argument that could possibly have been made has already been made, at this point there’s zero chance that they’re gonna remove it from WvW.

Someone probably just decided to make an alt or change specs. Looked in their wallet and realize they don’t have all the proper currencies to get the ascended pieces they need. This obviously made the game imbalanced for them because everyone else has ascended in every slot on the only character they will ever play.

I have a much bigger problem with bloodlust, guard leech, and applied fortitude.

haviz.1340:

Galen Grey.4709:

Zergs can never be discouraged no matter what you do. the only way to get ridt of them is to do what all other mmos do, make PvE competitive with mob tagging and stuff or hide boses in instances to control the number of players fighting them. Either way its going to be bad.

Long before launch, anet designers claimed that bosses get new abilities with more people around that let them handle those players properly. Have you seen anything like that? If bosses could instagib not five but all players afking the fight zerging could be at least a bit discouraged.

Its really impossible to say, if there is a zerg fighting a boss its impossible to see the boss much less what its doing!

That being said afking people isnt the problem with zergs, the problem with zergs is that most events scale up to 10 players or 25 players if they’re a group event and 100s of players show up. Why? because at that disparity the event finishes really quickly and there is 0 risks. None of those 100 players would by afking. Some might be autoattacking and doing nothing else sure but thats not the same as afking. Scaling up has its limits. At some point the boss will star one shotting with his regular attack and at that point the fight might become unwinable.

TainoFuerte.8136:

Yes, please explain to me what Purge said and explained himself, since you obviously know better than he does. Actually, don’t. Because you are wrong. Because Tread switching for 20 hp is often the one thing that saves you or allows you to get that one kill.

You’re not listening and just simply refuse to listen.

Even 1 extra HP might in some cases save you sure. Granted. But the smallest the advantage the less likely it is to happen. The few time when it happens it will still not matter because WvW is not a deathmatch and thats a detail that you seem to refuse to acknowledge. That you survive or die in itself has negligible impact on WvW because WvW is not about kill count, its about holding and keeping objectives. You keep focusing on individual engagements and how to balance individual engagements but for the 1 milliont time that is not what WvW is about. In the grand scheme of things this balance doesnt matter at all because the imbalance itself will balance out. some on your team will have ascended gear others will not. The same is true for the other servers. In some engagements ascended gear will cause imbalance in other engagements it will actually help create balance. Removing it or not will make 0 difference.

Not only that but you keep using Dota as an example which once again its nothing like WvW. Dota works on balance which doesnt exist in WvW, they’re completely different. In Dota you cannot have uneven players on each side, in WvW you always have it essentially. In Dota its 1team vs 1 team in WvW its 1v1v1 which in itself creates a massive imbalance. In Dota you dont have things like Buffing your team to do 80% more damage and you cannot debuff your enemy to do 25% less damage as well as take an extra 25% damage thus your team mates performance doesnt have that huge impact it does in WvW.

And finally so are you saying now that you are advocating that MOBA games should remove all upgrades and remove any character advancement because in your opinion that would make for a better game?

Man srsly you’re arguments and examples are so stupid they make me feel like confronting with a colorblind kid that pretends to help someone cross a street looking at a traffic light.

MOBA games make you start on the same level as your opponent, so your argument is invalid as you start each fight on the same level and same gear as your opponent, it’s not like you start the game with “ascended swords” that already give you an edge before you hit anything.

And for the rest i’ll just quote the awesome reply of zaragoz on the 12th page

zaragoz

I say this as a player who has full ascended and is working on an alternate set of full ascended now. I think its absurd to stay competitive in a game mode I enjoy I am forced to do a stupid meaningless task on a daily basis. Just my 2 cents, but I feel like the only players who would be against this are the ones who need a crutch to stand on and enjoy killing players who are at a stat disadvantage to them.

There is no argument as to why ascended makes things better, it does not. The fact that wvw is already not balanced doesn’t make it an excuse to implement even more things that are imbalanced.

In fact, if you’d take away all the things that unbalance pvp in wvw that are only obtainable through grinding and/or that are exclusive you’d already have much better fights.

you could start taking away:
wvw rank stat buffs
ascended
bloodlust

and you’d already see much better fights around. Sure, you’ll still see uneven numbers, but at least small scale battles and occasional encounters won’t be destroyed by stat gap. Saying it’s alright to screw that up as everything else is already trash is not really smart thinking to me

And you can save yourself from saying that wvw is about holding objectives since the only thing that matters and that everyone does is agglomerating in karma trains flipping a map and then moving to another

Delta Blues.8507:

Man srsly you’re arguments and examples are so stupid they make me feel like confronting with a colorblind kid that pretends to help someone cross a street looking at a traffic light.

MOBA games make you start on the same level as your opponent, so your argument is invalid as you start each fight on the same level and same gear as your opponent, it’s not like you start the game with “ascended swords” that already give you an edge before you hit anything.

And for the rest i’ll just quote the awesome reply of zaragoz on the 12th page

zaragoz

I say this as a player who has full ascended and is working on an alternate set of full ascended now. I think its absurd to stay competitive in a game mode I enjoy I am forced to do a stupid meaningless task on a daily basis. Just my 2 cents, but I feel like the only players who would be against this are the ones who need a crutch to stand on and enjoy killing players who are at a stat disadvantage to them.

There is no argument as to why ascended makes things better, it does not. The fact that wvw is already not balanced doesn’t make it an excuse to implement even more things that are imbalanced.

In fact, if you’d take away all the things that unbalance pvp in wvw that are only obtainable through grinding and/or that are exclusive you’d already have much better fights.

you could start taking away:
wvw rank stat buffs
ascended
bloodlust

and you’d already see much better fights around. Sure, you’ll still see uneven numbers, but at least small scale battles and occasional encounters won’t be destroyed by stat gap. Saying it’s alright to screw that up as everything else is already trash is not really smart thinking to me

And you can save yourself from saying that wvw is about holding objectives since the only thing that matters and that everyone does is agglomerating in karma trains flipping a map and then moving to another

Until I see someone get destroyed by a stat gap, I’m going to assume it doesn’t happen.

This thread has demonstrated that this is a valid position to take.

Delta Blues.8507:

Man srsly you’re arguments and examples are so stupid ….

MOBA games make you start on the same level as your opponent, so your argument is invalid as you start each fight on the same level and same gear as your opponent, it’s not like you start the game with “ascended swords” that already give you an edge before you hit anything.

Never mind thats not even true… see runes in League of legends for example that give you statistic advantage as you level up. But even if it were what difference does it make really? When you come face to face with your opponent chances are you or him have items that give a statistical advantage to you or him stat wise. It’s unlikely you’ll all earn the same gold exactly and buy the same items exactly. As long as there is progression there will be a gap plain and simple. Like I’ve said a billion times now MOBAs and WvW are different games, with different mechanics which will never map 1 to 1. Lets be realistic here. Whats the issue with Ascended gear? That you can end up in a fight with some who has more ascended gear then you do which means they get a statistical advantage. That same exact situation can happen in a MOBA too. Just cause every avatar is wiped clean at the start of the match doesnt somehow wipe the fact that unless the game has been going for really long plenty of 1v1 fights happen when a player or the other have a statistical advantage.

Delta Blues.8507:

And for the rest i’ll just quote the awesome reply of zaragoz on the 12th page

zaragoz

I say this as a player who has full ascended and is working on an alternate set of full ascended now. I think its absurd to stay competitive in a game mode I enjoy I am forced to do a stupid meaningless task on a daily basis. Just my 2 cents, but I feel like the only players who would be against this are the ones who need a crutch to stand on and enjoy killing players who are at a stat disadvantage to them.

Once again I own 0, I repeat 0 ascended gear pieces so I dont see how my argument is to hide the fact that I enjoy killing players that are at a stat disadvantage then me. Not only that but I dont feel at a disadvantage at all, In fact I feel I do much better then I deserve if anything because I am not a hardcore PVP player by a long shot.

Delta Blues.8507:

There is no argument as to why ascended makes things better, it does not. The fact that wvw is already not balanced doesn’t make it an excuse to implement even more things that are imbalanced.

This is mostly a perception issue. When you have something that’s unbalanced and you add something that taken apart from everything else is unbalanced you’re not increasing or decreasing balance. Balance is a state. You’re either balanced or not. There is no more balance or less balance like there is no more true or more false. In some cases it makes fight imbalanced in other cases it actually makes them more balanced. So in essence it makes the situation worst and better at the same time depending on the circumstances. It may be unfair for a player who doesnt have any when faced with a player who does however wouldnt it be more fair if a player has it and is faced with 2 players who dont have it since it makes them closer statistically? There will be permutations of these situations in a WvW battle and once again WvW is not about individual battles so this is even less of an issue because there is a holistic balance at a higher level in that these balance issue apply to everyone equally.

Delta Blues.8507:

In fact, if you’d take away all the things that unbalance pvp in wvw that are only obtainable through grinding and/or that are exclusive you’d already have much better fights.

Snip..

how do you know small scale battles are destroyed by stat gaps? I cannot say either way but I find that hard to believe. At the very worst possible scenario ascended gear will provide a 10% statistical increase. That means that the gap provided by ascended is 10:1 smaller to that provided by an extra player.

IE statistically speaking

Scenario 1
Team A made of 10 players all wearing Ascended Vs Team B made of 10 players wearing Exotic

is statistically the same

Scenario 2
as Team A made of 10 people in Exotic vs Team B made of 9 people all wearing in Exotic.

Why are people so sure Scenario 1 is a given for team A but Scenario 2 can go either way. Never mind that in real life the ratio of Ascended Gear for the two sides will be much smaller then 10:1 and the gap of scenario 2 will be way bigger. Yet ascended gear keep being viewed as the problem

The point here is that there are players who won’t ever get ascended because for a pvp dedicated player that means way too much grind.

But I can’t keep arguing with someone that keeps saying that 10% stat difference don’t matter. hf

Yes I know, I am one of them as I said before.

you’ve argued that uneven players on the opposite team arent a big deal and each one is 10 times worst then 10% stat difference (which is the theoretical maximum btw in truth it will be less most of the time). Yet looking on YouTube you can see small parties beating zergs much larger then they are quite a few times. How can you explain that if 10% difference is critical?

Delta Blues.8507:

The point here is that there are players who won’t ever get ascended because for a pvp dedicated player that means way too much grind.

But I can’t keep arguing with someone that keeps saying that 10% stat difference don’t matter. hf

the stat difference matters to an individual player. If i have higher stats on my char than i did last week, i will notice a difference.

but the individual player doesn’t matter in WvW. Maybe if 50% of a server had ascended you could say the stat difference was significant. But if 50% of my server has ascended, chances are 50% of the other two servers also have ascended, so it doesn’t matter.

exactly what Scrambles said.

Not just that but wvw is 500v500v500
so worst case scenario is your server has 0 ascended while all other servers have all players with ascended gear.

going with 10% stat difference per player 1000 players would be boosted to 1100 players stat wise. that means that worst case your server will face a disadvantage of 20% because of ascended gear. Again thats worst case scenario where as your server has no player with a single ascended gear piece while all the other servers have a full set for each and every player.

That would be the same as involving yourself in a fight of 5vs6 which like happens all the time anyway.
Again we’re speaking worst case scenario here.

Being an avid WvWer with a PvP heart you run with nothing but BiS no matter how miniscule the difference is. 5-10% more damage is not negligible. Sure, the nature of WvW tends to be unbalanced but with 5-10% more damage you can flip a camp, or tower 5-10% faster. It can mean the difference between capping SM with the enemy zerg outside the wall or having them crashing your party in the lord room cause you were 5-10% less powerful. A stat advantage is an advantage no matter how many other imbalances there are and anyone convinced of the opposite needs to learn some basic math.

Does that justify it being removed? No but Anet should be implementing other ways of getting that gear.

The bad thing with ascended is that they’re too difficult to get. You just cannot like just play wvw and get ascended gear. Or do guild missions or random dungeons and whatever. Ascended is not something you can get just by playing. Either it’s cash shop for you or endless grinding of SPECIFIC content you do not like at all.

I have forced myself to do some fractals and whatanot but no more I cannot take it. I rather have yellow useless stat backpiece than go grind.

And funny thing is that if you want to do some “competitive” open world pvp, ascended stats matter. A lot.

Ascended gear and the gated content to get it was BS, it added something to the game they said they would not add all during development, GEAR CREEP, The players they have in their little testing group that were selected from the closed beta told them it was not a good addition. They didn’t want to hear it and added it anyway.

They they coated it over a little by allowing you to craft it, funny but crafting from 400- cap now will cost you well over 500 gold, unless you want to spend months collecting the items.

Which as a WvW player i do not wish to do no have any interest in gated content which was another thing they said they would not introduce into the game.

But lets all be realistic here, they need us to grind stuff to spend gems whether you trade gold for gems and then buy something or you pay RL moneys for gems.

Thats the bottom line and if it adds a serious amount of in game time for each individual to get whats needed for the gear grind then thats what they are going to add, sad but very true.

Arreyanne.2683:

Ascended gear and the gated content to get it was BS, it added something to the game they said they would not add all during development, GEAR CREEP, The players they have in their little testing group that were selected from the closed beta told them it was not a good addition. They didn’t want to hear it and added it anyway.

They they coated it over a little by allowing you to craft it, funny but crafting from 400- cap now will cost you well over 500 gold, unless you want to spend months collecting the items.

Which as a WvW player i do not wish to do no have any interest in gated content which was another thing they said they would not introduce into the game.

But lets all be realistic here, they need us to grind stuff to spend gems whether you trade gold for gems and then buy something or you pay RL moneys for gems.

Thats the bottom line and if it adds a serious amount of in game time for each individual to get whats needed for the gear grind then thats what they are going to add, sad but very true.

FYI – You can get Ascended gear for free in WvW chests. But remember that using Ascended gear is completely optional, since the minor attribute bonuses over Exotic doesn’t amount to much.

A-net are just plain liers. They promised there would be no gear maximizing through grinding and they do invent generation after generation of sota gear. Great. I agree totally with the op and I would like to see the ascended gear being thrown out of wvw, better out of the whole game.

I really learned to despise A-net for the implementing of the grinding to get better and better gear. The really messed this up. After watching this for one year, this will be the reason I quit game and account.

ascended gear is more fun in pve – so I wouldn’t throw them out of the game.

But denying a pvp’r the best stats available, is no real competitive pvp. sPvp has that and is correct, but those maps lack the strategy and excitement found in wvw, and wvw apparently was supposed to simply be a mix of pve and pvp for a 3rd choice….I get that but The players ultimately want it to be competitive pvp. – The minute they put a score on server matches – ascended items were blasphemy. No score, it wouldn’t have mattered.