Guild Wars 2

The only “ascended gears” that make significant difference are trinkets. Ascended trinkets are pretty easy to obtain and rather cheap except back piece which might be a little expensive, just a little. I have at least 30 ascended trinkets so far (30 trinkets with stats that I want for my 3 lv80s). That still doesn’t count the leftover trinkets stacking in my banks which I don’t plan to use any time soon.

Ascended Weapons don’t make any significant stat difference. Even crit dmg on berserk is the same as that of exotics. Ascended armors are pretty much gonna follow the same pattern.

It’s only the trinkets. And trinkets are very easy to get.

Stop whining.

Delta Blues.8507:

So i’m so sorry if i ruined that for you in trying to imagine how wvw could actually be about big fights and fair battles and what good pvp could bring to it.
Just keep running on those doors, i’m done in trying to see how all this could be improved. Since your “wvw crowd” doesn’t care about imbalance, about pvp, about anything that is not brainless objective flipping

Thing is there is different types of PvP. In some balance is critical 1v1s, sPvP, Dota etc.. Then you have PvP like WvW where its not about singular engagements its about the overall strategy.

Big fights can never be fair. You might have the most perfect balance and best skill possible if 25 people ganged on you you’re going to die and all that balance will mean nothing. We have to take WvW for what it is. Those 25 people killing you is not a win for them. Thats not what WvW is about, the “important” balance doesnt have to fall down on individual players, it has to fall down on individual servers. Its a chaotic soup sure but that chaotic soup applies the same way to every side.

Look at EvE online as an Example. PvP is a major thing there yet few people can own powerful ships like Carrier and Titans. For a new player its literally years, think 3 – 5 years before they can even fly them never mind afford them etc.. Does it mean any player below 3 years is useless? quite the opposite because EvE PvP is all about the strategy. Even a relatively new player who cant afford anything but a cheap frigate can be useful in a group fight and no one is going to consider them a dead weight just because they have a damage output thats orders of magnitude smaller then the big boys. There is no balance in the sense you’re talking about in EvE online but the PvP there is some of the best ever.

Another Example, A pawn doesnt have the same “power” as a queen that doesnt mean the game needs to be changed so that every item on the board is a queen or a pawn. Chess isnt about individual engagements and as such the “balance” needs to be at a higher level. So to exaggerate a bit you might not like grind and decide to be the pawn thats not a problem someone else on your team will be the queen and the same will be true for the other 2 servers. You can be sure not everyone has a full exotic set. I have alts and play WvW with no Exotic set, for a long time my main didnt have a full exotic set either and guess what I still did great, never felt like I had to get better gear cause i wasnt competitive without it.

In short if you’re a pvper used to small stage combat I can understand that you feel balance is extremely important because it is, you’d be absolutely right. This is however something else. And no it doesnt mean that its ruined by its lack of balance or it could be much better.

Thats not to say there is no room for imporvement, I would personally do one change about all of this and that is make ascended weapons acquirable like trinkets, laurels and badges thats all.

DavyMcB.1603:

Ascended Weapons don’t make any significant stat difference. Even crit dmg on berserk is the same as that of exotics. Ascended armors are pretty much gonna follow the same pattern.

It’s only the trinkets. And trinkets are very easy to get.

Stop whining.

Err. This is completely false.

The ascended weapon has a higher base damage, therefore it is the most influencial piece in regards to damage output.

Mackdose.6504:

DavyMcB.1603:

Ascended Weapons don’t make any significant stat difference. Even crit dmg on berserk is the same as that of exotics. Ascended armors are pretty much gonna follow the same pattern.

It’s only the trinkets. And trinkets are very easy to get.

Stop whining.

Err. This is completely false.

The ascended weapon has a higher base damage, therefore it is the most influencial piece in regards to damage output.

yeah… 50 more…. holy jesus now I got 1 shot!!!!!!!111111!!!11

berserk trinket +crit dmg. It is the most influential price in dmg output.

DavyMcB.1603:

Mackdose.6504:

DavyMcB.1603:

Ascended Weapons don’t make any significant stat difference. Even crit dmg on berserk is the same as that of exotics. Ascended armors are pretty much gonna follow the same pattern.

It’s only the trinkets. And trinkets are very easy to get.

Stop whining.

Err. This is completely false.

The ascended weapon has a higher base damage, therefore it is the most influencial piece in regards to damage output.

yeah… 50 more…. holy jesus now I got 1 shot!!!!!!!111111!!!11

berserk trinket +crit dmg. It is the most influential price in dmg output.

that 50 more damage is 5% more total damage, like a force sigil. It’s still the most influential piece in dmg output.

Excalibur.9748:

DavyMcB.1603:

Mackdose.6504:

DavyMcB.1603:

Ascended Weapons don’t make any significant stat difference. Even crit dmg on berserk is the same as that of exotics. Ascended armors are pretty much gonna follow the same pattern.

It’s only the trinkets. And trinkets are very easy to get.

Stop whining.

Err. This is completely false.

The ascended weapon has a higher base damage, therefore it is the most influencial piece in regards to damage output.

yeah… 50 more…. holy jesus now I got 1 shot!!!!!!!111111!!!11

berserk trinket +crit dmg. It is the most influential price in dmg output.

that 50 more damage is 5% more total damage, like a force sigil. It’s still the most influential piece in dmg output.

That 50 more is a +50 WEAPON BASE dmg. sigil of force is TOTAL BASE DMG*(1.05)

TainoFuerte.8136:

Because it’s relatively easy to correct?

Nothing that you’ve stated changes the fact that you love to distract from the topic at hand – which is what a red herring is. We’re talking about one element about WvW, and you try and deflect the arguments by going “GUYS LOOK HERE THIS OTHER STUFF IS IMBA AND IMPORTANT AND STUFF” and that doesn’t change any of our arguments. It is dishonest and little more than a diversion.

WELL THE UNIVERSE IS CONNECTED EVERYTHING CHANGES EVERYTHING AND GEAR IS LIKE A DROP IN THE OCEAN

Ok.

Again you’re not listening I am not deviating the subject and I stating its all the same subject.

I will ask you again to tell me how Ascended gear affects WvW negatively.
Like I told you before a change needs to be justified and stating how a change is important because it would make it in line with a separate game with totally separate rules is no justification for anything.

TainoFuerte.8136:

You. Are. Wrong. 100% wrong. You could not be more wrong than you are right now.

You are moving the goalpost because first you try and tell me that small stats don’t matter in DOTA, which is wrong,

Can you please quote where I told you that small stats arent important in Dota cause pretty sure I said the exact opposite. All I said was DOTA has nothing in common with WvW, they are two different games with two different rule sets. Whats true for Dota isnt true for WvW.

TainoFuerte.8136:

regardless of opponents and, in fact, it’s wrong in SC2, in any fighting game ever, and I have good and well known players saying you are wrong in my favor, and then you try and tell me that DOTA isn’t WvW so this example that you tried to redirect by telling me that it was wrong isn’t valid for no reason.

Really ? in any fighting game you say? so you’re saying that in EvE online A frigate has the same firepower as a Titan?

In Planet side 2 a gause rifle does the same damage as Titan-150 High explose round?

In litterally every MMO out there PvP is balanced the same way as sPvP in Gw2 or PvP in Gw1?

TainoFuerte.8136:

Well, I guess if you say it, it’s true.

Oh, wait, no it isn’t.

You guys read it right here, making things more balanced does not mean they are more balanced because I guess there are other unbalanced stuffs in still?

Doesn’t even know what apologism is or understand math and somehow I’m supposed to believe these balance philosophies.

Right because if we remove Ascended gear that someone with food buffs is not going to be more powerful over someone without food buffs.
Without ascended gear coming face to face with an arrow cart will not be a problem.
Without ascended gear I dont have to worry if I am roaming alone and I come face to face with a 100 player strong zerg because now that the game is more balanced I can kill them all.

you hate the idea of ascended gear, I get it, believe it or not so do I. But if what you’re trying is like you’re stating fixing balance issues removing ascended gear is not going to change one thing. Fights of any size will still be unbalanced. And before stating that ohh but at least it will be better… you’d be wrong because some of the unbalance cancels or reduces other unbalance.

So you’re saying that removing ascended gear will bring more balance to the game. Wrong because there is no such thing as more balance there is only balance and no balance. There is no quantifiable more balance.

For example

If I am a solo player with ascended gear and I come across 2 enemy players in exotics what would be closer to a perfect balance? Ascended gear in the game or out of the game? ohh look removing ascended gear in this scenario made the game more unbalanced. How about coming 1v1 against a player that has food buffs and unfortunately i ran out. there are countless other scenarios I am sure you can think off where removing something thats creating unbalance will cause a greater disadvantage rather then a smaller one.

If WvW was perfectly balanced except for ascended gear then yeah you’d be right removing ascended gear will bring balance. But in a state machine where lots of things are unbalanced removing one single element will not make a difference. In some cases you’ll acheive better balance, in other cases you’ll achieve worst balance ergo unless you fix all of it you’ll just stay in the same point you were before.

Delta Blues.8507:

Galen Grey.4709:

I bet it takes longer to level a character from 1 to 80 then to craft an ascended weapon. Never mind ascended trinkets which will only require about 10 hours of your time a piece. So I dont think its fair to dismiss it with a notion such as Proper PvP doesnt start until you get at max level. Would you be happy if someone told you proper pvp doesnt start until you full gear up in BiS? It starts when you start taking part in it. Consumble buffs are easy to get true but how many do actually take them? I bet not many. Player number, sieges, walls etc… are there for both sides true but so is ascended gear. I mean you may find it grindy and decide to skip it. Some on your side will get it and like wise on the other servers some will go for it others will not. Isnt that the same thing as say player numbers?

Again, you clearly don’t seem to have a clue about what high level pvp is so i’m not going to bother answering anymore.

I’ll agree with you again that wvw is then not about pvp but about giving pvers something else to do.
But don’t come here and say it’s a good pvp feature because that’s way out of line, and sorry for trying to imagine it better, since every criticism to any aspect is useless as the mentality is “WvW is unfair anyway, so don’t bother fix anything”.

Not quite sure how far that will take it though tbh.

Please make sure to send an email to CCP and tell them they’re doing it all wrong. Because your type of PvP seems to be the only type of PvP and everyone who has a different idea clearly doesnt know what they’re talking about.

Is that what you’re saying?

Why should I continue to play a game that makes zergling roleplay the most rewarding thing to do?

Galen Grey.4709:

Again you’re not listening I am not deviating the subject and I stating its all the same subject.

No, it isn’t. We’re talking about gear. Why are you talking about arrow carts and server populations? Is their connection mystical? Divine? Did a wizard tell you it was so? If I make arrow carts deal 20 less damage, will that ruin the space-time continuum by making whites more powerful than Legendaries?

I will ask you again to tell me how Ascended gear affects WvW negatively.

I will ask you to re-read the thread.

Can you please quote where I told you that small stats arent important in Dota cause pretty sure I said the exact opposite. All I said was DOTA has nothing in common with WvW, they are two different games with two different rule sets. Whats true for Dota isnt true for WvW.

Sure.

Galen Grey.4709:

Do you think that iron branch would make any difference if you get faced with a 2vs1 fight, never mind things like x vs y where x and y can be anywhere between 1 – 1000 ?

Here you are doubting me and Purge when we say that small stats make a difference. The implication being that, somehow, an unbalanced fight removes numerical values from the game and they become irrelevant. Stop moving the goalpost. You are wrong.

Really ? in any fighting game you say? so you’re saying that in EvE online A frigate has the same firepower as a Titan?

In Planet side 2 a gause rifle does the same damage as Titan-150 High explose round?

In litterally every MMO out there PvP is balanced the same way as sPvP in Gw2 or PvP in Gw1?

Are you… trying to make my point for me? I’m telling you that small stat differences matter – and you cite games with different factions/classes that clearly have different capabilities? I mean, I even remember when New Conglomerate weapons were considered garbage against all the other faction weapons. I also didn’t know EvE was a fighter.

So, at the end of these irrelevant questions you’ve posed me, I’m still right on how small stats save you in DOTA. Thanks for trying to distract me with all those crazy questions, though.

Right because if we remove Ascended gear that someone with food buffs is not going to be more powerful over someone without food buffs.
Without ascended gear coming face to face with an arrow cart will not be a problem.
Without ascended gear I dont have to worry if I am roaming alone and I come face to face with a 100 player strong zerg because now that the game is more balanced I can kill them all.

you hate the idea of ascended gear, I get it, believe it or not so do I. But if what you’re trying is like you’re stating fixing balance issues removing ascended gear is not going to change one thing. Fights of any size will still be unbalanced. And before stating that ohh but at least it will be better… you’d be wrong because some of the unbalance cancels or reduces other unbalance.

So you’re saying that removing ascended gear will bring more balance to the game. Wrong because there is no such thing as more balance there is only balance and no balance. There is no quantifiable more balance.

You continue to respond with red herrings and irrelevant dribble on how you can bring balance to the Force. We are talking about gear, and what it implies, and what the OP thinks can help correct it.

This is not denying the existence of the multitude of factors that unbalance WvW. The existence of these phenomena does not diminish the existence of the potential gear disparity, which is what the thread is concerned about.

If you wish to prattle on about how food buffs and zergs are imba, that’s ok, but it has nothing to do with gear. It does not remove the existence of gear and is not a reason against minimizing the gear gap. That’s all cool and all, and is stuff people could talk about to make WvW a better place, but it has no bearing on the thread.

And if it doesn’t make a difference, then you have no argument against it, right, homes? It makes no difference, so removing that stat disparity has no negative.

So, whazup, guy who doesn’t care about removing Ascended gear from WvW and is in fact against As gear.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Why should I continue to play a game that makes zergling roleplay the most rewarding thing to do?

that’s a good question. looks like someone’s got some soul-searching to do.

que soft melodies and scenes of Dark Catalyst staring longingly towards the ocean

Scrambles.2604:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Why should I continue to play a game that makes zergling roleplay the most rewarding thing to do?

that’s a good question. looks like someone’s got some soul-searching to do.

que soft melodies and scenes of Dark Catalyst staring longingly towards the ocean

It’s a legit question and I have asked it myself numerous times (leading to me quitting for weeks on end).

I’m sure some day it will get through to players who now are defending the zerging. They’ll see how useless zerging really is and why it is inherently wrong to reward something that easy and skill-less.

DavyMcB.1603:

Excalibur.9748:

DavyMcB.1603:

Mackdose.6504:

DavyMcB.1603:

Ascended Weapons don’t make any significant stat difference. Even crit dmg on berserk is the same as that of exotics. Ascended armors are pretty much gonna follow the same pattern.

It’s only the trinkets. And trinkets are very easy to get.

Stop whining.

Err. This is completely false.

The ascended weapon has a higher base damage, therefore it is the most influencial piece in regards to damage output.

yeah… 50 more…. holy jesus now I got 1 shot!!!!!!!111111!!!11

berserk trinket +crit dmg. It is the most influential price in dmg output.

that 50 more damage is 5% more total damage, like a force sigil. It’s still the most influential piece in dmg output.

That 50 more is a +50 WEAPON BASE dmg. sigil of force is TOTAL BASE DMG*(1.05)

it’s still close enough to 5% more total damage if you plug it into formulas and calculate.

TainoFuerte.8136:

snip

Thing is, the gear is there now. That would make removing it thing thing to justify. You haven’t provided any reasoning that removing the gear would be beneficial to WvW.

If you’re admitting it doesn’t make a difference to WvW outcomes (which it doesn’t), why would we remove the gear?

Beyond the reasoning others have provided across the thread, you mean.

TainoFuerte.8136:

Beyond the reasoning others have provided across the thread, you mean.

You should probably answer the question directed at you rather than deflect:

What benefit would removing the gear have for WvW?

I appreciate the troll attempt to get me to waste my time citing the entirety of the discussions held throughout the 12 page thread, including exchanges between the both of us, but you presumably have eyes and can read, so go do it.

TainoFuerte.8136:

I appreciate the troll attempt to get me to waste my time citing the entirety of the discussions held throughout the 12 page thread, including exchanges between the both of us, but you presumably have eyes and can read, so go do it.

So there is no benefit to removing it, because the gear makes no difference. Got it.

0/10

You need better bait.

I kind of like ascended; however i dont like that there is a large difference that will occur over the trinkets, and now weapons, and future armor.

Small gear differences I am ok with and i think they have surpassed the ratio with everything combined. This is supposed to be a non-grind game. Grinding should result in minor minor advances (to keep it interesting to long term players) but new players should be competively geared with minimal investment for wvwvw.

All I’m feeling from OP are a lot of QQs and a lot of “I should have done Fractals and my dailies more so I can get ascended gear.” Typical “It’s not fair, he’s out DPSing me bull crap.” This should just push you to go get ascended gear instead of whining about it. Honestly, this is an MMO, not some FPS game where everyone is “equal.”

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Why should I continue to play a game that makes zergling roleplay the most rewarding thing to do?

That’s an easy one to answer. It’s how anet wants you to play the game.

Summary: Just remove it.

First of all in the beginning of the game there are no ascended. Also exotic and legendary stats were same. Ascended gear not necessary in WvW. It is only useful in Fractal becasue of agony resistance upgrade. Also they came with Fractal. If people want to use ascended gear in any area of pve this is fine for me. But I said this lots of times in different topics. Lots of player plays WvW with alterns.

I have 5 level 80 characters with total 10 armor sets, 11 trinkets and lots of weapons. I like use different class in WvW and I don’t have main class. That ascended thing limited my fun understanding of this game. I should choose my one character and build for ascended set. When ascended armors come there will be a full exotic versus full ascended comparison. I mentioned before when they announced ascended armor and weapon my guild quit for react to Anet becasue of this decision. Some of us return but we are not happy. Before ascended this game was more easy and funny without grind.

Also not all people join huge zergs and blobs in WvW. I rarely join zergs. I prefer small party roaming and solo duels. Obsidian Sanctum Jumping Puzzle is an unoffical duel arena. I have lots friends in other servers for duel at that area. I do not want to WvW bloodlust buffs, ascended pieces in that fights. I don’t want to win that duels with buffs and ascended pieces. So as I said before I don’t want to ascended, WvW bloodlust, orb etc. at WvW. If you decided to design ascended like legendary (convertible to all stats) and account bound like achievement skins and available for all characters then I will become an ascended supporter and still do not want to increased stats.

My old post when Anet announced ascended weapons and armors: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Ascended-Gear-to-Kill-Builds-and-Alts/page/7#post2763770

zen.6091:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Why should I continue to play a game that makes zergling roleplay the most rewarding thing to do?

That’s an easy one to answer. It’s how anet wants you to play the game.

What if you don’t want to play the way anet wants you to? :P

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Why should I continue to play a game that makes zergling roleplay the most rewarding thing to do?

why should you play the game just for the rewards?

TainoFuerte.8136:

No, it isn’t. We’re talking about gear. Why are you talking about arrow carts and server populations? Is their connection mystical? Divine? Did a wizard tell you it was so? If I make arrow carts deal 20 less damage, will that ruin the space-time continuum by making whites more powerful than Legendaries?

I will ask you to re-read the thread.

Sure.

Here you are doubting me and Purge when we say that small stats make a difference. The implication being that, somehow, an unbalanced fight removes numerical values from the game and they become irrelevant. Stop moving the goalpost. You are wrong.

Are you… trying to make my point for me? I’m telling you that small stat differences matter – and you cite games with different factions/classes that clearly have different capabilities? I mean, I even remember when New Conglomerate weapons were considered garbage against all the other faction weapons. I also didn’t know EvE was a fighter.

So, at the end of these irrelevant questions you’ve posed me, I’m still right on how small stats save you in DOTA. Thanks for trying to distract me with all those crazy questions, though.

You continue to respond with red herrings and irrelevant dribble on how you can bring balance to the Force. We are talking about gear, and what it implies, and what the OP thinks can help correct it.

This is not denying the existence of the multitude of factors that unbalance WvW. The existence of these phenomena does not diminish the existence of the potential gear disparity, which is what the thread is concerned about.

If you wish to prattle on about how food buffs and zergs are imba, that’s ok, but it has nothing to do with gear. It does not remove the existence of gear and is not a reason against minimizing the gear gap. That’s all cool and all, and is stuff people could talk about to make WvW a better place, but it has no bearing on the thread.

And if it doesn’t make a difference, then you have no argument against it, right, homes? It makes no difference, so removing that stat disparity has no negative.

So, whazup, guy who doesn’t care about removing Ascended gear from WvW and is in fact against As gear.

Thats not what it means. The iron branch helped a little bit getting one of those two killed but it is not what did it the most. If everything else was equal (ie same character at same level with same upgrade and same skill players just you got an iron branch extra you wouldnt manage to kill one of your 2 attackers) The iron branch is important though because it helps a bit bridge the gap. What I would really love to know though is why you’re fighting for a small statistical advantage in DOTA and telling my how crucial it is for the balance of the game while saying exactly the opposite for Gw2. Because I hope you realise Ascended gear is your iron branch in a way right?

As for everything else… please stop replying to my irrelevant questions, I just want you to reply to one important question, the most crucial question of them all. How will removing Ascended gear make balance better in WvW. You said its been said before, I just dont see it. all I’ve been reading is, its more powerful and hard to get. None of that proves removing it will improve balance one bit. But if you think its been said, prove me wrong and Quote it. Thats all you got to do.

One more thing The big picture is crucial even though you keep denying it. Playing ostrich and ignoring the other factors will not improve anything. Its like saying I want to help solve world famine so I am going to eat less because on paper that means there will be more food for everyone else. On paper yes thats helpful but in reality? if you dont buy food its not going to those in need, its going to sit on your groccers shelf until it rots away so looking at the big picture its not going to help.

Same thing here only less life and death like. Removing ascended gear will not help bring balance to the game it will just shift the imbalance around. in some situations balance will be better in other cases it will be worst. In the grand scheme of things though you’d be left with the same imbalance just now its in different places then before.

Sirendor.1394:

Scrambles.2604:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Why should I continue to play a game that makes zergling roleplay the most rewarding thing to do?

that’s a good question. looks like someone’s got some soul-searching to do.

que soft melodies and scenes of Dark Catalyst staring longingly towards the ocean

It’s a legit question and I have asked it myself numerous times (leading to me quitting for weeks on end).

I’m sure some day it will get through to players who now are defending the zerging. They’ll see how useless zerging really is and why it is inherently wrong to reward something that easy and skill-less.

Who’s defending the zergs exactly?

And how does removing / keeping ascended gear actually encourage / discourage zergs?

TainoFuerte.8136:

I appreciate the troll attempt to get me to waste my time citing the entirety of the discussions held throughout the 12 page thread, including exchanges between the both of us, but you presumably have eyes and can read, so go do it.

I’ve asked you at least 5 times. Mackdose has asked you at least twice. You have no trouble writing huge paragraphs how important it is to have statistical advantages in DOTA as prove of how it is important not to have statistical advantages in WvW (not sure how one proves the other especially in a game that isnt even remotely similar) But you dont want to wast you time writing a single sentence about the most crucial aspect of the discussion at hand.

Yes I am sure its that you dont waste time rather then not having a good reason for it.

With all due respect I have a feeling its not about balance at all for you. Its just that you want to be as powerful as it can be without having to make an effort. Well sorry but WvW is not a battle about your engagements with the enemy. That alone is not a good enough reason to change anything.

Kilger.5490:

I kind of like ascended; however i dont like that there is a large difference that will occur over the trinkets, and now weapons, and future armor.

Small gear differences I am ok with and i think they have surpassed the ratio with everything combined. This is supposed to be a non-grind game. Grinding should result in minor minor advances (to keep it interesting to long term players) but new players should be competively geared with minimal investment for wvwvw.

what would you quantify a small difference to be. Because as it stands difference is between 5% – 10% depending on your build. Personally as a player who wears exotic armor I find myself competitively geared enough. I enjoy WvW and never ones did I feel I Cant play it until I switch to ascended which I dont have a single piece. To be honest I also enjoy playing in some of my alts that are mostly geared in Rares too So I would say not even exotics are a must.

I wonder how people would feel about WvW if there, at the start of GW2, was the option for “WvW only” characters who had a very limited weapon/armor appearance but with stat-interchangable, “always BiS gear”? It might be a bit too far in the game’s lifespan to do it now, but it’d be nice for those new to the game and WvW.

Galen Grey.4709:

Sirendor.1394:

Scrambles.2604:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Why should I continue to play a game that makes zergling roleplay the most rewarding thing to do?

that’s a good question. looks like someone’s got some soul-searching to do.

que soft melodies and scenes of Dark Catalyst staring longingly towards the ocean

It’s a legit question and I have asked it myself numerous times (leading to me quitting for weeks on end).

I’m sure some day it will get through to players who now are defending the zerging. They’ll see how useless zerging really is and why it is inherently wrong to reward something that easy and skill-less.

Who’s defending the zergs exactly?

And how does removing / keeping ascended gear actually encourage / discourage zergs?

Read up. Ascended are given to people who zerg (because they reap the most materials and gold).

Smith.1826:

I wonder how people would feel about WvW if there, at the start of GW2, was the option for “WvW only” characters who had a very limited weapon/armor appearance but with stat-interchangable, “always BiS gear”? It might be a bit too far in the game’s lifespan to do it now, but it’d be nice for those new to the game and WvW.

Great suggestion. Basically like GW1 system of PvP-only characters. I’d like it.

Sirendor.1394:

Galen Grey.4709:

Sirendor.1394:

Scrambles.2604:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

Why should I continue to play a game that makes zergling roleplay the most rewarding thing to do?

that’s a good question. looks like someone’s got some soul-searching to do.

que soft melodies and scenes of Dark Catalyst staring longingly towards the ocean

It’s a legit question and I have asked it myself numerous times (leading to me quitting for weeks on end).

I’m sure some day it will get through to players who now are defending the zerging. They’ll see how useless zerging really is and why it is inherently wrong to reward something that easy and skill-less.

Who’s defending the zergs exactly?

And how does removing / keeping ascended gear actually encourage / discourage zergs?

Read up. Ascended are given to people who zerg (because they reap the most materials and gold).

gold is really the worst way to get ascended gear. I’ve used this example before but it still applies. 144 ancient logs cost currently 9g. I can gather the 144 ancient logs myself with 4 level 80 characters in 30 mins game time. How much do you need to zerg to earn 9g?

A for materials thats a bit debatable. its true for temple events, world bosses etc.. They will be full of people and thus they are a zerg sure but you’re not really zerging in the sense that you jump in there do the event and you’re gone. Its not like in say the champion trains when you’re actively zerging. I dont think ascended gear is really encouraging zergs, its encouraging certain game aspects like temples and world bosses.

Sirendor.1394:

Smith.1826:

I wonder how people would feel about WvW if there, at the start of GW2, was the option for “WvW only” characters who had a very limited weapon/armor appearance but with stat-interchangable, “always BiS gear”? It might be a bit too far in the game’s lifespan to do it now, but it’d be nice for those new to the game and WvW.

Great suggestion. Basically like GW1 system of PvP-only characters. I’d like it.

I like it too. They could make some money of it too by making WvW character slots. If enough people would be interested maybe they’d feel it makes sense to implement

I totally agree, it kinda hurts that they put it in game and they should remove it from WvW. It sucks to know that other people have an artificial advantage over me because I can’t play as much as they do.

One way they could do this (without infuriating a bunch of PvErs) would be to reduce the stats by 15% on ascended pieces (or whatever the exact number may be) to bring it in line with the exotic equivalent. That way its the same stats priorities and skin, but you don’t have people with 15% more damage than others because they have put in hundreds of hours.

Galen Grey.4709:

Please make sure to send an email to CCP and tell them they’re doing it all wrong. Because your type of PvP seems to be the only type of PvP and everyone who has a different idea clearly doesnt know what they’re talking about.

Is that what you’re saying?

Yes. Everyone who think that having lower stats than someone else is fine in any kind of pvp is just plain wrong. having stats disatvantage isn’t excusable in any way. You can avoid unfair fights. You can avoid zergs. You can’t avoid being kitten if you don’t have all the time needed to brainless grind your gear. And, since ascended gear doesn’t bring a single thing to the game except something to do for people that need something to chase I keep not seeing what good they’d bring to WvW.

They only bring further unbalance. And that’s really not what wvw needs right now.

Let’s change the rules of this debate game for just a second.

Give me one good thing that ascended gear brings to PvP.
ONE.

Delta Blues.8507:

Galen Grey.4709:

Please make sure to send an email to CCP and tell them they’re doing it all wrong. Because your type of PvP seems to be the only type of PvP and everyone who has a different idea clearly doesnt know what they’re talking about.

Is that what you’re saying?

Yes. Everyone who think that having lower stats than someone else is fine in any kind of pvp is just plain wrong. having stats disatvantage isn’t excusable in any way. You can avoid unfair fights. You can avoid zergs. You can’t avoid being kitten if you don’t have all the time needed to brainless grind your gear. And, since ascended gear doesn’t bring a single thing to the game except something to do for people that need something to chase I keep not seeing what good they’d bring to WvW.

They only bring further unbalance. And that’s really not what wvw needs right now.

Let’s change the rules of this debate game for just a second.

Give me one good thing that ascended gear brings to PvP.
ONE.

Seriously but nearly every single pvp game I am aware of have that situation. MOBAs you got upgrades. Nearly every single MMO out there you need to gear up. MMOFPS / MMORTSes you can upgrade weapons / units. Card games you can buy booster packs that give you more strategic advantage by giving you more horizontal progression. Does everyone other there do it wrong?

Also you can avoid unfair fights, you can avoid zergs but you cannot avoid fighting people with ascended gear? Why? Do you perhaps mean you can recognize a situation where you’re outnumbered but you cannot recognize an opponent in ascended gear cause they might transmute it? cause you’d be wrong in that you cannot really know if a fight is unbalanced or not without taking part. Even if they got twice the number then your group does skill might still win you the fight. I am sure we all had that happen to us in one fight or another. You’re not going to know the balance of how a battle is going before you’re at least halve way though it at which point its impossible to disengage.

I’ll give you more then one good thing it bring to WvW.
Goal: Ascended gear is one upgrade you can strive for as such it gives people stuff to do.
Balance: Yes ironically ascended gear can help bridge the gap when you’re outnumbered or less skilled in a fight
Variety: which is the most important part and number one reason which I am going to talk in detail now.

The most crucial part of PvP is that it doesnt simply boil down to player skill but also has a large variety of variables in play. You may think this is stupid but its actually crucial. Imagine a game when stats are equal and it all boils down to player skill. So we’re saying remove skills, stats and gear. There is just the player who say has 10 health and a sword that does 2 damage every swing which you can swing every second.
How do you think PvP will play out in such a scenario. I can tell you once people master the game enough which will not take long it will always end up in a draw. What is skill after all? its mastering timing, strategy and counters. What creates those in the first place? the variables. If you dont have those little imbalances PvP wouldnt be any better then a game of tic-tac-toe something that will always end up in a tie.

Galen Grey.4709:

I’ll give you more then one good thing it bring to WvW.
Goal: Ascended gear is one upgrade you can strive for as such it gives people stuff to do.

This has nothing to do with pvp

Balance: Yes ironically ascended gear can help bridge the gap when you’re outnumbered or less skilled in a fight

That’s just a lame excuse for your lack of skill

Variety: which is the most important part and number one reason which I am going to talk in detail now.

The most crucial part of PvP is that it doesnt simply boil down to player skill but also has a large variety of variables in play. You may think this is stupid but its actually crucial. Imagine a game when stats are equal and it all boils down to player skill. So we’re saying remove skills, stats and gear. There is just the player who say has 10 health and a sword that does 2 damage every swing which you can swing every second.
How do you think PvP will play out in such a scenario. I can tell you once people master the game enough which will not take long it will always end up in a draw. What is skill after all? its mastering timing, strategy and counters. What creates those in the first place? the variables. If you dont have those little imbalances PvP wouldnt be any better then a game of tic-tac-toe something that will always end up in a tie.

You have that in terms of build variety, traits and different stats, i can’t see how having more stats than your opponents is considered variety.

And your example about MOBAs kind of goes back to you. Because in MOBAs you start at the same level as your opponent.
But since you pulled that out it would be like STARTING the game with MORE stats than your opponent.
Go tell a LoL’s PRO that it would be fine.

take again example from League of Legends.
You have runes in league of legends. teams of 5. would you be playing competitively if you’d play with no runes?
No.
You get all the stuff you need and THEN you can play properly.

You can’t say that it’s okey for some people to have worse gear than others and that it doesn’t matter. That’s just blls.it

Galen Grey.4709:

A for materials thats a bit debatable. its true for temple events, world bosses etc.. They will be full of people and thus they are a zerg sure but you’re not really zerging in the sense that you jump in there do the event and you’re gone. Its not like in say the champion trains when you’re actively zerging. I dont think ascended gear is really encouraging zergs, its encouraging certain game aspects like temples and world bosses.

A zerg is a zerg. It should be discouraged but it will never because of a target group of this game. Temples and world bosses are the most boring content designed in gw2 with the exception of the living story. The only way it could possibly be better is to make them instanced. “Open world raiding” translates to “welcome all zergs”.

High end content…

Galen Grey.4709:

Balance: Yes ironically ascended gear can help bridge the gap when you’re outnumbered or less skilled in a fight

Nope.

If you’re outnumbered, you’re about to get wrecked by CC.

If you’re less skilled, you’re going to get eaten alive no matter what gear you have.

Mackdose.6504:

Galen Grey.4709:

Balance: Yes ironically ascended gear can help bridge the gap when you’re outnumbered or less skilled in a fight

Nope.

If you’re outnumbered, you’re about to get wrecked by CC.

If you’re less skilled, you’re going to get eaten alive no matter what gear you have.

so ascended gear is not that big of a deal if you have no skill? ok. why remove it?

Delta Blues.8507:

Galen Grey.4709:

I’ll give you more then one good thing it bring to WvW.
Goal: Ascended gear is one upgrade you can strive for as such it gives people stuff to do.

This has nothing to do with pvp

We’re not talking about pvp here you keep calling it pvp but WvW is PvPvE its been pointed out plenty of times. And it doesnt need to be pointed out, there Events that have nothing to do with the fight between servers either does that have anything to do wiht PvP no but its part of WvW cause its PvPvE not PvP.

Delta Blues.8507:

That’s just a lame excuse for your lack of skill

Right my lack of skill. You do realize I am the guy arguing that he’s happy and wins fight with his alt in rares and you’re the person who says 1v1 is currently a problem because the other person might be wearing ascended and not you? are you sure you want to discuss skill here? You asked me in what situation ascended gear would be beneficial and that is one situation in which it would help. If you think that skill can help you win a 1vs2 engagement (which I agree completely) I dont see how a mere 5%-10% increase is such a big deal!

Delta Blues.8507:

You have that in terms of build variety, traits and different stats, i can’t see how having more stats than your opponents is considered variety.

And your example about MOBAs kind of goes back to you. Because in MOBAs you start at the same level as your opponent.
But since you pulled that out it would be like STARTING the game with MORE stats than your opponent.
Go tell a LoL’s PRO that it would be fine.

take again example from League of Legends.
You have runes in league of legends. teams of 5. would you be playing competitively if you’d play with no runes?
No.
You get all the stuff you need and THEN you can play properly.

You can’t say that it’s okey for some people to have worse gear than others and that it doesn’t matter. That’s just blls.it

I dont get this. Do you start the game with full runes in LoL? isnt it something you build slowly as you play matches? even ignoring the runes you might start off at the same level as your opponent but you’re not going to progress at the same speed. Does that mean there is no point in participating in any engagements until you get to max level and max out your gear because you or your enemy might have more/less stats?

haviz.1340:

Galen Grey.4709:

A for materials thats a bit debatable. its true for temple events, world bosses etc.. They will be full of people and thus they are a zerg sure but you’re not really zerging in the sense that you jump in there do the event and you’re gone. Its not like in say the champion trains when you’re actively zerging. I dont think ascended gear is really encouraging zergs, its encouraging certain game aspects like temples and world bosses.

A zerg is a zerg. It should be discouraged but it will never because of a target group of this game. Temples and world bosses are the most boring content designed in gw2 with the exception of the living story. The only way it could possibly be better is to make them instanced. “Open world raiding” translates to “welcome all zergs”.

High end content…

Zergs can never be discouraged no matter what you do. the only way to get ridt of them is to do what all other mmos do, make PvE competitive with mob tagging and stuff or hide boses in instances to control the number of players fighting them. Either way its going to be bad.

Galen Grey.4709:

Delta Blues.8507:

Galen Grey.4709:

I’ll give you more then one good thing it bring to WvW.
Goal: Ascended gear is one upgrade you can strive for as such it gives people stuff to do.

This has nothing to do with pvp

We’re not talking about pvp here you keep calling it pvp but WvW is PvPvE its been pointed out plenty of times. And it doesnt need to be pointed out, there Events that have nothing to do with the fight between servers either does that have anything to do wiht PvP no but its part of WvW cause its PvPvE not PvP.

Delta Blues.8507:

That’s just a lame excuse for your lack of skill

Right my lack of skill. You do realize I am the guy arguing that he’s happy and wins fight with his alt in rares and you’re the person who says 1v1 is currently a problem because the other person might be wearing ascended and not you? are you sure you want to discuss skill here? You asked me in what situation ascended gear would be beneficial and that is one situation in which it would help. If you think that skill can help you win a 1vs2 engagement (which I agree completely) I dont see how a mere 5%-10% increase is such a big deal!

Delta Blues.8507:

You have that in terms of build variety, traits and different stats, i can’t see how having more stats than your opponents is considered variety.

And your example about MOBAs kind of goes back to you. Because in MOBAs you start at the same level as your opponent.
But since you pulled that out it would be like STARTING the game with MORE stats than your opponent.
Go tell a LoL’s PRO that it would be fine.

take again example from League of Legends.
You have runes in league of legends. teams of 5. would you be playing competitively if you’d play with no runes?
No.
You get all the stuff you need and THEN you can play properly.

You can’t say that it’s okey for some people to have worse gear than others and that it doesn’t matter. That’s just blls.it

I dont get this. Do you start the game with full runes in LoL? isnt it something you build slowly as you play matches? even ignoring the runes you might start off at the same level as your opponent but you’re not going to progress at the same speed. Does that mean there is no point in participating in any engagements until you get to max level and max out your gear because you or your enemy might have more/less stats?

We obviously play pvp at different levels, cause the people I tend to challenge there’s usually now way you can take them 1v2 / 2v2 in rares.

Ofcourse if you keep looking for upleveled rangers who cares about gear

Mackdose.6504:

Galen Grey.4709:

Balance: Yes ironically ascended gear can help bridge the gap when you’re outnumbered or less skilled in a fight

Nope.

If you’re outnumbered, you’re about to get wrecked by CC.

If you’re less skilled, you’re going to get eaten alive no matter what gear you have.

yes and no… keep in mind I agree that skill is the most contributing factor in Gw2. I have personal won 1 vs 2 fights with not even full exotic sets never mind ascended and did so more then once. There was even a case were we came across a zerg 3 or even 4 times larger then we were, I was so sure we’d loose imagine my surprise when 30 mins or os later we were chasing the few surviving players of that zerg who ran away.

What I am saying here is not if I have ascended gear and come across 2 people in exotics I am going to win because of the ascended gear, not by far. I am only saying that balance is a subjective subject. In terms of stats alone (not considering skills or anything else) one person in ascended gear against 2 people in exotic is more balanced then 1 person in exotic against 2 people in exotics. As such saying that removing ascended gear would make for a more level playing field is false because while it is true in some cases it is not in others.

I am of the mind that they should make gear irrelevant and just add in the amulets like in spvp so that EVERYONE is on an even playing field. Keep the cosmetics of a players armor so they can still look cool, but let their stats come from the amulets.

I say this as a player who has full ascended and is working on an alternate set of full ascended now. I think its absurd to stay competitive in a game mode I enjoy I am forced to do a stupid meaningless task on a daily basis. Just my 2 cents, but I feel like the only players who would be against this are the ones who need a crutch to stand on and enjoy killing players who are at a stat disadvantage to them.

Galen Grey.4709:

Zergs can never be discouraged no matter what you do. the only way to get ridt of them is to do what all other mmos do, make PvE competitive with mob tagging and stuff or hide boses in instances to control the number of players fighting them. Either way its going to be bad.

Long before launch, anet designers claimed that bosses get new abilities with more people around that let them handle those players properly. Have you seen anything like that? If bosses could instagib not five but all players afking the fight zerging could be at least a bit discouraged.

Monadproxy.3489:

Mackdose.6504:

Galen Grey.4709:

Balance: Yes ironically ascended gear can help bridge the gap when you’re outnumbered or less skilled in a fight

Nope.

If you’re outnumbered, you’re about to get wrecked by CC.

If you’re less skilled, you’re going to get eaten alive no matter what gear you have.

so ascended gear is not that big of a deal if you have no skill? ok. why remove it?

I’m not asking to remove it. I’m just saying that ascended gear isn’t going to carry you.

DocHolliday.5921:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Ascended > Exotic. Therefore remove Ascended gear.
Exotic > Rare. Therefore remove Exotic gear.
Rare > Masterwork. Therefore remove Rare.
Masterwork > White. Therefore remove Masterwork.

I think the complainers would be happy if everyone was on the same level – Basic White gear. But they fail to realize that WvW is not SPvP. If they’re not happy with WvW, they should stick to the structured PvP part of the game, where everything is even.

But hark, there’s more:

Superior Runes can give an unfair advantage as well, since they add bonus stats to a player’s attributes. And since Superior Runes are so hard to come by in WvW… well, you know how the current argument goes.

The “complainers” appear to be the majority of the people who play WvWvW. Maybe you should go over to those forums and tell them exactly how their game mode is supposed to work and why their opinions mean nothing? Clearly, you’re the only person who’s opinion actually matters, right?

Majority of WvW’ers don’t post on the forums, argument invalid.

Anyone who makes excuses as to why ascended is ok for wvw don’t want a balanced pvp game. There is no argument as to why ascended makes things better, it does not.

It is completely unnecessary and is simply a mechanism to retain players and make money. This has nothing ti do with “make it like spvp” its making a gametype balanced. Even footing.

People for ascended are the ones who already play a ton, and don’t care about balanced fights. Its pretty obvious as to why balance promotes pvp play, so all counter arguments are kind of pointless. just scale stats down to exotic in wvw. You keep your fancy weps, game stays easier to balance