Remove Boonshare, It's gonna break WvW

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Posted by: Rashagar.8349

Rashagar.8349

Huh, somehow I have never noticed the “nearby allies” part of that skill. Neat, thanks!

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Posted by: claytonmorby.3751

claytonmorby.3751

Boon share mesmers are not a problem. The same boon stacking can be achieved by camping malyx, you only give up perma quickness in return for better boon strip immunity. The only reason to run boon share is to open up heralds to spam dwarf rite which is not as big a problem as it used to be. Running such tight builds are their own weakness as a more versatile group can focus key elements down while keeping a greater degree of freedom.

Except it can’t. You could run two identical groups, give one a boonshare Mesmer and that group will have more access and more duration. The reason people use boonshare is because it makes something that was already good, great. And there isn’t a more versatile group. People aren’t just running around with heralds and mesmers. They have eles dedicated to healing, guardians to provide stab and cc, necros to provide their own boonstrip. They’ll even have thieves for pick. All these different classes benefiting from only a few traits and utility spells.

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Posted by: SubHonour Guard.6498

SubHonour Guard.6498

Boon share pretty much requires double herald + mesmer, a pretty big investment. The alternative is 1 herald hitting pain absorption every 4 seconds.

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Posted by: claytonmorby.3751

claytonmorby.3751

Boon share pretty much requires double herald + mesmer, a pretty big investment. The alternative is 1 herald hitting pain absorption every 4 seconds.

In your previous post you said you could achieve it without Mesmer

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Posted by: SubHonour Guard.6498

SubHonour Guard.6498

Yes. By having one herald hitting pain absorption every 4 seconds? Are you blind??

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Posted by: claytonmorby.3751

claytonmorby.3751

Pain absorption only creates resistance? People aren’t only complaining about that. People are complaining about every single boon. If it was just resistance then it would be much easier to counter. Which is the whole point of the thread. Which I guess you didn’t read through.

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Posted by: SubHonour Guard.6498

SubHonour Guard.6498

Except that you still get perma up time on the boons from eles/heralds. Literally no difference in boon up time except for quickness/dwarf rite.

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Posted by: claytonmorby.3751

claytonmorby.3751

Welp don’t know what to tell you. In both theory crafting and practice you’re wrong. A Mesmer can more than double boon duration.

(edited by claytonmorby.3751)

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Posted by: SubHonour Guard.6498

SubHonour Guard.6498

How about this for practice. We scrim ND often and while they are the better guild, we have had similar success against them running both with and without boon share.

Here’s what my bar looks like with boon share: http://puu.sh/oaP29/d24f7614d2.jpg

Here’s what my bar looks like without boon share: http://puu.sh/pkKyD/8b17d7a785.jpg

We’ve run boon share for months and are now moving away from it again. There’s advantages to running it but also added weaknesses, I would know.

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Posted by: claytonmorby.3751

claytonmorby.3751

So you have more boons and more boon duration? Wow! I realize GvG can utilize different mechanics due to much more highly skilled and coordinated players, and a boonshare mesmer might not fit your matchup 100% of the time. But those are regulated to what 15v15? 20v20? The problem is that the benefit grows exponentially. That and the fact that having every single boon in the game being permanently maintained. It is extremely passive gameplay that allows you to ignore a large amount of the mechanics this game has.

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Posted by: SubHonour Guard.6498

SubHonour Guard.6498

You’re missing the point. Every single boon in the game can be permanently maintained without a boon share Mesmer, minus quickness.

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Posted by: SubHonour Guard.6498

SubHonour Guard.6498

Also you’re wrong. Having a group composition that doesn’t fall apart when your herald/mesmer dies scales far better than one that does.

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Posted by: claytonmorby.3751

claytonmorby.3751

You’re missing my point. I am not crying for mesmers to be gutted. I am not solely blaming mesmers. Mesmers do add more duration and can help reapply if someone get theirs stripped. They add benefit to something that is already strong. There are so many small things that together have created a huge powercreep in terms of boons and survival. I don’t have a single suggestion of how to remedy it, because everything is so intertwined now.

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Posted by: SubHonour Guard.6498

SubHonour Guard.6498

So when I said boon share mesmers are not the problem what you meant to say was “I agree”. Got it.

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Posted by: claytonmorby.3751

claytonmorby.3751

Also you’re wrong. Having a group composition that doesn’t fall apart when your herald/mesmer dies scales far better than one that does.

If that’s true why are all the top guilds running setups around high boon uptime?

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Posted by: claytonmorby.3751

claytonmorby.3751

So when I said boon share mesmers are not the problem what you meant to say was “I agree”. Got it.

Nope, they are a piece of the problem.

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Posted by: claytonmorby.3751

claytonmorby.3751

Understand that I don’t mean anything personal against people who run it. Hell I run it myself. I just agree with many others that its a very passive playstyle and allows you to ignore a large majority of the game mechanics.

I’m nowhere near as desperate to defend my point as you are, so good day sir.

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Posted by: SubHonour Guard.6498

SubHonour Guard.6498

I agree that it’s a very passive play style, that’s part of the reason we stopped playing it. I disagree that all the top guilds are running it. Some are and some are not while they are all still experiencing success. It’s just one way to play and by no means is it the best way.

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Posted by: Rashagar.8349

Rashagar.8349

Alright, just for curiosity/boredom.

I think a culprit would need to be settled upon. So far boon sharing, boon duration, revenants, durability runes, the resistance boon, blob size, the strength of conditions and individual definitions of honour have all received some amount of finger pointing haha!

So let’s work off the assumption that this is a problem, that devs balance with wvw in mind, and that nerfs to general things are going to be amicably accepted by the playerbase without mass threats of throwing their toys out of the pram and leaving forever over trivialities.

Possible solutions, assuming a culprit could be settled upon:
Take something from durability rune (it seems a bit outside the power curve of other runes at a glance, possibly remove boon duration from it, spread the boon application bonuses between the tiers and give them each individual less rng based trigger conditions, though that might make it even more powerful than it is now in one sense).
Cap boon (and condi?) duration at 50% (boon downtime should ideally be a thing outside of corruption, and people were saying condis are too strong too). This’d need tweaking of some things eg. Heralds f2, consumables. I wouldn’t mind a lower cap to boon duration if there were still multiple potential avenues to reach said lower threshold, some combination of gear, runes, food and spec lines without requiring all available resources dedicated to it. Though some might see less specialisation required as a bad thing.
Stop counting Resistance as a boon. That way it can’t be shared or extended outside of what’s expected. Should still stack to allow for team coordination though.
Change Pain Absorption to only give a nearby ally resistance if it transfers a condition from them to the revenant. Stops out of combat group stacking of the boon, means it’s more a reactive skill than proactive.
Hard cap the number of boons that can be shared by the mesmer signet, like I saw someone suggest before. It’s still really powerful even if it does “only” copy 3-5. If a boon priority table is introduced for it, it should probably be the same priority table that boon corruption would newly use. Or leave it at random.
Change the mesmer trait that gives a bonus use of signet of inspiration to something else, so a mesmer would only have one use of the skill every 30s or whatever instead of 2. Personally I don’t like this option, but you never know.

So, some potential solutions to a possible problem, feel free to discuss the merits/flaws of any or all.

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Posted by: OriOri.8724

OriOri.8724

Boonshare isn’t the problem. The problem is that some classes can apply a lot of extremely powerful boons with almost no thought put into it. If the amount of boons generated, and the duration shortened, boonshare wouldn’t be nearly as much of a problem as it is now. Boons were always supposed to be supplemental bonuses, not something that you could expect to have all the time.

That and Resistance really needs to be updated to match protection instead of completely ignoring all effects from all conditions.

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Posted by: Fay.2357

Fay.2357

That and Resistance really needs to be updated to match protection instead of completely ignoring all effects from all conditions.

Either that or give it the stability treatment, where it stacks up and stacks are removed every time it nullifies a condition. This has the added benefit of drastically changing its interaction with boonshare. Boonsharing a stacking boon has no effect on its duration, only the stack size. This would make it so that boonshare comps could still burst up a ton of stacks of resistance a few moments before the engage to beef up their frontline, but they couldn’t just roll around permanently stacked up with resistance.

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Posted by: funghetto.1584

funghetto.1584

and if resistance instead of 100% immunity to condition becomes like protection boon (-33% damage)?

resistance = 50% reduction of conditions (so 1s of bleeding becomes 0,5s – 1s fear will rip 1 stability – 4s imobilize will become 2s etc etc etc)

that will make some sense in figths. casuals builds could stand a chance (even if nearly 0%) vs a 10-20 organized guild group running those set up of boon sharing etc etc etc

“There’s no such thing as balance, fairness or honor.”
a Fissure Of Woe player that has no home.

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Posted by: apharma.3741

apharma.3741

Either way if resistance is changed then revenant will need a bit of an overhaul as mallyx suddenly becomes almost suicidal with pain absorption. The entire class would be woefully weak against conditions without the option to pick a trait line that counters conditions as much as say engy which is supposed to be weak vs conditions.

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

Either way if resistance is changed then revenant will need a bit of an overhaul as mallyx suddenly becomes almost suicidal with pain absorption. The entire class would be woefully weak against conditions without the option to pick a trait line that counters conditions as much as say engy which is supposed to be weak vs conditions.

My thoughts exactly. If Mallyx didn’t self-inflict it might do better, and we’d also need to see pretty hefty nerfs to confusion and burning, with condition application in general being toned down across multiple professions/builds.

As someone mentioned above, it’s really just accessibility on strong boons that needs big decreases. We’re seeing so much access to things like low-cooldown high-duration protection and stability, aegis spamming, etc., that a lot of the content is trivialized into who runs more boons, especially since scaling is so out of control with the elite specs. Consider the mes vs thief matchup now; is consume plasma’s brief resistance access swaying thief vs condi mes into unfairness right now? Not really. Permanent applications of boons, however, break things pretty significantly.

We need to see more thief/necro levels of boons where they need huge build investments to achieve and cannot readily maintain them without sacrifices on some end, not to mention the stacked/upheld boons here are typically weaker. Even 25 might is mathematically weaker than any access to protection, swiftness won’t win a fight innately, and fury, while good, is very far from being as good as protection, aegis, and resistance.

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Posted by: jul.7602

jul.7602

Nothing to do with mesmers. The problem is the revenant f2 that grants 50% boon duration. Considering how much of an investment it is to get 50% boon duration on a single character, it’s just a little too strong to have a passive AoE that grants 50% boon duration for free.

Now I don’t think boonshare is nearly as strong as people make it out to be. I think nerfing revenant f2 to 30% boon duration, with maybe a trait that moves it to 40% would be enough to bring it in line.

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Posted by: CrimsonNeonite.1048

CrimsonNeonite.1048

Now I don’t think boonshare is nearly as strong as people make it out to be. I think nerfing revenant f2 to 30% boon duration, with maybe a trait that moves it to 40% would be enough to bring it in line.

Would that in any way, effect Revenants in PvP though? Since PvP/WvW balance is currently linked.

Scrubio
Plays completely opposite professions to his main Teef.

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Posted by: Taxidriver.2043

Taxidriver.2043

give thief’s choking gas something useful like remove boons or turn boon into condition

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Posted by: Mushin.3928

Mushin.3928

Mallyx pain absorption is one of the few general defenses against the condi meta. Nerfing it without a corresponding weakening of conditions will only make that meta stronger. And IMO condi is already out of control in WvW, and really bad for the game.

The driver in our fight guild often gets 8-10 seconds of immobs on him, in addition to huge stacks of bleeding, vulnerability, etc. Without resistance, he dies, and the rest of us have a much harder time fighting after that.

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Posted by: jason.9548

jason.9548

You can counter boonshare too easily.
A) strip the drivers(commander)boons only so that his melee train will never go in.
B) driver snipe #1 strategy most guilds only have one driver. You will win every fight.
C) ignore melee train and play max pirate ship. Get ranged players only.
D) nothing else to add but I would like to say that DragonBrand is dead lols. Db needs to die faster

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Posted by: TheBeesKnees.8391

TheBeesKnees.8391

You can counter boonshare too easily.
A) strip the drivers(commander)boons only so that his melee train will never go in.
B) driver snipe #1 strategy most guilds only have one driver. You will win every fight.
C) ignore melee train and play max pirate ship. Get ranged players only.
D) nothing else to add but I would like to say that DragonBrand is dead lols. Db needs to die faster

Commander sniping is for groups who can’t fight without cheap tactics, you do that obviously in a GvG and believe me kitten will hit the fan. If you’re gonna be someone who commander snipes, you might as well just play boonshare. ’Cause who wants fun fights?

Pirate ship is boring as fudge. Hence why it’s not used by many guilds, and for it to be useful you need a hell of lot of numbers. Again, boring.

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Posted by: TheBeesKnees.8391

TheBeesKnees.8391

Certain Conditions need a nerf, yes. Burning/Confusion are the main two. But promote more active condi cleansing that requires skill and remove this passive immunity that dumbs down the game too ridiculous levels.

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Posted by: Spurnshadow.3678

Spurnshadow.3678

I just keep hearing a bunch of I want to spam all my skills and not have to think about anything, co-ordinate anything, or do what it takes to win.

Blackgate Native. It takes tremendous strength and skill to pull a lever.

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Posted by: TheBeesKnees.8391

TheBeesKnees.8391

I just keep hearing a bunch of I want to spam all my skills and not have to think about anything, co-ordinate anything, or do what it takes to win.

Yes because actually using a skill to actively notice and remove a condi is less co-ordinated than stacking resistance in the middle of a fight and having basically a first push immunity. (which is still a lot easier than you think it is)

I honestly don’t know why you’re still getting involved, we’ve already established that boonshare isn’t much of an issue in NA, and we’ve also established that you have little to no experience with it… Begging the question, why do you even care about a subject you obviously don’t understand?

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Posted by: Jski.6180

Jski.6180

Just make it like tempest heat sink only let some boons have the boon share effect. So removed the abitly to boon share resistances stab and quickness.

Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
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Posted by: Roxanne.6140

Roxanne.6140

I just keep hearing a bunch of I want to spam all my skills and not have to think about anything, co-ordinate anything, or do what it takes to win.

I know right, people should really give the game raiden a shot. it might be their cuppa.

it’s just yadda yadda i wanna kill some classes because i cant stand their face again


gaem not made for mi
===========

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Posted by: OriOri.8724

OriOri.8724

That and Resistance really needs to be updated to match protection instead of completely ignoring all effects from all conditions.

Either that or give it the stability treatment, where it stacks up and stacks are removed every time it nullifies a condition. This has the added benefit of drastically changing its interaction with boonshare. Boonsharing a stacking boon has no effect on its duration, only the stack size. This would make it so that boonshare comps could still burst up a ton of stacks of resistance a few moments before the engage to beef up their frontline, but they couldn’t just roll around permanently stacked up with resistance.

That could work too. Though just for clarification, if I had say 4 stacks of bleeding are you envisioning that taking 1 stack of resistance to nullify since its only 1 condition, or 4 stacks of resistance since its 4 stacks of a condition?

Another option that ANet has would be to change Resistance so that it only affects some effects of conditions. Either it could prevent them from hurting you, or prevent the movement impairing effects of conditions but not both. This would at least give the other group the chance to do something in the fight, whether it be merely hurt the boonshare blob or impede their movement.

Though like someone else mentioned, really the amount of condi application needs to be cut down as well.

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Posted by: Fay.2357

Fay.2357

That and Resistance really needs to be updated to match protection instead of completely ignoring all effects from all conditions.

Either that or give it the stability treatment, where it stacks up and stacks are removed every time it nullifies a condition. This has the added benefit of drastically changing its interaction with boonshare. Boonsharing a stacking boon has no effect on its duration, only the stack size. This would make it so that boonshare comps could still burst up a ton of stacks of resistance a few moments before the engage to beef up their frontline, but they couldn’t just roll around permanently stacked up with resistance.

That could work too. Though just for clarification, if I had say 4 stacks of bleeding are you envisioning that taking 1 stack of resistance to nullify since its only 1 condition, or 4 stacks of resistance since its 4 stacks of a condition?

Another option that ANet has would be to change Resistance so that it only affects some effects of conditions. Either it could prevent them from hurting you, or prevent the movement impairing effects of conditions but not both. This would at least give the other group the chance to do something in the fight, whether it be merely hurt the boonshare blob or impede their movement.

Though like someone else mentioned, really the amount of condi application needs to be cut down as well.

I’d say have it work exactly like stability does now.

If you have bleeding on you (are stunned) and gain resistance (gain stability), nothing happens, as you need a condition removal (stunbreak) to remove conditions (cc).

If you have 5 stacks of resistance (stability) and an attack would apply 4 stacks of bleeding on you immediately (multiple ccs would land simultaneously), 1 stack of resistance (stability) is consumed to nullify the bleeds (cc).

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Posted by: Trajan.4953

Trajan.4953

Boonshare is broken AF.

The current “hammer train” meta is the worst it’s ever been.

To the Devs, variety is nice! Lets try some of that!

CCCP….

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Posted by: Kyon.9735

Kyon.9735

ANET have long seen this coming even before HoT. It’s the reason they nerfed boon share on Tempest Warhorn (Heat Sink) which was its selling point. I’ve always wondered why they never did the same to other boonshare cheese.

Anet, stop feigning ignorance.

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Posted by: Famine.7915

Famine.7915

Nah boon share is fine. Now damage, that’s a problem. Just remove damage from wvw, we don’t need it anyways and it just ruins everything.

Vee/Volk
Maguuma – Predatory Instinct [HUNT]
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Posted by: Trajan.4953

Trajan.4953

Lol

Famine nailed it.

CCCP….

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Posted by: Artaz.3819

Artaz.3819

Or just allow more than a handful of class abilities actually strip or corrupt boons (sorry Necro).

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Posted by: ImperialWL.7138

ImperialWL.7138

Nothing is wrong with boonshare, just learn to play i.e. focus target. Of course if you play old way by dropping aoe everywhere and hoping for the best it’s not going to work.

And for your information, boonshare was prevalent long before now. Certain guilds like ORC always ran with boonshare mesmers, and then there’s this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34QH7nelrrk

(edited by ImperialWL.7138)

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Posted by: bubbachua.1243

bubbachua.1243

Bump. Anet needs to focus on this

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Posted by: Steelo.4597

Steelo.4597

All the bloody protection and resistance stacking needs to go ASAP.

i fear we will look back to this day and remember the good old wvw as it is now – Jan 2015

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Posted by: Aeolus.3615

Aeolus.3615

All the bloody protection and resistance stacking needs to go ASAP.

condi bomb is gimmick(not hard to pull) so is its counter, both need “fix” imo, but gw2 is very gimmick centered game, i dont see condis working besides spammable skills and i dont see resistance being nerfed that soon, they might someday nerf rune CD into 35-40 sec.

1st April joke, when gw2 receives a “balance” update.

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Posted by: Jeknar.6184

Jeknar.6184

All the bloody protection and resistance stacking needs to go ASAP.

Protection isn’t THAT bad… You still deal damage, just reduced. Resistance completely counter all condition damage AND condition effects. It’s pretty much as if everyone had Berserker Stance up.

Resistance should act like protection and only reduce the effects, not entirely eliminate them.

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Posted by: frickenreesh.7068

frickenreesh.7068

Conditions are WAY too strong right now, so having this boonshare stuff to stack up resistance is really the only hope for a lot of these groups trying to fight big condi blobs.

I was playing on my Elementalist a couple days ago and ran in to a burn guardian that was ticking 8k burn ticks on me, that is hitting me harder than a full zerk guardian would lol.. When conditions are hitting harder than raw power in a single tick, there is a problem.

Really what needs to happen is a complete rework of conditions. They should be toned down extremely then made to be effected by crit chance and ferocity for damage increases. That way someone can’t just throw on a full set of dire armor and live forever and do more damage than a full zerk person can do. Not really balanced currently. Dire users damage should be in line with Soldier users damage. No big modifier like crit chance and ferocity, then you deal significantly less damage, just like someone using soldiers would.

So nope, can’t feel bad about the boon share stuff going on with resistance right now. It is really all us power builds have left to save face against these condition builds.

Im pretty sure that was me on the burn guard, if you are on BP, I have been looking for new from the old ways to bring damage to group fights, and still have stabs for back line group, and I didnt use dire stats FYI, it is a mix of a few things, to give me the stats I want. It is fun that most of my skills are big damage but with large cool downs and being squishy-ish.

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Posted by: davidiven.9408

davidiven.9408

people crying about pirate ship meta, anet buff stabs and creates new tools for us, this meta really helps small guilds have better chance to win fights against blob, isn’t that most people want it?

I agree boon sharing need some tweaks, but don’t forget about the conditions

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Posted by: Simonoly.4352

Simonoly.4352

Boonshare is just hilarious these days. Perma-resistance is very much a thing that is relatively straight forward to achieve with a couple of competent Mesmers. This wouldn’t really be that much of an issue if resistance didn’t negate 100% of ALL condition damage and effects. Make resistance negate just 50% of the effectiveness of condition damage applied to you but make resistance as ubiquitous as protection so it’s uptime is less reliant on boonshare whilst also preventing players from being entirely immune to one type of damage.

Gandara