Guild Wars 2

Are you kidding?

Rams get ac’d down in seconds, Cata’s have no protection with loss of swirling winds as have trebs. And you want to remove the last avenue of breaking into a defended keep?

My answer is a bit tongue in cheek.

@ Reborn +1

Agree: Remove PvDoors.

Offski.4897:

Are you kidding?

Rams get ac’d down in seconds, Cata’s have no protection with loss of swirling winds as have trebs. And you want to remove the last avenue of breaking into a defended keep?

My answer is a bit tongue in cheek.

^^

This

Couldn’t have said it better myself! +1 Reborn…. kudos for posting this! Please remove the PvDoors!

Offski.4897:

Are you kidding?

Rams get ac’d down in seconds, Cata’s have no protection with loss of swirling winds as have trebs. And you want to remove the last avenue of breaking into a defended keep?

My answer is a bit tongue in cheek.

First it depends on how many AC’s are in place and manned. A single SAC still takes about a minute to take down a SRam, I know, I just did it last night and was watching the time it took.

I think ANet realized the purely offensive/zerg nature that WvW had taken and have tried to implement some defensive incentives. As one member of our server put it, the pendulum swung the other way, it will swing back I’m sure, just not at much. A defended Tower/Keep should be tough to get into, it shouldn’t take you less than 3m to get in and kill the Claimer.

Argue for your limitations and you get to keep them. If you think trebs and cats are worthless and zerging is the only means of taking a keep…well, stop playing WvW then, because plenty of people stopped playing WvW because they got tired of getting zerg-rolled constantly in fully upgraded keeps and garrisons in less time than it takes to use the bathroom. You want something more reasonable? Try this:

1 Player damage to gates removed or reduced to 1
2 AC extended range and damage reduced 25%
3 Only 1 Golem per Keep/Garrison owned on a map
4 Increase Superior Ram Life by 25% and give 33% damage reduction to person manning it(since it has a top cover and all)
5 remove all player bonuses on siege not produced by WvW rank skill system
6 Double Siege Might and Bunker values

But I completely agree with Reborn that player damage to gates needs to be removed or dropped to 1. An 80 person zerg hitting for only 50 each will do 4k/dps, 20k in the time it takes a Ram to do 16K, completely unreasonable since the real numbers on player damage to gates is usually much higher.

I agree with this suggestion. Remove PvDoors. Also, buff Flame Ram HP slightly.

+1 Agree: Remove player damage to gates (and walls).

It would make players use more siege equipment and supply to do what it was meant to do in the game, be used to attack and defend structures, and slow down the giant roaming bands which don’t have to invest anything to just beat gate after gate down.

At the very least, PvDoor damage should stop having an effect on a Gate or Wall after a certain point (such as 50% of door/wall strength left).

:o remove PvD!? that’s the best ideia i readed on the forum srly!

Offski.4897:

Are you kidding?

Rams get ac’d down in seconds, Cata’s have no protection with loss of swirling winds as have trebs. And you want to remove the last avenue of breaking into a defended keep?

My answer is a bit tongue in cheek.

Or you could learn tactics and strategy.. as was intended for WvW.
There’s several ways to kill AC’s inside a tower, same with catas and trebs.
Just stop freaking out that the old silly mindless way doesn’t work(as well) as it did before.

100% DISAGREE with the OP. People come to WvW to play. They do not come to stand around and watch a few others fire a siege. They do not come to stand around and wait for a god mode buff to wear of an NPC.

There needs to be more action in the game.

style.6173:

100% DISAGREE with the OP. People come to WvW to play. They do not come to stand around and watch a few others fire a siege. They do not come to stand around and wait for a god mode buff to wear of an NPC.

There needs to be more action in the game.

Autoattacking doors does not equal ‘action’ in my book.

Op has my full support.

Agree completely with op.

I bought into wvw on the promise of ‘large scale PvP’ and all I see nowadays is ‘uber-blob PvD’.

I agree with OP. I have many gripes about WvW but there is still potential for it especially in this thread.

I think we should remove all aspects of the game that aren’t siege.

Maybe even give us cool skins for our siege, so we still feel unique and all..

Multi Golem rushes will smash through a fully upgraded keep in minutes….or they did, anyway. If nothing else, the AC buff slows that down.

In retrospect, it might have been better to nerf golems.

Counter-intuitive? Shouldn’t be possible? Ever heard of an axe?

As far I have seen, the door are made out of wood and not metal. And I think you an cut wood.

Johnny didn’t had troubles with it: http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Books/Pix/pictures/2009/01/07/shining460.gif

ps.: a game needs to be fast passed, if it takes 4 hours to take hills or bay, than I say goodbye I am gone to play a fun game. And countering a zerg really ain’t that hard, a server big blob will lose against 25 guildies in a tower. This is just a l2 kitten ue, just as you think we, that don’t like the AC, have a l2 kitten ue too.

AC damage to siege will be nerfed, so not sure why people are complaining about that.

Other than that, I agree with OP to some extent. The suggestion is a step in the right direction but perhaps allowing people to damage a door once it is below 10% health would be a better solution.

MiLkZz.4789:

Counter-intuitive? Shouldn’t be possible? Ever heard of an axe?

As far I have seen, the door are made out of wood and not metal. And I think you an cut wood.

Johnny didn’t had troubles with it: http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Books/Pix/pictures/2009/01/07/shining460.gif

Reinforced gates are metal plated as far as I can tell.

Gab Superstar.4059:

The suggestion is a step in the right direction but perhaps allowing people to damage a door once it is below 10% health would be a better solution.

Or perhaps unupgraded doors can be damaged but upgraded require siege.

If this idea gets implemented you will lose all the top guilds. They will move to a game that has PvP, they wouldn’t care how crappy their graphics are, as long as it has decent PvP.

Looks like Anet decided that PvP doesn’t belong in WvW, character skill should be used on mobs not players. WvW should be siege only they say. This is plain boring and requires no skill. It will become like chess with good graphics. And I don’t like to play chess, I like something that requires fast thinking, reflexes and good hand-eye coordination.

Wanna stop PvDoor? Remove the doors, problem solved!

MiLkZz.4789:

If this idea gets implemented you will lose all the top guilds. They will move to a game that has PvP, they wouldn’t care how crappy their graphics are, as long as it has decent PvP.

Looks like Anet decided that PvP doesn’t belong in WvW, character skill should be used on mobs not players. WvW should be siege only they say. This is plain boring and requires no skill. It will become like chess with good graphics. And I don’t like to play chess, I like something that requires fast thinking, reflexes and good hand-eye coordination.

So preventing huge masses of people from autoattacking a door for 10 minutes decreases the skill needed to play the game, is what you’re saying.

I agree with this idea, it should’ve been in a long time ago. Sieges should be about (oddly enough) siege. Can’t count the number of times a small group of us have taken a tower/keep, filled it up with defence and destroyed every piece of siege equipment the enemy has thrown at us.. only for them to just take the entire gate down by weight of numbers.

So many sieges have turned into a massive gate smash without even TRYING to build siege.

Why would the “top” guilds leave? Who decided they were “top” anyway. The game is about sieges, clearly they aren’t “top” guilds if they are trying to play a different game. Plenty of PvP exists, and if you have enough numbers to brute force down a gate you generally aren’t going to hate any sort of interesting or skillful fight anyway. Reflexes and all that stuff goes out the window as soon as you start stacking up on one spot in the way all the “top” guilds do, due to the spell effects and player models covering up any ability to see what animations are going on and actually react.

Luiz Swordbreaker.6547:

Wanna stop PvDoor? Remove the doors, problem solved!

This is the best solution. Doors get in the way of arrow cart choke points. It’s such a bore waiting for them doors to go down

100% agree, players being unable to damage doors would solve a lot of problems without creating any. If you want to get into a tower/keep use some siege. Not hard!

MiLkZz.4789:

Counter-intuitive? Shouldn’t be possible? Ever heard of an axe?

As far I have seen, the door are made out of wood and not metal. And I think you an cut wood.

Johnny didn’t had troubles with it: http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Books/Pix/pictures/2009/01/07/shining460.gif

ps.: a game needs to be fast passed, if it takes 4 hours to take hills or bay, than I say goodbye I am gone to play a fun game. And countering a zerg really ain’t that hard, a server big blob will lose against 25 guildies in a tower. This is just a l2 kitten ue, just as you think we, that don’t like the AC, have a l2 kitten ue too.

I was not going to say anything but if you want to be logical about it,a large group of people will have killed themselves in the process of trying to break down a door due to all fifty of them swinging axes within a small radius.

In future think carefully before feigning logic.

I was hoping this would be more of removing WvW being all about coverage and nothing more. I say hurry up with the Asian beta so all these oceanic, asian, and other people ruining WvW (due to coverage, nothing about nationality or race) get on their own regional servers and let NA/EU servers be about NA/EU primetime and nothing more. This is essentially the issue with PvDoor.

However, as far as damaging a gate as a player, I don’t see the problem with it. You don’t deal significant damage and an entire army shouldn’t be stopped by a wooden wall.

style.6173:

100% DISAGREE with the OP. People come to WvW to play. They do not come to stand around and watch a few others fire a siege. They do not come to stand around and wait for a god mode buff to wear of an NPC.

There needs to be more action in the game.

It used to be, and in some cases still is, called cavalry…..you get a group of mobile folks who flank or charge into the opposing force while they’re occupied by your siege. Did you not take any history classes?

Instead of standing around complaining about a god mode buff why don’t you go to another objective while the timer goes?

But I guess if you wanted more action you could just remove all the structures, get rid of siege prints and supply, get rid of repair and come up with a different rank incentive system that doesn’t involve all that stuff…..oh wait, they have that already, it’s called SPvP(aka The Mists), another name might be World of Warcraft.

Last week, while outmanned on EB, one of our towers was attacked by huge 70+ player Asian zerg guild (and militia).

Using our prepared catas and trebs at the keep, as well as it’s mortars, we eventually managed to bring down their array of rams and catapults.

With the door at 25%, their siege gone, and build sites taken out easily, we thought we had won.

Then they literally PvDoor’d the last 25% of the gates health, and took the tower.

So while things have changed since then with the arrow cart buff, I still think no player damage to doors is an important change that should happen to prevent circumstances where numbers result in victory, even when being tactically outplayed.

Mif.3471:

Last week, while outmanned on EB, one of our towers was attacked by huge 70+ player Asian zerg guild (and militia).

Using out prepared catas and trebs at the keep, as well as it’s mortars, we eventually managed to bring down their array of rams and catapults.

With the door and 25%, their siege gone, and build sites taken out easily, we thought we had won.

Then they literally PvDoor’d the last 25% of the gates health, and took the tower.

So while things have changed since then with the arrow cart buff, I still think no player damage to doors is an important change that should happen to prevent circumstances where numbers result in victory, even when being tactically outplayed.

+1, well said and theoretically proven with experience

Arenanet,

Please don’t listen to these supposed, “concerns of the community”. I can honestly tell you that it is a VERY TINY MINORITY of the population who think in these terms.

taking a fully upgraded Garrison without siege just pew pew the door and in 30 seconds later. Even the mighty arrow cart cant stop them. This is apparent most out of hours when the opposing server can run round with 50-100 zerg against 5-10 defenders make them work for the map.

Svarty.8019:

Arenanet,

Please don’t listen to these supposed, “concerns of the community”. I can honestly tell you that it is a VERY TINY MINORITY of the population who think in these terms.

You can honestly tell us, honestly? Wow, and how do you quantify this? How many do you represent? If anybody here is represented by Svarty please post that he speaks for you. Where’s your proof of statement, your data showing it’s a "VERY TINY’ ALL IN CAPS “MINORITY”. People like you who say they speak for others and self-righteously say they’re the majority and none should listen to anyone else amuse me…

If we take the ratio of those who agree vs disagree, so far the agree’s have it. I’m sure once the talk about AC’s has died down some even more will start voicing opinions.

Until AC’s get their damage toned down against other siege, especially rams, this can’t happen.

Basically, as it stands now, unless a group is able to night cap a keep or treb and then overwhelm them, a group of 5 is able to keep out a group of 40 with just a few AC’s, which is pretty ridiculous.

I expected a bump to AC damage, sure. But the amount that they bumped it too not only kills zergs, but also any way to take a keep.

Want to take a keep now? Better not ram unless no one is inside. If anyone is inside, build a treb.

Oh, an enemy zerg comes to wipe your treb? Oh, lets stack and…oh, they’re building an arrow cart! Lets take them ouuuu….and we’re dead.

This game has gone from Zerg V Zerg to AC v AC.

While I understand the need to change mechanics, the current change was a bit much, and there weren’t enough balances to go along with it.

Agree with OP.
A blobb taking down first gate without any siege means they could build 5 or more superior siege at inner gate… plus have supplies over for arrow carts to defend those siege.

Reborn Grijmblade.2396:

In future think carefully before feigning logic.

You started it by stating it ain’t possible. Give a lumberjack an axe and he eventually chew through your gate. Bringing logic to a game is stupid, that is why bashing in a gate with 100 people should be possible.

And I do think this thread is coming from a minority of the community. From weak servers that are getting dominated it seems.

The majority of the hardcore players in WvW want plain simple PvP, not SiegevSiege.

I liked zerg vs zerg, because a zerg was atleast easy to take down.

Reborn Grijmblade.2396:

Though this subject may have been covered at an earlier time, I would like to bring our attention back to it in order to see some semblance of progression and improvement in wvw.

Players being able to damage doors without the use of siege is counter-intuitive.
Not only does it encourage a lack of skill in gameplay, but also discourages others to upgrade and defend.

At the moment, we see masses of players surging through keeps and towers, only being moderately hampered if siege is already in place. Defenders feel overwhelmed and frustrated, which leads to the feeling that everything is futile. They will at this time allow their borderland to be taken, and return once the enemy has left the map.

With the introduction of world experience, ranks, and improved siege, there now needs to be more of a focus on making wvw enjoyable once again.

By removing player damage to doors, masses with be required to use siege at all times, which in turn means more players will require supply.
Camps will in turn hold more of a significance, and small groups will have a better chance at dispersing the attacking forces after destroying their siege.

Players as a whole will need to be more intelligent with siege placement, they will have to think before rushing into a battle, and finally realize that even an undefended fortification will require some effort.

So, Remove PvDoors.

Thank you.

Soooo, auto attacking with a siege weapon requires more skill than auto attacking with a hand held weapon because….?

It is up to the defender to defend that wall by any means necessary.

You are DEFENDING. An attacker will attack with any weapon they have available to win. Plain and simple.

MiLkZz.4789:

The majority of the hardcore players in WvW want plain simple PvP, not SiegevSiege.

I liked zerg vs zerg, because a zerg was atleast easy to take down.

And you’re arguing against something that has nothing to do with PvP and everything to do with players attacking an inanimate object that doesn’t fight back. Hence, PvDoor.
At least SiegevSiege is still players fighting each other (though not many of them), PvD is PvE in its most literal sense.

This post confuses me . You basicly want people to do zero damage at a gate with melee weaponary, and or spell casting weaponary. Lets review a possibilty for arguements sake. Say i wanted to take a few people with me (5 or 6) to go Ninja Cliffside in the northeast borderlands ( all pros know this spot ) and lets say we have enough supply to build a 1 ram or 1 cata to break said wall or gate . Then with the aid of 5 people an 1 person manning the ram or cata pounds on the door like normal. The whole ordeal pretty much drags on for a very long time . Ram does about 3000 to 4000 a swing (between 3 an 5 seconds)and each person does about 0 to 48 per button press ( taking for granted Skills 2 3 4 5 on the skill bar Just for the time being). the process is already a painfully slow one .. and God help u if its reinforced, as most of the time for us , it already is. To take a away a Person’s personal damage from a gate would really make zero sense.

Now i get kinda where you are going with this recomendation but the reasoning behind it is shoddy at best . I’d perfer to have invul defenders manning the gates an towers and unbreachable walls for zerg forces to crash against with little to no success only because being outmanned with little to no help to hold any of these places gets old real quick . I just had to simply accept the fact that its the nature of the beast. Nothing more nothing less.
Now for the Non condensending tone thats pouring out of my keyboard …. " i feel your frustrations , Most of the Servers who lack coverage an or masses of numbers to hold their own borderlands know this irritation all too well ." But having beef with a Zerg of 40 to 80 people that can pound on a gate for a few mins with zero seige ( its not seconds having been on both ends of this kind of fight) and break thur simply can because the resistance is so miniscule that it really wouldn’t matter if you stopped their personal damage or not . (40 supply) -4 people drop 1 ram , do that 3times an they get in faster . Its as simply as that.. I would perfer they used no seige at all.. atleast that would grant the Keep ,tower owners more time to get back an defend.
but maybe only the Hardcore of whats left still playing WvW know this is true.

however… if you have a video showing only the PVdooring taking place (no siege) and the gate melting in a crazy short time , i’d love to see it . No time elaspe videos though.
Until then ,leave well enough alone an concentrate on the real Crimes of Wvw.. Im sure you know already what they are .
With respect
Gwen

I am certain an axe or sword can break through a door, and the more upgraded the door is the longer it takes. I dont see a problem with pvd

Ethan Mccloud.3218:

This post confuses me . You basicly want people to do zero damage at a gate with melee weaponary, and or spell casting weaponary. Lets review a possibilty for arguements sake. Say i wanted to take a few people with me (5 or 6) to go Ninja Cliffside in the northeast borderlands ( all pros know this spot ) and lets say we have enough supply to build a 1 ram or 1 cata to break said wall or gate . Then with the aid of 5 people an 1 person manning the ram or cata pounds on the door like normal. The whole ordeal pretty much drags on for a very long time . Ram does about 3000 to 4000 a swing (between 3 an 5 seconds)and each person does about 0 to 48 per button press ( taking for granted Skills 2 3 4 5 on the skill bar Just for the time being). the process is already a painfully slow one .. and God help u if its reinforced, as most of the time for us , it already is. To take a away a Person’s personal damage from a gate would really make zero sense.

Now i get kinda where you are going with this recomendation but the reasoning behind it is shoddy at best . I’d perfer to have invul defenders manning the gates an towers and unbreachable walls for zerg forces to crash against with little to no success only because being outmanned with little to no help to hold any of these places gets old real quick . I just had to simply accept the fact that its the nature of the beast. Nothing more nothing less.
Now for the Non condensending tone thats pouring out of my keyboard …. " i feel your frustrations , Most of the Servers who lack coverage an or masses of numbers to hold their own borderlands know this irritation all too well ." But having beef with a Zerg of 40 to 80 people that can pound on a gate for a few mins with zero seige ( its not seconds having been on both ends of this kind of fight) and break thur simply can because the resistance is so miniscule that it really wouldn’t matter if you stopped their personal damage or not . (40 supply) -4 people drop 1 ram , do that 3times an they get in faster . Its as simply as that.. I would perfer they used no seige at all.. atleast that would grant the Keep ,tower owners more time to get back an defend.
but maybe only the Hardcore of whats left still playing WvW know this is true.

however… if you have a video showing only the PVdooring taking place (no siege) and the gate melting in a crazy short time , i’d love to see it . No time elaspe videos though.
Until then ,leave well enough alone an concentrate on the real Crimes of Wvw.. Im sure you know already what they are .
With respect
Gwen

Since you mentioned being Pro, let’s look at your faulty numbers first. Rams do 8k damage on a 5s cd, not 3-4k on a 3-5s timer. That’s basic ram on a normal gate. Those same 5 people could build a cata which has a much faster fire rate, and for gods sake you’re talking about 5 people…5 PEOPLE trying to take a large fortification. Unless you’re Seals, SAS or Spetzkittent shouldn’t happen fast at all. How fast do you think 5 people would have taken a keep in the middle ages? We who agree with the OP understand the need for playability, but some common sense would also be welcome at the table.

Next, I’ve watched and zerg of about 70 hit a non-reinforced gate and cut through it with no siege in 37s, I clocked it. A zerg of 80 doing only 50/dps each will do 4k/dps, 20k damage in the time it takes a ram to do 16K, and that’s only using autoattack and no other skills. It takes approx 20 hits with a ram to knock in a normal gate, that’s roughly 300k damage. That same 80 person zerg can do 300k in 75s with autoattack. There are very few PRO’s out there who will tell you their autoattack on a door only does 50 or less per hit. As long as those 80 people have an avg of 94dps, they can easily beat a 45s breakthrough. It doesn’t take a video or screen to do the math, but I’ll do my best to make sure I get one to you.

MiLkZz.4789:

If this idea gets implemented you will lose all the top guilds. They will move to a game that has PvP, they wouldn’t care how crappy their graphics are, as long as it has decent PvP.

Looks like Anet decided that PvP doesn’t belong in WvW, character skill should be used on mobs not players. WvW should be siege only they say. This is plain boring and requires no skill. It will become like chess with good graphics. And I don’t like to play chess, I like something that requires fast thinking, reflexes and good hand-eye coordination.

Then go play a FPS….

A 20-30 man zerg should not be melting seiged and upgraded towers and keep at the speed they are doing it in.

I thought this was a great troll from the op

You realize, if they’re stacking on the gate, a few AC’s will melt all of them.

And if they’re not, have guardians/mesmers/thieves use their projectile reflect abilities.

Don’t remove PvDoor.

If they get rid of PvDoors they’d need some other way to promote PvP fights around the keep. Personally, I like the idea of the door being invulnurable to player attacks until around %10 to %20 health.

In order to promote actual PvP while the doors or walls are being sieged introduce a siege tower into the game that players can use to scale walls. To prevent players from just using those and bypassing doors completely either make it so they can only be used while the doors are being sieged or give the keep lords some kind of invincibility buff that disappears once the doors or walls are destroyed.

Great post reborn.. 100% agree.. something needs to be done about the zerg vs. zerg nature.. make things more interesting and time consuming..

I don’t see the point to having players hit the doors, okay maybe it was significant when GW2 was still new and there was no real siege to use to get the doors down.
However now if the desire is to requires zergs to stop and use siege more, rather then steam roll through the door with masses of people, the idea is a good one.

Like Reborn said: Defenders don’t feel like defending is actually going to make in difference when the tower/keep get’s flipped immediately.
Regardless of how the outcome is, the concept and point remain the same.

There needs to be more to interest others to join up and do WvW, so far for those of us who are in WvW we don’t need much more incentive, however PvE seems to be what gets a lot of boosts and perks. – Yes the removal of culling was nice, but it wasn’t really a super upgrade.

Once again, all in all changes are definitely in order.

+agree its irksome to have zergs pvd anything down. On a paper tower you don’t even need siege if you zerg is big enough afterall.

I agree with the OP however, I would like this to go both ways. Defenders should not be able to attack through a door with their weapons or siege. Both fixes would go a long way in making WvWvW a more enjoyable experience.