Guild Wars 2

I would suggest a compromise. Allow private tags, but allow commanders to see other tags on the map. Commanders often work together even if they are separate guilds running private raids. Being able to see the pins is quite important for coordination purposes.

So let the commanders pinned up to be able to see other tags. But do let people pin private if they wish because there’s really no reason to make this tedious. Guilds already run private tag-less with a focus target on the driver. All you’re doing refusing private tags, forcing guilds to run tag-less, is by making it difficult for guilds/commanders to work together. This, is the very definition of “not healthy”.

As for making WvW more newbie friendly, pins are the least of your worries. This isn’t PvE, I know how it is with folks map hopping until they find an organized map to do meta with in PvE. In WvW, people don’t just come in to do 1 thing. People do roam and see if there are any action, if there are havoc groups, to see if there are objectives they can cap with a small group. People do a lot of things even if there are no pins up.

Also the best thing you can do to make WvW more newbie friendly is to remove cancer banners, aerial strikes, and balance classes so people don’t get 1 shot by Coalescence of Ruin. How about look into redesigning the desert borderlands to not be so big and tedious to get around, to remove gimmicks that bug people like cripple fields, lava spitting npc/objects, rocks that pop up and block you for no reason, etc.. How about fixing oasis event so it doesn’t cause zone-wide skill/warping lag? Imagine if Auric Basin’s meta event causing zone-wide skill lag, how soon would you guys fix this problem then?

Private commander pins are the least of your worries when it comes to things not healthy for the game.

Guilds are anti-wvw. They got their guild hall arenas and are still complaining about WvW. Hey guys its a massive war you don’t want others on the map too bad.

Devs are right that WvW is completely driven by commander tags. Instead of messing with tags they should add an option to toggle friendly green dots on the entire map, not just in local area.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

We’ve avoided adding this feature because we don’t believe it would be healthy for WvW. While we can appreciate why some players would want a feature like this, lots of other players only engage in WvW when, upon entering a WvW map, immediately see a commander icon to follow. We try and avoid adding features that can be used to intentionally exclude other players.

You guys really don’t talk to anyone that plays WvW seriously do you? The problem with your reasoning has already been addressed by multiple people who replied before me, so I will not comment further.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

We’ve avoided adding this feature because we don’t believe it would be healthy for WvW. While we can appreciate why some players would want a feature like this, lots of other players only engage in WvW when, upon entering a WvW map, immediately see a commander icon to follow. We try and avoid adding features that can be used to intentionally exclude other players.

This just another example of anet not knowing anything about wvw. It just proves that they don’t actually play wvw in any aspect. If they did they would k ow that the majority of wvw guilds run tagless, and have run tagless for a long time. The only thing they are doing by not adding a private tag is the are preventing the majority of WvWers from using the only thing that they have added to since launch that they didn’t screw up.

The raid structure in PVE provides challenging content for players and rewards them for working together in a closed environment. The only way to achieve the same kind of team work and attention to detail in WVW is to run a taglesss squad. Please allow us to have private tags so WVW fights do not resemble the blobs of people auto attacking PVE world bosses while afk. Providing a small quality of life improvement like a private tag would be a huge boon to the commanders, who help drive the game mode, and facilitate their play when they seek a challenge.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

We’ve avoided adding this feature because we don’t believe it would be healthy for WvW. While we can appreciate why some players would want a feature like this, lots of other players only engage in WvW when, upon entering a WvW map, immediately see a commander icon to follow. We try and avoid adding features that can be used to intentionally exclude other players.

Umm what do you and your developers know about what is healthy for WvW? You have killed off half the remaining players with HoT already.

Organized groups are already excluding other players by running targeted without tag.

Adding an invisible tag won’t exclude anymore players, just allows the groups to actually see what their teammates state is.

Bad excuse not to implement.

Also it now appears it’s not impossible for you guys to add this as your “choosing” not to do it, so please just add it.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

We’ve avoided adding this feature because we don’t believe it would be healthy for WvW. While we can appreciate why some players would want a feature like this, lots of other players only engage in WvW when, upon entering a WvW map, immediately see a commander icon to follow. We try and avoid adding features that can be used to intentionally exclude other players.

Exclud players? Everything you did since (at least) HoT onwards has excluded or alienated players

Tyler Bearce.3427:

We’ve avoided adding this feature because we don’t believe it would be healthy for WvW. While we can appreciate why some players would want a feature like this, lots of other players only engage in WvW when, upon entering a WvW map, immediately see a commander icon to follow. We try and avoid adding features that can be used to intentionally exclude other players.

Yet keeping the failed BL is healthy for WvW? Forcing WvW players to grind and grind and grind, just to get upgrades they already had before HoT is healthy for WvW? Introducing zero skill-required one-shot banners is healthy for WvW?

Not sure if you know this, but guilds raids have been excluding others already — for years — by running tagless and targetting the commander. Implementing something that makes their life easier isn’t going to change anything.

Chalk it up to another example of the devs having little to no idea how WvW is actually being played. Not that it matters much anymore considering the current decrepit state of WvW.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

We’ve avoided adding this feature because we don’t believe it would be healthy for WvW. While we can appreciate why some players would want a feature like this, lots of other players only engage in WvW when, upon entering a WvW map, immediately see a commander icon to follow. We try and avoid adding features that can be used to intentionally exclude other players.

Yet keeping the failed BL is healthy for WvW? Forcing WvW players to grind and grind and grind, just to get upgrades they already had before HoT is healthy for WvW? Introducing zero skill-required one-shot banners is healthy for WvW?

Not sure if you know this, but guilds raids have been excluding others already — for years — by running tagless and targetting the commander. Implementing something that makes their life easier isn’t going to change anything.

Chalk it up to another example of the devs having little to no idea how WvW is actually being played. Not that it matters much anymore considering the current decrepit state of WvW.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Idk, I rarely see pug commanders these days in wvw ( NA t4). But there are still guilds roaming, so I don’t think it would have a negative impact if ANet was adding a private tag for them. They aren’t tagging anyway, because they are looking for fights, not ppt.

edit: I could be wrong but I think we see there the biggest disconnection between Anet and us, players. While we see WvW as a open world pvp competitive mode, they keep seeing their creation as a “real players zerging/defending pve objectives” mode. Their competitive mode is spvp, wvw is just a friendly place to zerg stuff agains’t anonymous players.

Yeah tags aren’t good for WvW. Remove public tags altogether they are cancer. Just show all friendlies on the map at all times.. this would work much better.

LOL at all the Guild care bears coming in here to rage about being refused their own private tag. “Control T” works just as well. What’s the problem ?

I can understand when the servers were overflowing with players, people wanting their own private tags and to be honest, I would have had no problem with it back then. But with the state of the game mode being the way it is now, the Dev is right, a tag on the map is the only thing keeping casuals from immediately logging off right now. So SUCK IT UP and be prepared to be followed whenever you tag up.

And also that guild elitist garbage about not wanting to be followed by a bunch of “rally bots” is supposed to be a thing of the past soon from now anyway. Only one person will be able to rally off a downed going forward.

“Yeah Anet, why can’t we EXCLUDE players from running on a OPEN MAP, BOO HOO”

Seems to be the mentallity of this so-called “WvW guilds” posting here…

If you were a REAL WvW guild you would be able to run with or without extra people following you. Because people that have a clue about WvW can also teach others, which aparently you guys can’t… and that’s why you cry over here…

Yep… some Guilds are the nicest people out there, the ones who make an effort to teach others WvW tactics, how to use team speak and so on, that in general contribute to a positive community on their servers. But then there is the other kind… the toxic kind (and I see a lot of their members posting in this very thread) where “it’s all about me”.

What’s a REAL WvW guild exactly?

Wvw is what I played the game for. I’ve been in serious wvw guilds and run as a pug. These days mostly I pug (on TS), I don’t know, I just have more fun running autonomously. The invis option for commander tags would be great!

I know how frustrating it is when you’re running as a guild and begin collecting random players that don’t seem to understand or care that they’re following a guild group. Sometimes two guilds will be working together and want to pop a tag so they can easily spot each other’s location. I actually don’t know how much of this happens today, this is from back when we had borderlands that people wanted to go to.

As a pug, I don’t want to impose on a guild group or run across a map to check out the guild tags of the people on the pin.

Its sad, its like people in this forum are having to explain guilds and wvw to game developers. Guilds by their nature are exclusive, if you want to avoid having people excluded from taking part in activities occurring on the map, be it in wvw or pve, then you ought to get rid of guilds as well.

This lack of understanding does not bode well for a wvw update. I’ve pretty much stopped playing except for the odd foray into wvw usually ending in disappointment and misty watercolour memories of the good ole days. I’m still creeping on the forums in hopes that someone cracks a window in the anet offices and the fresh air gets them thinking clearly again, but alas…recycled air….

onoclea.5319:

Wvw is what I played the game for. I’ve been in serious wvw guilds and run as a pug. These days mostly I pug (on TS), I don’t know, I just have more fun running autonomously. The invis option for commander tags would be great!

I know how frustrating it is when you’re running as a guild and begin collecting random players that don’t seem to understand or care that they’re following a guild group. Sometimes two guilds will be working together and want to pop a tag so they can easily spot each other’s location. I actually don’t know how much of this happens today, this is from back when we had borderlands that people wanted to go to.

As a pug, I don’t want to impose on a guild group or run across a map to check out the guild tags of the people on the pin.

Its sad, its like people in this forum are having to explain guilds and wvw to game developers. Guilds by their nature are exclusive, if you want to avoid having people excluded from taking part in activities occurring on the map, be it in wvw or pve, then you ought to get rid of guilds as well.

This lack of understanding does not bode well for a wvw update. I’ve pretty much stopped playing except for the odd foray into wvw usually ending in disappointment and misty watercolour memories of the good ole days. I’m still creeping on the forums in hopes that someone cracks a window in the anet offices and the fresh air gets them thinking clearly again, but alas…recycled air….

I still think there should be a guild only tag. Give it a different icon like the mentor tags got. It would work for pve as well. It would just make it easier for guilds rally to do things on there own. This is guild wars and yet there is really no options for guilds to do there own thing if they throw up a tag. People see tags on the maps and they flock to them. In pve there are sometimes multiple tags on a map and sometimes more tags equal more confusion, even in wvw.

Its more of an easier way to let guilds do there own thing when they want to only do guild raids. Most guilds only raid a few hours and afterwards some people continue to play and others tag up to pug command when the raids are over.. Yes ctrl t works but you have to keep re-applying it if you have to call targets on other things. More of a QoL thing really..

Here is a pve SS.. Which tag am I suppose to follow I have no clue. Now if I had a guildie tagged up and only I could see the tag, since I’m in the same guild, I’d know exactly where to go on the map instead of asking which tag are we following..

So basically, you cant private tag because that would exclude other players and you want players to play how they want?

How is forced grouping any different? So forcing me to have other players is fair to me? You have given 1 questionable reason. Here is my reasons for private tags:

-if we are a smaller coordinated unit, we dont need rally bots following?
-WvW has server trolls and spies. Perhaps we dont want them tracking us by tags?
-perhaps there is already a pugmander on map. adding our tag would simply muddy the waters confusing new people who to follow? (we know how Anet hates confusing new players)

Why do you expect, each and every Guild to be responsible, to show players, how to play? All we want to do is run together with their guild, for 2-3 hours an evening, in coordination with the people we want to play as a team with, without having to do that with player; that won’t invest time in joining a guild, learn to play as a team or learn to run a proper build?

You have Community guilds and pugmanders for that, I’ve been there done that, it’s almost impossible to expect full cooperation and organize everyone in wvw, unless they’re already in a guild.

Azazel.5908:

“Yeah Anet, why can’t we EXCLUDE players from running on a OPEN MAP, BOO HOO”

Seems to be the mentallity of this so-called “WvW guilds” posting here…

If you were a REAL WvW guild you would be able to run with or without extra people following you. Because people that have a clue about WvW can also teach others, which aparently you guys can’t… and that’s why you cry over here…

how is not having people follow a group Excluding them from being on a map? They can still jump on the map, they can still flip sentries, camps, towers, even keeps.

Why should I be forced to allow others to follow me just because I am using a tool that allows my specific group to coordinate?

Honestly, My group is small, so we really dont need this feature. We tend to be the public tag on the map. We actually try to attract a few pugs to be supply carriers. They shouldn’t be forced on me though. I should have an option as well as them.

Extra people can rally the enemy, throw useless siege wasting supply, drag random NPCs over, lead an enemy zerg right to us. I can think of lots of reasons not being a public tag can be helpful or useful.

Yep.. Tags are baad bad bad. Show every friendly player on the map and there would be no problem. The tags wouldn’t be the only thing visable anymore. Toxic guilds crying about sharing a map with their allies well…one step at a time.

I don’t really care either way (leaning towards supporting private tags), but just to play devil’s advocate:

People generally want private tags because they don’t want random people following them and potentially causing a hindrance.

Anet are saying that facilitating this excludes players, and they want the game to be more inclusive.

I’m interpreting this as Anet wanting people to engage with and include the random players in the group, and that instead of treating them as annoyances you want to shake off, they’re hoping that players instead talk to them, teach them to be assets to the group.

Of course, some people are jerks: either the random player is an idiot that won’t listen, or the group are intolerant snobs who don’t want to help a newbie learn the ropes. Essentially making Anet’s vision of WvW players helping other players and singing kumbayah around a camp fire an unobtainable fantasy.

What amazes me, is how long and how many times this discussion has been brought up that after 3 plus years we get an answer, lololololol.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

We’ve avoided adding this feature because we don’t believe it would be healthy for WvW. While we can appreciate why some players would want a feature like this, lots of other players only engage in WvW when, upon entering a WvW map, immediately see a commander icon to follow. We try and avoid adding features that can be used to intentionally exclude other players.

And from on high, the almighty Anet has spoken:

Thou shall covet thy neighbors legendary
Thou shall PvE for it is good, and we sayeth so
Thou shall buyeth gems in thy gemstore shoppe
Thou shall giveth thy gold for the holy guild hall
Thou shalt NOT play thy way in WvW.

…..lest thee be smited.

Edited to add PvE

I’m excluded from ever getting legendary armor because its locked behind pve and raids… Wish anet would stop excluding me from getting legendary armor by making a way to be able to get it in the one game mode that I actually enjoy. WvW

Who needs stat changing legendary armor more? The pve’ers that mainly run full zerker everything or the wvw players that after the meta changes have to buy/craft more gear just to keep up?

whatever

You can make a tagless squad , but not a private commander tag. Have one person with commander tag make the squad. Then have the person leave and rejoin.

Thanks for taking time to post a reply Tyler, and welcome.

Please correct me if I’m wrong (and now I know you’ll all do that because I’m seldom right…) BUT

If I recall correctly, as a commander when I tag up I can set the squad to be public (hot join) or open request (request to join) or by invite only (you can only join if invited to by the squad/commander). Guild Wars News

This feature, implemented by ANET already allows for players to be excluded from joining the squad if the Commander desires. How is it better to see a tag you can’t join than not see it and be unaware?
I understand the attractive lure of tagging up – I do it myself occasionally and it does give a good focus for any roamers or pugs on the map, but I can’t see how a closed squad tag would cause any more of a “problem” than we can already have, while it would be helpful to the guild groups using it.

Perhaps a solution is to implement an option for a closed squad tag and make it a different shape icon (or just outline and non filled?) so people know whether they can join or not.

Lol at the responses who are agreeing with Anet.

1. if you actually put any time into WvW you would be aware that there are Pugmanders who do just that, they pugmand, they enjoy leading pugs and are a very important part of WvW that even the so called Elite commanders respect.
2. you would realize that most guild commanders take a turn leading the pugs to give said pugmanders a break.
3. if you want to run with a guild so bad then apply for that guild, don’t get all kitten because they want to do guild events.
4. if you actually read this thread you would have realized that no one is saying get rid of visible tags.
5. for those saying its mass battle, you are aware that even the army has special forces, different squads with different jobs in order for strategy and tactics to work.
6. those elite guilds are usually the ones making it possible for you to take whatever structure your working on without getting over run by a map blob, they break up the blob and prevent reinforcements so you can achieve your goal.

There is nothing wrong with private tags, the game has been played this way for 3 years it’s not going to change all of a sudden because guilds get a QoL feature.

I do think including features that promote elitism and exclusion are problematic. However, I also think the right to privacy is also a concern, and people do deserve to play with organization tools without having to cater to everyone; personally we don’t mind company, but truth is, and this is true outside of WvW too, but every time one tags up, you always get some people with entitlement complexes that are bitter you have gold to buy a tag and think you owe them the world. I think that kind of situation is bad.

Some people just like to help their server or faction in less overt ways, and honestly I think HoT has killed a lot of incentive for them as your development process has shown a clear bias towards zergs.

But on a more serious level, if it is true that you folks do want inclusion and not leave puggles like myself out, I would consider that you look at a few things that DO exclude people.

• Guild upgrade costs. They exclude a lot of people that want to actually play your game mode. I just don’t think WvW upgrades should require so much PvE. Also previously, even small groups of individuals could provide their personal guild buffs, however small and limited.

• Meanwhile, you have provided powerful weapons like dragon and turtle banners…. that are only accessible to guilds and are mainly anti-pug weapons. While they sure have counters, ’m sure your average pug has a good feeling when he/she gets one shot and wonders if they could do the same thing only to realize they need to join a guild with tons of resources.

I think these things are far, far more exclusionary and the later should be heavily nerfed, if you would like any degree of consistency.

As a whole, HoT has catered more to elitist and exclusionary content what with the whole pve grindgrindgrind mindset, very narrow means of acquiring various things, and with a hint of psuedo esportsism mixed in and this has spilled over to WvW, and nobody will support us because their viewpoint is pvecentric meaning WvW are always lazy because they will not go to PvE way. I understand if one’s views are only stuck to what they know, but personally I would never want anyone to be forced into WvW for anything. Obviously mode exclusive things like WvW achievements or fractal level 9001 should be only accessible in their own place but those things don’t affect anything outside of themselves. I just wish people would return the favor.

Basically, the game has become very much less about freedom aka “play how you want” as it was before. Now it seems a bit more about “Well, I went through that horrible grind, so you should too!”

But I would like to ask you sincerely to consider how valuable the WvW populace is. We* are not locusts that have endless demands, complaining over a lack of new content, devouring any new content, and considering the cycle while leaving behind a wake of boring and soulcrushing grinds for the rest of us. If you show me an actual WvW regular that will bash Arenanet because Living Story 45 isn’t out in 2 weeks yet after 44 and there aren’t any new outfits this week, I’ll pay you a copper. Because you know, constantly spitting out “novel” content isn’t actually a reasonable demand. Making sure your content actually works on the other hand, I think is. Seriously, when people go “oh my god, there’s no new content”, I respond with “What the hell do you even want? Can you even be happy?” And then I understood why treadmills are created.

As long as the game mode is fine, and there are conflicts to be had, it’ll be fine. That’s how WvW basically survived for 3 years on pretty much minimal content changes. And there’s certainly many other players that are not WvW’ers that are also willing to stay with you because they sincerely enjoy the content and not off to some race to be a special snowflake. I think these people will stick with you a bit longer than those that have come to prove that they have nothing better to do and will move on to the next game in 6 months. They’re not the ones buying at your gem store constantly, I’d hazard a guess.

*"we" used as a generalization, not in literally. It’s an opinion bros.

Tyler Bearce.3427:

We’ve avoided adding this feature because we don’t believe it would be healthy for WvW. While we can appreciate why some players would want a feature like this, lots of other players only engage in WvW when, upon entering a WvW map, immediately see a commander icon to follow.
….

Guilds have had private raids for years, yet there were always public raids as well because people play the mode differently and guild runs are very much a part of the WvWvW fabric. The same guild raids would coordinate with public tags and other private groups and there was a player made ecosystem.

…
We try and avoid adding features that can be used to intentionally exclude other players.

Isn’t the very idea of a guild exclusive, why have guilds at all then? Speaking of exclusivity, see the stuff added with HoT.

Azazel.5908:

Telling people not to play as they want (meaning, guilds asking players to leave) must be one the worst ideas I have ever seen getting support around here… What the hell…
I’m ALL for not implementing such a feature.
A lot of people on joining a WvW map will quickly leave it if they find no commander tags on the maps (specially now with low populations). Implementing such feature would make things EVEN WORSE.
Also, is borderline absurd that players are being excluded from game play because some “elitists” think they are the game mode’s owners…
If you want your tagless squad, just ask your squad leader to drop it and just rejoin.
There MUST BE a penalty (a.k.a not having a tag for themselves) for people who do this, otherwise in no time EVERYONE would do it, calling all sorts of “reasons” to justify it.
So NO for invisible tags.

-Above quote condense for spacing-
Guild runs aren’t the issue here because they’ve always been a part of WvWvW. I believe the issue is the mode is becoming less and less appealing to players for many reasons so public raids are dwindling because many times, those who want to tag up no longer see the value in it (or have quit) or they just can no longer get a decent force going. Also guild runs aren’t an implication that they own the mode, do what you want, they ask that you not actively follow and respect that they’d prefer to run as a group instead of being a beacon for every random person on a given map and having to manage that as some people actually do not enjoy this kind of play. Are some rude about it? Yes. And I don’t condone that, then again I don’t condone some of the abrasive attitudes of some pug commanders either.

Hexalot.8194:

Yep… some Guilds are the nicest people out there, the ones who make an effort to teach others WvW tactics, how to use team speak and so on, that in general contribute to a positive community on their servers. But then there is the other kind… the toxic kind (and I see a lot of their members posting in this very thread) where “it’s all about me”.

Guilds can have different goals and cultures, some have an open door policy and some are more restrictive in admission and are even tight knit, this has been the case in every MMO I’ve played. It’s not everybody’s job to educate you and I don’t know why you’d expect that. If your problem is that they’re not there for you, then the “it’s all about me” line is quite ironic.

Edit: spelling

ArchonWing.9480:

..snip..

^This nails it. Thanks Wing

seabhac.5346:

ArchonWing.9480:

..snip..

^This nails it. Thanks Wing

^^ Same. Way better said than I could have ever said it.

How many new stat PvE gear got added? A Bunch
How many new PvP amulets got added? A Bunch
How many new stat WvW gear from badge vendors got added? Zero

Excluding a game mode is better? Forcing us out of wvw to get things..

briggah.7910:

seabhac.5346:

ArchonWing.9480:

..snip..

^This nails it. Thanks Wing

^^ Same. Way better said than I could have ever said it.

^^^ Keep it going.

gennyt.3428:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

We’ve avoided adding this feature because we don’t believe it would be healthy for WvW. While we can appreciate why some players would want a feature like this, lots of other players only engage in WvW when, upon entering a WvW map, immediately see a commander icon to follow.
….

Guilds have had private raids for years, yet there were always public raids as well because people play the mode differently and guild runs are very much a part of the WvWvW fabric. The same guild raids would coordinate with public tags and other private groups and there was a player made ecosystem.

…
We try and avoid adding features that can be used to intentionally exclude other players.

Isn’t the very idea of a guild exclusive, why have guilds at all then? Speaking of exclusivity, see the stuff added with HoT.

Azazel.5908:

Telling people not to play as they want (meaning, guilds asking players to leave) must be one the worst ideas I have ever seen getting support around here… What the hell…
I’m ALL for not implementing such a feature.
A lot of people on joining a WvW map will quickly leave it if they find no commander tags on the maps (specially now with low populations). Implementing such feature would make things EVEN WORSE.
Also, is borderline absurd that players are being excluded from game play because some “elitists” think they are the game mode’s owners…
If you want your tagless squad, just ask your squad leader to drop it and just rejoin.
There MUST BE a penalty (a.k.a not having a tag for themselves) for people who do this, otherwise in no time EVERYONE would do it, calling all sorts of “reasons” to justify it.
So NO for invisible tags.

-Above quote condense for spacing-
Guild runs aren’t the issue here because they’ve always been a part of WvWvW. I believe the issue is the mode is becoming less and less appealing to players for many reasons so public raids are dwindling because many times, those who want to tag up no longer see the value in it (or have quit) or they just can no longer get a decent force going. Also guild runs aren’t an implication that they own the mode, do what you want, they ask that you not actively follow and respect that they’d prefer to run as a group instead of being a beacon for every random person on a given map and having to manage that as some people actually do not enjoy this kind of play. Are some rude about it? Yes. And I don’t condone that, then again I don’t condone some of the abrasive attitudes of some pug commanders either.

Hexalot.8194:

Yep… some Guilds are the nicest people out there, the ones who make an effort to teach others WvW tactics, how to use team speak and so on, that in general contribute to a positive community on their servers. But then there is the other kind… the toxic kind (and I see a lot of their members posting in this very thread) where “it’s all about me”.

Guilds can have different goals and cultures, some have an open door policy and some are more restrictive in admission and are even tight knit, this has been the case in every MMO I’ve played. It’s not everybody’s job to educate you and I don’t know why you’d expect that. If your problem is that they’re not there for you, then the “it’s all about me” line is quite ironic.

Edit: spelling

Eh… nobody educated me on how to play WvW. I educated myself via watching others play and in general just doing my own thing. Practice, practice makes perfect and all that blah. Nor do I think that it is the sworn duty of every Guild to educate every Pug that comes along. But there is nothing wrong with creating an environment where people don’t feel uncomfortable and unwanted on the map just because a bunch of morons who feel they own the borderlands due to having the largest guild comes along and wants to hog all the fights for themselves. And when people feel comfortable, chances are they pick up how to play the game on their own much like I did.

Let me put it another way. ANET clearly wants each player on every Server to be able to participate fully in just about everything WvW has to offer. So a guild gets together and are doing their raiding thing ?

No problem, have fun. But as long as your Raiding group decides to tag up and run around on the same Borderland that WE ALL PAID for, I personally feel that every casual, pug and “rally bot” out there has every right to follow you. Full stop. Chances are, we are all heading in the same direction anyway, which is to siege a keep or take part in an open world fight against another Zerg. And as stated by the Devs, “their policy” is for everyone to enjoy everything that WvW has to offer, and that apparently also includes following a Com, so to speak. You guys survived 3 years using “control T”. You won’t die if you have to continue for another three.

Hexalot.8194:

gennyt.3428:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

We’ve avoided adding this feature because we don’t believe it would be healthy for WvW. While we can appreciate why some players would want a feature like this, lots of other players only engage in WvW when, upon entering a WvW map, immediately see a commander icon to follow.
….

Guilds have had private raids for years, yet there were always public raids as well because people play the mode differently and guild runs are very much a part of the WvWvW fabric. The same guild raids would coordinate with public tags and other private groups and there was a player made ecosystem.

…
We try and avoid adding features that can be used to intentionally exclude other players.

Isn’t the very idea of a guild exclusive, why have guilds at all then? Speaking of exclusivity, see the stuff added with HoT.

Azazel.5908:

Telling people not to play as they want (meaning, guilds asking players to leave) must be one the worst ideas I have ever seen getting support around here… What the hell…
I’m ALL for not implementing such a feature.
A lot of people on joining a WvW map will quickly leave it if they find no commander tags on the maps (specially now with low populations). Implementing such feature would make things EVEN WORSE.
Also, is borderline absurd that players are being excluded from game play because some “elitists” think they are the game mode’s owners…
If you want your tagless squad, just ask your squad leader to drop it and just rejoin.
There MUST BE a penalty (a.k.a not having a tag for themselves) for people who do this, otherwise in no time EVERYONE would do it, calling all sorts of “reasons” to justify it.
So NO for invisible tags.

-Above quote condense for spacing-
Guild runs aren’t the issue here because they’ve always been a part of WvWvW. I believe the issue is the mode is becoming less and less appealing to players for many reasons so public raids are dwindling because many times, those who want to tag up no longer see the value in it (or have quit) or they just can no longer get a decent force going. Also guild runs aren’t an implication that they own the mode, do what you want, they ask that you not actively follow and respect that they’d prefer to run as a group instead of being a beacon for every random person on a given map and having to manage that as some people actually do not enjoy this kind of play. Are some rude about it? Yes. And I don’t condone that, then again I don’t condone some of the abrasive attitudes of some pug commanders either.

Hexalot.8194:

Yep… some Guilds are the nicest people out there, the ones who make an effort to teach others WvW tactics, how to use team speak and so on, that in general contribute to a positive community on their servers. But then there is the other kind… the toxic kind (and I see a lot of their members posting in this very thread) where “it’s all about me”.

Guilds can have different goals and cultures, some have an open door policy and some are more restrictive in admission and are even tight knit, this has been the case in every MMO I’ve played. It’s not everybody’s job to educate you and I don’t know why you’d expect that. If your problem is that they’re not there for you, then the “it’s all about me” line is quite ironic.

Edit: spelling

Eh… nobody educated me on how to play WvW. I educated myself via watching others play and in general just doing my own thing. Practice, practice makes perfect and all that blah. Nor do I think that it is the sworn duty of every Guild to educate every Pug that comes along. But there is nothing wrong with creating an environment where people don’t feel uncomfortable and unwanted on the map just because a bunch of morons who feel they own the borderlands due to having the largest guild comes along and wants to hog all the fights for themselves. And when people feel comfortable, chances are they pick up how to play the game on their own much like I did.

Let me put it another way. ANET clearly wants each player on every Server to be able to participate fully in just about everything WvW has to offer. So a guild gets together and are doing their raiding thing ?

No problem, have fun. But as long as your Raiding group decides to tag up and run around on the same Borderland that WE ALL PAID for, I personally feel that every casual, pug and “rally bot” out there has every right to follow you. Full stop. Chances are, we are all heading in the same direction anyway, which is to siege a keep or take part in an open world fight against another Zerg. And as stated by the Devs, “their policy” is for everyone to enjoy everything that WvW has to offer, and that apparently also includes following a Com, so to speak. You guys survived 3 years using “control T”. You won’t die if you have to continue for another three.

Yeah….and I guess everyone who is at your job makes the same amount is you because you all are equally skilled…..

The reality is, people in guilds tend to be like-minded individuals and want to play in their like minded way. Whether that is roaming, scouting, defending, zerg busting or pugmanding.

What you are saying…is basically screw all that….you HAVE to tag up if you want to play a certain way and anyone should play the way you want. That is the EXACT thinking that Anet has and is driving the game into the dirt.

People join guilds and/or groups because they are playing with people who think the same way and want to play a certain way. Everyone should be allowed to play the want without forcing someone to not play the way they want. I.E. a guild raid shouldn’t be REQUIRED to tag up…and you should be FORCED to play a certain build and join a guild….or to roam…or whatever…. the problem is anet keeps trying to force things instead of supporting what already exists…

MasterD.4790:

Hexalot.8194:

gennyt.3428:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

We’ve avoided adding this feature because we don’t believe it would be healthy for WvW. While we can appreciate why some players would want a feature like this, lots of other players only engage in WvW when, upon entering a WvW map, immediately see a commander icon to follow.
….

Guilds have had private raids for years, yet there were always public raids as well because people play the mode differently and guild runs are very much a part of the WvWvW fabric. The same guild raids would coordinate with public tags and other private groups and there was a player made ecosystem.

…
We try and avoid adding features that can be used to intentionally exclude other players.

Isn’t the very idea of a guild exclusive, why have guilds at all then? Speaking of exclusivity, see the stuff added with HoT.

Azazel.5908:

Telling people not to play as they want (meaning, guilds asking players to leave) must be one the worst ideas I have ever seen getting support around here… What the hell…
I’m ALL for not implementing such a feature.
A lot of people on joining a WvW map will quickly leave it if they find no commander tags on the maps (specially now with low populations). Implementing such feature would make things EVEN WORSE.
Also, is borderline absurd that players are being excluded from game play because some “elitists” think they are the game mode’s owners…
If you want your tagless squad, just ask your squad leader to drop it and just rejoin.
There MUST BE a penalty (a.k.a not having a tag for themselves) for people who do this, otherwise in no time EVERYONE would do it, calling all sorts of “reasons” to justify it.
So NO for invisible tags.

-Above quote condense for spacing-
Guild runs aren’t the issue here because they’ve always been a part of WvWvW. I believe the issue is the mode is becoming less and less appealing to players for many reasons so public raids are dwindling because many times, those who want to tag up no longer see the value in it (or have quit) or they just can no longer get a decent force going. Also guild runs aren’t an implication that they own the mode, do what you want, they ask that you not actively follow and respect that they’d prefer to run as a group instead of being a beacon for every random person on a given map and having to manage that as some people actually do not enjoy this kind of play. Are some rude about it? Yes. And I don’t condone that, then again I don’t condone some of the abrasive attitudes of some pug commanders either.

Hexalot.8194:

Yep… some Guilds are the nicest people out there, the ones who make an effort to teach others WvW tactics, how to use team speak and so on, that in general contribute to a positive community on their servers. But then there is the other kind… the toxic kind (and I see a lot of their members posting in this very thread) where “it’s all about me”.

Guilds can have different goals and cultures, some have an open door policy and some are more restrictive in admission and are even tight knit, this has been the case in every MMO I’ve played. It’s not everybody’s job to educate you and I don’t know why you’d expect that. If your problem is that they’re not there for you, then the “it’s all about me” line is quite ironic.

Edit: spelling

Eh… nobody educated me on how to play WvW. I educated myself via watching others play and in general just doing my own thing. Practice, practice makes perfect and all that blah. Nor do I think that it is the sworn duty of every Guild to educate every Pug that comes along. But there is nothing wrong with creating an environment where people don’t feel uncomfortable and unwanted on the map just because a bunch of morons who feel they own the borderlands due to having the largest guild comes along and wants to hog all the fights for themselves. And when people feel comfortable, chances are they pick up how to play the game on their own much like I did.

Let me put it another way. ANET clearly wants each player on every Server to be able to participate fully in just about everything WvW has to offer. So a guild gets together and are doing their raiding thing ?

No problem, have fun. But as long as your Raiding group decides to tag up and run around on the same Borderland that WE ALL PAID for, I personally feel that every casual, pug and “rally bot” out there has every right to follow you. Full stop. Chances are, we are all heading in the same direction anyway, which is to siege a keep or take part in an open world fight against another Zerg. And as stated by the Devs, “their policy” is for everyone to enjoy everything that WvW has to offer, and that apparently also includes following a Com, so to speak. You guys survived 3 years using “control T”. You won’t die if you have to continue for another three.

Yeah….and I guess everyone who is at your job makes the same amount is you because you all are equally skilled…..

The reality is, people in guilds tend to be like-minded individuals and want to play in their like minded way. Whether that is roaming, scouting, defending, zerg busting or pugmanding.

What you are saying…is basically screw all that….you HAVE to tag up if you want to play a certain way and anyone should play the way you want. That is the EXACT thinking that Anet has and is driving the game into the dirt.

People join guilds and/or groups because they are playing with people who think the same way and want to play a certain way. Everyone should be allowed to play the want without forcing someone to not play the way they want. I.E. a guild raid shouldn’t be REQUIRED to tag up…and you should be FORCED to play a certain build and join a guild….or to roam…or whatever…. the problem is anet keeps trying to force things instead of supporting what already exists…

Now you’ve lost me. Where did I say YOU HAVE to tag up ?

IF you want to play the way you want with people who think the same way you do, then don’t tag up. ANET is basically saying here that they brought commander tags into WvW so that EVERYONE benefits from their presence on the Map… not just select Guilds. If you don’t get what their aim is here, I don’t know what else to say…

Ok, let’s put this in perspective here. Imagine you were at an amusement park. You see a family of about 10 people going from ride to ride as a group. Do you go and just randomly start following that group? I mean, you all paid to get into the amusement park, and that family doesn’t own it, after all. Of course you don’t, because that would be rude and a little bit creepy. You might go up and strike up a conversation with them, and possibly get invited to go from ride to ride with their group, but you certainly don’t have the right to just invite yourself to their group.

The same concept applies in WvW. There are commanders that do tag up and run public groups. There are also groups that prefer to run private. Chances are, it’s the same groups. They might be public one day, and private another when a different commander is running a public group. All that’s being requested is a tag to be used when running a private group. That’s not an unreasonable or self entitled request.

Furthermore, guilds running private groups isn’t something that would suddenly happen if private tags were introduced. Guilds have been running private groups for years, and it’s actually pretty commonplace.

Believe me, as someone that’s primarily led public groups, there’s no real need to act as though all pugs can handle is being treated like a hamster on a wheel. To act as though all they can comprehend is “follow the blue dorito” is pretty insulting and degrading.

The reason people are logging out has very little to do with any tags, public or private. People are logging out because they’re unsatisfied customers, and are frustrated and fed up with the state the product is in. It’s a bit disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

@ Hexalot

This topic is a request for private tags, which you are against because open raids are drying up. You’d deny people organizational tools for activities that they will do anyway. It just seems so bitter and mean spirited lawl.

Hexalot.8194:

MasterD.4790:

Hexalot.8194:

gennyt.3428:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

We’ve avoided adding this feature because we don’t believe it would be healthy for WvW. While we can appreciate why some players would want a feature like this, lots of other players only engage in WvW when, upon entering a WvW map, immediately see a commander icon to follow.
….

Guilds have had private raids for years, yet there were always public raids as well because people play the mode differently and guild runs are very much a part of the WvWvW fabric. The same guild raids would coordinate with public tags and other private groups and there was a player made ecosystem.

…
We try and avoid adding features that can be used to intentionally exclude other players.

Isn’t the very idea of a guild exclusive, why have guilds at all then? Speaking of exclusivity, see the stuff added with HoT.

Azazel.5908:

Telling people not to play as they want (meaning, guilds asking players to leave) must be one the worst ideas I have ever seen getting support around here… What the hell…
I’m ALL for not implementing such a feature.
A lot of people on joining a WvW map will quickly leave it if they find no commander tags on the maps (specially now with low populations). Implementing such feature would make things EVEN WORSE.
Also, is borderline absurd that players are being excluded from game play because some “elitists” think they are the game mode’s owners…
If you want your tagless squad, just ask your squad leader to drop it and just rejoin.
There MUST BE a penalty (a.k.a not having a tag for themselves) for people who do this, otherwise in no time EVERYONE would do it, calling all sorts of “reasons” to justify it.
So NO for invisible tags.

-Above quote condense for spacing-
Guild runs aren’t the issue here because they’ve always been a part of WvWvW. I believe the issue is the mode is becoming less and less appealing to players for many reasons so public raids are dwindling because many times, those who want to tag up no longer see the value in it (or have quit) or they just can no longer get a decent force going. Also guild runs aren’t an implication that they own the mode, do what you want, they ask that you not actively follow and respect that they’d prefer to run as a group instead of being a beacon for every random person on a given map and having to manage that as some people actually do not enjoy this kind of play. Are some rude about it? Yes. And I don’t condone that, then again I don’t condone some of the abrasive attitudes of some pug commanders either.

Hexalot.8194:

Yep… some Guilds are the nicest people out there, the ones who make an effort to teach others WvW tactics, how to use team speak and so on, that in general contribute to a positive community on their servers. But then there is the other kind… the toxic kind (and I see a lot of their members posting in this very thread) where “it’s all about me”.

Guilds can have different goals and cultures, some have an open door policy and some are more restrictive in admission and are even tight knit, this has been the case in every MMO I’ve played. It’s not everybody’s job to educate you and I don’t know why you’d expect that. If your problem is that they’re not there for you, then the “it’s all about me” line is quite ironic.

Edit: spelling

Eh… nobody educated me on how to play WvW. I educated myself via watching others play and in general just doing my own thing. Practice, practice makes perfect and all that blah. Nor do I think that it is the sworn duty of every Guild to educate every Pug that comes along. But there is nothing wrong with creating an environment where people don’t feel uncomfortable and unwanted on the map just because a bunch of morons who feel they own the borderlands due to having the largest guild comes along and wants to hog all the fights for themselves. And when people feel comfortable, chances are they pick up how to play the game on their own much like I did.

Let me put it another way. ANET clearly wants each player on every Server to be able to participate fully in just about everything WvW has to offer. So a guild gets together and are doing their raiding thing ?

No problem, have fun. But as long as your Raiding group decides to tag up and run around on the same Borderland that WE ALL PAID for, I personally feel that every casual, pug and “rally bot” out there has every right to follow you. Full stop. Chances are, we are all heading in the same direction anyway, which is to siege a keep or take part in an open world fight against another Zerg. And as stated by the Devs, “their policy” is for everyone to enjoy everything that WvW has to offer, and that apparently also includes following a Com, so to speak. You guys survived 3 years using “control T”. You won’t die if you have to continue for another three.

Yeah….and I guess everyone who is at your job makes the same amount is you because you all are equally skilled…..

The reality is, people in guilds tend to be like-minded individuals and want to play in their like minded way. Whether that is roaming, scouting, defending, zerg busting or pugmanding.

What you are saying…is basically screw all that….you HAVE to tag up if you want to play a certain way and anyone should play the way you want. That is the EXACT thinking that Anet has and is driving the game into the dirt.

People join guilds and/or groups because they are playing with people who think the same way and want to play a certain way. Everyone should be allowed to play the want without forcing someone to not play the way they want. I.E. a guild raid shouldn’t be REQUIRED to tag up…and you should be FORCED to play a certain build and join a guild….or to roam…or whatever…. the problem is anet keeps trying to force things instead of supporting what already exists…

Now you’ve lost me. Where did I say YOU HAVE to tag up ?

IF you want to play the way you want with people who think the same way you do, then don’t tag up. ANET is basically saying here that they brought commander tags into WvW so that EVERYONE benefits from their presence on the Map… not just select Guilds. If you don’t get what their aim is here, I don’t know what else to say…

Right that’s what I’m saying. They don’t right now, but if there was an option to tag up but not show it to everyone it would be a nice QoL improvement.

I know that was Ane’ts intent overall with the WvW game mode, but that’s not how it shook out in reality. This is the exact problem with Anet right now. They don’t understand how people are utilizing their own game modes.

I understand their aim, it is however, NOT how ALL people play WvW…if you don’t get that…I don’t know what to tell you.

You basically saying play all care bear happy go lucky everyone gets a long lets sing camp fire songs together. Not everyone enjoys that. I prefer to play with people who are competitive and at least somewhat serious about playing pvp at a high level, I don’t think that it’s being rude that I would like to play with those kinds of people and let people who want to be more casual play with their pugmander or with the people they want to play with. We both paid for this game and we are both entitled to play the way we want, for now, yes we all use the little target tag and don’t tag up unless we want to pugmand. MY POINT is that anet making this QoL change is not EXCLUDING anyone…we ALREADY do it now. It also isn’t MAKING anyone play together, so essentially adding this feature is just making life a little easier for people. There is literally NO GOOD REASON to not implement this feature. It’s already happening now, why not just be supportive instead of divisive?

This is Finality from GoF. I’ve commanded for three years. I’ve done a large amount of militia (open raid) commanding and also some private ones, though that is probably 5% of my total commanding.

Phantom, Archon and so many others are right here. By the same logic by some people here, EVERYONE should be able to join in a 5 player dungeon because, well, they paid for the game! Also, maps shouldn’t have a limit for world events, you’re excluding people that paid for the game, etc. Frankly, it’s not an argument that stands up.

To Archon’s point, please take an internal look and figure out: Has what you’ve done so far working? You have not supported smaller dedicated groups due to balance issues, banners, guild upgrades and even more indirectly nerfs to stability. How’s that working? Is providing access to a commander tag to everyone improved participation in WvWvW? Can you show that it would reduce numbers if private tags were an option? By contract you’ve lost some of the more dedicated players who are fed up with a lack of support. It seems your overall numbers are vastly down since HOT.

Maybe, listen to your customers who have historically played day in and day out.

gennyt.3428:

@ Hexalot

This topic is a request for private tags, which you are against because open raids are drying up. You’d deny people organizational tools for activities that they will do anyway. It just seems so bitter and mean spirited lawl.

Well… when I first posted in this thread, I did state that I wouldn’t have objected to private tags in the early days when the Servers were still full. But now WvW is a dying mode (and yes ANET is fully to blame here) and I fully understand and agree with ANET taking whatever measures they can to stop the ship from sinking further. And like it or not, a commander tag on the maps is the one thing that will stop Pugs from giving up completely. Furthermore I honestly don’t see the big deal about not tagging up when you want to run private. Yes I understand it’s a QoL thing in not having to “control t” all the time, but at this point I can’t agree with helping send WvW to the bottom over “quality of life”.

I have been in zergs where a Guild commander running tag suddenly takes it down while telling everyone they are now running a private raid thus whoever is not a member, “thanks for following and good bye”. In a case like that, all us pugs had no problem going our merry way.

The point is its “worlds vs worlds” not “my guild should be catered to”. It’s correct in that they intend “zerg” fighting. That’s the game. Use Ctrl-T if your gunna be anti-WvW.

Edit: Want a good clean PvF here no name calling.

“Would it be possible to implement a toggle for a Commander Tag so that it would be visible only to your squad/party? (Or maybe just squad/party and other commanders) Would love this for roaming/guild groups that don’t want to be visible on the map, yet still have some order without having to be diligent with Ctrl+T on the leader.
It would be very much appreciated.
Thoughts/Comments?
Cheers,
Max”

This does not come across as being a cry-baby. Calling people names on the other hand . . .

Entenkommando.5208:

1 dead “noob” leaded to 5 enemies alive.

If there only were players on the borders to see how this affects fights now…

That was changed recently to rallying only 1 now, right? So that is a reduction in “noobishness” by 80%.
Funny thing btw, if you watch public fights usually one of the first people dying will not be a nameless noob but somone with a well known guild tag .

The point is – in the past even when we had different guilds + publics on the map, they used to work together. Nowadays, guilds that are on the map and often do their “own thing” will get attacked as this is behaviour is seen as anti-social. Guilds with a good rep got no problem when they voice their interest to run on their own – often combined with a community agreement that a certain tag color equals a guild ran and should be left alone. Also, with a good rep people will ask for permission if the guild run is open or not if there is no public com and are willing to repsect the wishes of the guild if its closed.

So it`s up to you guild if your social skill is on par.

Most often you can also avoid that by choosing one member of the guild to run the public or show in other ways that you participate in the community.

Having a privat invisible tag just makes it even more comfortable to be not integrated in the community. We already nowadays got guild runs that do not tag, but once you got a big inc and the map commander knows there are enough people but he cannot see them – he knows a guild is running around and he sees that the guild is not interested to work with him – which again gets the guild a bad rep.
So I agree that an invisble guild tag is an exlcuding feature.

displayname.8315:

The point is its “worlds vs worlds” not “my guild should be catered to”. It’s correct in that they intend “zerg” fighting. That’s the game. Use Ctrl-T if your gunna be anti-WvW.

Edit: Want a good clean PvF here no name calling.

There is a dedicated PvF forum, this is not the place. It’s pretty obvious you know little about actual WvW, and very clear that you know nothing about what “they” intend. Posting this kind of comment really doesn’t make you relevant to the discussion nor the issues at hand.

Naracion.6597:

Tyler Bearce.3427:

We’ve avoided adding this feature because we don’t believe it would be healthy for WvW. While we can appreciate why some players would want a feature like this, lots of other players only engage in WvW when, upon entering a WvW map, immediately see a commander icon to follow. We try and avoid adding features that can be used to intentionally exclude other players.

The people asking for the private tags are the people who don’t want pugs following them. We aren’t asking for you to remove the current commander tags(keep them as they are so pugs can follow them). I think having pugs follow a group that doesn’t want them might be more frustrating situation for both the pugs and the group than giving the option for squad tags.

((Then experiment with the commander/squad features, there is a way to do it, but its a bit… convoluted ))

I like the inclusive feature though of forcing tags to be shown to all. I just make a note to get them to go into the guild’s teamspeak or the server’s teamspeak. Otherwise, they don’t join squad in the guild WvW runs. Although, sometimes, we invite people to guild just cause they run with us like that as pugs and are on TS with us, thereby including everyone.

SIDE NOTE:
Get with your server people, and ask them what colors represent what. Some use purple for havoc groups, while GvG groups are yellow tagged, while Blue tag is zerg groups, and red tag are defender groups. Its a whole lot better than just doing what I said above about locking the squad.

Hexalot.8194:

gennyt.3428:

@ Hexalot

This topic is a request for private tags, which you are against because open raids are drying up. You’d deny people organizational tools for activities that they will do anyway. It just seems so bitter and mean spirited lawl.

Well… when I first posted in this thread, I did state that I wouldn’t have objected to private tags in the early days when the Servers were still full. But now WvW is a dying mode (and yes ANET is fully to blame here) and I fully understand and agree with ANET taking whatever measures they can to stop the ship from sinking further. And like it or not, a commander tag on the maps is the one thing that will stop Pugs from giving up completely. Furthermore I honestly don’t see the big deal about not tagging up when you want to run private. Yes I understand it’s a QoL thing in not having to “control t” all the time, but at this point I can’t agree with helping send WvW to the bottom over “quality of life”.

I have been in zergs where a Guild commander running tag suddenly takes it down while telling everyone they are now running a private raid thus whoever is not a member, “thanks for following and good bye”. In a case like that, all us pugs had no problem going our merry way.

I don’t get your logic. The tag in your story chose to have an open raid then later switched to private and you had no issue with that. It wouldn’t be any different than now, except that when that commander closed his raid, he’d have a tag that select people can see and “ctrl+t” could serve other purposes, it takes nothing from you. A private tag isn’t going to magically change what people want out of their play time some like pugmanding.

Anet giving the middle finger to guild folks is just another reason why commander tags will continue to disappear as pugmanders tend to have their guild behind them (that’s how some got started and thats why some still play). All this is quite entertaining though, given that pug and guild groups are equally part of the WvWvW experience and have always been. Just gonna sit here, sip this wine and bask in the glow of the flames from this wreck of a game mode.