Guild Wars 2

Today with my bunker ranger (21k HP and 3.2k Armor) I casted one barrage from 1500 range (nothing hit me there except retailation). I was at full life before and I barely survived that ONE! skill use. It eat away 19k of my life with one single skill.

I remember after the patch retal hit for around 220 now its back to 300-400. Why did you undo this change? Or did I just meet a condition guardian or engi when getting hit for the 220?

Retal is still hitting alot too hard in zerg vs zerg.
Easy solution. 1 sec ICD or at least make it 0.5 sec ICD so that you cant kill yourself in 5 sec.
For me the solution to this problem: don’t ever use longbow any more. I won’t get many badges that way as other classes do but at least I survive. I rather go melee – I will survive it easier than staying at 1500 range using barrage.

This has to be changed. Really.

50% nerf was a 50%~ nerf (I’m down from 650~ to 370~), some of us just have a lot of power (Which affects ret. damage).

And yeah. If you fire a barrage into a zerg of people, you’re bound to die from retaliation since one of the Guardians main shouts gives it out. Get over it.

Get smart, stop being a baddy, things will change. Stop requesting nerfs.

Everybody knows Confusion and Retaliation are poorly designed and not OK. Only baddies defend them!

Your claim that AE effects shouldn’t be used on large groups of people is quite interesting, please elaborate.

Honestly, never had much of a problem with retaliation, unless I have low health.

Maybe paying attention to the fuzzy stuff you character has around your head ( purple or brown ). This might help staying alive.

It was never 650 – at least not the last months. It was not nerfed by 50%. Confusion was nerfed. Retaliation was not nerfed at all. It’s as it was before the patch from 30. April.

The problem is not weak random zergs. It’s guild zergs who know what they do. They will stack might + retal on the zerg.
It is bad design if one single skill kills you by a passive damage retaliation. I cannot stop the skill, dodging won’t work, blocking won’t work. There is absolutely nothing I can do except not using my strongest AoE skill.
There is two ways to stop this: ICD or make barrage instead of 12×5 hits (60 hits for retal) 3×5 huge hits. That way I wouldn’t get myself killed but people would complain by getting hit by huge AoE numbers. On the other hand it would be the same as meteor shower. Few huge hits which don’t get you killed by retal.

Engineer has the same problem with many weak hits.
ICD is the only real solution to this. 0.5 sec CD means you can still get hit by 700 damage per second. That is good damage and should be strong enough for retal.

Cosmic.6047:

Maybe paying attention to the fuzzy stuff you character has around your head ( purple or brown ). This might help staying alive.

You cannot stop once barrage is out. Once you started it —> 60 (possible) x 370 dmg returned to you.
You can jump around, dodge, run away --> you will (almost) die. Simple as that.

Another solution: let me block/dodge retal and I’m fine

BLKNovember.5620:

Honestly, never had much of a problem with retaliation, unless I have low health.

Different story for classes with fast or multiple attacks.

Example:
Despite doing the same ballpark damage

1 backstab = 1 retaliation proc = 370
1 unload = 8 retaliation procs = 2960

1 overcharged shot = 1 retaliation proc = 370
1 grenade barrage = 8 retaliation procs = 2960
(with area retaliation, grenade barrage can even return 24 retaliation procs for 8880)

Syktek.7912:

Get smart, stop being a baddy, things will change. Stop requesting nerfs.

This. AoE doesn’t mean you get to beat 5 people by yourself for free. Retaliation is a boon, smart players will do the following.

- Wait for it to run out before using AoE.
- Have a necro use Corrupt Boon/Spinal Shivers/Well of Corruption
- Have a mesmer use Mind Stab/Null Field/Arcane Thievery
- Equip a Nullification weapon

The rangers one shotting themselves on retaliation are the glass cannon I just want to hit everything for big numbers without thinking builds, and frankly they deserve to die.

That damage you state is an exageration. I have a ranger and use longbow and sure, it hurts, but maybe 8k-10k max. You must have been hit by something else. The longbow AOE timer is long so you just heal and use it again. Retaliation can be troublesome but usually only in big zerg fights where it is tough to keep track of where the damage is coming from. Especially when suffering from skill lag.

That said I would change Retaliation and Confusion, and not how ANET is doing it. For instance, Retaliation is a fixed amount no matter how much or how little damage you do (I assume because it saves on processing). It’d be much better if it was a percent of the damage taken * some power modifier.
Confusion is just dumb, you never want to discourage ability use. My only re-think on this is that maybe it should cause a skill ‘fumble’ (not all onboard on this, just something to consider). Ona fumble, the weapon skill doesn’t fire but you get the timer. The chance to fumble could be based on how many stacks you have, with 5 stacks the max (many further changes would be needed). And by skills I mean weapon skills, not selected skills. A weapon skill failure just makes you auto-attack. You should always be able to use your heal and selected abilities. Its basically a randomized dps reduction until you remove it.

Retaliation only had a33% nerf btw

frostshade.3617:

Retaliation only had a33% nerf btw

Oh? That explains it. Reason I put 50%~ in my post, as I wasn’t too sure. As I knew it was under 50%.

Though before hand, the highest I got was mid 600s in damage (With might stacks) and now it’s high 300s (With stacks).

BrockMcCleery.9562:

That damage you state is an exageration. I have a ranger and use longbow and sure, it hurts, but maybe 8k-10k max. You must have been hit by something else. The longbow AOE timer is long so you just heal and use it again. Retaliation can be troublesome but usually only in big zerg fights where it is tough to keep track of where the damage is coming from. Especially when suffering from skill lag.

That said I would change Retaliation and Confusion, and not how ANET is doing it. For instance, Retaliation is a fixed amount no matter how much or how little damage you do (I assume because it saves on processing). It’d be much better if it was a percent of the damage taken * some power modifier.
Confusion is just dumb, you never want to discourage ability use. My only re-think on this is that maybe it should cause a skill ‘fumble’ (not all onboard on this, just something to consider). Ona fumble, the weapon skill doesn’t fire but you get the timer. The chance to fumble could be based on how many stacks you have, with 5 stacks the max (many further changes would be needed). And by skills I mean weapon skills, not selected skills. A weapon skill failure just makes you auto-attack. You should always be able to use your heal and selected abilities. Its basically a randomized dps reduction until you remove it.

Weakness already exists really op for mitigation but fairly unknown ontop of the endurance recharge reduction has a chance to cause a reduced damage attack

Honestly, retal and confuse were not hard to deal with before the patch and are very easy to handle now, but DPS are still complaining? Wow.

frostshade.3617:

Retaliation only had a33% nerf btw

Yes it had but it was reverted. It now is back to what it was before 30. April. That is what bothers me.

And I’m in no way a glass cannon spec. Read my first post. I’m bunker and I still got almost killed by it. I was pretty much in the last row of our zerg and the enemy zerg came into our direction. While it is possible that I got hit by something else I know that the retal often had me almost killed by using only barrage. That’s not the first time this happens to me.
Ranger’s AoE skills are very limited. There is AoE and traps – for traps you have to specc for it to be able to throw them. So there is only Barrage left. And I cannot use it – even as bunker?
That is bad design really. In 1v1 I have no problems with retal. I can just wait until it ran out or whatever. In a zerg thats not possible. I can rely on others to remove the boons of the enemy zerg but well that won’t work every time.
Retal needs an ICD. That is my opinion.

Midnightjade.3520:

Honestly, retal and confuse were not hard to deal with before the patch and are very easy to handle now, but DPS are still complaining? Wow.

You should read my first post. I am using a bunker build. I’m the opposite of GC/DPS. And confusion is skill based. You see it you wait for a short duration. You can even remove it with condition removals. Retal is on the zerg. You cannot remove it as a ranger.

You were barraging a zerg full of people with retal? well jim we found the problem that’s not retals fault doesn’t mean its broken lol that’s like saying aoe is op cuz you stood in it

Arpheus.6918:

Midnightjade.3520:

Honestly, retal and confuse were not hard to deal with before the patch and are very easy to handle now, but DPS are still complaining? Wow.

You should read my first post. I am using a bunker build. I’m the opposite of GC/DPS. And confusion is skill based. You see it you wait for a short duration. You can even remove it with condition removals. Retal is on the zerg. You cannot remove it as a ranger.

I know, and I wasn’t meaning to be rude. But if you unload on a zerg with guardians in it (and there are always guardians in a zerg since that is where they shine) you’re going to take a beating. I’m not great at WvW and even I know when to spam the retal button.

You should also look at things from the other side’s point of view. What is a guardian supposed to do, just stand there and die? The battle is offense vs defense and both sides of the ball need to have tools they can use to help their side win.

Waffler.1257:

Syktek.7912:

Get smart, stop being a baddy, things will change. Stop requesting nerfs.

This. AoE doesn’t mean you get to beat 5 people by yourself for free. Retaliation is a boon, smart players will do the following.

- Wait for it to run out before using AoE.
- Have a necro use Corrupt Boon/Spinal Shivers/Well of Corruption
- Have a mesmer use Mind Stab/Null Field/Arcane Thievery
- Equip a Nullification weapon

The rangers one shotting themselves on retaliation are the glass cannon I just want to hit everything for big numbers without thinking builds, and frankly they deserve to die.

While I am not complaining about retaliation, your list of items applies how to big zerg balls, which is the current norm? The only one in your list even remotely applicable is null field.

Personally I think rather then reduce it by 33% damage, they should have linked damage to how much you take back, it would solve a lot of the ‘many small hit’ issues.

Well I can get around if I simply don’t use longbow. But that is really bad design if you cannot use certain weapons because of the way retal works.
They should change the way retal works then.

Or make it so that everyone gets hit by huge retal numbers. Wait a week then and there will be so much QQ on forums since it suddenly hits everyone for the same that it will be fixed. Classes who are lucky to not really get hit by retal should be glad that they got lucky.
Play a ranger or engineer and you know what I am talking about. And a guardian has many roles in WvW. He would be far from useless with a retal change.
Walls, heals, boons. He can even be in the front lines if he wants. Guardian is very fine.

OK
U should hit me 1k+ with 1500 range, but i should not hit u 300dmg -.-
Yes, lets nerf the boons too …
/no

Retal is rarely, rarely ever up 100% in WvW due to chaos of the scene, distance between groups, and sheer numbers unless you’re working with a small group but that hasn’t been what this thread is about. It was fine as is. Remove the nerf – bring back diversity, options and skill. If you’re answer is making something effect everything equally, you’re doing it wrong.

Please let this game last at least a year before you destroy its diversity.

I invite people to try rolling a class in WvWvW that has a multi-hit channeling skill, like the engineer Flamethrower before telling the rest of us to l2p. You hit 1 once and you’re dead. It’s like that. No take backsies. The only way to avoid is to not use that skill, which was never the design intent.

Haldunius.7864:

Remove the nerf – bring back diversity, options and skill. If you’re answer is making something effect everything equally, you’re doing it wrong.

Please let this game last at least a year before you destroy its diversity.

Respectfully going to disagree. The way to destroy diversity is to provide incentives to not use particular skills because they suffer from one-shot self-kill due to someone else’s boon.

Oh look, yet another thread on this subject over in the engineer forum!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Flamethrower-and-Retaliation

" the auto-attack of Flamethrower have 10 attack in 2 seconds…I did 4000 damage in 4 seconds to 3 people and they did 20k damage of retaliation to me…this is normal?"

If anything, retaliation needs further adjustment.

I still have 17k hp remaining? Ok, I can throw a grenade barrage at my enemies to do some good aoe spike damage.

Oh, hey, I just downed myself in 3 seconds from nothing except retaliation damage.

Now I’ll just use the forum argument of “LOL JUST BOON REMOVE”. It’s just that easy guise!!!!! After that I’ll just never attack any enemies again. I’ll really be winning once I use that method! Thanks Haldunius. You are are a tactical battlefield genius.

Admittedly my Elementalist is glass cannon. But I’ve been downed by casting 1 meteor shower on a zerg outside a gate before. No I do not believe a buff that can easily be stacked by certain classes as well as using blast finishers in light fields should be able to 100% down a glass cannon from a single cast.

Go ahead and tell me again how hard it is to get area retal with a few guardians and a few thieves with shortbows.

This is not a big problem atm as not alot of groups do it, but as balancing continues it will become the meta at some point and it will be nerfed if it isn’t balanced before then.

Chaba.5410:

Haldunius.7864:

Remove the nerf – bring back diversity, options and skill. If you’re answer is making something effect everything equally, you’re doing it wrong.

Please let this game last at least a year before you destroy its diversity.

Respectfully going to disagree. The way to destroy diversity is to provide incentives to not use particular skills because they suffer from one-shot self-kill due to someone else’s boon.

Chaba you’re easily one of the best and most knowledge engineers I know of, however, I still disagree :P You’re skills can still be used all the time, just not when retaliation is up. Identifying its presence and adapting behavior is the key. Again, retaliation is not nearly close to 100% uptime in WvW. It added spice by making people think before they acted, just like confusion, and now it’s a quick handshake with a “hey how ya doing”.

I’ve said my piece and the nerf happened. I’m just a sour susie and a little astonished that I saw more nerf requested.

Edit to add – Shortcake, I’d advise you to look before you leap. I never said boon removal was the answer. I said it’s the only enemy boon you have control over.

The best thing is: people suggest to wait for 10 or so seconds – retal will probably still be there by then.
Ok lets take a zerg of 20 flamethrower/grenade-engineers and 20 longbow/GS-rangers vs another zerg. You know what would happen?
The engineer/ranger zerg would start with their AoE and be down the moment the enmy zerg reaches them. No need to fight on the other side. Just stand there and laugh.
So this cannot be what the devs want WvW to be.
Now lets say there was no retal. The 20 engineers and rangers would have a real chance!
Huge AoE, lots of slows/chills/poison and whatever. They would probably not win due to lack of diversity but it would be an interesting fight.
As it is now this fight would end 1000:0 if the mixed zerg is somewhat competent.

Haldunius.7864:

Chaba.5410:

Haldunius.7864:

Remove the nerf – bring back diversity, options and skill. If you’re answer is making something effect everything equally, you’re doing it wrong.

Please let this game last at least a year before you destroy its diversity.

Respectfully going to disagree. The way to destroy diversity is to provide incentives to not use particular skills because they suffer from one-shot self-kill due to someone else’s boon.

Chaba you’re easily one of the best and most knowledge engineers I know of, however, I still disagree :P You’re skills can still be used all the time, just not when retaliation is up. Identifying its presence and adapting behavior is the key. Again, retaliation is not nearly close to 100% uptime in WvW.

You must be playing terrible people then because it has an 100% uptime and tbh it isn’t even hard to maintain on 20ish people.

@Haldunius
You know the moment when two fully might/retal stacked zergs clash together? In 5-10 seconds it’s often obvious which side won.
So waiting 20 sec til retal ran out is not an option. You cannot wait 3 seconds. You have to use all you have to help your zerg win. If 30 enemies run over you you can’t do nothing. You have to react and fight them or you will be dead.
In 1v1 you can kite the enemy for a bit until it ran off. But not in zerg vs zerg. At least not in the fast fights. There are also these everlasting fights but I am talking about those where both sides rush into each other. Thats what happens alot on our tier.

Niim.9260:

Waffler.1257:

Syktek.7912:

Get smart, stop being a baddy, things will change. Stop requesting nerfs.

This. AoE doesn’t mean you get to beat 5 people by yourself for free. Retaliation is a boon, smart players will do the following.

- Wait for it to run out before using AoE.
- Have a necro use Corrupt Boon/Spinal Shivers/Well of Corruption
- Have a mesmer use Mind Stab/Null Field/Arcane Thievery
- Equip a Nullification weapon

The rangers one shotting themselves on retaliation are the glass cannon I just want to hit everything for big numbers without thinking builds, and frankly they deserve to die.

While I am not complaining about retaliation, your list of items applies how to big zerg balls, which is the current norm? The only one in your list even remotely applicable is null field.

Personally I think rather then reduce it by 33% damage, they should have linked damage to how much you take back, it would solve a lot of the ‘many small hit’ issues.

Obviously one person employing these tactics will not be able to debuff an entire zerg ball spamming retaliation. But that isn’t a fair comparison, if you are going against a zerg where there are a lot of boon spamming classes then you will need a lot of boon stripping classes to deal with them. You could even have a zerg of nothing but rangers spamming barrage, but if they all use nullification weps then the enemy zerg will have no boons. The reason the OP is complaining about being killed by retaliation is that there simply aren’t a lot of people that choose to use skills/items that strip boons so it leads to a lot of people thinking they are overpowered.

Benjamin.7893:

Haldunius.7864:

Chaba.5410:

Haldunius.7864:

Remove the nerf – bring back diversity, options and skill. If you’re answer is making something effect everything equally, you’re doing it wrong.

Please let this game last at least a year before you destroy its diversity.

Respectfully going to disagree. The way to destroy diversity is to provide incentives to not use particular skills because they suffer from one-shot self-kill due to someone else’s boon.

Chaba you’re easily one of the best and most knowledge engineers I know of, however, I still disagree :P You’re skills can still be used all the time, just not when retaliation is up. Identifying its presence and adapting behavior is the key. Again, retaliation is not nearly close to 100% uptime in WvW.

You must be playing terrible people then because it has an 100% uptime and tbh it isn’t even hard to maintain on 20ish people.

How foolish of me. I forgot that only skilled people play on whatever server you are on. I will ask everyone on my tier to PM you for tips.

Haldunius.7864:

Benjamin.7893:

Haldunius.7864:

Chaba.5410:

Haldunius.7864:

Remove the nerf – bring back diversity, options and skill. If you’re answer is making something effect everything equally, you’re doing it wrong.

Please let this game last at least a year before you destroy its diversity.

Respectfully going to disagree. The way to destroy diversity is to provide incentives to not use particular skills because they suffer from one-shot self-kill due to someone else’s boon.

Chaba you’re easily one of the best and most knowledge engineers I know of, however, I still disagree :P You’re skills can still be used all the time, just not when retaliation is up. Identifying its presence and adapting behavior is the key. Again, retaliation is not nearly close to 100% uptime in WvW.

You must be playing terrible people then because it has an 100% uptime and tbh it isn’t even hard to maintain on 20ish people.

How foolish of me. I forgot that only skilled people play on whatever server you are on. I will ask everyone on my tier to PM you for tips.

Not hard to figure out how it is possible to do so considering the GvG meta is 50% guardians (and 0% engineers and rangers btw).

Chaba.5410:

" the auto-attack of Flamethrower have 10 attack in 2 seconds…I did 4000 damage in 4 seconds to 3 people and they did 20k damage of retaliation to me…this is normal?"

The Flamethrower has large cone area. So you doing damage not to one but multiple targets. So if all you targets have retaliation that’s what you get. If you want to dish out big you need to be ready the receive big as well.

Arpheus.6918:

The best thing is: people suggest to wait for 10 or so seconds – retal will probably still be there by then.
Ok lets take a zerg of 20 flamethrower/grenade-engineers and 20 longbow/GS-rangers vs another zerg. You know what would happen?
The engineer/ranger zerg would start with their AoE and be down the moment the enmy zerg reaches them. No need to fight on the other side. Just stand there and laugh.
So this cannot be what the devs want WvW to be.
Now lets say there was no retal. The 20 engineers and rangers would have a real chance!
Huge AoE, lots of slows/chills/poison and whatever. They would probably not win due to lack of diversity but it would be an interesting fight.
As it is now this fight would end 1000:0 if the mixed zerg is somewhat competent.

Be aware of your surroundings. Don’t be single minded. Diversity is the beauty of the game. And this compare is just silly.

I’m so tired of all the baddies coming on the forums. The main issue is that Anet seems to listen to them. Retaliation has had a couple of nerfs over time: damage reduction and stacking duration reduction. And still, people are complaining.

My main was a mesmer, and now, because all the baddies who just wanted to spam buttons, not think, or were rolling with a bad group who had no clenses, qqed the class to death. Portals are op, nerf the CD, portals are still op, limit it to some stupid arbitrary number, no more portals. In WvW, the confusion, galmor mesmer was the only viable build unless you were doing small skirmishes, and even there, confusion was very important. “Whaaa, I’m a DD ele cycling my rotations like a mindless idiot, and I’m dying. I’m not supposed to die! I’ve got the bunker build.” “Whaaa, I’m a DD thief heartseeking over and over again, and I’m dead. This usually works.” But no. No more. Mesmers got shafted, and already, I’ve seen almost no glamor fields, no clones, no mesmers. Confusion was only a problem for the idiots who kept attacking. The whole point of confusion was to nullify the enemy or do damage. Bleeds do way more damage with the same amount of condition damage. There are still a few of them around, and like I said, still good in yak killing, small camp flipping parties, but for the most part, shelved class.

Now, you guys are still kittening about retaliation. It is one of the guardian’s main offensive boons. They have medium melee damage, so they depend on retaliation to make up for it. Now, with boon hating (although, it is still pointless to trait for it) and thief steal, guardians are more vulnerable.

Pay attention to boons and conditions. Jeez.

Haldunius,

I take no issue with agreeing to disagree with you.

Funny how people actually think it’s ok that a 100% uptime boon makes it so that 2 kits and 1 weapon are completely unplayable.

Diversity I guess rofl

What the OP has been whining about is that the retal nerf was removed so obvious, please l2read guys!

Oh wait, the retal nerf is still there and this guy is wildly gesticulating in paranoia, cos he found one group with a high power guardian :/

Another thing, the key boon in every guild group = stability, now, how to provide this? Answer “Stand Your Ground”, ‘Hallowed Ground’, of which SYG is generally preferred for instant cast time, low recharge and because it follows you where you go, rather than reapplying 1sec in a small area for 5secs – a subsidiary of SYG is the retal; so every Zerg will have a fair amount of retal for every push, however without boon duration, it only lasts 5 seconds which isn’t too much to worry about, unless you’re fighting a Zerg of guardians.

Please do not get Retal nerfed to confusion levels, confusion really only needed a 25-33% decrease and a removal of procc on dodge/tornado bug, now it’s a little saddening for any of the mesmers who need to fork out for new gear completely. Retal you can complain to get the flamethrower hit count/procc down maybe, but don’t destroy it completely, pl0x

It’s not gonna matter what anet does or say. Wvw will always de dominated by organized guild groups. Doesn’t matter if anet wants wvw to he “casual” a group of randoms isn’t gonna beat a good guild group on a regular basis. My point being that all the complaining does ne good cause they will still find a way to win

When you ask for the WvW meta for Zerg vs Zerg engineer and ranger are at the very bottom of it. Guess why?
They can’t use their skills which would make them worthy. Denial of almost two classes for zerg vs zerg because of one boon is bad design.
What would make engineer good for zerg vs zerg? Grenades – what can’t they use? Grenades.
What would make ranger good for zerg vs zerg? Barrage – what can’t they use because of retal? Barrage
Guardian is #1 class in wvw. There is a reason why. Retal is one of the many.

Btw what I am asking for is to only find one solution for barrage and engineers. They can either change retal with ICD or whatever or change the way barrage and grenades work.
No matter how they have to change something that rangers and engineers don’t kill themselves. Necros and eles do alot more AoE but don’t suffer from retal that much.
So there is some kind of a unbalance in that area which could be fixed by AreaNet.

Fun fact, did you know Retal already got nerfed in traits and utilities?

Did you also know that Guardians have no ranged threat and possess burst attacks that are laughable compared to others professions? You’re telling us you want to be able to kite a Guardian from a distance…that cannot and won’t be catching you if you’re half decent…cannot burst you down unless you’re a puny Glass Cannon…and just watch it melt and die a slow painful one…???? While he tickles you with 200 damage and you deal 1.5k-2k for every skill? Yet you claim balance?…Such Irony. It looks to me you just want to have it the easy way and totally remove Guardians as a threat and just be reduced to a full fledged healer/boon support.

I would gladly give up all of my Guardian’s Retaliation…take note: ALL, if you simply let us equip a Ranged weapon, forget about burst. Just give me a Rifle, and you can have my Retaliation, fair? I wouldn’t even think twice, 300 damage for a thousand? Yes please, but sadly, this is what we only have right now, so excuse us if we want to have something to compensate.

You want us to just melt down and be kited to death helpless. Retaliation already has a pitiful damage of 300+, Guardians have to work on that damage while other professions work on 2k, 3k…10k single bursts?…and even then, Guardians have to still take damage to even dish something back while all the other professions can enjoy pre-emptive striking/bursts??

If you burst Guardians with 3 attack totaling to 8-10k, you will only receive 1,000 damage maximum. In Zerg vs Zerg fights, in Order for Guardians to be dealing Retaliation damage to many people as what some are suggestion, he has to be within attack range of the Zerg correct, of which Guardians will easily melt down if at least 5 people are half decent in that Zerg, Meanwhile, Necros, Eles, Warriors, Mesmers, Engineers, Ranger, and heck even Thieves…can sit back and use their handy dandy long range weapons and effectively dish out WAAAYYY MORE damage minus the risk. A Guardian can probably run for 1-2 second at the tip of the range of the enemy Zerg and bail out just to deal enough Retail damage to tag people for the loots, you’re delusional if you think Guardians can just stand in the middle of a Zerg and deal Retal damage to so many people 100% of the time.

Cosmic.6047:

Chaba.5410:

" the auto-attack of Flamethrower have 10 attack in 2 seconds…I did 4000 damage in 4 seconds to 3 people and they did 20k damage of retaliation to me…this is normal?"

The Flamethrower has large cone area. So you doing damage not to one but multiple targets. So if all you targets have retaliation that’s what you get. If you want to dish out big you need to be ready the receive big as well.

4k of damage to 3 people (the engineer had a bit of might stacked to get that amount of damage) and 20k returned is more than 100% of the damage dished out. Take the time to understand how retaliation processes for multi-hit channeling skills compared to other big damage AoE skills.

If I really wanted to be facetious I would write something along the lines of how, if you see an engineer with a flamethrower and might stacked about to dish out big, you should throw your boon strippers at that player rather than QQing about the damage output.

Retaliation damage is the same when you do 8k in 1 hit and 100 in 1 hit…wonderfull…it’s too difficult set the damage of retaliation based on a percentual of damage taken?

This discussion will too easily devolve into QQ over the retaliation nerf and distract from the core problem, which is how it processes on certain skills.

It should be clear that no one should argue here for retaliation be weakened so that it returns a piddling amount of damage. Yet everyone should recognize that retaliation processing has some balance issues with certain types of damage source skills. Whether the 33% reduction is a good or poor solution to balance is debatable.

The point is not that the guardian retaliates the dmg. It’s the entire zerg because not only the guardians have retal on them but almost everyone if a good zerg buffs each other.
You are always talking about us dealing 1k-2k and getting back 370 damage.
My ranger is bunker. So I dish out an average of lets say 2k per person and get back 15k damage. That doesnt seem fair at all.
My hits deal only around 300-400 damage per shot – 600-700 crit which is only every 5th hit (bunker) and I get back 370 per hit.
And my damage is divided on the zerg which means I won’t really hurt anyone but I die of one use of the skill.

The problem are the many small hits that retal alot more dmg than you actually do to single persons in the zerg.
Same thing for flamethrower. It does small damage and retals alot more damage than he does.
That is the main problem.
And an ICD of let’s say 0.5 sec does not harm the guardian in 1v1 at all. The thing it would change is zerg vs zerg. And that is what is needed for the classes that deal lots of small damage numbers and getting hurt for lot (300-400 per).

Chaba.5410:

Cosmic.6047:

Chaba.5410:

" the auto-attack of Flamethrower have 10 attack in 2 seconds…I did 4000 damage in 4 seconds to 3 people and they did 20k damage of retaliation to me…this is normal?"

The Flamethrower has large cone area. So you doing damage not to one but multiple targets. So if all you targets have retaliation that’s what you get. If you want to dish out big you need to be ready the receive big as well.

4k of damage to 3 people (the engineer had a bit of might stacked to get that amount of damage) and 20k returned is more than 100% of the damage dished out. Take the time to understand how retaliation processes for multi-hit channeling skills compared to other big damage AoE skills.

If I really wanted to be facetious I would write something along the lines of how, if you see an engineer with a flamethrower and might stacked about to dish out big, you should throw your boon strippers at that player rather than QQing about the damage output.

I do know the mechanics behind. My engineer is using a flamethrower and I love it.