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Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

Now that the HoT meta is starting to settle anyone else notice that a handful of elites have become nearly unkillable in skirmish without heavy focus and many of these builds maintain a solid DPS?

Sustain has become too prolific in my opinion at least on builds that can output decent DPS. I have completely stopped engaging Dragon Hunters, Tempests and Scrappers. Any of the bunker Chronomancers also get a pass.

Not sure if this is a good or bad thing but a lot of fights have become an exercise in futility or a bring three friends sort of deal.

Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”

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Posted by: Kaiser.9873

Kaiser.9873

Throw in a Turtle Banner, and you might as well give up.

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Posted by: X T D.6458

X T D.6458

Its basically because balance has been nonexistant for months now

I say what needs to be said, get used to it.
Honesty is not insulting, stupidity is.
>Class Balance is a Joke<

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Posted by: Fellfoot.8156

Fellfoot.8156

+1 all of the above… it’s even more annoying when they are running around in pairs.

[AIR] Henge of Denravi aka Pink Abu, [BAMA] RollTide
chopping wood one day, dropped a piece,
all I could say was, “…fell…foot…”

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Posted by: rchu.8945

rchu.8945

Now that the HoT meta is starting to settle anyone else notice that a handful of elites have become nearly unkillable in skirmish without heavy focus and many of these builds maintain a solid DPS?

Sustain has become too prolific in my opinion at least on builds that can output decent DPS. I have completely stopped engaging Dragon Hunters, Tempests and Scrappers. Any of the bunker Chronomancers also get a pass.

Not sure if this is a good or bad thing but a lot of fights have become an exercise in futility or a bring three friends sort of deal.

I rather deal with bunker meta than a thief stealth abuse meta.

Sanctum of Rall
Pain Train Choo [Choo]
Mind Smack – Mesmer

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Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

I rather deal with bunker meta than a thief stealth abuse meta.

Whaaaaaaaa? The best stealth class isn’t even the thief. I would not even put it in the top 2 any longer. Thieves are getting crushed in duels, easily near the bottom of the new elite specs and utterly useless in large scale combat. The thief class is down to being a decent +1 on a fight and using its high mobility for scouting.

Most of the meta thief/DD WvW builds don’t even run Shadow Arts now that Dare Devil and Trickery are pretty much required. Even the venerable D/P high stealth is near useless against any of the bunkers listed above. Don’t even get me started on pure bunkers like the Druid… no prayer of downing one built to stay up.

Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”

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Posted by: Svarty.8019

Svarty.8019

Now that the HoT meta is starting to settle anyone else notice that a handful of elites have become nearly unkillable in skirmish without heavy focus and many of these builds maintain a solid DPS?

Sustain has become too prolific in my opinion at least on builds that can output decent DPS. I have completely stopped engaging Dragon Hunters, Tempests and Scrappers. Any of the bunker Chronomancers also get a pass.

Not sure if this is a good or bad thing but a lot of fights have become an exercise in futility or a bring three friends sort of deal.

This is where being rubbish at 1v1 has it’s benefits. I can’t tell if someone amazing killed me or whether is was an OP class. I’ll always say it’s an OP class tbh.

Nobody at Anet loves WvW like Grouch loved PvP. That’s what we need, a WvW Grouch, but taller.

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Posted by: primatos.5413

primatos.5413

Heart of Toons. Nothing serious. Just a joke all that crap .. Turtle Banners and else .. sn getting 1000 sups all 15 mins ? And so on ..

Lügen-Anet Anet-Lügen

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Posted by: Alloy.2839

Alloy.2839

Thanks for the info, I was wondering about these relatively invulnerable enemies I had been seeing. Hopefully they are OP in PvP also, that way they might be fixed in the near future.

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Posted by: Caliburn.1845

Caliburn.1845

It is just a trickle over from PvP, stuff like scrapper, druid, tempest? Maybe mallyx revs?

They’re very strong in small fights. If you’re running a zerk build, they’ll out sustain you, if you’re running a zerg build they’ll out damage you.

Which is fine with me, if people want to run classes and builds that are very strong in 1-5 man fights, good on them.

Caliburn.1845, Monsters Inc.
Darkhaven>Dragonbrand>Blackgate>Maguuma>Yaks Bend>Stormbluff Isle>Yaks Bend

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Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

Thanks for the info, I was wondering about these relatively invulnerable enemies I had been seeing. Hopefully they are OP in PvP also, that way they might be fixed in the near future.

Some of these builds are dominating PvP currently but the current problem in WvW is they are even tougher and have higher DPS thanks to food, gear, etc. Given the PU Mesmer was OP for over a year, we can only hope that ANet doesn’t wait so long to bring some balance back. I cannot even imagine what non-HoT players are doing because the bunker elite specs are miles better than anything out there right now.

Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”

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Posted by: Fellfoot.8156

Fellfoot.8156

I cannot even imagine what non-HoT players are doing because the bunker elite specs are miles better than anything out there right now.

..we’re dying… actually, I’m dying a lot, lol. Doesn’t bother me though. It’s more fun when they’re chasing you down to kill you because you keep flipping their camps >:D

Edit: and they always know that even though they’ve killed you over and over, you’re going to keep taking their camps just as soon as they leave the map or log off. #patienceftw

[AIR] Henge of Denravi aka Pink Abu, [BAMA] RollTide
chopping wood one day, dropped a piece,
all I could say was, “…fell…foot…”

(edited by Fellfoot.8156)

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Posted by: sephiroth.4217

sephiroth.4217

You should try fighting these builds in PvP, on point.

I mostly play for the new Free-For-All arena in PvP lobby.
….. And Elementalist.

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Posted by: msalakka.4653

msalakka.4653

Now that the HoT meta is starting to settle anyone else notice that a handful of elites have become nearly unkillable in skirmish without heavy focus and many of these builds maintain a solid DPS?

Sustain has become too prolific in my opinion at least on builds that can output decent DPS. I have completely stopped engaging Dragon Hunters, Tempests and Scrappers. Any of the bunker Chronomancers also get a pass.

Not sure if this is a good or bad thing but a lot of fights have become an exercise in futility or a bring three friends sort of deal.

This is where being rubbish at 1v1 has it’s benefits. I can’t tell if someone amazing killed me or whether is was an OP class. I’ll always say it’s an OP class tbh.

No one has to be rubbish at 1v1 anymore.

If you are, just pick up one of the pay2win elites.

Gutter Rat [cry] | Gandara | Roaming nuisance
~ There is no balance team. ~

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Posted by: Lord Kuru.3685

Lord Kuru.3685

I cannot even imagine what non-HoT players are doing because the bunker elite specs are miles better than anything out there right now.

..we’re dying… actually, I’m dying a lot, lol. Doesn’t bother me though. It’s more fun when they’re chasing you down to kill you because you keep flipping their camps >:D

Edit: and they always know that even though they’ve killed you over and over, you’re going to keep taking their camps just as soon as they leave the map or log off. #patienceftw

They’re probably just there to farm you, not protect their camps.

So if you leave the map for 10 minutes, they’ll probably get bored and log off. Then you come back and cap the camps; saving yourself a lot of deaths and permanently capping the camps a lot earlier.

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Posted by: VaaCrow.3076

VaaCrow.3076

Now that the HoT meta is starting to settle anyone else notice that a handful of elites have become nearly unkillable in skirmish without heavy focus and many of these builds maintain a solid DPS?

Sustain has become too prolific in my opinion at least on builds that can output decent DPS. I have completely stopped engaging Dragon Hunters, Tempests and Scrappers. Any of the bunker Chronomancers also get a pass.

Not sure if this is a good or bad thing but a lot of fights have become an exercise in futility or a bring three friends sort of deal.

This is where being rubbish at 1v1 has it’s benefits. I can’t tell if someone amazing killed me or whether is was an OP class. I’ll always say it’s an OP class tbh.

No one has to be rubbish at 1v1 anymore.

If you are, just pick up one of the pay2win elites.

Nothing in this game is pay2win, quit misusing the term.

[Rise] Madness Rises Guild Leader [Kei Shade-ranger]
May our BL break all foes. Fear our babou!
Gunnars Hold Represent! <3

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Posted by: Lord Kuru.3685

Lord Kuru.3685

Now that the HoT meta is starting to settle anyone else notice that a handful of elites have become nearly unkillable in skirmish without heavy focus and many of these builds maintain a solid DPS?

Sustain has become too prolific in my opinion at least on builds that can output decent DPS. I have completely stopped engaging Dragon Hunters, Tempests and Scrappers. Any of the bunker Chronomancers also get a pass.

Not sure if this is a good or bad thing but a lot of fights have become an exercise in futility or a bring three friends sort of deal.

This is where being rubbish at 1v1 has it’s benefits. I can’t tell if someone amazing killed me or whether is was an OP class. I’ll always say it’s an OP class tbh.

No one has to be rubbish at 1v1 anymore.

If you are, just pick up one of the pay2win elites.

Nothing in this game is pay2win, quit misusing the term.

Considering the balance between elite specializations and core, the game absolutely is P2W.

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Posted by: SpreadCheese.5208

SpreadCheese.5208

P2W isn’t in this game.

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Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

Nothing in this game is pay2win, quit misusing the term.

In this case, I would have to say it is Pay4SubstantiallyStrongerBuilds. Not that I mind since the game doesn’t have a sub and the base game is now free.

My general gripe remains that some bunkers are far too bunker-y and DPS-y compared to the other 90% of the class/build combinations.

Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”

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Posted by: kuritsutian.2987

kuritsutian.2987

P2W isn’t in this game.

There is an advantage for those with elite specs over those without… requirement to win, maybe not, but an advantage it is.

Suddenly in the Forums Everyone is now a Game designer!

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Posted by: Extreme.8350

Extreme.8350

Now that the HoT meta is starting to settle anyone else notice that a handful of elites have become nearly unkillable in skirmish without heavy focus and many of these builds maintain a solid DPS?

Sustain has become too prolific in my opinion at least on builds that can output decent DPS. I have completely stopped engaging Dragon Hunters, Tempests and Scrappers. Any of the bunker Chronomancers also get a pass.

Not sure if this is a good or bad thing but a lot of fights have become an exercise in futility or a bring three friends sort of deal.

This is where being rubbish at 1v1 has it’s benefits. I can’t tell if someone amazing killed me or whether is was an OP class. I’ll always say it’s an OP class tbh.

No one has to be rubbish at 1v1 anymore.

If you are, just pick up one of the pay2win elites.

Nothing in this game is pay2win, quit misusing the term.

Considering the balance between elite specializations and core, the game absolutely is P2W.

Now you are just grasping for straws try playing actual p2w games like aion or archage.
The grind is like doing dungeon master
every week for years.

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Posted by: gennyt.3428

gennyt.3428

It’s flirting with pay2win at the very least. Is it as obnoxious and two faced as Archeage? Nah. Can you still run around on some pre-Hot builds and kill people? Yes, but it’s a lot tougher and some fights are just dead ends because of the sheer amount of sustain and damage the new specs can access. I think players without HoT are kind of kittened in all aspects of the game.

Whispers with meat.

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Posted by: SpreadCheese.5208

SpreadCheese.5208

You are paying for the expansion which includes the elite specs. There is no P2W. Maybe it’s better to say P2P. So, some of us had to pay twice in 3 years and some new players have to pay once.

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Posted by: Jski.6180

Jski.6180

How is it different from wvw before HoT? Condtion meta ruled the 1v1 or low man before HoT and it rules after just now you got to gear for the duration you no longer get it for free though food alone.
My main point is wvw not made for 1v1 or even low man its about big fights and condtion in a big fight mean nothing.

Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
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Posted by: Alloy.2839

Alloy.2839

In war there is no second place winner, and militaries around the world will pay huge premiums for small advantages. True, in WvW we do have second and third place winners, or losers depending on your point of view. So the advantages of elites can be construed as P2W, or as Straegen calls it Pay4SubstantiallyStrongerBuilds. However since ANet gives away the base game, and needs to pay its bills and employees, I have no problem with this. Just buy the expansion and run that build yourself. Or wait for the elites to be nerfed, they will eventually be. I own HoT and have elites unlocked on all my characters. Even so I still play my necro as a necro.

(edited by Alloy.2839)

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Posted by: DanielHarvey.7320

DanielHarvey.7320

. sn getting 1000 sups all 15 mins ? And so on ..

Fixed.

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Posted by: KayCee.4653

KayCee.4653

Thanks for the info, I was wondering about these relatively invulnerable enemies I had been seeing. Hopefully they are OP in PvP also, that way they might be fixed in the near future.

I know many people that changed their ascended armor over to nomad stats, not sure the ascended armor name for that right now. They run it when they know the servers they are going to be picking fights with are likely going to be blobbing.

Sadly I am seeing more and more going over to using uber-tank/super-tank armor stats and even giving up high damage abilities in favor of super healing abilities. I don’t mind the super-tank stats but uber healing from near 0% health to full health in a second is rather upsetting.

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Posted by: Aeolus.3615

Aeolus.3615

well it is easy to make high damage add the aoe spam to the recipe and then some things that are broken for being to much or to much useless, and everyone needs to get defensive stats…. not that hard to notice.

1st April joke, when gw2 receives a “balance” update.

(edited by Aeolus.3615)

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Posted by: Kaiser.9873

Kaiser.9873

well it is easy to make high damage add the aoe spam to the recipe, and everyone needs to get defensive stats…. not that hard to notice.

Not to mention with the, now old, stability change the frontline has a terrible time getting through the mess. It’s no wonder most frontliners are running Nomads.

I’d rather go back to the days of hammer trains than deal with this continued pirate ship playstyle.

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Posted by: KayCee.4653

KayCee.4653

well it is easy to make high damage add the aoe spam to the recipe, and everyone needs to get defensive stats…. not that hard to notice.

Yeah especially when most blob fights have the ground looking like nothing but red blood rings all over the place. Bye bye being glassy, those folks get wrecked fast in all those rings Hello tanky, those folks survive for a few moments to run out of the red rings :\ Good if you’re the one that survives, bad if its the enemy that does

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Posted by: Lord Kuru.3685

Lord Kuru.3685

Now that the HoT meta is starting to settle anyone else notice that a handful of elites have become nearly unkillable in skirmish without heavy focus and many of these builds maintain a solid DPS?

Sustain has become too prolific in my opinion at least on builds that can output decent DPS. I have completely stopped engaging Dragon Hunters, Tempests and Scrappers. Any of the bunker Chronomancers also get a pass.

Not sure if this is a good or bad thing but a lot of fights have become an exercise in futility or a bring three friends sort of deal.

This is where being rubbish at 1v1 has it’s benefits. I can’t tell if someone amazing killed me or whether is was an OP class. I’ll always say it’s an OP class tbh.

No one has to be rubbish at 1v1 anymore.

If you are, just pick up one of the pay2win elites.

Nothing in this game is pay2win, quit misusing the term.

Considering the balance between elite specializations and core, the game absolutely is P2W.

Now you are just grasping for straws try playing actual p2w games like aion or archage.
The grind is like doing dungeon master
every week for years.

The balance is such that elite specializations have enormous advantages over those with only core. That’s P2W — pay (for HoT) to win (over those who didn’t pay for HoT).

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Posted by: zinkz.7045

zinkz.7045

I rather deal with bunker meta than a thief stealth abuse meta.

Whaaaaaaaa? The best stealth class isn’t even the thief. I would not even put it in the top 2 any longer…

Which would be irrelevant to the point he was making, the idea that WvW was ever balanced is laughable, there was a reason why that for most of this game thief was by far the most common roamer, as risk vs reward was completely broken when you can basically disengage at will.

(edited by zinkz.7045)

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Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

Which would be irrelevant to the point he was making, the idea that WvW was ever balanced is laughable, there was a reason why that for most of this game thief was by far the most common roamer, as risk vs reward was completely broken when you can basically disengage at will.

Thieves and dare devils have great escape (their only dominate attribute in the current meta) but a player running away is a victory in WvW as it allows a player or team to secure an objective. Theives also forgo sustain and trade off that high mobility for being brittle so their is an obvious downside to playing that class.

Contrast this to the current bunker meta where one player is able to sustain against multiple while outputting considerable DPS and control. The effects are greatly amplified in skirmish where 5 players running these bunker specs are nigh unkillable without a mini-zerg. Add in that some of these builds are ridiculously easy to play.

Using the thief as an example of some OP game play in this case is going to fall on deaf ears because that class ranks near the bottom in terms of WvW capable classes and is all but useless in ranked PvP. It is like saying remember that time warriors were good, sure but it isn’t relevant to this conversation.

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“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”

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Posted by: ArchonWing.9480

ArchonWing.9480

PvP seems to be borked, and this borkiness passes on into a land where the balance is exactly the same but completely not equipped to deal with it because it’s often a wide open area instead of own points.

For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.

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Posted by: zinkz.7045

zinkz.7045

Thieves and dare devils have great escape (their only dominate attribute in the current meta)…

The state of thief in the current meta is irrelevant to the point, his point was he preferred the current meta to when thieves dominated.

Add in that some of these builds are ridiculously easy to play.

Everything in this game is easy to play, it has a low skill cap, the only thing that increases the skill cap in this game is the conquest game mode.

Using the thief as an example of some OP game play in this case is going to fall on deaf ears because that class ranks near the bottom in terms of WvW capable classes and is all but useless in ranked PvP. It is like saying remember that time warriors were good, sure but it isn’t relevant to this conversation.

Learn to read, it isn’t about thief in the current situation, it is about preference, these “bunkers” you QQ about are nothing when roaming in WvW compared to say when s/d thief was completely broken, before it was nerfed, or earlier in the game when on thief the damage was ridiculous and you could complete your burst whilst still in stealth and you had scrubs using macros, on top of the most broken level of risk vs rewrd this game has ever had.

but it isn’t relevant to this conversation.

Sure it’s relevant, you seem to be living in an alternate reality where WvW small group/roaming was somehow balanced, it has always been an imbalanced joke.

(edited by zinkz.7045)

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Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

The state of thief in the current meta is irrelevant to the point, his point was he preferred the current meta to when thieves dominated.

Thieves have never dominated WvW. They might be annoying and for a time strong in 1v1 matches but they have always been found lacking in skirmish and large group play. This is not true of the current bunker meta. These classes excel in both solo and skirmish play. Some are even strong in large group play. The concept that a thief is “dominant” because it can run or was strong in a single form of WvW play is silly.

Everything in this game is easy to play, it has a low skill cap, the only thing that increases the skill cap in this game is the conquest game mode.

There are clearly some classes/builds that require more skill to play. There is also complexity in skirmish where a well built team timing their abilities can beat a significantly larger force. This is an action combat MMO and skill plays a large part.

Learn to read, it isn’t about thief in the current situation, it is about preference, these “bunkers” you QQ about are nothing when roaming in WvW compared to say when s/d thief was completely broken…

Pointing out that a previous build was OP as justification for a current set of arguable OP builds is not an actual point. It is basically an anecdote. As an aside I posted an observation not a QQ.

Sure it’s relevant, you seem to be living in an alternate reality where WvW small group/roaming was somehow balanced, it has always been an imbalanced joke.

Most of us know pure balance cannot exist but questioning if certain classes/builds skew too far outside the norms should be part of a larger healthy discussion about the game mode. Getting kitteny about questioning if a class or build is OP or not serves no purpose. Bringing up past examples of balance issues as justification for something (still not sure what) makes no sense at least to me. I still do not understand your basic counter point that the current meta is very bunker heavy.

Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”

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Posted by: KayCee.4653

KayCee.4653

Most of us know pure balance cannot exist but questioning if certain classes/builds skew too far outside the norms should be part of a larger healthy discussion about the game mode. Getting kitteny about questioning if a class or build is OP or not serves no purpose. Bringing up past examples of balance issues as justification for something (still not sure what) makes no sense at least to me. I still do not understand your basic counter point that the current meta is very bunker heavy.

Agreed, just cause something is nerfed of x-class like say Druid astral force generation, doesn’t make them any less powerful than before. Why? People learn to use that class in other ways that make it even more powerful or just as powerful as before. Same goes to nerfs done to Revs and their resistance to condi damage and their hammer 2 skill. You still see them using it and it still hurts a plenty. Yet, the nerfing of it didn’t make it any less a viable and powerful class, it made it so that those that QQ about it would stop playing it or leave it, but those that can tolerate it and learn to play it better found other ways of staying relevant as a powerful profession.

An example of this is a friend that started using staff and hammer, while using shiro and glint in an odd combination. Hay, it worked for them and they still main a rev. I don’t like it, but they still do good damage when we fight in small groups and even in zergs.

Because of that, balance will never truly happen. All the devs can do is mix things up and the few that push their mains hard enough will still find ways of making them OP or at least a major thorn in people’s sides. No pun intended.

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Posted by: zinkz.7045

zinkz.7045

Thieves have never dominated WvW.

What? For the majority of this game, thieves have been far the most used roaming class, to the point at times against certain servers you would face more thieves when roaming than every other class put together, that is known as ‘dominance’.

They might be annoying and for a time strong in 1v1 matches but they have always been found lacking in skirmish and large group play.

Clearly a learn to play issue if you think a class that has generally been exceptional at +1, had one of the strongest skills in the game at saving other players in small scale, has been in focus party in GvG most of the time, etc has not been strong in skirmishes.

As for large scale, in that case why are you crying about engy/scrapper & mesmer/chrono, the first of which has been and still is surplus to requirements for large scale and the second one is of niche use for utility or focus party and is vastly outnumbered by necros, guards, revs & eles (and previously warriors).

There are clearly some classes/builds that require more skill to play. There is also complexity in skirmish where a well built team timing their abilities can beat a significantly larger force. This is an action combat MMO and skill plays a large part.

LOL, this game has a low skill cap, the only thing that ups the skill really is conquest mode PvP, WvW is a total joke, roaming or stupid 1v1 duels are rock, paper, scissors, of course that 90% of WvW players basically can’t play the game might give you the delusion combat skill matters, it doesn’t, if you have two competent players what decides the matchup in most cases is just the build or RNG in this “highly” skilled game.

As for “action combat”, not really, GW2 is like a really dumbed down version aimed at casual players, most of the combat is auto targeted just like a traditional MMO, having the odd skill shot, dodge, etc hardly makes it CS (something that actually has a high combat skill cap), beyond that in terms of thought and awareness GW2 requires less than many other MMOs (their implementation of conquest aside which is much higher skill cap than most MMO PvP formats), managing cooldowns is faceroll in this game, no energy management on most classes, etc.

Most of us know pure balance cannot exist but questioning if certain classes/builds skew too far outside the norms should be part of a larger healthy discussion about the game mode. Getting kitteny about questioning if a class or build is OP or not serves no purpose. Bringing up past examples of balance issues as justification for something (still not sure what) makes no sense at least to me. I still do not understand your basic counter point that the current meta is very bunker heavy.

Again learn to read, I wasn’t justifying anything, someone simply stated that they preferred the current meta to when thieves dominated, you started goign on about thieves in the current game, I stated that was irrelevant to what the guy said.

Maybe you are new, or just not very observant, but the classes in WvW have never been remotely balanced in 3 years, Anet largely ignore WvW when it comes to balance, and the few times they do make a change related to WvW it is largely for large scale combat, not roaming/small groups, there is nothing to “justify” you are QQing about your perceived lack of balance, in a game mode that never had any, and 2 of the classes you are QQing about are overall poorly reperesentated in WvW, your thread is pointless.

(edited by zinkz.7045)

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Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

What? For the majority of this game, thieves have been far the most used roaming class, to the point at times against certain servers you would face more thieves when roaming than every other class put together, that is known as ‘dominance’.

You are pointing out one single aspect of WvW that a class once dominated. Thieves never dominated like Warriors in their time which anchored skirmish, sprint roaming and the back bone of hammer train all at the same time. That is domination. WTF a thief from a couple years ago that dominated a small portion of the game mode has to do with my original point about bunkers becoming dominant across the board is beyond me.

Clearly a learn to play issue if you think a class that has generally been exceptional at +1, had one of the strongest skills in the game at saving other players in small scale, has been in focus party in GvG most of the time, etc has not been strong in skirmishes.

Aside from venom share thieves (which is pretty weak relatively speaking) they contribute no field support, no group buffs and their group stealth is abysmal. This is true today and it was true in the GW2 beta. +1 capability in WvW is like kittens on a bull. The maps are too big and rarely do players try to defend nodes making +1 marginal at best unlike sPvP where a thief can move from one defended node to another quickly to help balance fights.

As for large scale, in that case why are you crying about engy/scrapper & mesmer/chrono, the first of which has been and still is surplus to requirements for large scale and the second one is of niche use for utility or focus party and is vastly outnumbered by necros, guards, revs & eles (and previously warriors).

WvW is more than one game mode. Scrappers are excellent roamers and solid skirmish group support. They can hold nodes and take them when defended. Chronos are fantastic across the board and while not a backbone zerg class their utility in large scale is excellent. Their power in skirmish is probably the strongest of any of the new elites as their group evasion is insanely good.

LOL, this game has a low skill cap, the only thing that ups the skill really is conquest mode PvP, WvW is a total joke, roaming or stupid 1v1 duels are rock, paper, scissors, of course that 90% of WvW players basically can’t play the game might give you the delusion combat skill matters, it doesn’t, if you have two competent players what decides the matchup in most cases is just the build or RNG in this “highly” skilled game.

Agree to disagree. I am not sure what successful MMOs out there have a substantially higher degree of skill required to play than GW2. None that I know of have RvR or WvW and virtually none have competitive PvP on this scale. Oh and MOBAs don’t count since they are not an MMO and most are glorified RTS play.

Again learn to read, I wasn’t justifying anything, someone simply stated that they preferred the current meta to when thieves dominated, you started goign on about thieves in the current game, I stated that was irrelevant to what the guy said.

Bringing up a ridiculous straw man argument and insulting me personally doesn’t contribute anything to the larger discussion presented. Bunkers and sustain are currently on the rise in all facets of WvW game play. Not just one class, not just one form of play… all parts of WvW. If you have some information that contributes to that discussion I would enjoy reading it.

Sarcasm For Hire [SFH]
“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”

(edited by Straegen.2938)

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Posted by: Jski.6180

Jski.6180

In war there is no second place winner, and militaries around the world will pay huge premiums for small advantages. True, in WvW we do have second and third place winners, or losers depending on your point of view. So the advantages of elites can be construed as P2W, or as Straegen calls it Pay4SubstantiallyStrongerBuilds. However since ANet gives away the base game, and needs to pay its bills and employees, I have no problem with this. Just buy the expansion and run that build yourself. Or wait for the elites to be nerfed, they will eventually be. I own HoT and have elites unlocked on all my characters. Even so I still play my necro as a necro.

That is the WORST ideal i have head when it comes to war. Often there not first places in wars. NO one get out of a war unharmed or uncharged and no one comply wins at them. Only history books make it out that way becuse its way to hard to tell something complex as “wining” a war in just a few pages or even in words.

Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA

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Posted by: zinkz.7045

zinkz.7045

Bringing up a ridiculous straw man argument …

The only person coming out with nonsense arguments is you, I’ll take one example as your illogical contradictory argument is getting dull, this:

WvW is more than one game mode. Scrappers are excellent roamers and solid skirmish group support. They can hold nodes and take them when defended. Chronos are fantastic across the board and while not a backbone zerg class their utility in large scale is excellent. Their power in skirmish is probably the strongest of any of the new elites as their group evasion is insanely good.

Do you even read your own posts? The following is what I replied to when I commentated on the lack of engy/mes in large scale – “They (thief) might be annoying and for a time strong in 1v1 matches but they have always been found lacking in skirmish and large group play.”

So when we discuss thief, you claim it is lacking because of its relatively minor use in large scale, yet when I say exactly the same for say engy that you are whining about, a class that overall has been the least used / least meta in WvW, we get nonsense like “WvW is more than one game mode. Scrappers are excellent roamers”, pathetic.

…contribute anything to the larger discussion presented.

There is no discussion presented, you are crying about your perceived view of an imbalanced meta that you don’t like, in a game mode that has always had imbalanced metas and gets virtually zero consideration from Anet when it comes to balancing, this is why I ask if you are a new player. You are also complaining about one class that is barely played overall in WvW, and another that is poorly represented, which speaks volumes, in short your “discussion” is just worthless hypocritical QQ.

(edited by zinkz.7045)

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Posted by: Dragonfeu.4356

Dragonfeu.4356

Brusiers have always been strong in games.

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Posted by: Straegen.2938

Straegen.2938

The only person coming out with nonsense arguments is you, I’ll take one example as your illogical contradictory argument is getting dull, this:

I presented my opinion that bunker builds are beginning to dominate in WvW. If that doesn’t may sense to you, I cannot help you understand it any better.

So when we discuss thief, you claim it is lacking because of its relatively minor use in large scale, yet when I say exactly the same for say engy that you are whining about, a class that overall has been the least used / least meta in WvW, we get nonsense like “WvW is more than one game mode. Scrappers are excellent roamers”, pathetic.

I was pointing out that scrappers and chronos are current meta bunker classes and dominating their area of play including duels, skirmish, 1v1 and in the chrono case has great utility in zergs. You are rambling on about classes that aren’t current meta.

There is no discussion presented, you are crying about your perceived view of an imbalanced meta that you don’t like, in a game mode that has always had imbalanced metas and gets virtually zero consideration from Anet when it comes to balancing, this is why I ask if you are a new player.

Again my point is that several class’s dominant builds are bunker based and are becoming prolific in WvW. Not just one class, not just one style of WvW play but across the board bunkers are becoming the new meta.

As for being new, I have over 3k hours in WvW, have played since beta, am a platinum something, have 6 digits in the kill category (long way from UD though) and I engage in most styles of WvW play including duels, 1v1, skirmish and zerg play although I do roam more than anything else. I haven’t done GvG in a while but that scene sort of died out. I do not claim to be a great player especially at my advanced age as I am closer to dying of old age than being born by a good bit so my reflexes are poor compared to players 30+ years younger than myself.

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“Youre lips are movin and youre complaining about something thats wingeing.”

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Posted by: zinkz.7045

zinkz.7045

I presented my opinion that bunker builds are beginning to dominate in WvW. If that doesn’t may sense to you, I cannot help you understand it any better.

Someone stated that they preferred the current meta to previous thief dominated metas, you then went on about thieves in the current meta, as if that had any relevance to what they said, that is an example of the sort of nonsense you come out with, as is what I quote below.

And no, you didn’t merely claim “bunker” builds dominated the current meta, you QQ’d you couldn’t kill them without focus fire and that you no longer engage them, guess what this is nothing new, if you came up against a d/d cele ele in the last year or so unless you were on a specific class/build or they were terrible you would not kill them, if you came up against many thief or mesmer builds over the course of this game, unless you were on something that could burst them down very fast, or they were in the 10% of players who actually stayed to fight if they were losing, then they would simply disengage or reset the fight, same goes for many previous high mobility warrior builds, etc, newsflash – the game is not designed or balanced around smallscale WvW, class balance has always been a joke.

I was pointing out that scrappers and chronos are current meta bunker classes and dominating their area of play including duels, skirmish, 1v1 and in the chrono case has great utility in zergs.

LOL, repeating what you said and ignoring the point, so we’ll try again, when we discussed thief, you claimed it is lacking because of its relatively minor use in large scale, yet when I say exactly the same for say engy that you are whining about, a class that overall has been the least used / least meta in WvW, that is apparently OK and we get nonsense like “WvW is more than one game mode. Scrappers are excellent roamers”, so the same situation as thieves for most of the game (though theives were actully in a better position as they were also commonly used in guild raids/GvG unlike engies), that is known as hypocrisy.

You are rambling on about classes that aren’t current meta.

And? Read what people respond to and actually write, when talkign about thief I was referring to a point made by someone comparing metas, I’m not sure why this is so difficult for you to grasp.

As for being new, I have over 3k hours in WvW, have played since beta, am a platinum something, have 6 digits in the kill category (long way from UD though) and I engage in most styles of WvW play including duels, 1v1, skirmish and zerg play although I do roam more than anything else. I haven’t done GvG in a while but that scene sort of died out. I do not claim to be a great player especially at my advanced age as I am closer to dying of old age than being born by a good bit so my reflexes are poor compared to players 30+ years younger than myself.

Yet you apparently have not worked out that they balance this game on PvP and more recently PvE raids as well, and not WvW, and that the meta for smallscale in WvW has always been a result of that, has never been even vaguely balanced in any way, and will only change when they balance for PvP next.

P.S – And really there is no current meta for smallscale as it is only marginally less dead than GvG, and the entire game mode is on life support.

(edited by zinkz.7045)

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Posted by: salarasul.4190

salarasul.4190

Gw2 is and will always bea buy to play game, elite specs are ment to be stronger than not normal ones. jus tbecause you have to buy the game dosen’t make it pay2win.

btw. i am playing a full sustain reaper and the reason why i am able to kill 3 ppl at one is cuz they run mindless zerg build who are meant to tag bobys only.

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Posted by: Alloy.2839

Alloy.2839

In war there is no second place winner, and militaries around the world will pay huge premiums for small advantages. True, in WvW we do have second and third place winners, or losers depending on your point of view. So the advantages of elites can be construed as P2W, or as Straegen calls it Pay4SubstantiallyStrongerBuilds. However since ANet gives away the base game, and needs to pay its bills and employees, I have no problem with this. Just buy the expansion and run that build yourself. Or wait for the elites to be nerfed, they will eventually be. I own HoT and have elites unlocked on all my characters. Even so I still play my necro as a necro.

That is the WORST ideal i have head when it comes to war. Often there not first places in wars. NO one get out of a war unharmed or uncharged and no one comply wins at them. Only history books make it out that way becuse its way to hard to tell something complex as “wining” a war in just a few pages or even in words.

Are you saying that you doubt the sanity, the efficacy, or the reality of my reference? I was only referring to the reality of that doctrine. The efficacy or sanity points would be a political discussion, and I have had enough of those to avoid them.

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Posted by: hypehype.9047

hypehype.9047

sounds like a salty thief can’t get their cheap gank kills anymore

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Posted by: Jski.6180

Jski.6180

In war there is no second place winner, and militaries around the world will pay huge premiums for small advantages. True, in WvW we do have second and third place winners, or losers depending on your point of view. So the advantages of elites can be construed as P2W, or as Straegen calls it Pay4SubstantiallyStrongerBuilds. However since ANet gives away the base game, and needs to pay its bills and employees, I have no problem with this. Just buy the expansion and run that build yourself. Or wait for the elites to be nerfed, they will eventually be. I own HoT and have elites unlocked on all my characters. Even so I still play my necro as a necro.

That is the WORST ideal i have head when it comes to war. Often there not first places in wars. NO one get out of a war unharmed or uncharged and no one comply wins at them. Only history books make it out that way becuse its way to hard to tell something complex as “wining” a war in just a few pages or even in words.

Are you saying that you doubt the sanity, the efficacy, or the reality of my reference? I was only referring to the reality of that doctrine. The efficacy or sanity points would be a political discussion, and I have had enough of those to avoid them.

Well not a political point of view its that war is a type of ideal exchange that involve death and fighting no one comes out of it as a complete winier and often no one complete loses.

Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA

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Posted by: draugris.9872

draugris.9872

[quote=5880947;salarasul.4190:]

Mondsucht [MS] – Kodash

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Posted by: draugris.9872

draugris.9872

Gw2 is and will always bea buy to play game, elite specs are ment to be stronger than not normal ones.

Which is true and makes it a perfect description for p2w. If one time builds for every profession without elite specs will be perfectly viable and elite specs will count in for variety and not as a must have, then we can let this term go. Arenanet they betrayed their own principles with hot, it´s a shame tbh.

Mondsucht [MS] – Kodash