Guild Wars 2

Waffler.1257:

Nick.6972:

Why I quit playing Healway Guard:
Even though I have 3.3K armor, nearly 1.3k Healing, running shouts with Pure Of Voice and have Absolute Resolution trait on, I still can’t deal with all the insane condition spaming.
You cleanse 3, 4 new are applied. And you can’t effectively outheal the condition damage.

Healway guard is one of the strongest builds to fight against condi-heavy classes. You sound like one of those players that blows all your condi clears on something stupid like a single stack of bleed or a short duration weakness.

Play the build and then talk.
You don’t even have enough DPS to kill Condition Tanks if you’re running Healway (3.3K, 1.2k build).

It’s much easier to kill Condition builds running semi-zerk Meditation Guard.

Reverence.6915:

DeWolfe.2174:

Diamond Skin say’s, “hi”

No self respecting ele will take diamond skin while roaming. It’s in a horrible trait line that needs you to sacrifice basically all your DPS and boon application.

My condi ele says hi

I suppose people see the biggest issue with, say, getting nailed with 20 stacks of torment in mere seconds + bleeding + poison from some builds, is that it’s impossible to cleanse those before you’re dead. There are very few options to mitigate condition damage, those being running rune of hoelbrak or similar + -40% condition duration food, Berserker’s Stance, and… well I can’t think of many others to drop conditions on their own at fast rate. I run a sword/warhorn and axe/mace build with quick breathing and cleansing ire, and I realize that if I ended up stuck in that situation I’d never be able to cleanse those conditions before they killed me, even using both warhorn skills (they each take a second to activate) and landing a burst right off the bat. The burst would have to one-shot them even, or I’m done -- they’d put those stacks right back up.

Being that there is very little defense against condition damage, there’s not much chance you stand against a max pu condi dealer, except getting berserker’s stance up as soon as possible and running the increased stance duration trait.

(From a warrior’s perspective only, I admit. I haven’t used any other class but thief in WvW yet)

Condition builds really get an insane advantage over power builds in WvW:
-They get to wear more defensive gear without sacrificing their damage (Dire/Rabid)
-Condition damage completely ignores armor.
-Their conditions ignore invulnerability once applied.
-Buffing condition duration buffs both damage and crowd control (chilled, crippled, etc) and ability to reduce healing (poison).
—They get ridiculous 40% duration food (equivalent to 8 trait points). That is an insane buff and power builds have no equivalent (they’re food buffs are only equivalent to 2 trait points).
-Condition damage can ignore both weakness and protection (while not benefiting from vulnerability stacks, however)
-Crit Damage was recently nerfed in PvE/WvW so they even deal more damage now relative to power/crit builds.
-They don’t have to constantly attack to still be dealing damage.

Some of these advantages are fine, since condition builds should be unique from power builds, but it’s definitely a little unbalanced right now. Frankly, I think the 40% condition duration food needs to be reduced to 10%. Think about it, a 40% duration buff to ALL conditions is crazy over powered. If people want higher condition duration food, Anet should just add higher duration food that only buffs specific conditions such as burning, bleeding, fear, etc, perhaps by 20-25%.

Nick.6972:

Waffler.1257:

Nick.6972:

Why I quit playing Healway Guard:
Even though I have 3.3K armor, nearly 1.3k Healing, running shouts with Pure Of Voice and have Absolute Resolution trait on, I still can’t deal with all the insane condition spaming.
You cleanse 3, 4 new are applied. And you can’t effectively outheal the condition damage.

Healway guard is one of the strongest builds to fight against condi-heavy classes. You sound like one of those players that blows all your condi clears on something stupid like a single stack of bleed or a short duration weakness.

Play the build and then talk.
You don’t even have enough DPS to kill Condition Tanks if you’re running Healway (3.3K, 1.2k build).

It’s much easier to kill Condition builds running semi-zerk Meditation Guard.

I’ve played healway guard plenty, that’s how I know you’re bad.

I lol’d.

10/10 would laugh again.

1 thing about roaming is knowing when and where to fight. Every class has a weakness, make them chase you until you are able to exploit their weakness and fight them then.

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

I suppose people see the biggest issue with, say, getting nailed with 20 stacks of torment in mere seconds + bleeding + poison from some builds, is that it’s impossible to cleanse those before you’re dead. There are very few options to mitigate condition damage, those being running rune of hoelbrak or similar + -40% condition duration food, Berserker’s Stance, and… well I can’t think of many others to drop conditions on their own at fast rate. I run a sword/warhorn and axe/mace build with quick breathing and cleansing ire, and I realize that if I ended up stuck in that situation I’d never be able to cleanse those conditions before they killed me, even using both warhorn skills (they each take a second to activate) and landing a burst right off the bat. The burst would have to one-shot them even, or I’m done -- they’d put those stacks right back up.

Being that there is very little defense against condition damage, there’s not much chance you stand against a max pu condi dealer, except getting berserker’s stance up as soon as possible and running the increased stance duration trait.

(From a warrior’s perspective only, I admit. I haven’t used any other class but thief in WvW yet)

Maybe you need some inspiration https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bOzL65jbWA

Huh and as a power necro roamer, Condi builds are just food while lolburst Thief and Hambow warriors ruin my day. Does that make them OP?

I can eat boon classes as well with a well timed shivers or corrupt boon, does that mean I am OP?

Could it be that some classes in WvW roaming (which as people point out, is not balanced) just straight up beat other classes/specs?

I think all you “condi spam” crybabies should go rolls a condition class and see what it feels like to get face stomped by a well played Warrior or Guard.

Only class I really feel bad for in WvW is Ranger… those dudes get no love at all.

vincecontix.1264:

Ark Bladesteele.2943:

I suppose people see the biggest issue with, say, getting nailed with 20 stacks of torment in mere seconds + bleeding + poison from some builds, is that it’s impossible to cleanse those before you’re dead. There are very few options to mitigate condition damage, those being running rune of hoelbrak or similar + -40% condition duration food, Berserker’s Stance, and… well I can’t think of many others to drop conditions on their own at fast rate. I run a sword/warhorn and axe/mace build with quick breathing and cleansing ire, and I realize that if I ended up stuck in that situation I’d never be able to cleanse those conditions before they killed me, even using both warhorn skills (they each take a second to activate) and landing a burst right off the bat. The burst would have to one-shot them even, or I’m done -- they’d put those stacks right back up.

Being that there is very little defense against condition damage, there’s not much chance you stand against a max pu condi dealer, except getting berserker’s stance up as soon as possible and running the increased stance duration trait.

(From a warrior’s perspective only, I admit. I haven’t used any other class but thief in WvW yet)

Maybe you need some inspiration https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bOzL65jbWA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxwOkoeUK3M

Great vids, and by no means did I ever say that I can’t roam or repeatedly get destroyed roaming, but neither vid has anything to do with the topic of condi pu builds. As for the first, I’ve used shield as an alternative to mace (shield bash is pretty great and the blocking is awesome for quick escapes), but I’ve found my preference falling on mace’s tremor to keep people from getting away from me (1200 range on that with multiple target knockdown is pretty nice with the same recharge as bash).

I feel I’m pretty good at roaming with only occasional mishaps. I use sword for leap/immobilizes/final thrust (same damage as eviscerate at <50%) and eviscerate is a fantastic dropper itself due to the lunge. I haven’t enjoyed GS much, although it definitely has its utility in damage — I prefer to rely on my axe and fast AA crits/eviscerates + final thrust for max damage, throw axe and sword leap for immobilizes (leg specialist) and warhorn for the weakness and condition cleanse.

Everyone’s got their own way of winning, and while those vids show some great wins, nobody is ever going to win every duel every time. There are simply some instances where you run into a player that is equipped to deal with your build specifically, or, simply a better player.

I doubt anyone makes epic videos of their roaming adventures that end in them getting stomped.

edit: on finishing the second vid, that’s remarkably similar to how I roam, although I’ve never used precise signet as a way to max adrenaline immediately. That’s a pretty good one.

I run a condi build on my engie and with full stacks can do over 2000 points in condition damage. 1v1 he can hold his own and usually come out ahead against most other classes but 2 hammer warriors can keep him locked down and destroy him before he even has the opportunity to use any of his skills. Necros can be a pain if they transfer the conditions back. So in effect I would argue that some power builds such as a hammer warrior are op and should be nerfed and necros as well!

Theftwind.8976:

I run a condi build on my engie and with full stacks can do over 2000 points in condition damage. 1v1 he can hold his own and usually come out ahead against most other classes but 2 hammer warriors can keep him locked down and destroy him before he even has the opportunity to use any of his skills. Necros can be a pain if they transfer the conditions back. So in effect I would argue that some power builds such as a hammer warrior are op and should be nerfed and necros as well!

Squads or duos of hammer warriors should terrify anyone.

Yes because anyone who complains about condi spam in small fights never play a condi build.

/rollseyes

Condi warrior, condi P/D thief, condi mesmer, Grenade kit/Bomb kit engi.
These builds need to be toned down.

So what you’re saying is, viable condi builds?

Eviscera.9703:

Condi warrior, condi P/D thief, condi mesmer, Grenade kit/Bomb kit engi.
These builds need to be toned down.

Or… you could try and learn how to beat them. Maybe you can work on a counter build for a few of those.

Everyone is so quick to demand the nerf bat for anything they can’t faceroll :/

Yep condi thiefs probably the most over powered thing in this game, even with condi cleanses all they have to do is stealth wait a few seconds to regen their health and come back applying the kitten loads of condis all over again.

gennyt.3428:

Ragnar.4257:

…

Don’t expect to be able to just take all their conditions and then cleanse/heal through it. Conditions are the same as direct damage -> the only effective counter is to avoid it completely. Same as Killshot. Same as MindWrack. Same as Dragons Tooth. Same as Whirling Wrath. Same as Backstab.

…

-Kill shot you can see coming(running KS on a War in a small fight is like painting a giant bullseye on your back)
-Mind Wrack you can see coming(Clones running towards me? Gee what’s going to happen?)
-Dragon’s Tooth you can see coming (there’s a giant, flaming fang dripping lava on your head!)
-Who complains about whirling Whirling Wrath? lols
- Backstab was problematic, I would fully agree with you on that, you really had to just guess and dodge or pop a block or something.

Anyways, see where I’m going with this? They are not equal. Moving on.

Grenades – massive pile of red circles, cluster of flashing grenades slowly flying through the air

Bombs – obvious circles on the ground

Illusionary Counter (the only ‘burst’ a condi mes has) – mesmer stands there mysteriously doing nothing, and then blocks. Very easily evaded even if you hit the block (hint, there is a short window between the block and the torment where you can evade).

Confusing Images – massive purple beam

Thief Pistol-Venom burst – all the venom buffs appear on his boon bar, often coincides with Thieves Guild, or an unusually long period in stealth.

Necro Marks – evil green flashing circle on floor

Signet of Spite – do you even have eyes?

Deathshroud/Plague – ????

You see where I’m going with this? Many of the hardest hitting condition skills have just as obvious telegraphs as power skills.

Some people have just learnt to pay attention to them, while others refuse to and would rather QQ instead.

Dodging a venom-unload from a thief is just the same as dodging a hammer-chain from a warrior. The signs are there for you to read. If you fail to read it, you get destroyed. If you read it properly, they’ll just be flailing in the air.

If you’re facing a condi Mes and get loaded up with 5 stacks of torment, 10 stacks of confusion, 10 stacks of bleed, cripple and vulnerability, that isn’t the Mes being OP. It’s you being bad.

I can’t remember the last time I met a solo ele, roaming.

There is probably a reason for that.

In s/tPvP, having more than 1-2 condi bunkers is disastrous for your team. Yet, in WvW roaming they destroy pretty much any spec out there. How come?

How I see it, the main problem as in why conditions are broken in WvW roaming, yet somewhat lackluster in competitive PvP, is the differences between the set-ups in the two gamenodes. In PvP, you are set with certain restrictions, whereas in WvW you run with PvE rules. Meaning, in WvW you can have foods, dire gear and Perplexity runes. Those are the things that really make a difference.

Condi bunkers in itself aren’t all that strong, but their buffs (mainly looking at +40% foods) and gear are what makes them completely over the top in WvW. Being able to get more Condition duration out of a food thab an entire trait line? That’s like having +40% critical damage foods available. Being able to trait only one stat on the offensive? That’s like having pure power builds (warriors excluded) actually viable. Perplexity Runes? Cheese with little room for counter-play, since most heals don’t even cleanse confusion.

These are all what make the condi bunkers strong as of now imo. No need to nerf Y when the real problem is X.

/my2cents

One of the issues with the condi meta is that you can get +70% condi duration without using a single point in the trait line or rune. The highest counter would be melandru + lemongrass and that gives you -65% and you are forcing yourself to use melandru runes.

Let us not kid ourselves that putting conditions is such a tough task. With 9s sigil procs (doom/hydromancy/geomancy) and on crit sigils (torment/fire) and runes designed to provide conditions when you are hit, heal, interrupt or a combination of those actions; placing conditions and stacking them due to broken food/toxic crystal/giver duration buffs is trivial. Note, everything I just mentioned doesn’t even include any skills, utilities, elites or traits.

There needs to be an equilibrium between the buffs and the counter. Either lower the duration from food/toxic crystals/giver buffs (14 traits points on condi duration and+170 condi dmg…. on just buffs, really?) or provide a “cleansing oil/weapon” that can lower condition duration on an equal playing field as those nourishment/weapons today without forcing to go into melandru.

Reverence.6915:

Dire gear… burst them to death? when they have 3k toughness and over 25k hp? …

3k toughness? Uhuh, sure….

Ritt.3069:

In s/tPvP, having more than 1-2 condi bunkers is disastrous for your team. Yet, in WvW roaming they destroy pretty much any spec out there. How come?

having ANY “condition bunker” is very bad for your team in wvw as well. in a 3-5 man team if you have someone playing a tanky spec that only deals condition damage, he is utterly useless for the group, unless it’s a corrupt+epi necro or a venom share thief. if you go tanky you need to have a reason for it, like group healing/boons/cc/cleanses/converts.
the only reason you can have a couple of them in spvp its because they just need to stand on a point and do kitten all but stand on it spaming, a useless thing to do in wvw.

the best part about threads like this is that there’s this idea that dire+conditions is the ultimate thing for roamers, which makes more players go for it and be absolute free kills in wvw. but it doesnt even matter, because in a 1v1 they’ll last for slightly longer giving them the ilusion of being better than before.

also, as someone who plays an elementalist now and then, drop the signet, use ether renewal?

People still use signet?

I was on my staff ele last night and was killed by a thief, warrior and mesmer- so obviously those classes need nerfing as I was unable to faceroll them./sarcasm

Actually the best part was when 25 viz chased me for a couple of minutes before they managed to kill me..huge win for me as it pulled them away from what we were actually doing:-)

Nothing wrong with condi builds, they are designed to do a job. Learn to counter, and learn which ones you are not built for and get away,

Dire is indeed a problem. Cond force you to build to counter it if you wanna play a pow build yourself while Dire is max dmg and max tank for a condi class at the same time. Introduce Pow/Prec or Fer major, Tough/Vit minor gear (like cele but with the 3 stat gear values) and 400 stat power food (300 pow/100 fero would be nice). Gogogo.

Ritt.3069:

Being able to get more Condition duration out of a food thab an entire trait line? That’s like having +40% critical damage foods available.

It’s not.

Empyre.2531:

Dire is indeed a problem. Cond force you to build to counter it if you wanna play a pow build yourself while Dire is max dmg and max tank for a condi class at the same time. Introduce Pow/Prec or Fer major, Tough/Vit minor gear (like cele but with the 3 stat gear values) and 400 stat power food (300 pow/100 fero would be nice). Gogogo.

PVT in a power build does more dps than dire in a cond build…

For classes that have on crit cond procs rabid will out damage dire.

The ignorance in this thread is astounding.

Aberrant.6749:

Empyre.2531:

Dire is indeed a problem. Cond force you to build to counter it if you wanna play a pow build yourself while Dire is max dmg and max tank for a condi class at the same time. Introduce Pow/Prec or Fer major, Tough/Vit minor gear (like cele but with the 3 stat gear values) and 400 stat power food (300 pow/100 fero would be nice). Gogogo.

PVT in a power build does more dps than dire in a cond build…

For classes that have on crit cond procs rabid will out damage dire.

The ignorance in this thread is astounding.

I absolutely agree with you. Posters seem to make a lot of claims about gear and the damage that comes from it, yet have no actual knowledge of it. It is as if the simply regurgitate statements from other threads they read, rather then think for them selves and actual fact check something.

Reverence.6915:

Like I said in the OP “It’s not the conditions themselves”. It’s the fact that you can stack more than you can cleanse. There’s no way to counter-play that when they’re full bunker too. Any power build, same class, will lose to an equally skilled condi bunker build because of its “safeness”. Just sit back and apply conditions putting out slightly less DPS than a power build but take much less damage than power build too.

If you’re going for a power build, you have to sacrifice a lot of sustain in order to balance sustainability and DPS. It’s not necessary with a condi build and that’s the problem.

The word you are looking for is dire.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Ok now we are getting somewhere. So condition builds are fine, you are saying the problem is Dire gear. Dire gear does scale better than power build gear in the offense/defense ratio.

The tradeoff is condition duration and bleeds/burn on crit that all condition specs get. This means they get much fewer stacks/duration.

However Anet decided that there should be 40% condition duration food, but no condition duration gear. No idea why they thought that was a good idea. Hint: It wasn’t. So the “sacrifice” they need to make is minimal at best.

A constructive solution would be to remove condition duration food and add in condition duration gear. Which as a condition user I would support. This would make tankier dire geared players have condition burst with some defense, but lower overall dps, while allowing condition users to have a zerker, high dps low defense type gear.

I like this idea, pls get a job at Anet.

@Aberrant.6749
PVT in a power build does more dps than dire in a cond build…
For classes that have on crit cond procs rabid will out damage dire.
The ignorance in this thread is astounding.

I have yet to see full soldiers kill full dire in 1 vs 1, that’s considering same skill lvl of course. Only some condi is applied on crit, most condi applications don’t need any precision.

I see the problem here, you are complaining about solo play in a team based setting, get a group, get some aoe cleanses, stop being bad, play wvw as wvw, not 1v1 roaming stupidity, go play in obsidian sanctum if you dont want to help your server.

pierwola.9602:

Ritt.3069:

Being able to get more Condition duration out of a food thab an entire trait line? That’s like having +40% critical damage foods available.

It’s not.

Condition duration acquired via traits; +30%
Via food; 40%

Critical damage acquired via traitline pre-patch; +30%
Via food; +10%
And now it’s even less after the ferocity change.

You find this reasonable? The condi duration foods would be perfectly balanced if it was a +15/20% buff. +40% is such a drastic number that it really shows in fights where your opponent doesn’t run -40%. A lot of builds revolve around this food option, which should never be the case; the foods should be a small addition rather than a crutch to rely on.

Fyi; I don’t usually even have issues with condi classes, but this food-issue is something that needs to be addressed balance-wise. And it’s not just the condi duration foods, there are several other broken variants as well, such as the might on dodge and +40% endurance regen foods. Would do the game mode a world of good if food could only be run in pve.

No class/build should have great damage AND be bunker. Condi bunkers should have to trade toughness/vitality to keep the condi damage up.

Condi damage needs to route through toughness just like direct damage so it can be mitigated. With that change they should remove the condition stack limit and condi removal should remove the effect but not the damage component. Essentially make condition damage a damage over time. This solves the uselessness of condi damage in PvE and adjusts the ridiculous condi-bunker builds currently running.

Use frigging condi spec if you wanna have some pillow fights, play real www, l2p or stop whining.

Khezekiah Bellamy.5016:

I see the problem here, you are complaining about solo play in a team based setting, get a group, get some aoe cleanses, stop being bad, play wvw as wvw, not 1v1 roaming stupidity, go play in obsidian sanctum if you dont want to help your server.

This – even if you want to solo there is only one class that is difficult to deal with in regards to condi and that class has crap for stability- the rest is L2dodge or just play as a team. Guardians make condi trivial as long as the other players around you aren’t bad players.

Gilburt.9146:

-They get to wear more defensive gear without sacrificing their damage (Dire/Rabid)

More defensive gear is needed, in order to have the condition damage deal the damage. As far as I am aware, the more offensive condition damage builds (I run one of them on my necro) have only around 2.4-2.5k armor. While this is more than glass, it is not a bunker either and can in deed be bursted.

-Condition damage completely ignores armor.

That is the point of condition damage.

-Their conditions ignore invulnerability once applied.

As same as direct damage. Invulnerability stops you from applying conditions as well es direct damage. Once there is no invulnerability, the condition is applied, as well as the whole load of direct damage. Only difference, condition can still be cleansed, while the direct damage can’t be.

-Buffing condition duration buffs both damage and crowd control (chilled, crippled, etc) and ability to reduce healing (poison).

That is correct.

-They get ridiculous 40% duration food (equivalent to 8 trait points). That is an insane buff and power builds have no equivalent (they’re food buffs are only equivalent to 2 trait points).

Agreed, that is indeed ridiculous.

-Condition damage can ignore both weakness and protection (while not benefiting from vulnerability stacks, however)

You say it. However, equivalent to protection is in my eyes the condition cleanse. Both prevent damage.

-Crit Damage was recently nerfed in PvE/WvW so they even deal more damage now relative to power/crit builds.

While technically true, I have not seen so much of a damage nerf in practice on my power builds.

-They don’t have to constantly attack to still be dealing damage.

Technically true. However, you show a common misconception. While direct damage is applied instantly, condition damage needs time. One attack of condition damage equals one attack of direct damage. However, the condition still ticks after the attack. Making it possible to cleanse.

Some of these advantages are fine, since condition builds should be unique from power builds, but it’s definitely a little unbalanced right now. Frankly, I think the 40% condition duration food needs to be reduced to 10%. Think about it, a 40% duration buff to ALL conditions is crazy over powered. If people want higher condition duration food, Anet should just add higher duration food that only buffs specific conditions such as burning, bleeding, fear, etc, perhaps by 20-25%.

Yep, I agree with that completely and would support such a change.

Sorry for eating your zerker.

I only meet thieves and warriors while roaming. I’d like to meet someone with a condition build.

It’s great when I roam on my engi in a powernade spec, and people burn all their dodges to avoid rifle shots…then I blow them up with grenades. Honestly, you can easily avoid grenades by just moving around, and most mediocre engi’s will miss you. However, if you’re a melee class and get in their face, the engi has the advantage. They know where you will be, and can easily throw down a lot of condis. One of the current metas is to run power nade, so you get the condi damage, plus the grenades hit like a mack truck. If I run that build, in zerker gear, with sigil of fire and air with ~50% crit chance, the grenades do a lot of damage if the player is just trying to stand still and dps me. Grenade/bomb builds have easy, clear counters, ESPECIALLY if you’re a mesmer or a high mobility class or a range class that moves. Grenades chew people up who don’t move and dps, and bombs kill people who get in the engi’s face and just try to roll their face on their keyboard hitting skills. Grenades are projectiles, which can be reflected, or dodged, and seen when thrown. Just keep your distance and you’ll be fine.

Ritt.3069:

+40% crit dmg: guaranteed dmg boost
+40% condi duration: condi cleans (try it in mass pvp and you will see how awesome is to have +% condi duration stats)

Yes, +40% duration food is more reasonable than +40% crit dmg food.
+ 15% condi duration food ? OK, but first remove – % condi duration food from the game.

Reverence.6915:

Condi needs a serious nerf in WvW. It’s ridiculous that some classes can apply more conditions than you can cleanse, basically killing you in less than 5 seconds. There’s so few ways to counter play that and all of them involve a battle of attrition, which isn’t fun.

It’s not so much the individual conditions themselves, but the combination of several conditions together. Confusion by itself is fine. Torment by itself is fine etc. But Bleed, Confusion, Poison, Vulnerability, Weakness etc etc. all applied at the same time is stupid. Especially with the randomness of cleansing and the ease of re-applying the conditions (seriously needs to be an icd on conditions like confusion and torment, say… 30 seconds, in line with most cleanse skills)

Yeah yeah, this has been talked to death and several threads have been made about it, but even so, we need to keep complaining about this until it gets fixed.

This is funny considering I have quit the game entirely over the meta issues, but the real funny thing is that I didn’t quit over condi damage, I quit over white damage. That’s right, the white damage caused me to quit and many many others, maybe we’re just less vocal on the forums. You haven’t quit yet, so your problem is obviously less of a problem then ours.

Specifically, white damage in the GWEN meta and the zerker PvE meta is what did it for me. I don’t like dinky little skirmishes, I like big epic battles, and just got too sick and tired of playing my war, guard and necro, have an ele too but I don’t enjoy the playstyle at all.

So I have a question for you, what would you nerf, how would you balance the white damage in the GWEN meta so that all professions are usefull ?

And no, the recent changes are not enough, after whole ferocity and new traits went live, I logged back in for a day, logged off. All those changes put together are but a drop of water in an ocean of what is needed.

I kinda come to check forums to see if anything has changed these and also to see if the WvW game overall has become less stale and what if anything has been done about the coverage gaps, but it seems all my hopes are in vein.

Condition builds are overpowered and will continue to be so for one major reason, it only takes 2 stats (Condition damage and Condition duration) to maximize damage output. All other direct damage takes 3 stats, Power, Precision and Ferocity.

To further exacerbate, both of the above damage types have the same equipment/build stat weighting but yet Condition duration has this wonderful +40% food and many classes have specific condition duration boosts for specific conditions (i.e. +50% bleed duration, +33% confusion duration, etc.) Power-based builds only have a few (and usually very conditional) Critical Chance increase traits.

Because condition damage/condition duration is only two stats, builds automatically have room for condition duration/proc condition damage type traits in other lines.

Three routes to fix and all may be needed;
1. Condition damage needs to rely on a 3rd and/or 4th stat factor. Fix would be an across the board nerf to base condition damage and a need to have Precision/Ferocity “crit” the tick of condition damage to bring it back inline with average condition damage as it is now. This then makes builds rely on more than a two areas of focus for maximum damage.

2. If we back up in GW2 history, the real tipping point was when Might stacking gave condition damage increase besides a Power increase. However, two large changes were missed when this change happened. Protection boon still only affects against direct damage and Weakness condition only affects against direct damage. If ANet wanted to fix, Weakness condition would nerf condition damage output by ~25% and a boon like Vigor (not Protection) would also reduce the reduce the damage taken from conditions as well by say ~33%.

3. Nerf the 3-5 stack immediate condition abilities to 1/2 per application and then lower the cooldowns on those abilities/runes. Condition damage burst is a HUGE issue because getting 10+ stacks of some conditions or a take this multi-condition type damage is literally just a button spam away. So low skill level = so bad for longevity/balance of the game.

Sigil of Int Cav Warriors.

frans.8092:

Reverence.6915:

Dire gear… burst them to death? when they have 3k toughness and over 25k hp? …

3k toughness? Uhuh, sure….

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fZAQNAqYFmgmo4uGWhZw7rIM2QtCAA-TlBZwAi0CcSXQR1fkv/AMlgAU+FAABYmlZAMexLexLexzMn5Mn5MnZpAgYZF-w

Okay.

Artaz.3819:

Condition builds are overpowered and will continue to be so for one major reason, it only takes 2 stats (Condition damage and Condition duration) to maximize damage output. All other direct damage takes 3 stats, Power, Precision and Ferocity.

Yea you are right, all direct damage.

To further exacerbate, both of the above damage types have the same equipment/build stat weighting but yet Condition duration has this wonderful +40% food and many classes have specific condition duration boosts for specific conditions (i.e. +50% bleed duration, +33% confusion duration, etc.) Power-based builds only have a few (and usually very conditional) Critical Chance increase traits.

Necro
Power: Death Embranse, Furious Demise, Spiteful Marks, Axe Training, Training of the Master, Close to Death, Target the Weak, Deadly Strenght, Blood to Power, Strength of Undeath, Deathly Perception
Condi: Hemophilia, Lingering Curse, Master of Terror (Terror),

Artaz.3819:

If we back up in GW2 history, the real tipping point was when Might stacking gave condition damage increase besides a Power increase. However, two large changes were missed when this change happened. Protection boon still only affects against direct damage and Weakness condition only affects against direct damage.

Vulnerability: condition which increases damage the target takes by 1% for each stack, up to a maximum of 25 times.

CyRuS.6915:

Eviscera.9703:

Condi warrior, condi P/D thief, condi mesmer, Grenade kit/Bomb kit engi.
These builds need to be toned down.

Or… you could try and learn how to beat them. Maybe you can work on a counter build for a few of those.

Everyone is so quick to demand the nerf bat for anything they can’t faceroll :/

So you’re saying you want a rock paper scissors type of balance?
Have you ever met a scepter/torch + staff Condi mesmer in WvW? You won’t stand a chance. If you havn’t, i would be glad to duel you with my mesmer.

I solo roam on condi necro build with perplex/terrormancer/dumfire build and it’s only cuz I feel like the necro an his condi is the only class able to keep up with PU mesmers and groups of 2-3 thieves trying to gank… under any other class on a power build an im sure PU mesmers and the gajillion thieves would slughter me.

>>One of the issues with the condi meta is that you can get +70% condi duration without using a single point in the trait line or rune. The highest counter would be melandru + lemongrass and that gives you -65% and you are forcing yourself to use melandru runes.

If a condition is 10 seconds and one gets 70 percent added duration it now 17 seconds.

If one decreases 17 seconds by 65 percent , that person with a 17 second duration is now left with a 6 second duration. Indeed a condition will not tick the full 6 times.

Thus when measuring raw seconds and damage done a 65 duration decrease beats a 70 percent duration increase.

Indeed if a duration was increased by 100 percent so that same 10 second condition became 20 seconds , Melandru and lemon grass soup would cut off more seconds of ticks then was gained by veggie pizza and the use of sigils or a toxic consumable.

The person using melandru or lemongrass poultry soup did not have to train in any traits to get those benefits.

babazhook.6805:

>>One of the issues with the condi meta is that you can get +70% condi duration without using a single point in the trait line or rune. The highest counter would be melandru + lemongrass and that gives you -65% and you are forcing yourself to use melandru runes.

If a condition is 10 seconds and one gets 70 percent added duration it now 17 seconds.

If one decreases 17 seconds by 65 percent , that person with a 17 second duration is now left with a 6 second duration. Indeed a condition will not tick the full 6 times.

Thus when measuring raw seconds and damage done a 65 duration decrease beats a 70 percent duration increase.

Indeed if a duration was increased by 100 percent so that same 10 second condition became 20 seconds , Melandru and lemon grass soup would cut off more seconds of ticks then was gained by veggie pizza and the use of sigils or a toxic consumable.

The person using melandru or lemongrass poultry soup did not have to train in any traits to get those benefits.

You missed the point where the aggressor didn’t have to train any traits or use any runes to get that 70%, while the person defending had to use runes to get there. Add conditional runes and suddenly that 70% goes up 25% (most conditions at 6 runes give you 25% increase – so that’s 95%…. without any traits). With traits, you can get 125%, which in all honestly is not even needed when making a condi build. 70% is more than efficient, however it’s unbalanced when someone can get there without any armor/runes/traits involved.

You do poise an interesting point of discussion if the +/- is based on base or proc.

>>You missed the point where the aggressor didn’t have to train any traits or use any runes to get that 70%, while the person defending had to use runes to get there.

I did not MISS the point at all.

The only way to get 70 percent duration without training is to use SIGILS along with those consumables.

Why do you count sigils as “without any training” but will not count RUNE use when RUNES will decrease by 20 percent without ANY training.

You are setting a double standard. Using Runes of Melandru takes no more training then using a givers weapon or a sigil of malice. Eating lemongrass poultry soup takes no training.

I would point out that in my power builds, I can get power and crit damage without training those traits at all just by the gear and consumables I use. Why is that not an issue?

There are far more trinkets and sigils and runesets that increase crit damage or power then increase condition duration.

That so many people in WvW CHOOSE not to use lemongrass soup or melandru runes suggests to me they do not find condition durations being inflicted by the people eating duration type foods as that big an issue.

In fact as I demonstrated, in relative terms were condition extending consumables and sigils and runes removed along with runes and consumables that decreased durations those in the crowd arguing against conditions would be worse off meaning we would still be having this argument.

babazhook.6805:

>>You missed the point where the aggressor didn’t have to train any traits or use any runes to get that 70%, while the person defending had to use runes to get there.

I did not MISS the point at all.

The only way to get 70 percent duration without training is to use SIGILS along with those consumables.

Why do you count sigils as “without any training” but will not count RUNE use when RUNES will decrease by 20 percent without ANY training.

You are setting a double standard. Using Runes of Melandru takes no more training then using a givers weapon or a sigil of malice. Eating lemongrass poultry soup takes no training.

I would point out that in my power builds, I can get power and crit damage without training those traits at all just by the gear and consumables I use. Why is that not an issue?

That so many people in WvW CHOOSE not to use lemongrass soup or melandru runes suggests to me they do not find condition durations being inflicted by the people hitting duration type foods as that big an issue.

I am not counting SIGIL as part of it.

You can get +70% without any sigils and using 2 giver weapons. As suggested previously, to balance out the +40% food +10% toxic crystal +20% giver (one on main/one on offhand), there should be a -40% food a -10% crytal and a -10% weapon (no double standard).